Pontiac by Holden

[RobertHammen]

From http://www.mellor.net/mellor/enews.nsf/edition/$fi rst

"GM HOLDEN will sell more cars overseas than it does in Australia if a plan to export its billion-dollar VE Commodore to the US as the next-generation Pontiac Grand Prix sedan comes to fruition.

In an exclusive interview with GoAuto to discuss the concept of the VE as a world car rather than just an Australian car, company chairman and managing director Denny Mooney said that he was anticipating approval for the US program.

"You will see an announcement in the next three to four months. Assuming it happens, (shipments) would start a little beyond that. I am not making an official announcement (in this discussion),” he told GoAuto, “but it looks very favourable."

"I can tell you unequivocally that we designed the VE with the US in mind." Mr. Mooney confirmed that VE Commodore SS-V four-door sedans were under assessment in Detroit and indicated that speculation in the US motoring media that these Holden sports sedans would be sold as the Pontiac Grand Prix was not far off the mark.

In the strongest indication yet that GM is about to announce renewed Holden exports to Pontiac in the US, Mr Mooney revealed Holden plans to export more cars from the company’s Elizabeth plant in Adelaide than it sells here.

"I think from a manufacturing strategy here in Australia, Holden will ultimately have at least as many exports, if not more exports, than we
have domestic (sales of local cars)," he said. The plans are part of a strategy to droughtproof Holden from the changes taking place in
Australia in which large-car sales are drying up following a shift in the nature of the market.

"The one thing everyone needs to remember in this market, as in every market around the world, is that the market is fragmenting," Mr Mooney said. "You are not going to see any market in the future with one car or a couple of car lines dominating the market like we did 10 or 20 years ago.

"Everybody (when assessing large-car performance) wants to compare back to the market 10 years ago, but the market is much more fragmented. There are many more brands out there and many more models out there than there were back then (therefore) you have to find more markets for the car that you have.

"I don’t know if we would go as far as Toyota’s model where they have many more (Camry) exports than they do domestic sales, but I can
see in the future to survive we must have a fairly significant amount of export business."

Mr. Mooney said that in addition to the Middle East, where sales are expected to remain around 30,000 units a year, the US was "the other big market that we are looking at."

He said that an export program of a four door sedan to the US market could potentially achieve far more volume than the Pontiac GTO (Monaro), which failed to achieve the 18,000 units expected of it.

"If you look at this kind of vehicle in the US today, the sedan market is 20 times bigger than the coupe market."

Asked if the potential of the Pontiac program was inhibited by using the Monaro coupe body, Mr. Mooney said: "There is no question. Coupes
are very niche products in the US. Very niche. There is significantly more volume in a sedan. As sedans got better looking and got more sporty performance in the US market, coupes over time just disappeared."

Mr. Mooney said that Pontiac was "the natural partnership" for a Holden-sourced VE sedan program in the US. He has already told Australian
media earlier this year that the SS-V would make a great Pontiac and that Holden could play a role in moving Pontiac to rear-wheel drive.

Meanwhile, Mr. Mooney said that the first shipments of the VE have gone to the Middle East and the VE launch was held there two weeks ago.

"We will do more than 30,000 vehicles there next year and we will do about 30,000 this year. That includes the Chevrolet Lumina (Commodore)
and the Chevrolet Caprice (Statesman). It could increase, but that is our current forecast for next year. I am optimistic. There is a lot of enthusiasm for the product."

This compares with a forecast for 62,000 VZ/VE sales this year in Australia. This means that if Holden was to export more cars than it sold
domestically, sales of Pontiacs would have to be well over double those achieved by the GTO.

Mr. Mooney said that one of Holden’s strengths was that it already had installed capacity, equipment and infrastructure for the VE architecture. He said that under the GM's "flex strategy", a model could now be moved quickly from one plant to another. "It potentially gives you more options in more markets."

Far from seeing it as a threat that VE production could potentially go elsewhere, Mr. Mooney saw the "flex strategy" as an advantage for Holden.
"GM looks very hard at its existing installed capacity before it decides to spend money on new installed capacity. So we have the advantage
of having spent half a billion dollars (on VE capacity) over the last three years," he said.

He said that having VE architecture being built elsewhere in the world, like for the Camaro, would benefit Australian parts makers supplying the program and would mean that GM could afford more sophisticated systems for cars sold in small markets. This was because the investment
recovery in sophisticated systems was being spread across total VE architecture volumes.

"Some of the engineering that we are doing on that vehicle (the Camaro) that is advancing the architecture will help our vehicles (Commodore) over time because it will apply directly to our vehicles," he said. "It can help us put more advanced electronic features in our cars here and can help leverage lower-cost components that would be common.""

[ExTurbo]

interesting.looks like holden is playing a large roll in developing parts that can be used by lots of different cars GM makes. i cant wait for the new Grand prix!

[SMohan]

It would be sweet to be able to buy a Commodore, but they look so much like the 04-06 GTO, that now people will get even MORE confused when they see a GTO..... "That's a pretty nice grand prix you got there" I can just see it now. I already have to explain to people that my car is NOT based on the same platform of the current grand prix because it's NOT front wheel drive.

So, it'd be cool... but also not so cool.

[RobertHammen]

Well, it will be interesting to see if Pontiac can use the Grand Prix name (since the Oshawa plants currently have name exclusivity, just like the old Quebec plant had exclusivity on Camaro, until that plant was torn down).

It will also be interesting to see if your average Pontiac dealer can sell an SS-V here for $30-$32k, and if Pontiac dealers can move 30,000+ of them like Holden and Pontiac are hoping...

Three months from now would be about the time of the Chicago Auto Show. Sounds like a good time for a Chicago Goat Mob get-together/day at the auto show...

[ExTurbo]

hopefully they dont d ick around like they did when the 04's first come out and try and put a dealer markup on it. its a shame that the fate of these cars are put on crappy dealers that just wanna take you for a ride (if ya know what i mean) but i think if they can sell them for around 33k like you said they could see success, even if they have to call it the G8

[nixapatfan]

If they can keep the price of an ss-v around $32k or less range then they'll sell plenty. I'll be waiting in line.

[RobertHammen]

As long as there are no markups and no other snafus with Pontiac-izing it, and the price is in that range, I'll be picking one up in mid-to-late 2009 when my GTO is paid for :-)

[mrgto]

As long as there are no markups and no other snafus with Pontiac-izing it, and the price is in that range, I'll be picking one up in mid-to-late 2009 when my GTO is paid for :-)



A pontiac dealer that would mark up a "limited availabilty" car? NEVER! LOL

If they can get it here at between 30-32K with Navigation and all the bells and wistles, the car will sell well. If the shit bag dealers mark em up, it will be a repeat of the GTO.

[Eldodroptop]

I think $32-34K for a base GP/G8 sounds plausable. But these things will be pushing $40K with any kind of content. To think otherwise is pure fantasy.

[RobertHammen]

Look at our GTO's... they were consistent in content. Don't expect to see much variation in models (since it's easier/cheaper to just build them all the same)... we're gonna get one model, with standard options, and that's it. You'll probably still have to talk to JHP if you want accessories for the car...

[bonequark]

I already have to explain to people that my car is NOT based on the same platform of the current grand prix because it's NOT front wheel drive

You are wasting your time trying to explain a GTO to anyone who doesn't already know about the car. Why, it's like explaing orgasms to eunuchs!

[Jontall]

I hope they (GM) don't take all the good bits out for the US market.

[isszy]

It would be less necessary to take out the good bits to make it marketable. The Commodore SS-V sells for $50K in Australia ($US38K) and the SS sells for $44K ($USD32K). The increase in volume would make it pretty easy to sell at a $32K price.

The Monaro sold for $65 - $70K which would have meant a $USD50K GTO - not really acceptable.

[swegeon]

:barf: :barf: the one design fopar holden have done with the VE is the ride height its bloody horrid,they all look like 4x4's in real life. the gap between the top of the wheel and the bottom of the wheel arch is about 5 inches even on the HSV's and I believe that you cannot lower them because of the ESP or something, the photochops of the cars looking nice and low look killers .stunning .
. but the real thing look like shit.

[QuickSilverTiger]

A pontiac dealer that would mark up a "limited availabilty" car? NEVER! LOL

If they can get it here at between 30-32K with Navigation and all the bells and wistles, the car will sell well. If the shit bag dealers mark em up, it will be a repeat of the GTO.

I know what you mean...when the 2006 Vette came out, the Dealers marked them up $10-15K, people still bought them though. I have to applaud Chrysler for not doing that with the 300C. I really don't care much for the exterior looks of the 300C, but it has plenty of bells and whistles at a reasonable price.

[QuickSilverTiger]

:barf: :barf: the one design fopar holden have done with the VE is the ride height its bloody horrid,they all look like 4x4's in real life. the gap between the top of the wheel and the bottom of the wheel arch is about 5 inches even on the HSV's and I believe that you cannot lower them because of the ESP or something, the photochops of the cars looking nice and low look killers .stunning .
. but the real thing look like shit.

Let's just hope that the "Powers that be" have been doing some "desired design" research on websites like ours. For many years I have gone overseas to places like Germany, Bahrain, Dubai, etc...(via the US Navy) and have seen both GM and Ford products. It seems to me the only change that is made is Badging. I think it is not as difficult as some might think to keep the Holdens with all the exterior accents, but just change the badging.

The problem with keeping the Holden name exposed is familiarity. Within the American conscience many know Pontiac, but few know Holden. In the end it's about selling an awesome product. I have seen the Super V8 series (GO HOLDEN!), and have enjoyed it, but other than the Super V8 series Holden is really not known over here.

GM can just chalk it up to Pontiac gaining a "new look". We change exterior styling every few years or so anyway.

[QuickSilverTiger]

From http://www.mellor.net/mellor/enews.nsf/edition/$fi rst

"GM HOLDEN will sell more cars overseas than it does in Australia if a plan to export its billion-dollar VE Commodore to the US as the next-generation Pontiac Grand Prix sedan comes to fruition.

In an exclusive interview with GoAuto to discuss the concept of the VE as a world car rather than just an Australian car, company chairman and managing director Denny Mooney said that he was anticipating approval for the US program.

"You will see an announcement in the next three to four months. Assuming it happens, (shipments) would start a little beyond that. I am not making an official announcement (in this discussion),” he told GoAuto, “but it looks very favourable."

"I can tell you unequivocally that we designed the VE with the US in mind." Mr. Mooney confirmed that VE Commodore SS-V four-door sedans were under assessment in Detroit and indicated that speculation in the US motoring media that these Holden sports sedans would be sold as the Pontiac Grand Prix was not far off the mark.

In the strongest indication yet that GM is about to announce renewed Holden exports to Pontiac in the US, Mr Mooney revealed Holden plans to export more cars from the company’s Elizabeth plant in Adelaide than it sells here.

"I think from a manufacturing strategy here in Australia, Holden will ultimately have at least as many exports, if not more exports, than we
have domestic (sales of local cars)," he said. The plans are part of a strategy to droughtproof Holden from the changes taking place in
Australia in which large-car sales are drying up following a shift in the nature of the market.

"The one thing everyone needs to remember in this market, as in every market around the world, is that the market is fragmenting," Mr Mooney said. "You are not going to see any market in the future with one car or a couple of car lines dominating the market like we did 10 or 20 years ago.

"Everybody (when assessing large-car performance) wants to compare back to the market 10 years ago, but the market is much more fragmented. There are many more brands out there and many more models out there than there were back then (therefore) you have to find more markets for the car that you have.

"I don’t know if we would go as far as Toyota’s model where they have many more (Camry) exports than they do domestic sales, but I can
see in the future to survive we must have a fairly significant amount of export business."

Mr. Mooney said that in addition to the Middle East, where sales are expected to remain around 30,000 units a year, the US was "the other big market that we are looking at."

He said that an export program of a four door sedan to the US market could potentially achieve far more volume than the Pontiac GTO (Monaro), which failed to achieve the 18,000 units expected of it.

"If you look at this kind of vehicle in the US today, the sedan market is 20 times bigger than the coupe market."

Asked if the potential of the Pontiac program was inhibited by using the Monaro coupe body, Mr. Mooney said: "There is no question. Coupes
are very niche products in the US. Very niche. There is significantly more volume in a sedan. As sedans got better looking and got more sporty performance in the US market, coupes over time just disappeared."

Mr. Mooney said that Pontiac was "the natural partnership" for a Holden-sourced VE sedan program in the US. He has already told Australian
media earlier this year that the SS-V would make a great Pontiac and that Holden could play a role in moving Pontiac to rear-wheel drive.

Meanwhile, Mr. Mooney said that the first shipments of the VE have gone to the Middle East and the VE launch was held there two weeks ago.

"We will do more than 30,000 vehicles there next year and we will do about 30,000 this year. That includes the Chevrolet Lumina (Commodore)
and the Chevrolet Caprice (Statesman). It could increase, but that is our current forecast for next year. I am optimistic. There is a lot of enthusiasm for the product."

This compares with a forecast for 62,000 VZ/VE sales this year in Australia. This means that if Holden was to export more cars than it sold
domestically, sales of Pontiacs would have to be well over double those achieved by the GTO.

Mr. Mooney said that one of Holden’s strengths was that it already had installed capacity, equipment and infrastructure for the VE architecture. He said that under the GM's "flex strategy", a model could now be moved quickly from one plant to another. "It potentially gives you more options in more markets."

Far from seeing it as a threat that VE production could potentially go elsewhere, Mr. Mooney saw the "flex strategy" as an advantage for Holden.
"GM looks very hard at its existing installed capacity before it decides to spend money on new installed capacity. So we have the advantage
of having spent half a billion dollars (on VE capacity) over the last three years," he said.

He said that having VE architecture being built elsewhere in the world, like for the Camaro, would benefit Australian parts makers supplying the program and would mean that GM could afford more sophisticated systems for cars sold in small markets. This was because the investment
recovery in sophisticated systems was being spread across total VE architecture volumes.

"Some of the engineering that we are doing on that vehicle (the Camaro) that is advancing the architecture will help our vehicles (Commodore) over time because it will apply directly to our vehicles," he said. "It can help us put more advanced electronic features in our cars here and can help leverage lower-cost components that would be common.""


Robert I want to personally thank you for giving us fellow GTO'ers a ray of hope with constant info.

[paco04]

:barf: :barf: the one design fopar holden have done with the VE is the ride height its bloody horrid,they all look like 4x4's in real life. the gap between the top of the wheel and the bottom of the wheel arch is about 5 inches even on the HSV's and I believe that you cannot lower them because of the ESP or something, the photochops of the cars looking nice and low look killers .stunning .
. but the real thing look like shit.

Can you post some real life photos so we can see what you're talking about?
Thanks.

[nixapatfan]

Can you post some real life photos so we can see what you're talking about?
Thanks.

There are some real life photos in this thread:
http://63.90.120.229/forums/showthread.php?t=10770 7&page=3

They don't look as bad as he describes it, they do have some gap between the wheel and fender but I've seen much worse. The suspension will settle a little bit from the factory ride height after a few hundred miles of break in.

[mmciau]

Out in the back blocks of Queensland where the black soil prevails, you will wish for every spare mm of spacing in the wheel arches. If you have to "debog" this wet soil from the car's arches, you'll need all the free "swing" area you can muster!!!

That soil sticks like "baby S&%t to a blanket!!!!!!!!!!"

Mike

[paco04]

There are some real life photos in this thread:
http://63.90.120.229/forums/showthread.php?t=10770 7&page=3

They don't look as bad as he describes it, they do have some gap between the wheel and fender but I've seen much worse. The suspension will settle a little bit from the factory ride height after a few hundred miles of break in.

Thanks, Nix. I don't think that the gaps seem so bad either.

[carsuperfreak]

If/When the Commodore comes over to the states, I would guess it will stick with the L76 6.0L V8. The differences from the LS2 are a lower compression ratio (9.6 vs. 10.9) which I assume is due to the heads, and non-forged rods as in the LS2.

What does the aftermarket look like for this engine? Is there enough similarity between the LS2 and L76 to use interchangeable parts?

Do any of the Australian guys, who might have experience with this engine, know?

[simpleGTO]

Out in the back blocks of Queensland where the black soil prevails, you will wish for every spare mm of spacing in the wheel arches. If you have to "debog" this wet soil from the car's arches, you'll need all the free "swing" area you can muster!!!

That soil sticks like "baby S&%t to a blanket!!!!!!!!!!"

Mike
I kinda thought after seeing the beefe skid plate on these cars that you guys do a little off roading down under. An AWD GTO would be cool.

[TriShield]

It would be less necessary to take out the good bits to make it marketable. The Commodore SS-V sells for $50K in Australia ($US38K) and the SS sells for $44K ($USD32K). The increase in volume would make it pretty easy to sell at a $32K price.

The Monaro sold for $65 - $70K which would have meant a $USD50K GTO - not really acceptable.

No it wouldn't, the Pontiac Bonneville was selling for that much money here and people bought them. Lots of people. And it was a horrible car. The US is a gigantic market and gets cars cheaper than other countries and they aren't stripped to death.

Another big mistake would be calling this car a Grand Prix or direct Grand Prix replacement. It's not, if they let us option it here like Holden does in Australia it can replace both the Grand Prix and Bonneville as it will overlap both price ranges.

I for one will not buy a $32k+ car again without HID, nav, and the same features the competiton has. For even the low 30s this car will have some intense competition from cars like the Acura TL, Infiniti G35, etc.

[SStolen]

I'm a fan of calling it the G8... it goes better with the new wave product line naming series... that way they can sell it with a GTO/GTP package... or when they get a better looking car they call that a GTO.

They'll F it up like GM does everything else... Don't worry!

[QuickSilverTiger]

No it wouldn't, the Pontiac Bonneville was selling for that much money here and people bought them. Lots of people. And it was a horrible car. The US is a gigantic market and gets cars cheaper than other countries and they aren't stripped to death.

Another big mistake would be calling this car a Grand Prix or direct Grand Prix replacement. It's not, if they let us option it here like Holden does in Australia it can replace both the Grand Prix and Bonneville as it will overlap both price ranges.

I for one will not buy a $32k+ car again without HID, nav, and the same features the competiton has. For even the low 30s this car will have some intense competition from cars like the Acura TL, Infiniti G35, etc.

I agree, GM will definately have to "step their game up!" Offer all the options that you mentioned, and even offer ALL WHEEL DRIVE!
If GM is going to sell this car it must have many creature comforts, but stay away from being too BMW'y (more electronics than yu know what to do with).

[surfnturf]

Another big mistake would be calling this car a Grand Prix or direct Grand Prix replacement. It's not, if they let us option it here like Holden does in Australia it can replace both the Grand Prix and Bonneville as it will overlap both price ranges.



I wholeheartedly agree with this, the Grand Prix name seems to have fallen out of favor. If it was my choice I'd say resurrect the Catalina nameplate, it's been dead since 1981 and during the 60s it was the full size Pontiac muscle car, which is what they should be aiming for with the new one.

[QuickSilverTiger]

I wholeheartedly agree with this, the Grand Prix name seems to have fallen out of favor. If it was my choice I'd say resurrect the Catalina nameplate, it's been dead since 1981 and during the 60s it was the full size Pontiac muscle car, which is what they should be aiming for with the new one.

The Catalina nameplate might not be recognized by anyone but enthusiats. I think the way to go is: G8. Calling the new sedan a G8 will fall in line with the numerical monikers pontiac is doing. Pontiac has the G6 and the new G5. The G6 has been selling very well, but time will only tell regarding G5 sells. I think the G5 is different enough that it's not too Colbalt'y. The G5 is a smart looking vehicle and can sell on its own. Remember when the Cavalier Z24 and Pontiac Sunbird GT were around, they both sold very well.

The other thing Pontiac/Holden may want to look at is: All Wheel Drive. I have stressed this point before, AWD is a very solid alternative to RWD especially for northern states. You will have some that only believe that the G8 should be RWD, but what about those people who want a Pontiac/Holden, but also want AWD. Many people may even say..."buy and SUV", but what about people who only want an automobile, and either have a couple or no kids? I said it before, and I firmly believe that it would behoove Pontiac/Holden, and GM for that matter, to offer AWD on the new upcoming line. As with anything, it is a gamble, but a gamble that GM can win...if done right. Seeking and sharing info with a company like Suburu can only help GM in the long run.

[auzzie]

Just a Q whats wrong with calling it a commadore?

[carsuperfreak]

Just a Q whats wrong with calling it a commadore?


For one, Holden likely wouldn't want Pontiac using there marquee on a differently labeled car, and secondly, GM would likely catch a lot of flak if they "couldn't even come up with a new name" for the car.

[TA455]

Just a Q whats wrong with calling it a commadore?

We've already had our Commodore in the States. Hudson introduced it in 1941 and kept the nameplate until the early fifties.

http://www.leoemm.com/images12/hudson41.jpg

[swegeon]

i've seen a couple of HSV commodores in the last couple of days.they are the 2nd most stunning car on australian roads [4 door sedan] mercedes CLS 500 the only other eye catcher,,but its probably 4 times the price . the chrysler 300 is the same $'s as the hsv but IMO the HSV wins hands down.

[QuickSilverTiger]

i've seen a couple of HSV commodores in the last couple of days.they are the 2nd most stunning car on australian roads [4 door sedan] mercedes CLS 500 the only other eye catcher,,but its probably 4 times the price . the chrysler 300 is the same $'s as the hsv but IMO the HSV wins hands down.

IMO the Chrysler 300 is not that attractive. It does have a roomy interior and trunk space though. The Commodore is awesome! I love the way you guys cook!!!

[spd98]

No it wouldn't, the Pontiac Bonneville was selling for that much money here and people bought them. Lots of people. And it was a horrible car. The US is a gigantic market and gets cars cheaper than other countries and they aren't stripped to death.

Another big mistake would be calling this car a Grand Prix or direct Grand Prix replacement. It's not, if they let us option it here like Holden does in Australia it can replace both the Grand Prix and Bonneville as it will overlap both price ranges.

I for one will not buy a $32k+ car again without HID, nav, and the same features the competiton has. For even the low 30s this car will have some intense competition from cars like the Acura TL, Infiniti G35, etc.


90% of bonnie's were less than 30k. I don't know where your geting your numbers from. And they were good cars for what they were.

[rlsedition]

trishield,

You're forgetting that the VE V8 will absolutely blow both the TL and G35 away from a performance standpoint (300 HP does not equal 400 HP), but I agree they would all be in the same general price class.

[carsuperfreak]

Something I've been curious about from a performance perspective - If the Commodore/G8 is launched with the L98 engine, what will be the effect of aftermarket, because the L98 is cam-in-block VVT?

[GTOGRRRR]

look at the HSV ClubSport....call it a ClubSport here....niiiiiice....

[txbatman]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/commodore-heads-for-us-car-market/2007/01/08/1168104922277.html

Looks like a lot here will be driving a commodore next year.