Remington 700 .308 Rifle

[addbass]

im looking to get a nice rifle that shoots .308 rounds.. people keep saying the 700 is good but its close to 800-1000 without anything! NO SCOPE OR BIPOD... wtf is up with that? i would have to spend close to 1200 with everything said and done for a decent rifle.

do i have better choices?

[ehill101]

Go on gunbroker.com I picked one up for $600 your talking about a very accurate weapon. It is the same rifle the Marine snipers use among others I got mine from oklahoma police supply from that website. Good luck Bro.

Eric.

[WhiteyBear]

that's because the .308 is a QUALITY firearm and it's value appreciates constantly

After you buy your rifle would you want the value to go up or down? Keep in mind that a price value staying stagnant is LOSING money.

What are your goals for shooting? Hunting? Target?

[Langdonious Rex]

Good rifles are never cheap (unless you stumble upon those rare smokin deals). You've got alot of choices in .308 but if budget is more important, you may want to consider a different round. I see alot of rifles in the 7mm Remington cartridge in the $400 range. Hell, I just picked up a Mosin Nagant for $110 OTD. Yeah, it's a 60 year old Russian rifle, but 7.62x54 is a great round, that old SOB is reliable, and there are tons of inexpensive aftermarket parts for it. Why specifically .308?

[WhiteyBear]

Savage could be a brand you shoot for.....

Bear in mind there is a reason why the best brands cost the most....but just for basic functions Savage is just fine. Like Tasco compared to Leupold (scopes). I personally have both, and there is a difference, I love my leupold!

[speeddemon]

Good rifles are never cheap (unless you stumble upon those rare smokin deals). You've got alot of choices in .308 but if budget is more important, you may want to consider a different round. I see alot of rifles in the 7mm Remington cartridge in the $400 range. Hell, I just picked up a Mosin Nagant for $110 OTD. Yeah, it's a 60 year old Russian rifle, but 7.62x54 is a great round, that old SOB is reliable, and there are tons of inexpensive aftermarket parts for it. Why specifically .308?
+1,cant beat the nagant for the price

[greg'sgoat]

Rem 700 in .308 will be the precision rifle I am going to pick up soon.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/rem_700sps.html

And a good scope should not be cheap. Cheap scopes will serve their purpose, but often don't hold zero and will end up breaking with repeated shock, which will be magnified with a powerful round like .308 of 7mm.

[nesikachad]

Some points:

Caliber selection means nothing in terms of gun quality.
Timex/Rolex. Both tell time. What would you rather have on your wrist?
Corvette/Chevette. What'd you rather drive to work?

Its all relative to what is important to you.

Case in point. I own ten rifles. They appraise for over 80K.

If you want really nice stuff:

www.Nesika.com

Enjoy.

[greg'sgoat]

^^^^Holy crap. I'm sure those things are nice and all, but that is getting into .50BMG territory for that price.

[TLS_Addict]

I have a rem. model 700 in 257 robers Mt. Rifle made only 1 year. They are good guns but I am not supre impressed with them. Plus not offense, the 308 is a great gun, but for me is underpowered. Regardless if the snipers use them. It has a consistent drop which is nice but for me I would rather grab something with more ass behind it. You can however get MAGNUM shells for it and the ballistics are that of or exceeding a 30-06. Which is another good choice. I prefer my 300 win mag and with handloads is a great shooter, but its a winchester 70 with the 26 incher instead of the 24. I like rare guns though, like the 338 lapua, the 7mm STW (8mm mag case necked to 7mm), or the 30-06 ackley improved. The 35 Walen is also great, its a 30-06 case necked to 358. Great for up to 300 yards.

If you can handle the recoil go bigger than the 308. You can shoot the heavier faster and with more power if you go with a larger 30 callibur choise. Or the 7mm mag is good, I have one of those as well, but I also have a 338 and a 350 rem mag. Oh and I have a browning BLR in 284 (7mm bullet for you folks who dont know) that was only made 1 year. A 270 is great, as is a 25-06. Those 2 and the 30-06 use the same case just the neck is pushed out for different diam. bullets.

Stay AWAY from the new 338 federal. They are not tac drivers and are not that flat shooting. If you want a rifle that is for hunting and is one you want to beat and not worry about scratching go get yourself a STEVENS. Made by savage and they are about $300 max for any callibur they offer. Browing rep showed me the new a-bolt that is coming out. Its worth checking in to.

Also dont be afraid to go REAL big like the unltra mags. They dont kick as much as you would think and you can buy the loads that are equivalent to 30-06, 300 win mag, or the 300 ultra mag specs. This is not to be confused though with the 300 ultra SHORT mag or the 300 rem. short mag.

If you are going to shoot nothing but factory and dont plan to reload any cases than go with either a 270 or a 30-06. Cheap amo and can be found anywhere.

[TLS_Addict]

As far as scopes go.....I watched the cross hairs drop out of a leupold when I sighted in my friends 300 unltra mag after just 3 shots of just 165gr bullets. Also I have seen a cheap BSA scope withstand 150 gr charge of powder out of my 50 cal muzzle loader. I would go with a middle of the road scope. The Simmons AETEC is a great scope and is MORE CLEAR than my B&L 3200 Elite (you gun boys know what that is), I personally wouldnt spend more then $200 on a hunting scope because you dont need a great scope to shoot an animal. If your driving tacs at 500 yards in competition than that is another story.

Also......to me 308 and 7mm's dont kick. What kicks is a 300 win mag with 72 grains of IMR 4350 pushing a 180 gr bal. tip bt out of a Winchester Model 70 with the synthetic stock and the hard rubber but plate. Or my 350 rem mag with max load 250 gr bullets in an 8lb Ruger.

I presonally like a gun that has some push/kick to it. It separates the men from the boys. I love to see guys flintch and jerk the trigger because they are afraid of some recoil.....lol

Whatever you pick make sure you post some pics.

[nesikachad]

Here's a couple of mine:
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ 300338LapuaHeavyVarmint.jpg
300-338 Lapua Magnum (LR prairie dog whacker)

Nesika Model M action
Krieger 30 cal barrel, 1-12 ROT Finish length 36"
Nightforce 8-32X optics
Vaise brake
Fibron stock
Builder: Me.

Performance:

125grain Nosler ballistic tip:

4375 fps velocity
5 shot group @ 100 yards .325" center to center


6.5mm 284 (deer/elk/antelope gun)
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ 6.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ Floormetalinlet.jpg

Krieger 1-8ROT barrel finished at 26"

Nesika Model V action
Sunny Hill billet floor metal
McMillan Nesika Varmint stock
Schmidt & Bender 4-16X optics
Builder: Me

Performance:

142grain Hornaday A max 3450fps
5 shot group .265" center to center


International Palma Rifle: (800, 900, 1000 yard international competitive shooting)
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ MyPALMA.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ Palmastock.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ MyPalmariflebedding.jpg




Nesika Model K action
Mark Chanlynn 30 caliber 1-13ROT finish @30"
Chambered in 308 Winchester (Radway Green)
Trigger: Grunig/Elmiger FT 300
Stock, EXB grade English Walnut (my design)
Hardware: My design
Rear sight: Warner Tool Company
Front Sight: My design
Builder: Yep, me again. . .

Performance:

155 grain Sierra Match Kings, Lapua 308 brass, Federal GM210 primer and 46.5 grains of Varget yields a muzzle velocity of right about 3150fps depending on what lot of powder is used.

Accuracy: 1/4 to 1/3 minute of angle groups at 1000 yards.


I'll be in business for myself come this time next year if all goes as planned.

PLEASE.

Save your money and buy a gun from me!

[WhiteyBear]

Nice results! I'm going to do my research on Nesika...sounds like a lifetime hunting rifle.

Although I do love my 700 .270 right now, thing is a perfect hunting rifle.

[MrYenko]

Those actions are spectacularly, jaw droppingly beautiful.

Id almost be afraid to shoot it.

...

...almost. :D

[nesikachad]

Thanks.

It is nice stuff. Was a fun time working there. I was the production manager for three years prior to this "blood thirsty" contractor work here in Iraq.

[MrYenko]

Thanks.

It is nice stuff. Was a fun time working there. I was the production manager for three years prior to this "blood thirsty" contractor work here in Iraq.

Ive seen some of the offers for contract helicopter mechanics. Id be there too if I had the experience they want.

:eek2:

[DABLACK1]

this is a .308 i want


http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/springfield/ spg_32596.jpg

[TLS_Addict]

Thanks.

It is nice stuff. Was a fun time working there. I was the production manager for three years prior to this "blood thirsty" contractor work here in Iraq.

Nice guns my man!

300 338 lapua is a nice weapon. About the same ballistics as the ultramag (cases are really close). Some nice groupings your shooting as well. I am not a fantastic target shooter but generally my hunting rifles shoot sub 1 inch groups or better at 100 yards. If not I sell them. Worst is the Browning A-bolt 7mm mag. Most accurate gun I have is a heavy barrel "Tactical Savage" in 25-06 with a cheap simmons 6.5-20x50 scope. With hand loading some 117 or 120 gr bullets its pretty easy to cut 3 holes together. And with some 90 grn hollow points its a deadly woodchuck weapon....lol

I think the OP should go with a cheaper gun if its just for hunting. When I put a ding or a scratch on my BLR I get pissed. Thats why I havent pulled the trigger on a White Gold Medallion in 325. I can get it at cost but if I scratch it I would beat my balls for a week.

[addbass]

well this is gonna be my first rifle, i perfer larger rounds. But not soo big where its gonna cost me a dollar to shoot each one.. it really piles up! i just want a good first rifle that isnt gonna give me issues. thats a 308 and where i can put a bipod and scope. I dont think ill be shooting farther than 500 yards.

[Midnight Goat]

well this is gonna be my first rifle, i perfer larger rounds. But not soo big where its gonna cost me a dollar to shoot each one.. it really piles up! i just want a good first rifle that isnt gonna give me issues. thats a 308 and where i can put a bipod and scope. I dont think ill be shooting farther than 500 yards.

Im in the same boat as you. I bought a savage 111 in 7mm rem mag but I am going to sell it and build my own rig. My budget is about the same as yours so Ill give you an idea of what im building.

Im going to buy a savage model 11 short action in 243 (same bolt face and action for .308)
Buy a shilen barrel in .243
Sharp shooter supply trigger
Prairie dog/tactical stock from stockade
Tactical bolt handle from sharp shooter supply
0 moa scope mount from Ken Farrel industries
Burris medium rings
http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/detail.aspx?ID=616 That scope (got great reviews and is nice and cheap)
Going to be a very nice rig for about 800/900 after I sell the 111 I have.

If you want to buy a complete rifle I suggest going to a gander mountain or cabelas and playing with all the actions you can. If I were to buy a rifle and not upgrade it, I would get a tikka or a particular ruger. Can't remember which model it was but the action was beautiful. Was more on the expensive side though.

[schufflerbot]

damn, chad. nice ones.

[Doc GTO]

Rem 710 is a nice lower cost option.

[Ramsey]

this is a .308 i want


http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/springfield/ spg_32596.jpg

Yes the springfield armory SOCOM 2. They have some very nice weapons on their site, but damn are they spendy.

[addbass]

Rem 710 is a nice lower cost option.

how much do they run for? and do they come in .308?

[Scurvy]

6.5 Grendel > *

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

The guys with really expensive rifles won't even let you now they have them. Let alone post pics of them..

The Remington 700 in .308 is an excellent rifle for target shooting and field use.

[oodn-oodn]

Take a look at a CZ rifle if you can find a gunshop with them. Same league as the Rem700, they come in a variety of styles & calibers, & the set trigger is SWEET!

[WhiteyBear]

well this is gonna be my first rifle, i perfer larger rounds. But not soo big where its gonna cost me a dollar to shoot each one.. it really piles up! i just want a good first rifle that isnt gonna give me issues. thats a 308 and where i can put a bipod and scope. I dont think ill be shooting farther than 500 yards.

If this is going to be your first rifle, don't go spending 1,000 dollars on it.

Go get yourself a nice 270 setup, don't worry about a bi-pod. Good tried and true 700 remington action and a mid-class scope. You can get out to 400+ without issues if you know how to shoot. If you think that it's too small of a caliber (it isn't) then go with a 7mm MAG, that is plenty enough for your first go round.

If you decide to stay with a 308, don't get a cheap one, it's like buying a C6 but getting a basic one with no options; fun, but you'll always wish you would've gotten more.

Just my personal experience.

Nothing is worse than a new shooter going out and spending 1k+ and becoming disenchanted with it. You can get a good rifle setup for 500-700.

[Scurvy]

Might also want to consider a Mauser 98k. They are easy to find and my grandfather built several custom rifles through his life and always used a mauser action

[shrike]

.338 is the way to go.... how I kinda prefer Blaser right now.

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/blaser.jpg

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/lrs_bolt.jpg

[addbass]

what about a savage 308? i can walk away under 700 it looks like.

[rmpage]

Here's a couple of mine:
I came.

[nesikachad]

.338 is the way to go.... how I kinda prefer Blaser right now.

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/blaser.jpg

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/lrs_bolt.jpg

A Blaser is a novelty in my opinion. I've worked on several. Yes the straight pull action is cool, but it can get you into trouble also.

Primary extraction is marginal. Not a good thing on a heavy magnum running at over 60,000cup and if you shoot the barrel out (which in the case of the 338 Lapua is between 1000-1500 rounds depending on bullets and load) you will have one hell of a time having it rebarreled because the locking lugs are machined into the barrel itself. Then the barrel has to be induction hardened around the lugs so that the headspace doesn't go to hell in the first 200 rounds.

Neat? yes.

Practical? Probably not for the long haul in this caliber.

There are just too many other options out there that makes life much easier.

[nesikachad]

The guys with really expensive rifles won't even let you now they have them. Let alone post pics of them..

The Remington 700 in .308 is an excellent rifle for target shooting and field use.


I have really expensive rifles.http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesi kachad/th_myspaceexperiment-1.png (http://s165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ ?action=view&current=1170186670.pbw)



Ten of them to be exact.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Scurvy]

I would like to know your opinions on 6.5 grendel

[shrike]

There are just too many other options out there that makes life much easier.

You would probably also think this in a 6xc sucks as well....

http://www.6mmbr.com/i/Reader%20Photos/Greenwood03 WEB.jpg

[machinistone]

I would like to know your opinions on 6.5 grendel


Yeah - I'm interested too. I am about to order parts for either a 6.5 Grendel AR, or a .308 AR-10 - Have not made the final decision yet.

[Scurvy]

you should get grendel I think.

Pretty sure you can just swap uppers and switch effortlessly between 6.5 grendel and .223

[TLS_Addict]

Take a look at a CZ rifle if you can find a gunshop with them. Same league as the Rem700, they come in a variety of styles & calibers, & the set trigger is SWEET!

I have a CZ in .204 Ruger. Its great and zips at over 4200 imv. They make their "1,000 Yard Rifle" which is chambered in 300 win mag.....My personal favorite.

[TLS_Addict]

My 204 has the set triggle. I believe they are around 12 oz....lol Breath hard and it goes off......lol

[nesikachad]

You would probably also think this in a 6xc sucks as well....

http://www.6mmbr.com/i/Reader%20Photos/Greenwood03 WEB.jpg


Why would I think that it sucks? A Tubb 2K? A Tubb 2K with a "Texas Tall Boy" front ladder sight and a Warner rear sight.

It was designed by David Tubb, a US National Champion match and long range shooter. (He's won several times over, at least 12 that I know of) It's manufactured by the Mcmillan Brothers. Kelly McMillan and Dick Davis offered me the production manager position in their company in 2005 because of the back log they had. I politely declined the offer.

Nice guns for NRA Match Rifle category.

I've worked on a few of these.

There are some things to look out for though.

The Tubb 2K has a little more unsupported case than most guns. This is generally not a problem, but it can be catastrophic with one particular cartridge in one particular application, the 6mm Bench Rest (6BR) in long range shooting.

Lapua and Norma both make excellent quality brass for this cartridge. The brass is also thinner than most to increase case capacity. When you stoke up the load to sling 105-115 grain 6mm bullets, you can rupture cases and blow stuff up. I know of two cases where this happened. Once in Wisconsin and another down south. Both were very experienced competitive shooters so it is doubtful that they did something stupid.

The solution is simple. Either hang a new barrel on it, or pull the original and have the bolt/breech face clearance tightened up by taking a piss cut on the shoulder of the barrel tennon. This would also require touching up the chamber with a reamer so as to bring the gun back into proper headspace. (Headspace is the distance from the datum line on the shoulder of the cartridge to its case head.) Excessive is dangerous because it can lead to case head separation. Too tight is dangerous because people seem to like to force things and this can mean smoking a round through your reloading bench or your foot or worse. . .)

The obvious answer is probably to back off the load or change to a tougher brass. Unfortunately neither works well when attempting to use the 6mm BR in 600 and 1000 yard prone matches.

Now, your next point. The 6XC cartridge.

I've known David Tubb for about 8 years now. He's marketed this cartridge and pioneered its use here in the states.

He is not the developer though. It's a hybrid of the 6mm International which has been around since the mid 50's. Two other guys dreamed up the 6X in the late 90's. David ran with it, changed it just a little bit, and then called it the 6XC so as not to be billed a total copy cat. There's more to it, but thats the nutshell version.

This cartridge (the 6XC) became increasingly popular around 2001-2002 when another cartridge came onto the scene. The 6mm X 47 Swiss Match.

I have the claim on that one. Below is the first rifle ever chambered in the cartridge here in the US. I built it in December/January of 2001.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ 6X47Rifle.jpg

The 6X47 and 6XC are very close to one another. They are tailored around the 105-115 weight class of 6mm target bullets. With a full load density, they are capable of velocities up around 3100 fps. This is quite good for bullets this heavy.

(One must remember that heavier bullets require a higher rotation rate in the barrel. At 3100 fps the bullet is actually spinning at 279,000 rpm with a 1-8 rate of twist barrel. These bullets typically use what is called J4 jacket material. A fancy term for bubble gum wrapper thin copper. The centrifugal force at this rpm is tremendous and it's about the limit before things start flying apart in flight.)

I brought the 6X47SM from Europe. I had made friends with an associate from the Swiss 300meter team and he was picking once fired brass from the ranges and mailing it to me. At the time, the Swiss team was keeping this cartridge very close to home.

RUAG is the company that produces it. They are based out of Finland. They also own Norma. They make everything from small arms cartridges to missiles for blowing ships out of the ocean.

All in all, the Tubb is a good gun for competitive shooting. The right hand models use an Anschutz Olympic 2 stage trigger (5018 or 5022) and the ergonomics of the rifle are pretty good. It's a bolt action so lock time is quick and the AR10 magazines feed cartridges well.

Nice piece that shoots very well in almost every case.

Sorry for being so long winded. I get a little "emotional" about this stuff because its what I do for a living. This contractor thing in Iraq is just a break long enough to get back at it on my own terms. (starting a business).

Cheers.

[Scurvy]

still waiting for you to comment on the 6.5 grendel round.

[nesikachad]

I would like to know your opinions on 6.5 grendel


I've chambered a few guns and a few silhouette pistols in 6.5 Grendel.

It's a nice cartridge for repeating guns. It feeds so much nicer than the 6.5mm BR. Essentially, it's a 6mm BR stretched out a little bit. Same shoulder angle, same case taper angle.

The 6.5mm bullets are solid performers with great ballistic coefficients. (A BC is basically how much retained velocity a bullet has over the course of its flight. A bullet with a higher BC loses less velocity due to better aerodynamic design)

So, you have a light recoiling, very accurate cartridge tailor made for 600 yard and closer shooting. Almost ideal for highpower silhouette rifle competition. The 140 grain bullets give enough "oomph" to knock over the rams at 500 yards.

I'm just not sure if brass is being commercially produced yet. Might still be a true wild cat that requires lots of case preparation.

Be a fun rifle for sure.


Another option that is commercially available now is Lapua's 6.5X47. It's real close to a Grendel with one distinct advantage. it uses a small rifle primer instead of a large rifle.

This is nice because the case is stronger and less apt to "smoke" primers with hot loads. . .and the brass is commercially available from the best brass manufacturer in the world.

Just a thought. . .

[machinistone]

you should get grendel I think.

Pretty sure you can just swap uppers and switch effortlessly between 6.5 grendel and .223


Yep it's just an upper change (bolt and barrel really), but I already have a .223 AR and don't want to be swapping uppers, I would just build a second rifle.


Those are some beautiful rifles Nesika. :hail:

[addbass]

would it be more affordable to build my own rifle? like buy a mouser and then upgrade it?

[nesikachad]

Thanks.

[nesikachad]

I'd skip the Mauser personally.

They use a funky thread pitch on the actions and the lock time (time in seconds it takes for the firing pin to release from the sear and whack the primer) is pretty slow by today's standards.

If you decide to build a gun up from scratch, it will certainly cost a little more. Make no mistake of that. It will also have better components and if built properly, will shoot well and reliably in all conditions.

One thing to remember. A gun performs only as well as the ammunition run through it.

You don't run 85 through a race car engine and expect good results. $10 dollar a box import ammo probably isn't going to shoot as properly prepared handloads.

Just depends on what you want and what the checkbook will tolerate.

Good luck

[nesikachad]

If it were me, I'd find a Winchester Model 70 with the Pre 64 claw extractor.

Advantages:

Controlled round feeding
Mechancial ejection, no preload on cartridge during chambering
Very strong action
Three position safety
Open architecture trigger design that'll run wet, icy, dirty, muddy, etc. . .
Holds value
Replace the striker spring every couple years and give her hell.

Great actions.

[Scurvy]

I'm just not sure if brass is being commercially produced yet. Might still be a true wild cat that requires lots of case preparation.



Ammo is commercially available through alexander arms and Wolf.

I believe reloading dies are out there somewhere too.

[nesikachad]

Sweet, as long as it isn't junk I say run with it!

Surely Redding is making dies by now.

[uke]

Wow, lotta nice rifles in this thread.

I just hope they don't get labeled as "deadly sniper assault killing rifles" in the next few years and be deemed illegal.

I'm going to get me a rifle someday, but nothing approaching near as fancy as what nesikachad likes. Heck, I just want to get an AR15 (watches nesikachad die from shock :D) :wall:

[nesikachad]

MUST reading:

Unintended Consequences. Best damn book ever written.

[72/04 GTO]

My favorite round presently is the 308 Norma magnum.

Hard to find quality ammo though.

[nesikachad]

Might check Black Hills Ammunition.

Not sure, but they may load for that.

[72/04 GTO]

Might check Black Hills Ammunition.

Not sure, but they may load for that.

I'll check.

The only one I found so far is www.qual-cart.com

[TLS_Addict]

If it were me, I'd find a Winchester Model 70 with the Pre 64 claw extractor.

Advantages:

Controlled round feeding
Mechancial ejection, no preload on cartridge during chambering
Very strong action
Three position safety
Open architecture trigger design that'll run wet, icy, dirty, muddy, etc. . .
Holds value
Replace the striker spring every couple years and give her hell.

Great actions.

I hunt with a Winchester Model 70. However it is not the PRE-64. Its the newer version (before they switched back to the pre-64) and I have also hunted with pre-64's. Both are good, the pre-64 ejects the shells further than the newer version. Cant recall off the top of my head but wasnt the newer action built with some Remmington influence? Maybe you can answer you are very knowledgable.

I would stick with 30 cal. if it was me. Easy to find GREAT bullets to re-load and they are reasonably priced. Also the majority of hunters use a 30 cal of some sort so if you get somewhere and are out of shells you may be able to bum some off another hunter.

I would also look in to reloading if you plan to do a lot of shooting. Buy yourself a few books, get the dies, buy some bullets, primers, reamer, and go to work. MUCH more accurate when you play around with different loads.

I think my ex did that.......thats why she got rid of me. I wasnt accurate! haha

[nesikachad]

I know Winchester went to an action design that was essentially a Remington with a three position safety.

It was a push feed design, sliding extractor milled into the bolt face (Nesika is the same way).

In my opinion, they (Winchester) went cheap. The old Model 70 was/is a great action. Very tough, smooth, and highly accurate when fitted properly to a good barrel. The new ones could be made to shoot just as well, it's just that so many of the great features of the old push feed design were given up because it cost more to build them that way. Its unfortunate because so many firearms companies have gone this way. Elegance and cosmetics are distant afterthoughts. Todays mass produced rifles are just down right ugly and clunky in most cases.

It's too bad.

I guess the market and the liability in today's world drives it.

[John Doe]

I just purchased a Rem 700 CDL and had the action glass bedding and reduced the trigger pull. I have been very happy with it and even with my pathetic shooting ability was able to muster a 1" 5 shot group at 100. I debated for a while on what caliber to get, as I already had a .30/06 but wanted a flatter shooter that I could hunt both PA whitetails and string out for Elk if I ever hit the lottery so I went with .270.

I looked at the new WSM a lot, but heard various reports that if you like to shoot, and I do, that they are prone to bore wear due to the high velocities over time. There was also some concern about long term OTC ammunition availability due to Winchester being defunct. After looking at it, I probably should have gone with a magnum in either 7mm or 300 but those calibers are pretty excessive for whitetail size game which will make up 99.99% of my hunting.

[nesikachad]

I'll never chamber another gun in 300 WSM.

A few years ago a guy filed a lawsuit against Winchester because he patented the chamber dimensions a few years earlier. Several companies went up against this guy, mine included.

We lost. Winchester was forced to pay some sort of royalty and every rifle chambered in the caliber from that point on was/is taxed with a 15% fee for using the caliber.

This is retarded since the guy didn't invent anything.

This caliber has been around in various forms for years.

So, Mr.WSM man can make his money somewhere else.

[04JRB]

I have bought 2 rifles recently.

A remington 700 chambered .270 sporter barrel (hunting) and a Savage 12 bull barrel in .223. (target+varmint)

The remington has a wonderful action, nicer to look at and a great shooter. But, its sux now with ammo prices at about 1.50 a shot ( this gun loves winchester ballistic silvertip).

The Savage is a more accurate gun, think of overlapping bullet holes at 200 yds. It isnt much to look at though. The Accutrigger is outstanding, but the action doesnt feel quite as nice. it is much cheaper to shoot though being a .223. THe 700 is a great gun and is my first choice for hunting out of 10 .30 cal rifles that I own.

If I could combine the features of the savage I like and the features of the 700 I like, other than chamberings, I would have my ideal rifle.



What you really need to ask yourself is: what are you going to use it for? hunting? target? Next is what caliber you want. I think there are better calibers than .308 for hunting, at least in michigan. Remember the cost of ammo if you are target shooting, 60 rounds in 30 cal can and probably will cost 60+ bucks. If you load your own ammo, the cost is much reduced and the accuracy will evolve with your recipies, and I enjoy doing it too.

I sympathize with the O.P., buying a new rifle is always a fun and exiting yet tough descision to make. and sometimes expensive too.

Good luck with your decision and purchase.

[nesikachad]

I have bought 2 rifles recently.

A remington 700 chambered .270 sporter barrel (hunting) and a Savage 12 bull barrel in .223. (target+varmint)

The remington has a wonderful action, nicer to look at and a great shooter. But, its sux now with ammo prices at about 1.50 a shot ( this gun loves winchester ballistic silvertip).

The Savage is a more accurate gun, think of overlapping bullet holes at 200 yds. It isnt much to look at though. The Accutrigger is outstanding, but the action doesnt feel quite as nice. it is much cheaper to shoot though being a .223. THe 700 is a great gun and is my first choice for hunting out of 10 .30 cal rifles that I own.

If I could combine the features of the savage I like and the features of the 700 I like, other than chamberings, I would have my ideal rifle.



What you really need to ask yourself is: what are you going to use it for? hunting? target? Next is what caliber you want. I think there are better calibers than .308 for hunting, at least in michigan. Remember the cost of ammo if you are target shooting, 60 rounds in 30 cal can and probably will cost 60+ bucks. If you load your own ammo, the cost is much reduced and the accuracy will evolve with your recipies, and I enjoy doing it too.

I sympathize with the O.P., buying a new rifle is always a fun and exiting yet tough descision to make. and sometimes expensive too.

Good luck with your decision and purchase.


Aaah hell. Get that Visa out and lean on the pen. . .

[nesikachad]

This is the neatest little Remington I've ever built for someone.

280 Ackley Improved sheep gun.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ DSC_0099.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ Stoney280AIboltstop.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ DSC_0100.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ DSC_0096.jpg

Guess I should apologize for hijacking this thread too.

Hope it hasn't been too annoying.

[John Doe]

This is the neatest little Remington I've ever built for someone.

280 Ackley Improved sheep gun.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ DSC_0099.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ Stoney280AIboltstop.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ DSC_0100.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ DSC_0096.jpg

Guess I should apologize for hijacking this thread too.

Hope it hasn't been too annoying.

That's a beaut, what do you like for scopes? I've tried many, Leupold, Zeiss, Swarovsky, but always come back to Nikon. I've always had great results with their Monarchs or Buckmasters Series, very clear, great light and the price is awesome, around $400.

[nesikachad]

Optics for me:

US Optic (Brutal tough and pricey)
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ DSC_0012.jpg
Nightforce (good glass, reasonable durability)
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ 22250varmint1.jpg
Schmidt Bender (great glass and you pay for it too)
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ DSC_0041-1.jpg
Swarovski (good glass, a bit dainty in durability) (Sorry, no more pictures)
Zeiss (GREAT glass, but fragile)
Leupold (Great quality and value)
Nikon (decent, just don't go in extreme cold weather with it)


Tasko (meh)
Springfield Armory (JUNK!!)
Simmons (double meh)

[TLS_Addict]

The only GOOD simmons is the Aetec.....my I put them on my cheapo hunting guns so if I drop them I dont get mad.....lol Some of them last and some dont.

I have champaign taste a beer budget though so do what you can I guess....lol

[04JRB]

Aaah hell. Get that Visa out and lean on the pen. . .

LoL, at least the cards I have recieve points for purchases. Now Im looking for another shotgun, a cheap one for clays and pheasant. probably a 870 express.

Nice workstation by the way, I aspire to have something that nice someday.

[StormSigma]

Nesikachad, thanks for "hijacking this thread" as you said above, reading your posts has been fascinating, quite frankly. I don't know much about rifles, but love reading solid info about subjects I'm unknowledgeable in. So, for what it's worth, please feel free to continue posting info and pics in this thread.

[nesikachad]

Thanks guys. This is one subject that I'm pretty comfortable with. At least in the narrow portion of it that I know about.

I don't even pretend to know much about lots of different types of guns. Its just too broad of a subject. I've narrowed my focus to the manufacturers that I deal with most. Some are probably names that most have never heard of as they are mostly german and swiss manufacturers.

Regarding that work station.

I have a good friend who used to be a maintenance guy for all the ritzy restaurants in downtown CO Springs. He was cleaning out his warehouse one day and called me up about that bench.

How could I refuse?

My point is, if you are a reloader, perhaps take a drive sometime to a restaurant supply warehouse and see what they have piled up out back. Might get lucky. . .

Another great resource is Grizzly Industrial Supply. You can pick up a genuine butcher block maple work surface pretty reasonable there. It's what I'm doing my whole shop in when I get home.

[shrike]

Why would I think that it sucks? A Tubb 2K? A Tubb 2K with a "Texas Tall Boy" front ladder sight and a Warner rear sight.

It was designed by David Tubb, a US National Champion match and long range shooter. (He's won several times over, at least 12 that I know of) It's manufactured by the Mcmillan Brothers. Kelly McMillan and Dick Davis offered me the production manager position in their company in 2005 because of the back log they had. I politely declined the offer.

Nice guns for NRA Match Rifle category.

I've worked on a few of these.

There are some things to look out for though.

The Tubb 2K has a little more unsupported case than most guns. This is generally not a problem, but it can be catastrophic with one particular cartridge in one particular application, the 6mm Bench Rest (6BR) in long range shooting.

Lapua and Norma both make excellent quality brass for this cartridge. The brass is also thinner than most to increase case capacity. When you stoke up the load to sling 105-115 grain 6mm bullets, you can rupture cases and blow stuff up. I know of two cases where this happened. Once in Wisconsin and another down south. Both were very experienced competitive shooters so it is doubtful that they did something stupid.

The solution is simple. Either hang a new barrel on it, or pull the original and have the bolt/breech face clearance tightened up by taking a piss cut on the shoulder of the barrel tennon. This would also require touching up the chamber with a reamer so as to bring the gun back into proper headspace. (Headspace is the distance from the datum line on the shoulder of the cartridge to its case head.) Excessive is dangerous because it can lead to case head separation. Too tight is dangerous because people seem to like to force things and this can mean smoking a round through your reloading bench or your foot or worse. . .)

The obvious answer is probably to back off the load or change to a tougher brass. Unfortunately neither works well when attempting to use the 6mm BR in 600 and 1000 yard prone matches.

Now, your next point. The 6XC cartridge.

I've known David Tubb for about 8 years now. He's marketed this cartridge and pioneered its use here in the states.

He is not the developer though. It's a hybrid of the 6mm International which has been around since the mid 50's. Two other guys dreamed up the 6X in the late 90's. David ran with it, changed it just a little bit, and then called it the 6XC so as not to be billed a total copy cat. There's more to it, but thats the nutshell version.

This cartridge (the 6XC) became increasingly popular around 2001-2002 when another cartridge came onto the scene. The 6mm X 47 Swiss Match.

I have the claim on that one. Below is the first rifle ever chambered in the cartridge here in the US. I built it in December/January of 2001.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ 6X47Rifle.jpg

The 6X47 and 6XC are very close to one another. They are tailored around the 105-115 weight class of 6mm target bullets. With a full load density, they are capable of velocities up around 3100 fps. This is quite good for bullets this heavy.

(One must remember that heavier bullets require a higher rotation rate in the barrel. At 3100 fps the bullet is actually spinning at 279,000 rpm with a 1-8 rate of twist barrel. These bullets typically use what is called J4 jacket material. A fancy term for bubble gum wrapper thin copper. The centrifugal force at this rpm is tremendous and it's about the limit before things start flying apart in flight.)

I brought the 6X47SM from Europe. I had made friends with an associate from the Swiss 300meter team and he was picking once fired brass from the ranges and mailing it to me. At the time, the Swiss team was keeping this cartridge very close to home.

RUAG is the company that produces it. They are based out of Finland. They also own Norma. They make everything from small arms cartridges to missiles for blowing ships out of the ocean.

All in all, the Tubb is a good gun for competitive shooting. The right hand models use an Anschutz Olympic 2 stage trigger (5018 or 5022) and the ergonomics of the rifle are pretty good. It's a bolt action so lock time is quick and the AR10 magazines feed cartridges well.

Nice piece that shoots very well in almost every case.

Sorry for being so long winded. I get a little "emotional" about this stuff because its what I do for a living. This contractor thing in Iraq is just a break long enough to get back at it on my own terms. (starting a business).

Cheers.

OK, I'll just call you professor from now on!:hail:

thanks -

[TLS_Addict]

I like the 30-06 Ackley improved over the 7mm. Bigger bullet selection if you want to shoot heaver bullets. My question is this.....why do an Ackley Improved when there are already cases made for regular production calliburs that outperform you wildcats?

Honestly before I would do an Ackley Improved 280 I would get a 7mm Ultramag. Same with the 30-06 Ackley Improved.....just by a 300 magnum, or a 300 ultramag.

Amo is EVERYWHERE and if you want to reload you can. But to be different the Ackley Improved is nice......or get a 7mm STW and your within 30 fps imv.

Nice looking weapon though you built though.

[Motorcity Muscle]

The guys with really expensive rifles won't even let you now they have them. Let alone post pics of them..

The Remington 700 in .308 is an excellent rifle for target shooting and field use.

Agreed - i like the .308 as a general rule, regardless of make. Rifle, that is. I still like my 240gr .44 mag for close quarter engagements.
man, such good gun insterest and advice here!!!

[nesikachad]

I like the 30-06 Ackley improved over the 7mm. Bigger bullet selection if you want to shoot heaver bullets. My question is this.....why do an Ackley Improved when there are already cases made for regular production calliburs that outperform you wildcats?

Honestly before I would do an Ackley Improved 280 I would get a 7mm Ultramag. Same with the 30-06 Ackley Improved.....just by a 300 magnum, or a 300 ultramag.

Amo is EVERYWHERE and if you want to reload you can. But to be different the Ackley Improved is nice......or get a 7mm STW and your within 30 fps imv.

Nice looking weapon though you built though.



Ackley cartridges have been around loooong before the high velocity SAAMI approved stuff that has come out over the last ten/twenty years.

PO Ackley was doing his thing back in the 40's. Hell, I think even earlier than that to be honest.

I've built 7 STW's. Barrel scorchers. I don't care for belted magnums too much. More work to chamber, they don't feed as nice as a non belted, and the belt just gets tore up anyways when its in a magazine fed gun, makes precision reloading more work.

It doesn't really do anything either.

[archerm3]

I can't believe the OP cant find a brand new Rem 700 less than 800 bucks. I bought a browning stalker for 450 from Cabelas, Brand new. Rugers are running around 500, at Cabelas.

.308 is a fine caliber, as all the others.

Just remember, you got to tune your ammo to your gun, so opinions about a certain brand's accuracy have to be taken with a grain of salt, as not everybody is capable of what they "claim" to have done, and not everybody fully tests all the kinds of ammo in each barrel.

[nesikachad]

I can tell you that NO ONE tests every particular bullet/case/powder combination.

They'd still be testing. . .

You hang around this stuff long enough and you discover that some stuff just works cause it always works while other stuff has more drama involved with it.

Case in point. If you buy a 308 with a 1-10 barrel and it doesn't shoot Federal White Box Premium with 168 grain Sierra bullets, your rifle is junk.

The stuff always shoots well in anything put together properly.