Holden Vs. HSV?

[OldGoatee]

I need an international tutorial (and before the Search Gestapo schlong me, I did try to search for clues). I have visited both the Holden and HSV websites (tremendously interesting!), but that left me with even more questions. How does HSV relate to Holden proper? Obviously they are the high performance arm of Holden, but are the HSV cars built totally independently of Holden production, or are they pulled off the Holden line at some point for HSV modifications? Each HSV car seems to be individually numbered with a unique ID plate. I assume our US GTOs are built by Holden rather than HSV (at least my build plate says Holden Ltd). But if I go to the Holden website, they describe the latest Monaro CV8 with what sounds like last year's US GTO Gen III 5.7 litre engine. And on the HSV website, the current specs for THEIR Z-Series GTO describe it with the Gen IV 6.0 litre engine. Beyond the obvious cosmetic/visual stuff, how does the US '05 GTO differ from the HSV GTO? And where does that Vauxhall car I have been reading about in the Forum fall in the scheme of things? TIA for educating me!
:angel:

[isszy]

In the early 80's, a local Holden touring car driver named Peter Brock started a performance company and with Holden's backing produced the first Commodore SS. The main purpose for this was for homologation for cars for what was then the Group C touring car championship. This company was called the Holden Dealer Team (HDT) and even today an HDT Commodore is a sought after vehicle. All cars came off the Holden production line as shells and were shipped to HDT's production facility in Port Melbourne.

Unfortunately Peter (who is now 60 and is still racing and has been my hero since I was 6) got involved in some hocus pocus witchcraft with a strange chiropractor and insisted that all of his cars needed a 'polariser', a goo filled box placed under the bonnet to align the molecules or something.

This was a bit too way out for GM, who when they could not convince Peter to remove them, severed all ties with HDT.

This left Holden with no performance arm, so Englishman Tom Walkinshaw, who had been to Australia the year before to race a Jaguar in what had become the Group A touring car championship, invested heavily in a Holden backed performance arm called Holden Special Vehicles (HSV).

Walkinshaw has since parted company, but the company still has extremely close ties to Holden. I am not sure of exact details of ownership at the moment, as both HSV and HRT (Holden Racing Team) have changed owners recently (Ford actually owned part of them at one point through Walkinshaw's Tickford involvement)

Partly completed cars are shipped from Adelaide to Clayton, where HSV occupy what was Nissan's old production plant.

[MarkII]

In addition to Isszy's post:

the Vauxhall GTO is a HSV GTO with Vauxhall badges.

The 'core car' is built with steel 15" rims and no badging and transported to Clayton Victoria. At that stage it has standard 6-cyl Holden brakes, stock V8 exhaust, tyres, suspension etc. These parts are apparently recycled. By law the cars most be complete when they leave the line and they move under their own power to the transporters.

The HSV GTS (not currently made) got a Callaway-modified 400hp motor and more extreme suspension/wheels/6-piston AP callipers etc. The Coupe GTS will do near-180mph, and done low 12 second quarters in the hands of owners.

The LS2 version is what you get. Holden get LS1s to provide an 'upsell' to HSV. We get a lesser cam in Holdens except for the current Monaro, which gets the GTO cam and lower-first M6. Other Holdens get closer-ratio Tremec box.

A HSV, as you can see from their site, gets louder, less restrictive pipes, their own cold-air box, bodykit/badging, bigger brakes with calliper upgrade to 4 or 6-piston depending on model, Koni adjustable suspension for the R8 Clubsport and GTS, and revised engine callibration and MAF-less tune for GTS. They get bigger wheels and super-sticky trackday compound tyres in the Clubby R8/GTS.

The HSV versions of the coupe gets faster steering rack ratio.

HSV parts gradually eventually trickle down to Holden, but a HSV model of any year car will always be quicker and faster with better springing/damping/braking. Some get better racing-style seats, too.

Basically they are performance and appearance modified hotrodded cars with a warranty that are still very practical. They have a fair amount of street-cred as they are dear to buy, although many deride the owners as Mullet- and moccassin-wearing, beer gutted midlife crisisers :gr_jest:

The bodywork is not for me, but I could live with the performance bits!

Holden 100% owns HSV, but like GM and Holdens' relationship, day-day HSV manages itself.

[paco04]

Is it like the marriage between Mercedes and AMG ?

[isszy]

Is it like the marriage between Mercedes and AMG ?

Close enough.

[SKPGTO4]

In addition to Isszy's post:


The HSV GTS (not currently made) got a Callaway-modified 400hp motor and more extreme suspension/wheels/6-piston AP callipers etc. The Coupe GTS will do near-180mph, and done low 12 second quarters in the hands of owners.

Holden get LS1s to provide an 'upsell' to HSV. We get a lesser cam in Holdens except for the current Monaro,


but a HSV model of any year car will always be quicker and faster with better springing/damping/braking. Some get better racing-style seats, too.

They have a fair amount of street-cred as they are dear to buy, although many deride the owners as Mullet- and moccassin-wearing, beer gutted midlife crisisers :gr_jest:

Holden 100% owns HSV, but like GM and Holdens' relationship, day-day HSV manages itself.
Hello mates from across the pond if you will :-patriot:
1. With all thus in mind we then who own the 2004 version vehicles could probably get the upgrades as the GTS and such because both use the same LS1 v-8 engines.
2.Now are all the parts symetrical as far as part to part due to the left hand drive compared to your right hand drive cars??
3. If yes, Start handing out part numbers. :driving:

[MarkII]

You can buy the Konis and AP brake parts (or equivalent) for less than HSV sells you. HSV just rebands a comercially available short-primary header. There are better available. Any competent dyno tuner with LS1Edit can give you the same or better tune than HSV. Your exhaust laws are not as tough as ours - so you can buy probably less restrictive systems. This (and intake via a straight MAF pipe) is where the power is in a LS1. You get a better cam than our LS1s.

Holden dealers won't sell HSV parts to anyone even in Oz without a HSV VIN registered to you. There are pattern parts available.

[Kiwi Jack]

Yes the GTO is from Holden. Not HSV.The price would push it out of the US market. Also HSV could not build the numbers for the US. Its a real shame though because HSVs are another level up from Holden, both in looks and performance. Hope this all makes sence. If you guys like the Holdens/GTOs/Vaxhalls, then you would absolutely love the HSV product.

[Odin]

I need an international tutorial (and before the Search Gestapo schlong me, I did try to search for clues). I have visited both the Holden and HSV websites (tremendously interesting!), but that left me with even more questions. How does HSV relate to Holden proper? Obviously they are the high performance arm of Holden, but are the HSV cars built totally independently of Holden production, or are they pulled off the Holden line at some point for HSV modifications? Each HSV car seems to be individually numbered with a unique ID plate. I assume our US GTOs are built by Holden rather than HSV (at least my build plate says Holden Ltd). But if I go to the Holden website, they describe the latest Monaro CV8 with what sounds like last year's US GTO Gen III 5.7 litre engine. And on the HSV website, the current specs for THEIR Z-Series GTO describe it with the Gen IV 6.0 litre engine. Beyond the obvious cosmetic/visual stuff, how does the US '05 GTO differ from the HSV GTO? And where does that Vauxhall car I have been reading about in the Forum fall in the scheme of things? TIA for educating me!
:angel:

this is a bit old, but its a good pictorial guide as to how a holden becomes a hsv, they work together very closely.

http://www.hsv.com.au/bmenu.asp?link=cars/vx2/coup e/production/pictorial.html

[Odin]

The HSV GTS (not currently made) got a Callaway-modified 400hp motor and more extreme suspension/wheels/6-piston AP callipers etc. The Coupe GTS will do near-180mph, and done low 12 second quarters in the hands of owners.



I'm pretty sure the GTS coupe is still being made, however only, by customer order. So custom made almost.

[Woz]

I'm pretty sure the GTS coupe is still being made, however only, by customer order. So custom made almost.

They were always built to order but not anymore unfortunately.

[OldGoatee]

Thanks all for your MOST interesting responses to my initial enquiry - very educational! Plus it gives all of us here on the other side of the world a much better understanding as to the real heritage behind our "Pontiacs". And this identifies our locally grown idiot car magazine writers who bad-mouthed the GTO for what they really are: ignoramuses of the first water. Our GTOs are unique in the US market: there is nothing remotely comparable.

[SKPGTO4]

just checked them out, and those HSV vehicles are bad ass, why dont they bring over than awd version of the Goat??? for the extra 350 pounds and same power outputs for another 5-10 k is worth it! The only big concern is if you build it can it handle the power and if not, do they make a heavier duty part to replace it with?? :burnout: Great cars thanks for the link!!

[Holeshot]

Im thinking of putting the Monaro rear quarter badges on my Goat ( The ones in front of the rear wheels) and the CV8 badge one the boot and removing 5.7

[Sk8fe]

isszy, MarkII, KiwiJack, Odin, Woz (and other gurus in the know :)):

Can anyone identify for me what "R8 Clubsport", "GTS" or "pro" suspension upgrades I would need for my GTO to give it V8 Supercars class suspension? :)

I just got a 2005 GTO a month ago and I absolutely love it! I've been waiting for this car for a very long time. :) I enjoy going to the track (road course) for Driver Ed. events and Seat-time days. It is non-competitive, but I enjoy it, its like a hobby (or rather addiction!)... My goal is in a year or two to either buy a used 04 GTO (coming off lease or whatever) or to turn my 05 into a dedicated track car. Since it will be trailered to/from the track, ULTRA rock-hard track suspension is the goal. :) I love the V8 Supercars series, I follow it as best I can from across the pond as Speed (formally SpeedVision) only airs the series in a compressed format in December & January. :( As a hobby/project, I want to slowly turn my (to be) used 04 GTO back into the Holden it is; albeit RHD; honor HRT and make my own 2-door version of a V8 Supercar clone. :) I saw that Gravana Tuning sells AP-Racing 6-piston front/4-piston rear caliper brake kits and I can get an HRT-styled front clip (bumper & front air splitter) from RMR. I can't seem to find a "Stage 3" track suspension kit for the GTO here in the States, so any help you can provide me in compiling a list of track caliber suspension bits would be greatly appreciated! :)

Although suspension was mention, this question/request may "stray" from the original intent of the thread, so please feel free to PM me if you like. Thanks!

Tom

[OldGoatee]

this is a bit old, but its a good pictorial guide as to how a holden becomes a hsv, they work together very closely.

http://www.hsv.com.au/bmenu.asp?link=cars/vx2/coup e/production/pictorial.html

Thanks for the link - it's endlessly interesting. Is this a great Forum, or what? I was especially amused by the step in the HSV build where they spray (microdots?) of "HSV DNA" all over the car so the car and its pieces are always identifiable as HSV products. Actually, should I forget to wear my undergarments, I would also spray DNA of a different sort whenever I make that stupendous sounding 2nd-to-3rd-gear shift near max revs.

For those of us over here, I did subsequently find another link to a very useful Monaro history summary:
http://www.geocities.com/monaroshrine/monarohistor y.html

[MarkII]

isszy, MarkII, KiwiJack, Odin, Woz (and other gurus in the know :)):

Can anyone identify for me what "R8 Clubsport", "GTS" or "pro" suspension upgrades I would need for my GTO to give it V8 Supercars class suspension? :)




V8 Supercars believe it or not, all use Ford suspension!

OK, before you all cry foul, bear this in mind:

Supercars put out 600-650hp and use ceramic-pack clutches which are either 'on' or 'off'. So a 9" diff hanging off control links with a panhard rod and adjustable stabiliser bar (by lever in the ****pit) is functionally fine uder the stress, and cheaper - everyone has the same handling disadvantages a solid axle brings, but it hangs together no problesm all season.

Also, Fords 10 years ago had no IRS, so Holden teams refitted the solid axle for performance parity and it has stayed in the rules. The 427 Bathurst 24 hour Monaros used a modified lightened IRS setup with tube rosejointed double-wishbones which apparently handled way better, but it cost a mint to build to withstand 750hp. Garry Rogers Motorsport built them but people like Harrop, or Horner or a few others out could do them.

Supercars have little suspension travel, and move over very smooth high-quality racing surfaces. So IRS is an advantage but no-one has it.

The front suspension fitted to Falcs and Comodes is a modified Ford Falcon unit, which has the stock pressed steel wishbone members replaced by a bolt-on rose-jointed chromolly tubular fabrication with coilover springs. This is better for racing as it can be setup to reduce nosedive, and is totally alterable for camber and steering geometry with alternate mountings. They use pressure-cooled steering racks. The Ford and Holden are so dynamically and dimensionally close and been competing so long that the Falc crossmember almost bolts under the Commodore!

Again, it is available to all teams and provides adjustability and the same braking options.

The V8 Supercar rules are all designed for parity - both sides use the 5 litre Ford or Chevy Nascar iron motor with the same black box/revlimiter subject to substitiuton by officials at the event and running on (control) premium pump fuel. Even the aero-bodywork is carefully matched to keep the cars even. They have the same ride heights, under-body tray dimensions and so on.

The main difference is Ford V8 s Chev, plus the body. Other than a full rollcage, racing seat and three-point harness and race instruments, the stock shell is used, including 4 opening doors, boot and bonnet (hood and trunk to you) - wheelsizes are strictly controlled to fit inside the standard wheelwells. Minimum weight is about 2600lbs, which teams can achieve without much exotic material. This keeps cost of the cars down to a reasonable $US100K for a current competitive vehicle.

Go to a Koni supplier - the adjustable shocks/front units and springs will be listed, including a full race option with lower springs. There are also other options from Boge and probably Girling - I think Kayaba makes a Holden Supersport set, too. Brembo and Lockheed both make alloy four and six piston calliper kits for Holdens with 13-14" composite discs - on the Top Gear drag video with the Jaguar the GTS there has the AP callipers visible.

Some people swear by changing suspension bushings, HSV don't bother claiming it just becomes a maintenance issue. For a track car you would, though. Then there's bigger rollbars etc.

The AWD Coupe 4 has issues - weight (4,000lbs), steering on dry roads is apparently compromised, it's only available as an auto and has to be restricted for power as the drivetrain is limited for 360 hp. Plus it costs $US70K. They only made a handful. It is very fast on slippery surfaces - 0-60 in 6 seconds on dirt! Sort of a Audi competitor.

[Odin]

Thanks for the link - it's endlessly interesting. Is this a great Forum, or what? I was especially amused by the step in the HSV build where they spray (microdots?) of "HSV DNA" all over the car so the car and its pieces are always identifiable as HSV products. Actually, should I forget to wear my undergarments, I would also spray DNA of a different sort whenever I make that stupendous sounding 2nd-to-3rd-gear shift near max revs.

For those of us over here, I did subsequently find another link to a very useful Monaro history summary:
http://www.geocities.com/monaroshrine/monarohistor y.html


No probs, just sharing what I know. I think the data dots are normally encrypted with the cars VIN number. So if ever the car is stolen, the data dots can trace the car back to the owner, if it's been broken up for parts etc. They can be seen under ultraviolet light.

[isszy]

Seeing as I never let the facts get in the way of a good story, I reckon it's great to have guys like Mark, Odin, Jack and Woz to help add some reality back into my ravings...

[Sk8fe]

MarkII - Thanks! I definitely didn't know that about the V8 Supercars series. :)

Are there any tuning shops down there that specialize in suspension upgrade kits for the Monaro/GTO? There must be. I want to research and understand what is available suspension-wise for the GTO's that come over here. I am not sure about the Vendor policy for this site, so if they won't let you post those links here in this thread, PM me with them or I can PM you with my email address. Any and all help is GREATLY appreciated! :)

Although I do appreciate the insight on the V8 Supercars suspension setups since I love watching that racing series on Speed and I find that information interesting as hell; however, since this is just a hobby for me (non-competitive), I doubt I will be swapping out my IRS for a Ford 9" rear. ;) So let me ask my question a different way: what would you do to your Monaro/GTO to make it as stiff as possible for the track if you had another vehicle for daily driving and were going to tow the Monaro/GTO to/from the track (so the whole "rattle your fillings loose" was not a concern since it would not be driven on public roads)?

Components/kits I am trying to research:

Track caliber bushings kit?
Caster & Camber kits?
Upper stress bars (F/R)?
Lower sway bars (F/R)? Adjustable? Size?
Coilovers (e.g. Bilstein PSS9) vs. Adjustable shocks/struts with Lowered Springs. What pound springs for lowered springs? etc.


Again, I am just trying to understand the suspension aspect of our GTOs and to understand what is available out there. If I need to take this "offline" or to another thread let me know, I can do that. Again, I greatly appreciate your time, help and insight!

Tom

[MarkII]

HOLDEN RACING TEAM
VEHICLE Holden Racing Team Commodore VZ
ENGINE Holden Motorsport 5.0 litre fuel injected V8 Holden Racing
Team developed cylinder heads, fuel injection, intake and
exhaust system, category control MoTec engine management
control system.
EST. POWER 620 + BHP limited to maximum 7,500 RPM
GEARBOX 6-speed Holinger gearbox - Australian made
DIFFERENTIAL Motive 9”
SUSPENSION Front Holden Racing Team developed double wishbone
designed for racing with adjustable damper. ****pit
adjustable front roll bar
Rear Holden Racing Team developed. Location by four-link
parallel arms and Watts link. ****pit adjustable rear
anti roll bar.
BRAKES Front 6-piston front callipers with 375mm ventilated discs.
Rear 4-piston rear calipers with 340mm ventilated discs.
WHEELS O.Z wheels 17 inch by 11-inch magnesium alloy
TYRES Dunlop control tyre
FUEL CAPACITY 120 Litre
VEHICLE WEIGHT 1355kg (category minimum)
TOP SPEED 298kph (185mph) 0-100kph: 4.0 seconds
CAR-TO-PIT Optus digital service to Pi Research software through
Telemetry Transfer Dell computer.
SEAT Racetech
STEERING WHEEL Momo

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=11038&stc=1

Check out CAPA's website - www.capa.com.au

Their prices seem comparable to others and they have the camber kits etc.

[Sk8fe]

Awesome!
:D

[kong]

Here's a link to CSV...for those who haven't seen 'em
www.csvaustralia.com
:shiner:

[OldGoatee]

Here's a link to CSV...for those who haven't seen 'em
www.csvaustralia.com
:shiner:
Shazaaam - those Ozzies have some interesting cottage industries! That 6.5 litre Mondo GT sounds like a real brute.

[GTS_300_Coupe]

Yeah CSV are awesome!
They are like HSV except not part of Holden at all but they take a car model from Holden add their own cosmetic designs and power up the engines. (more than HSV)
But they are only a small company and not recognised well.

[Woz]

Yeah CSV are awesome!
They are like HSV except not part of Holden at all but they take a car model from Holden add their own cosmetic designs and power up the engines. (more than HSV)
But they are only a small company and not recognised well.

and if you think HSV are expensive .......

[OldGoatee]

In my www-wanderings, I've stumbled across another Oz specialist company that seems to have similar sounding roots as well: http://www.hdt.com.au/index.php
HDT Special Vehicles look like they mostly apply themselves to the Commodores, but they did show a coupe application on their website. What kind of cred do these guys have?
One of the unanticipated outcomes of buying the GTO is develooping a whole new interest in Australian machinery! Why, I have even ordered from Oz that rather pricey book on the Monaro. Cunning those Ozzies: first you buy their car, then you have to order their books......

[auzzie]

HDT's history is mentioned in the second post of this thread HDT turned into HSV.

[Odin]

From what I remember after the split between Holden and Brock, HDT changed ownership a number of times, till the current owners bought it and resurrected it somewhat.

[Alucard]

I've always wanted a SS, so eventually I bought one! Now, I want a HSV.....isn;t it always the way, you always want the next best thing.

[aussie_bloke]

I've always wanted a SS, so eventually I bought one! Now, I want a HSV.....isn;t it always the way, you always want the next best thing.
why not go straight to CSV and be happy?

not much above CSV's :D