All you GUN OWNERS...need your advice please

[TexasAggie]

At the risk of sounding like a total amateur and a fool, here goes:

I'm a TOTAL believer in the Second Amendment . But, the way the courts are today, I'm literally in fear of exercising this right/ability to protect myself due to these lunatic leftist judges and DAs. It seems like almost EVERY court case rules in some favor of the criminal, turning THEM into the victim.

Look, I would love to own a firearm, but almost feel "safer" without one so there's no doubt (in a robbery, for example) who the real victim is (me). I just think if I have a gun, my luck would be that I accidently kill someone while defending myself or family. In turn, I'm the one that goes to prison b/c some ass wipe attorney turns it around and makes ME the criminal.

I literally have zero gun experience and was never raised around them (although my whole family supports this right 100%). So, the question is, being that I live in Texas with the right to carry (with a license, of course) are my thoughts above justified, or am I over-analyzing this??

Let's be clear, the only REAL reason we have a gun is to use it. It's designed to kill, and I have no desire to hunt defenseless animals, so what do you guys do with them but mere target practice?? Should I just start taking classes to learn about guns??

Again, I'm turning to you guys b/c you're educated in this field and really want some advice. I read the thread on "Which handguns to buy" which prompted my questions above. All opinions, please!!:pir_flag:

[Konnie the Goat]

There are rules for use of lethal force to defend individuals from harm. Last we covered it in class, louisiana was the only state that allowed leathal force to defend property. Check your local laws.
As far as only being good for defense/hunting, i suppose, but i dont agree. I like to target shoot, its a great stress reliever for me. But started shooting with my dad as a small child, and between him and the military, Ive shot more weapons than i can name. I love it, its a fun hobby, but i lok at the skill (which could possibly be used to defend a loved one) as a benifit, not the reason.

[speeddemon]

If he tries to kill me,and I shoot him then its acceptable...as long as he has a weapon.....little tip...keep a new kitchen knife in the package under your sink....if you shoot an intruder carefully remove the knife and put it in his hand and he has a weapon and was trying to do you harm! :wall: :stickpoke

[Konnie the Goat]

I wouldnt shoot anyone unless i knew he would die. its best to have onlyone story afterwards. The legalities of this stuff is too crazy to risk litigation. I wouldnt so much worry about criminal charges,i its the civil garbage that gets you.

[04IBM GTO]

If there in your house you can kill them....Just put a screw driver in there dead hand to shut there family/attorney up. Away from home with a carry permit you can only shoot if in life/death situation, when I got my PA. carry permit I was told only pull it if your going to use it and then shoot to kill.FYI

[DriveTOOfast]

You are over analyzing things. Definitely, as a law abiding citizen you SHOULD have a firearm & ammunition safely stored in your home to have available during emergencies. 3 or 4 days of no electricity, hurricane, civil unrest; these are all long term possibilities even if things are going nice and smooth in the short term.

Just because you want to get a gun to defend the safety of yourself and your family doesn't mean that you have to get a pistol. Remember that a shotgun is a good defensive weapon in a home situation.
Get a pump shotgun with a reasonably short barrel (about 20" to 22"). I prefer a 20 ga. for lots of good reasons. Load up the tube with bird shot. Don't have any other ammunition accessible to the shotgun as you shouldn't need more than 4 rounds for home defense but do keep a box or two locked up somwhere in case of civil unrest or natural disaster. Get one of those locking cables that goes thru the ejection port. This keeps anybody from "accidentally" putting a round into the chamber because the slide cannot even be racked shut. Keep the key around your neck.
It varies from state to state but since you live in Texas personal defense of yourself and your family is a legitimate legal use of a weapon. You still have responsibilities with respect to allowing children to play with it and accidentally shoot each other so make sure and store the shotgun in a safe manner.

You can go well beyond that with regards to such things as useful items to keep in your "crap hits the fan" kit and training and storage but hopefully you will do some checking into that when you decide what sort of firearm to buy.

[SICKS.OH]

great advice from drive....

go find a gun range that rents firearms. id think most would also offer classes. that should get you off the fence :D. it would also point you in the right direction of what firearm you will purchase.... and you will. ;)

[wolfdogs]

what Drive said. and sign up for an NRA shooting course, or at least one at a local respectable firing range (be carefull, some ranges are dives, and their patrons are rambo-wannabees, loud mouthed and careless.)

[A04GTO]

1) Learn and know your local laws, state laws and federal laws regarding this topic. Go to a book store or local library and pic up a book of your state statutes(laws), don't get your info off the the interweb.

2) Quit watching Law & Order and Court TV.

3) If you decide to purchase a gun practice with it at least once a month and put at least 200 rounds through it each time.

That's my advice, hope it helps you with your decision.

[A04GTO]

4) when you go to purchase a gun take a friend/family member who knows about guns with you. DO NOT buy a gun because it is cheap and seems like a good deal if you do not know what your buying. If your buying a gun for defense you don't want to buy a piece of crap that might not work when it's crunch time.

[mkturtle]

If I was you, I'd spend my money on mods. But in case you really want to get into weapons and home defense is your primary concern, get 18" barrel 12 gauge shotgun... like this FN police packs 7+1 (it takes magnum 3" shells too):
http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/guns_525px/fn_sg_po lice.gif
Once you get your first gun, you'll want a second, a third and there is no end to it….

[in_burrito]

I own several firearms and only own them for self defense purposes. I shoot and organize competitions that are self defense oriented. I am not a hunter, gun collector, target shooter, etc. I attend at least one self defense oriented firearms class a year from nationally known and respected instructors that teach classes to the military and to law enforcement, and I am trying to up that to two a year minimum. I carry a gun every single day that I legally and/or physically can. Why am I saying all this? To make it clear that I take this stuff very seriously.

Do NOT try to cook the scene with knives, screwdrivers, or other TV nonsense. You WILL get caught and it could turn what was a good shoot into you going to prison for a very long time.

If one of your primary concerns is defending your family, it may help to think of it like this. If you had the choice for either you or a member of your family to die, would you chose to die for them? If so, it should be a very easy decision to choose to MAYBE go to jail for them if the kangaroo courts screw you even in a righteous shoot.

As the t-shirt says, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Wolfdogs has it right. Get in touch with the NRA and take their basic class. You may be able to find one that is at a range that rents guns, in which case you won't even have to own a firearm to take the class. The NRA basic handgun class also satisfies the training requirement for a concealed carry permit in many states that have that requirement.

Once you are comfortable with the operation of your firearm, go to www.idpa.com (this is the Texas page (http://www.idpa.com/clublist.asp?state=TX), and this is the page of a major Dallas club (http://www.dallaspistol.com/DAPS/)) and find a club in your area that puts on regular matches. It's not training, but it's better than sitting at the static range and shooting Osama targets, and it's infinitely better than nothing.

[nobdy1977]

There are rules for use of lethal force to defend individuals from harm. Last we covered it in class, Louisiana was the only state that allowed lethal force to defend property.

Florida also and Georgia is working on fixing the problem. IMHO guns should not be used to defend property, but nearly all states allow for the use of deadly force, if you reasonably feel threatened. If you feel that your life or the life of someone in your house is in threat shoot to kill, don't listen to the talk about "dragging them inside your doorway" or "putting something shiny in there hand" just tell the officer "i was in fear for my life," sure they know what the deal was, but it is one less scumbag to deal with.

the big thing is if you use a gun on an intruder you must be fully prepared to kill, and make every effort to do that. If you say you only want to wound them, or scare them off, there is a good chance your gun may be used on you. So if you do it, do it completely.

If a gun makes you feel more secure and you are prepared to use it, if needed, then definitely do it. I bet you will have a lot of fun at the range, learn a lot more about yourself and meet a lot of good people.

[A04GTO]

Do NOT try to cook the scene with knives, screwdrivers, or other TV nonsense. You WILL get caught and it could turn what was a good shoot into you going to prison for a very long time.


(Yoda voice on) To in-burrito you listen, help you it can, save you it will.

[Quiker]

you might find this (http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/public/227.cfm) interesting.

[Scurvy]

The Air Taser is marketed to people like yourself who want self defense but without lethal force being used.

[hardball75006]

Florida also and Georgia is working on fixing the problem. IMHO guns should not be used to defend property, but nearly all states allow for the use of deadly force, if you reasonably feel threatened. If you feel that your life or the life of someone in your house is in threat shoot to kill, don't listen to the talk about "dragging them inside your doorway" or "putting something shiny in there hand" just tell the officer "i was in fear for my life," sure they know what the deal was, but it is one less scumbag to deal with.

the big thing is if you use a gun on an intruder you must be fully prepared to kill, and make every effort to do that. If you say you only want to wound them, or scare them off, there is a good chance your gun may be used on you. So if you do it, do it completely.

If a gun makes you feel more secure and you are prepared to use it, if needed, then definitely do it. I bet you will have a lot of fun at the range, learn a lot more about yourself and meet a lot of good people.

In Texas you can use deadly force to protect your personal property after dark.

[J.E.T.]

Using a firearm is like using karate.......you have to have the mental ability to pull it off. Also, anyone desperate enough to break into your home is desperate enough to do anything to get away, including taking your life. Just be aware of the consequences of confrontation and use your common sense. If it's easier to let 'em escape, let 'em go. Not worth the "angst" of wounding or killing someone, let alone the legal implications. A gun is a tool and in the right hands it is effective. In the wrong (inexperienced) hands it could be the end of your life and not theirs........Go to a shooting range, take several courses and rent the guns they have there to see what works for your needs. Only a military stint or law enforcement job will really prepare you mentally......believe me, I have both.

JET

[mkturtle]

Or just get a big dog... German Sheppard for example would die to defend its owner. Very protective and well behaved dog, but needs a lots of love and work too.

[A04GTO]

Or just get a big dog... German Sheppard for example would die to defend its owner. Very protective and well behaved dog, but needs a lots of love and work too.
Once the intruder kills your dog then what do you do?

[in_burrito]

Only a military stint or law enforcement job will really prepare you mentally
Mentally possibly, but unfortunately not mechanically. Without fail most LE and Mil folks I've encountered have been very dissapointing in terms of marksmanship and firearms handling. If I were a cop it would truly frighten me to know the (low) level of training and ability of the officer that might be backing me up in a violent confrontation.

[Ls1bluebird]

I wouldnt shoot anyone unless i knew he would die. its best to have onlyone story afterwards. The legalities of this stuff is too crazy to risk litigation. I wouldnt so much worry about criminal charges,i its the civil garbage that gets you.
I agree...
If my life is threatened by someone else, I would shoot to kill.
Dead people don't sue and one story is best, couldn't have said it better myself

[Napalm]

I recently got my permit in Mississippi. I paid extra and took the self defense class that was taught be a lawyer who also shoots. Not only did we cover tactics, but we spent a whole day going over the laws.

You really need to know the laws to your advantage in your state. If things aren't clear ask a defense attorney or judge.

ALso know the reciprocity laws and how they apply to your actions in another state. find a reputable NRA shooting club, most of them will have a defensive handgun class or can tell you where to go. If all else fails ask the police, that's how I found the class I went to.

Good Luck.

[mkturtle]

Once the intruder kills your dog then what do you do?

Unlikely to happen. If intruder is not after you, he'll leave when attacked by the dog. If intruder is after your life, than you better have backup of a big cal.

[in_burrito]

Unlikely to happen. If intruder is not after you, he'll leave when attacked by the dog. If intruder is after your life, than you better have backup of a big cal.
That's actually untrue. Ask a SWAT cop how many raids they've been on with "bad dogs" in the house and ask them how many times the dog has attacked them vs. run and hid under the sofa.

I also know of at least one case where a burglar kicked in a front door, and when the rottie that lived there jumped at his face the burglar caught him by the throat, slammed him into the wall, and choked him to death.

While I personally think that having a dog is one part of the home/self defense equation it most certainly isn't the whole solution.

[BRN2ROLL]

In Texas you do have the right to use deadly force after dark to protect your personal property (as mentioned above), if you're worried about "killing" someone you can purchase non-lethal rounds from your gun dealer that will make the perp wish he was dead after you hit him with a couple. Don't take your familys' safety for granted, someone breaks in what are you gonna do? Throw your pillow at him/them??

[A04GTO]

Unlikely to happen. If intruder is not after you, he'll leave when attacked by the dog. If intruder is after your life, than you better have backup of a big cal.
Unlikly: yes

Immpossible: No

[in_burrito]

you can purchase non-lethal rounds from your gun dealer that will make the perp wish he was dead after you hit him with a couple.
Can you provide a link to these products? I'm thinking you must mean "Ich Lüge" bullets.

[Quicksilver_LS2]

get yourself a kimber 1911 that is a sweet pice of machinery..i own one...

[nobdy1977]

if you're worried about "killing" someone you can purchase non-lethal rounds from your gun dealer that will make the perp wish he was dead after you hit him with a couple.

Don't go that route. that goes back to the whole wound him and really make him mad kind of thing. If you are going to use any force, use deadly force, you don't want to piss someone off to the point where a robbery turns into a second degree murder (where you or a loved one are the vic) If you use force, use complete force, or not at all.

[Flying Dutchman]

I also have been contemplating the same question and have recently found impactguns.com. I’m looking at a tactical Remington 870, it’s less than $280 (on sale) and has a lifetime warranty from Impact. If the sound of this thing chambering a shell isn’t enough to get them running at least you know you have the means to do some damage.

Education and practice are your friends.

Good luck.


FD

[GTOdivrMD]

get a dog more for an early warning system. i got a little rat terrier, noisiest thing on earth. wont do a damn to a burglar(well, actually, may try to nip him to death), but would give me quite a bit opf time to arm.

[mkturtle]

That's actually untrue. Ask a SWAT cop how many raids they've been on with "bad dogs" in the house and ask them how many times the dog has attacked them vs. run and hid under the sofa.

I also know of at least one case where a burglar kicked in a front door, and when the rottie that lived there jumped at his face the burglar caught him by the throat, slammed him into the wall, and choked him to death.

While I personally think that having a dog is one part of the home/self defense equation it most certainly isn't the whole solution.

I read study that shows in most cases barking dog will make burglar walk away and not even make attempt to enter....
I have a big dog and is is scary seeing her act at stranger knocking on the door, but on the other hand she is the sweetest dog and especially careful around the kids.

[SAKS-GTO]

I have a FL. concealed carry license & carry my gun. In Florida the area is'nt getting any better... I have a S & W 6906 9mm & love it!!! Dont buy a cheap gun! also take some classes on handling & the laws in your area.

[luke0927]

ok well besides the point to hunt "defenseless" animals (which was uncalled for and hunting is the right thing to do) but we wont go there.

I can see your worries about if you had to defend your self with deadly force. As you said the system is basically for the criminal. but with states passing laws as they did in FL hopefully that will change some things. You would expect GA to be a pretty big support and they are better than a lot of states but they still expect you to "flea" if you are not in your own home. So whats the point of me carrying if im being hijacked in my car or my GF is being abducted to be rapped. If we defend ourselves should we go to jail...no? will we hopefully not but im sure its going to cost you a lot of money because you will have to have an attorney....but i will tell you i will sort that out later. if some one threatens my life or my families life i hope to be able to put the threat down.

as far as never owning a gun etc....sign up for a firearms safety class. SAFETY is key i have been around guns since i could walk and i was taught safety from the beginning. You need to become familiar with your weapon and feel comfortable. Just remember treat every gun as if it were loaded (a lot fo people get killed from unloaded guns...) never point your firearm at anything you dont intent to shoot. Know where your muzzle is at all times. very simple the reason you see "accidental" shootings (which in my book there are none) is because of irresponsible people.

[lilgto]

As far as home defense I spoke to a Kentucky state Police Officer that I know. Not sure if it holds true in every state but this is what I was told. "Go to the furthest room in your house and call 911." Typically this is a bedroom. If the intruder comes to that room you are in, shoot to kill. The reason is that now the intruder is not after your stuff but after you. If you shoot to kill in this manner the court should uphold that in your mind they were intent on harming or killing you because they went to the furthest room in your house, obviously to get you and not your belongings.

On a second point, I do own multiple handguns because I enjoy shooting them and shoot them proficiently. However, a good shotgun would most likely be a better choice for home defense. A shotgun would not have to be aimed as accurately as a handgun to do significant damage and would be less likely to penetrate your homes walls and go into the next house to do damage to someone else.

Of course, follow the advice of others that have already posted. There appears to be a lot of good people on here that know firearms and I see gives good advice on handling them.

[TexasAggie]

Thanks guys for all the posts. Great advice that I'll use.

[Goat Lover]

...wait... there are laws about killing people?

...whoooops... heh heh
*hides*

on a serious note, laws be damned, if someone tries to kill me i kill them. If i get in trouble over it get out on bail and run for the damn border. Not the smartest thing or the right thing to do but i would rather live out of a prision cell than with one

[-db-]

However, a good shotgun would most likely be a better choice for home defense. A shotgun would not have to be aimed as accurately as a handgun to do significant damage and would be less likely to penetrate your homes walls and go into the next house to do damage to someone else.

A couple common misconceptions. At the ranges (10-15 feet) a typical indoor home encounter with an intruder any shot fired from a shotgun is going to be choked so much that the pattern isn't going to be much larger than a shot from a pistol. Even tighter with buckshot. It'd be different if we were talking about outdoor ranges where the shot pattern would be dispersed but at those ranges effectiveness rapidly diminishes making the whole point moot. Of course a sawed-off will spread shot better but those are illegal. In short, the shot pattern from a shotgun fired at short distance isn't going to be wide enough to be as forgiving when it comes to aim as most people assume. The big thing shotguns have going for them from a home-defense standpoint is a lot of noise (both racking them and shooting) and they look intimidating, which is a good deterrent, and raw power (in guages 12 or larger, anyway). Bad thing about a shotgun for home defense is its size- they can be clumsy and provide more opportunity for the bad guy to get ahold of the weapon. I know if I was a bad guy and I had a choice of having a home owner hold me at gunpoint from across a room with either a shotgun or pistol I'd much rather him have the shotty on me- I'd feel I have a much better chance of being able to grab the barrell of a shotgun sticking out a good 3-4 feet from the owner than I would a much smaller pistol that can be held and fired from basically his body.

As for the ol' "shoot through the walls and harm someone" stuff, that's another myth. Sure, it has happened but it's not common and someone would have to be shooting some hot-ass pistol ammo to put a round through a typical drywall or plaster wall or two, a few inches of insulation, the outside brick or siding and then again through the brick or siding of your neighbor's house, his insulation and another wall or two and still maintain enough energy to wound or kill someone. I'm not aware of any pistol ammo that can penetrate 2 feet or so of a mix of plaster/wood/brick/aluminum/glass/plumbing/etc. Of course apartments or motel/hotel rooms and their notorious flimsy walls are another story.

[SICKS.OH]

you might find this interesting...

www.theboxotruth.com

[A04GTO]

If I were to choose a shotgun I would choose a shotgun for it's knock down power not because the shot spreads. And if the intruder is dumb enough to grab the barrell then too bad for him.

[Napalm]

One of the things we discussed in the class that the practice of Double tapping vs. unloading the clip.

From a legal standpoint the instructor advised the double tap. Also he advised against using extended clips. Sounds too agressive for the jury. Also it argues that you were of clear mind when the situation occured and you weren't "out for blood".

However he also advised using a 40 cal or larger for stopping power and control, and use hollow points. Solid FMJ bullets run the potential to pass through and not put the energy into the target.

For home defense shotguns, run unchoked. Don't use magnum 3 1/2 shells. and don't have an extended tube. This will help your defense in front of the jury. Run unchoked for the reasons -db- mentioned, and again don't look too agressive. Any 2 3/4 standard shot shell loaded with something other than bird shot will suffice.

Again I recommend taking the class, and having it on record. It will help your case if you ever need it, and I learned so good tactics.

[in_burrito]

I don't double tap, I don't unload magazines; I shoot until the threat is neutralized. If this means the guy is still alive but he's lying on the ground breathing through a 6" hole I put in the top of his head with 17 rounds of .45 Gold Dots or he dies instantly with one miracle bullet to his heart, I'll stop shooting when he stops attacking.

I also wouldn't worry too much about "extended" magazines and such. I hear this advice all the time but I have yet to see anyone capable of presenting a documentable case where a judge or jury found this to be an issue.

[SICKS.OH]

I don't double tap, I don't unload magazines; I shoot until the threat is neutralized. If this means the guy is still alive but he's lying on the ground breathing through a 6" hole I put in the top of his head with 17 rounds of .45 Gold Dots or he dies instantly with one miracle bullet to his heart, I'll stop shooting when he stops attacking.

I also wouldn't worry too much about "extended" magazines and such. I hear this advice all the time but I have yet to see anyone capable of presenting a documentable case where a judge or jury found this to be an issue.


plus one!

i remember that being one of my first question for my CWL. the instructor said, shoot until there is no longer a threat.

[luke0927]

Beneli Superblack hawk will be my next shotgun....hopefully in few weeks Upland game season is about to open up in NOV.

Exactly you shot till the treat goes down...you need to practice in all type situation low light off handed etc... and if you are in a crowd if you every are confronted and close range ie the attacker is on you your going to want to try and put the muzzle in a more upward angle in the person chest to avoid a greater chance of the bullet passing through and hitting an innocent person.

[Scooter70]

I also wouldn't worry too much about "extended" magazines and such. I hear this advice all the time but I have yet to see anyone capable of presenting a documentable case where a judge or jury found this to be an issue.

Did you happen to see the Dateline NBC a few weeks ago where a guy named Mr Fish was found guilty of murder for defending himself from an attacker while hiking. He carried a 10mm Kimber with him "just in case" since there were bears and other large animals in the area. Keep in mind that he had a valid CPL and was a boyscout leader. The prosecution painted Mr Fish as a violent person because he "carried a large gun... even bigger than the police use and used special bullets that are designed to expand on impact to maximize damage". (He carried it with Hydrashocks.) If you check out any of the gun boards, they discussed it ad nauseum. I read through the thread on glocktalk and it was pretty interesting. The moral of the story was... prosecuting lawyers can put any spin on it that they want. You should do everything you can to refrain from giving them more ammunition (no pun intended) like using a sawed off shotgun, etc.

[in_burrito]

Did you happen to see the Dateline NBC a few weeks ago where a guy named Mr Fish was found guilty of murder for defending himself from an attacker while hiking. He carried a 10mm Kimber with him "just in case" since there were bears and other large animals in the area. Keep in mind that he had a valid CPL and was a boyscout leader. The prosecution painted Mr Fish as a violent person because he "carried a large gun... even bigger than the police use and used special bullets that are designed to expand on impact to maximize damage". (He carried it with Hydrashocks.) If you check out any of the gun boards, they discussed it ad nauseum. I read through the thread on glocktalk and it was pretty interesting. The moral of the story was... prosecuting lawyers can put any spin on it that they want. You should do everything you can to refrain from giving them more ammunition (no pun intended) like using a sawed off shotgun, etc.
Actually, my first order of business would be to refrain from taking anything said on Glocktalk.com or Dateline NBC at face value. Court records and transcripts are public record typically. I'd like to see that and make up my own mind as to what really happened. Without knowing the whole story I'll refrain from making any inferences.