Race your GTO in SCCA T2 Class!

[EartoStreet]

2004/5 GTO Owners or Future Owners,

Below is the current state of lobby for the use of the 2004/5 GTO in SCCA Club Racing. These rules apply to Regional and National events. I intend to do the best I can to make the GTO competitive in SCCA T2 competition (within my tiny budget and SCCA rules, no cheating!) where your GTO can run door to door with Cadillac CTS-V, Nissan 350Z, Porsche Boxsters, Subaru STis, and Mitsubishi Evo 8s. This form of racing is affordable, safe and fun. Your bone stock GTO will perform well with good tires, and brake pads, but we of course want it to be a champion.

If anyone has questions on what it takes to register and get their GTO prepared to go racing please go to http://www.scca.com for more info. You will need to go to a school to obtain a regional license, then you are free to run at one of hundreds of weekends the SCCA holds every year at tracks from all corners of the country. Parts are currently in development, but when they are complete you will be able to order them through a GM Performance Parts dealer or through me directly, assuming everything goes according to plan.

Hope to see you at the track!

John Buttermore
Designing Engineer
GM High Performance Vehicles
Road Racing Program Manager
(Driver #73 T2 CTS-V)

Touring Class Specifications for GTO:

T2
Stock:
1. Classify 04-05 Pontiac GTO.
Add new spec line to TCS p.29. Pontiac
GTO, 04-05. Bore(mm) x Stroke(mm) /
Displ.(cc): 99.0 x 92.0 / 5665, 101.68 x
92.1 / 5967, Valves IN & EX(mm): 50.8(I)
39.4(E), Comp Ratio: 10.6, 11.5,
Wheelbase(mm): 2788.9, Wheel size(in.):
17 x8(F) 17 x 8(R), Tire size: 245/45(F)
245/45(R), Gear ratios: 2.97, 2.07, 1.43,
1.84, .57, Final Drive: 3.46, Brakes(mm):
296 / 320 vented disc(F) 286 vented / solid
disc(R), Weight (lbs.): 3830, Notes: Cars
may update and backdate.

Allowed:
5. Pontiac GTO (04-05), classified in TB
05-02, add to the specs as follows: Wheel
Size(in.): 17 x 9.5 (F&R), Tire Size:
275/35 max. (F&R), Notes: The following
parts are allowed: Brake duct kit part #
TBD, alt. radiator part # TBD, trans.
cooler # TBD, oil cooler # TBD, diff. cooler
# TBD. This max. tire supersedes TCS
tire rule section 17.1.8.D.7.b. Change
the specs as follows: Weight(lbs.): 5665cc
@ 3730, 5967cc @ 3830.

7. Allow the 2004-05 GTO to update
and backdate (Buttermore). This
allowance appeared in the February 2005
Fastrack.

15. Allow alternate upper strut mounts
on the Pontiac GTO (Buttermore). These
mounts move the upper pickup points,
which is inconsistent with the class philosophy. :(

We have submitted a small diameter spring conversion kit which will be voted on at the 4/5 Club Racing Board meeting. We'll get those wheels to fit one way or another.

[JJKJ]

2004/5 GTO Owners or Future Owners,

Below is the current state of lobby for the use of the 2004/5 GTO in SCCA Club Racing. These rules apply to Regional and National events. I intend to do the best I can to make the GTO competitive in SCCA T2 competition (within my tiny budget and SCCA rules, no cheating!) where your GTO can run door to door with Cadillac CTS-V, Nissan 350Z, Porsche Boxsters, Subaru STis, and Mitsubishi Evo 8s. This form of racing is affordable, safe and fun. Your bone stock GTO will perform well with good tires, and brake pads, but we of course want it to be a champion.

If anyone has questions on what it takes to register and get their GTO prepared to go racing please go to http://www.scca.com for more info. You will need to go to a school to obtain a regional license, then you are free to run at one of hundreds of weekends the SCCA holds every year at tracks from all corners of the country. Parts are currently in development, but when they are complete you will be able to order them through a GM Performance Parts dealer or through me directly, assuming everything goes according to plan.

Hope to see you at the track!

John Buttermore
Designing Engineer
GM High Performance Vehicles
Road Racing Program Manager
(Driver #73 T2 CTS-V)

Touring Class Specifications for GTO:

T2
Stock:
1. Classify 04-05 Pontiac GTO.
Add new spec line to TCS p.29. Pontiac
GTO, 04-05. Bore(mm) x Stroke(mm) /
Displ.(cc): 99.0 x 92.0 / 5665, 101.68 x
92.1 / 5967, Valves IN & EX(mm): 50.8(I)
39.4(E), Comp Ratio: 10.6, 11.5,
Wheelbase(mm): 2788.9, Wheel size(in.):
17 x8(F) 17 x 8(R), Tire size: 245/45(F)
245/45(R), Gear ratios: 2.97, 2.07, 1.43,
1.84, .57, Final Drive: 3.46, Brakes(mm):
296 / 320 vented disc(F) 286 vented / solid
disc(R), Weight (lbs.): 3830, Notes: Cars
may update and backdate.

Allowed:
5. Pontiac GTO (04-05), classified in TB
05-02, add to the specs as follows: Wheel
Size(in.): 17 x 9.5 (F&R), Tire Size:
275/35 max. (F&R), Notes: The following
parts are allowed: Brake duct kit part #
TBD, alt. radiator part # TBD, trans.
cooler # TBD, oil cooler # TBD, diff. cooler
# TBD. This max. tire supersedes TCS
tire rule section 17.1.8.D.7.b. Change
the specs as follows: Weight(lbs.): 5665cc
@ 3730, 5967cc @ 3830.

7. Allow the 2004-05 GTO to update
and backdate (Buttermore). This
allowance appeared in the February 2005
Fastrack.

15. Allow alternate upper strut mounts
on the Pontiac GTO (Buttermore). These
mounts move the upper pickup points,
which is inconsistent with the class philosophy. :(

We have submitted a small diameter spring conversion kit which will be voted on at the 4/5 Club Racing Board meeting. We'll get those wheels to fit one way or another.

My main question when reading this Tech Bulletin was how are you supposed to fit a 17x9.5" on the front. I guess your spring kit answers that question, but next question is why the 275 35 tire size? Why not approve the more correct diameter 275 40 17? If I understand the +/-10/20 rule, I could only run a 275 45, not a 275 40. Does the +10 rule even apply in this circumstance since they specify a max size? Last question is in regards to rear fitment. The GCR doesn't allow for fender modifications as an allowable modification, I can't see how a 17x9.5 will fit in the rear without rolling or modifying the rear fenderlip.

My big question now is '04 or '05? The '05 obviously now has the hp/weight advantage, but as most racers agree, reducing weight (to a point) pays greater dividends than adding hp. I'm thinking that an '04 with an '05 brake system, and the larger tires allowed may be the way to go.

I have been very interested in looking at T2 with a GTO. My original intent when purchasing my GTO last fall was to prepare for T2. However, at the time, the word I got was the rules would not be all that favorable for the car. I also fell in love with driving it. I searched out and found an '02 Z28 for conversion instead. However, I'm now possibly reconsidering.

I'd also like to say thank you for your efforts to bring this car to a competitive level in this class. Last year when I made mention of the GTO for T2, I found little or no interest.

[EartoStreet]

Thanks for your interest. The SCCA is a member driven organization, as such anyone can submit for allowances on a given vehicle. Manufacturers reps like myself like to get ahead of it so someone does not get "their" part approved which may detract from safety and performance and most likely does not see the same sort of testing as a GM Performance Part or a GM approved supplier part would. If you could submit a letter supporting a smaller diameter spring conversion using tire fittment as the main reason it would help our case out. All submissions go to crb@scca.com which is the email address of the Club Racing Board. You could also discuss it with Jeremy Thoennes or John Bauer which are the tech directors.
To answer your questions:
1. That is the max width and minimum sidewall allowance. You could run any sidewall between 35 and 55, and any tire size up to 275. Although we would advise Hoosier part number 46730 P275/40/ZR17 tires on a 9.5" rim.
2. Rolling the fender is not addressed in the rules and we do it on our CTS-V, it is okay as long as it's not a hack job (chipped paint, dents, etc). Pinching the flange and rolling it with a bat would do the trick.
3. 04 or 05? The brakes are the big difference obviously. Since tuning is allowed running a slightly larger displacement is preferable. Tunes for Sunoco GT100 fuel will likely open the 50HP gap up a little bit. Plus the 100lb weight difference is a 2.6% weight reduction. Who knows?

-John

PS - Nice Wheels!

[Pat]

Nice to have you here, John (B). How many people are running GTOs in T2, nationwide? Is there a club racing type series in Australia, and if so what do they do there to fit the wheels and tires?

A new Touring car is a bit over my race budget these days, and I wouldn't leave our 30-car SM fields for the 5-car T2 fields locally, but I would love to see the GTO succeed in Club Racing as well as pro racing.

Best of luck with your 2005 season and the GTO racing program.

[EartoStreet]

Not any yet that I know of, although our goal is to change all that. The car was only recently classified for competition, and Plan B to fit the front wheels goes before the Club Racing review board 4/5/05.
Pacific Northwest has typically smaller Touring car fields than most other regions, and going the the National Championship runoffs with a bid from your region would be pretty easy given the numbers of competitors competing for 10 invites. Then you could run with over 30 cars at Mid-Ohio this fall.
Fitting the wheels can be done many different ways, our challenge is to find a way to fit them that the SCCA Club Racing Board approves of. Switching to DMS Coilovers with adjustable perches on threaded bodies and Eibach ERS 2.5" ID springs would be easy as pie, but not legal.

And you don't need a new car, you already have one . . . . . .

[Pat]

And you don't need a new car, you already have one . . . . . .

Heh- somehow I don't think GMAC would be too keen on a cage and Hoosiers on the car when I turn it in at lease end... :gr_jest:

[JJKJ]

Heh- somehow I don't think GMAC would be too keen on a cage and Hoosiers on the car when I turn it in at lease end... :gr_jest:

Yea Pat, too bad bolt-in cages aren't still legal in Touring. :) If they were, all you'd have to do is try and explain the tire rub marks on your doors. :)

John, is there further work that needs to be done to put the spring kit in front of the board next month?

I have been thinking about this a lot since your first post. Like I said, plan A when I bought the GTO was to run T2. When I mentioned this plan to any experienced T2 racer, I was told all the reasons not to run the GTO. I'm not one to just follow the crowd, but at the same time, I have learned to listen to my fellow experienced racers. I'm not sure how frequent you're on SCCAforums.com but I did start a thread on this subject last fall when I bought the GTO. After all the advice I received, as mentioned in my previous post, I went to Plan B and bought an '02 Z28 for T2. No work has occurred on the Z28 yet so my plan is still open to change.

The quandry I'm facing is the same as any other racer looking at the GTO: the f-body has a race weight of approx 300lbs less (I don't have exact number to reference here at work) and same drivetrain. The restrictor plate is gone on the '01-'02 f-body now which makes it even more attractive. The only real advantage of the GTO over the f-body is the larger wheel/tire combo and IRS. Another advantage of the f-body is its lower cost. If I were to race a GTO, I'd definitely have to run an '04 due to cost; I don't think we'll see any '05's for the same price range I bought my '04. I wonder about the competitiveness of the '04 to not only the '05 but the other cars in the field. I'm not trying to be negative on this subject because I really want to do this, however I want to look at all the facts. I also know that rules can be changed and performance enhancements still given to the '04 if it isn't competitive, but like the GCR caveat states, there is no guarantee of competitiveness. I am not new to road racing, but I am new to the SCCA game. I don't know how easy it is to get the CRB to listen and institute change for a car like this. Perhaps you have further insight John.

Thanks,

[bellwilliam]

The following
parts are allowed: Brake duct kit part #
TBD, .

I am really interested what you have for a brake duct kit.

[EartoStreet]

I'm glad this has sparked some discussion. To answer a few questions
1. Brake duct kit will be developed once our test mule is delivered with proper body work. They will be put in place of factory fog lamps.
2. The spring kit is already going before the board so we eagerly await it's decision
3. On choice of car remember these few things
a. Performance allowances only go back 5 years in Touring classes, as such after 2007 all Camaro / Firebird allowances disappear they must run full stock.
b. F Bodies lift rear inner wheels on corner exit smoking the RR tire on right turns. The GTO will not do this and get better tire life becuase of it.
c. If the SCCA disapproves everything we ask for we need to have a few uncompetitive cars out on the track to lobby for changes. I hope the car will be competitive, but if it's not we need that evidence as ammunition. Like the F Bodies got the restrictors removed once the CTS-V and others took over the class and were seen as needing performance enhancements.

[JJKJ]

Thanks for the additional info John. I am very familiar with the f-body issue of reduced traction on the inside rear tire. Now that you mention that issue, I realized I haven't experienced that at all with the GTO, but I haven't taken it to the track yet and I'm not as stupid on the streets as I used to be. :)

Another question for you--you proposed a change for alternate upper strut mounts, do you know what the appoximate max neg camber you can get with the stock mounts? Will the GTO be camber limited without this mod? I haven't messed with mine at all yet because it's only seen street duty.

Do you know when part numbers will be available for the other alternate parts like radiator, trans and diff coolers?

[EartoStreet]

Camber can be set at about 2 degrees static negative with provided screw at upper knuckle. Your stock size tire will rub with this setting, although not severly. This is all approximate of couse based on your car it will change slightly.
Part numbers are not available yet and as soon as I finish designs which will take some time to validate I'll be sure to let you know. These kits will be fully validated and tested to work correctly which will take months. The car may work alright without them but get a good trans, engine, and diff oil gauge if you plan to go this route to keep things under a watchful eye. I am at a hotel in Road Atlanta for the Easter Nationals so this will likely be my last post until I get back home next Tue. I appreciate the interest and hope to see you at the track sometime.

-JB

[JJKJ]

Thanks for the information and encouragement John. I'm pretty sure I want to pursue this course of action. First step though is to sell off the '02 Z28 I bought for T2. That can be seen here (http://www.ls2gto.com/forums/showthread.php?p=292 061#post292061). Once that car is sold, then I can start with work on the GTO.

[JJKJ]

John B.,

I sent you a PM.

Thanks,

[JuniorCruzer]

Wow, this is very interesting. I will watch this to see how this goes. I would like to get into this some time this summer.

Jon

[Kash4u]

To answer your questions:
1. That is the max width and minimum sidewall allowance. You could run any sidewall between 35 and 55, and any tire size up to 275. Although we would advise Hoosier part number 46730 P275/40/ZR17 tires on a 9.5" rim.
2. Rolling the fender is not addressed in the rules and we do it on our CTS-V, it is okay as long as it's not a hack job (chipped paint, dents, etc). Pinching the flange and rolling it with a bat would do the trick.
-John

PS - Nice Wheels!

Obviously trying to fit proper tires on this car is a pain (anything wider than stock) and of course no shop is willing to roll my lip for me. Can you let me know the best process if I do it myself with a friend to avoid paint & fender damage and include optimum wheel width and offset for 18's running at least 275's with no offset greater than 50mm (what is optimal yet available).

I've heard lots of methods, but you probably would be the best bet. Additionally, I haven't bought wheels yet, but am looking at 18x9.5's with 50mm offset for the rear (probably BMW Z4 wheels) to run a pathetic 275, would you recommend something different (to fit at least 275's)? Obviously people run all kinds of stuff on the forums and I've heard enough different things that I have put off buying wheels and tires.