Rear Camber Problem ... cannot be realigned within Spec!! [Archive]

I Got1

12-22-2007, 07:30 PM

Considering that I rotate my tires every 5 - 6,000 miles, it was especially frustrating to find out today that at only 15,815 miles that both of my right side tires had to be replaced. This excessive wear condition was traced to my GTO's right rear camber being out of spec at -1 7/8 degrees ... as the Specified Range is -1 5/8 -3/8 degrees ... and when my shop attemped to realign it within the "Specifed Range" they informed me that, and to quote, " The manufacturer does not specify a rear CAMBER adjustment." So WTF ... here I've got an out of spec problem that they're telling me cannot be fixed ... at least not per GM/Pontiac GTO specifications ... how can that be?

So ... has anybody else out there had a similar experience? Or a recommended "fix"?

And while I should have noticed the excessive wear, how could I have even expected this to happen when like I stated earlier ... I don't even have 16,000 miles on tires that I rotate at every 5 - 6,000 miles? BFG's are good tires, aren't they?

So, will a cross directional tire rotation every 3 to 5,000 miles as recommended by my tire dealer help counter this seemingly "unfixable" condition?

ANY/ALL thoughts or recommendations from my fellow Goat owners is certainly appreciated ... e.g. should I take this up with my Dealer?

Rob@WretchedMS

12-22-2007, 07:40 PM

The real question is this,
Is your front causing the wear or is it the rear. Since you've been rotating your tires you can only assume that it's the rear from the alignment readings. Chances are though, it's the front.

Problem with the front is the Radius rod bushings allow a ton of play from the factory, this play allows a toe change and thus wears the inside of the front tires out badly, especially under hard braking.

If it is indeed the rear, the most likely cause fo rthat is the rear springs. The stock springs have a habit of sagging, and when the rear sags, the camber goes more negative (top goes in). Replacing the rear springs with a 0 drop spring will help with that issue.

What is the ride height of the rear?
Howto in this link
http://wretchedmotorsports.com/product_info.php?pr oducts_id=62

GoatChzLS1

12-22-2007, 07:41 PM

Have you hit or bumped any curbs? I've seen alot of light curb hits in cars that damage rear components. If you haven't hit anything you can take it to the dealership under warranty. Then if they don't fix it you could get the rear camber kit that SLP sells and take it back for an alignment, hopefully that would fix it. Good Luck

Rob@WretchedMS

12-22-2007, 07:57 PM

The camber kit that SLP sells is a 4 eccentric adjuster, the problem with this is the 4 adjusters, in combination with a toe adjuster can allow the rear hub to be to close to the center of the car, and bind the halfshaft, then as a result damage the rear diff.

Rear springs, and possible a rear cradle alignment if the rear camber spread(the difference left to right) is enough.

I Got1

12-23-2007, 11:56 AM

Thanks Rob for your response ... but before I take the ride height measurements I will need to burn up some gas in order to get down to 1/4 tank as I now have an almost full tank.

and per your thoughts on the front of my car ... Pre-alignment, the Toe "Actual" was indeed out of spec at - 1/16in versus the spec of 0in 1/16in ... everythng else pre-alignment on all four wheels was indeed in spec, except ... Toe out on front right ... Camber out on rear right ...!

Post-alignment the only out of spec condition that they could not adjust was the rear camber at -1 7/8!

thanks again!

The real question is this,
Is your front causing the wear or is it the rear. Since you've been rotating your tires you can only assume that it's the rear from the alignment readings. Chances are though, it's the front.

Problem with the front is the Radius rod bushings allow a ton of play from the factory, this play allows a toe change and thus wears the inside of the front tires out badly, especially under hard braking.

If it is indeed the rear, the most likely cause fo rthat is the rear springs. The stock springs have a habit of sagging, and when the rear sags, the camber goes more negative (top goes in). Replacing the rear springs with a 0 drop spring will help with that issue.

What is the ride height of the rear?
Howto in this link
http://wretchedmotorsports.com/product_info.php?pr oducts_id=62

Rob@WretchedMS

12-23-2007, 12:02 PM

This is a Pedders Day at Victory Racing Engines, they are testing the OE radius rod bushings on GTO's

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xLFsuPW2Vlo

I Got1

12-23-2007, 12:05 PM

Nice thought but no hits or bumps into any curbs!

Regarding the Dealer ... I guess that an actual stop by the day or so after Christmas is in order versus just a phone call!

And lastly ... regarding the SLP rear camber kit, that's a nice idea but can they cause any related problems to differential or drivetrain? and how complicated is the install?

Thanks for your reply ...

Have you hit or bumped any curbs? I've seen alot of light curb hits in cars that damage rear components. If you haven't hit anything you can take it to the dealership under warranty. Then if they don't fix it you could get the rear camber kit that SLP sells and take it back for an alignment, hopefully that would fix it. Good Luck

I Got1

12-23-2007, 12:42 PM

Nice thought but no hits or bumps into any curbs!

Regarding the Dealer ... I guess that an actual stop by the day or so after Christmas is in order versus just a phone call!

And lastly ... regarding the rear camber kits, that's a nice idea but can they cause any related problems to differential or drivetrain? and how complicated is the install? and how about SLP versus Pedders ... any preference or history with either?

Thanks for your reply ...

Have you hit or bumped any curbs? I've seen alot of light curb hits in cars that damage rear components. If you haven't hit anything you can take it to the dealership under warranty. Then if they don't fix it you could get the rear camber kit that SLP sells and take it back for an alignment, hopefully that would fix it. Good Luck

Rob@WretchedMS

12-23-2007, 12:52 PM

Neither the SLP or the Pedders adjusters are the best option for you, yet. If you have sagged stock springs you need to replace the springs before you worry about the camber adjusters.

socal gto

12-23-2007, 04:40 PM

Seriously check the springs. I just replaced my sagging ass rear springs and there is enough of a difference to see while looking at the back of the car.

My First GTO

12-23-2007, 05:01 PM

In most cases NEW Rear springs Will help with what You have....frank

I Got1

12-24-2007, 11:23 AM

Thanks and once I get down to 1/4 tank of gas I will re-take the measurements cuz with almost a full tank the rears measured right at 575 mm on both sides versus the 604 mm spec' ... and I have the 17 inch wheels.

Now for another question, the fronts were a little low at 590 mm versus the 595 mm spec' ... so if the rears are also low, would it be a good idea to go ahead and change out both front AND rear springs? I saw a decent deal on all four from Pedders ... OR would you have yet another helpful recommendation?

Thank you again for your helpful suggestions and MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Neither the SLP or the Pedders adjusters are the best option for you, yet. If you have sagged stock springs you need to replace the springs before you worry about the camber adjusters.

Rob@WretchedMS

12-24-2007, 11:53 AM

If you were to replace the rear springs it's a good idea to replace the fronts for no other reason than the springs should be matched. The strut mounts and bearings should also be replaced if you do the front springs,

Our prices go up at midnight, so if you are going to buy, tonights the night.

Duckman

12-24-2007, 12:49 PM

If this car is still under warranty, insist the dealer fix the car. If the car is out of warranty have a different shop look at the alignment. It wouldnt be the first time two different alignment shops comeback with different numbers. You should not need a camber kit with stock springs.
GM measures ride height at different points then Peddars (Shop Manual page 3-14, they also specify a full tank of gas. There is a solid 20 MM spread on what GM states as acceptable. Off the top of my head thats about 3/4" before the springs would require replacement. Your car would be sitting like it had drop springs in it. I would definetely get a second opinion before I started changing parts...when nothing more then an adjustment was required.

I Got1

12-24-2007, 05:57 PM

:cool: Yes, I'm still covered under this extended warranty, which does not expire until 06/25/2011 ... so ... after reading what this "Agreement Does Not Cover", the only suspension repairs & parts not covered are limited to tires, alignments, wheel balancing, cross member and shock absorbers ... so I should be covered for all of the rest of the identifiable suspension problems like springs, radius rods, bushings and the rest of the "etc., etc.'s" ... right?

So it's back to the Dealer for me!! Ya gotta like those extended warranties when they work! :cool:

Thanks a lot for your reply to my problem ...

If this car is still under warranty, insist the dealer fix the car. If the car is out of warranty have a different shop look at the alignment. It wouldnt be the first time two different alignment shops comeback with different numbers. You should not need a camber kit with stock springs.
GM measures ride height at different points then Peddars (Shop Manual page 3-14, they also specify a full tank of gas. There is a solid 20 MM spread on what GM states as acceptable. Off the top of my head thats about 3/4" before the springs would require replacement. Your car would be sitting like it had drop springs in it. I would definetely get a second opinion before I started changing parts...when nothing more then an adjustment was required.

Rob@WretchedMS

12-24-2007, 06:06 PM

good luck

I Got1

12-24-2007, 08:34 PM

I'll keep ya'll posted ...

good luck

TurkeyHawk

12-24-2007, 08:44 PM

If this car is still under warranty, insist the dealer fix the car.

:cool: Yes, I'm still covered under this extended warranty, which does not expire until 06/25/2011 ... so ... after reading what this "Agreement Does Not Cover", the only suspension repairs & parts not covered are limited to tires, alignments, wheel balancing, cross member and shock absorbers ... so I should be covered for all of the rest of the identifiable suspension problems like springs, radius rods, bushings and the rest of the "etc., etc.'s" ... right? Wrong!

So it's back to the Dealer for me!! Ya gotta like those extended warranties when they work! They Don't!

Thanks a lot for your reply to my problem ...

Not to pee on the parade, but good luck with that. Zero chance you're gonna convince the dealer that your >16,000 mile GTO needs new rear springs, and while they're at it new front springs and radius rod bushes and struts and or strut tops etc etc etc.

Your new here aren't you? Let it keep eating tires but help it by cross rotating or get ready to spend about $2500-$4500 to not only fix it but totally transform the driving experience and performance. OK, I guess I pee'd a little?

Duckman

12-25-2007, 05:22 AM

I will agree with Turkeyhawk that expecting the dealer to replace all of that under warranty is never going to happen. However he paid for warranty. The only thing this car may need is a $100 alignment by someone with a clue to fix his tire wear and camber problem.

Rob@WretchedMS

12-25-2007, 06:12 AM

Can't fix the problems he has with an alignment,

My First GTO

12-25-2007, 07:26 AM

Can't fix the problems he has with an alignment,

As rob said an alignment Won't Fix his Problem. He needs New Parts in the car GM or Our parts But parts Must be replaced, His Major problem will be the Dealership Not Knowing the Bad or weak points of our Car.....Frank

Duckman

12-25-2007, 09:26 AM

Gentleman,
None of us has physically seen the car. I merely advise him to use his warranty first, and have the alignment checked again on different equipment. This is the least expensive approach to start with. If in fact his camber is out that much then parts replacement is required. I would rather throw away $100 on a second opinion then guessing on what is actually wrong with the car. Not every GTO suffers from spring sag,strut rub, bad struts and strut mounts. I have 70K and suffer from none of this...the car still aligns with in spec. Would you spend money on repairing a Televison under warranty? Absolutely not.

Rob@WretchedMS

12-25-2007, 04:19 PM

No offense, but your opinion is wrong.

I'm sure I could show you at least 3 problems that your GTO has, and i'm sure that Frank could do the same.

Taking your care to another show that doesn't know what they are looking at will only cost money and not solve anything.

Edit:
I have 70K and suffer from none of this..

you have replaced the radius rod bushings and the tie rods already....

cmischke

12-25-2007, 05:48 PM

Igot1 listen to these pedders guys. my car wore tires bad 1st 16k miles. Had a pedders trackII kit w/1" drop front,1/2" rear, camber bushes and all the other necessary bushes. Spent some coin but the difference is unbelievable from stock and I've got 18k on staggered set of tires 275/35/18 rear 245/40/18 front NO uneven wear on any and only half tread gone on rears only about 1/4 gone on fronts. I figure I'll have to buy rears before summer but fronts should make it through the year. In tire wear alone you will make up a good bit of the cost of the kit if you plan on keeping the car for awhile. Just my 0.02

Duckman

12-25-2007, 06:04 PM

Am I offended? No. Your entitled to your opinion. I didnt need Peddars to tell me what was wrong with my car. Its no secret that the factory radius rod bushing are junk. I went to align the car and I discovered the drivers side tie rods are shot. No offense intended, I dont need a Peddars dealer to tell me what is wrong with my car. Any comptetant mechanic can work on the GTO...its not rocket science. My tires wear flat and even...35K out of the BFGs and 30K out of the G3D3s. Could you find something wrong on my car? Sure...you will tell me my cradles need be aligned. Im sure my flux capacitor is bad to. Your in the business to sell parts and service. So am I to a lesser extent. I could sell this guy stock height springs too. But I would rather sell him the springs when he is sure he needs them. A car under warranty should be fixed by GM first. I guess if your TV crapped out under warranty you wouldnt get warrantied first...you would pay someone to fix....or just throw it out and buy new one.

Rob@WretchedMS

12-25-2007, 06:12 PM

ok, how would you suggest he fix his camber issue in the rear?

replacing it with OE springs (on the 5% chance the dealer agrees) will just but off replacing them with something better in the future. The stock springs are just not reliable enough and will fail again.

This isn't me trying to sell anything, (actually have said many times to NOT do a camber adjuster) This is me trying to help someone get their car to do what they want, and with the best info that I have. I've worked on a lot of GTO's and only a very few of them did not have rear springs that were sagging more than 25mm (1 inch) from where the stock ones were. Some of them were in the 35-40mm range. Even the newest GTO's I've done were sagging more than 10mm. (Brought from the dealer to me)

As for the TV, if the pain and hassle of getting it covered were to much, and I knew it was a flaw that would just happen again down the road, no, i'm upgrading to a new TV that doesn't have the same problem.

Duckman

12-25-2007, 06:52 PM

Rob@WretchedMS

12-25-2007, 07:58 PM

getting the dealer to replace them under warranty has been very uncommon, while it has happen it involved a lot of hassle on the side of the owner. Replacing them with OE in the best case will not correct the problem long term.

As for the alignment machine, while a little variation can happen it's not very common to have enough to make a difference.

My First GTO

12-25-2007, 08:08 PM

I never said the car didnt need springs. Trying to determine what actually wrong with the car without seeing it is always a guess. Can you honestly say that you have NEVER gotten two different alignment numbers from two diffrent machines or for that matter the same machine? The gentlmen has a warranty that he paid for, not using it defeats the purpose for the purchase of the warranty in the first place. If the gentleman want to upgrade his suspension thats one thing, repairing whats wrong is another thing all together.

With over 20 years of Dealership work under my belt, WE All can see that He won't have any LUCK, warranty or not at the dealership, So that said What Can WE do for him To help him out is first and formost Maybe the dealership will pay for the Labor and he can Have a aftermarket set of springs or Bushings installed That May work or have a third party fix the car....As far as Mr duckman WE know that Your Not a Fan of PEDDERS and Thats OK But Don't let us Not help someone that's needs some help with What YOU think. We ALL can help him with what WE KNOW....frank

I Got1

12-26-2007, 08:35 AM

WOW ... I really appreciate all of your informed opinions relating to MY problem cuz when I approach the Dealer I will now have more informed knowledge of just what's up with my/our cars. And relating to my extended warranty, one of the reasons that I paid the BIG BUCKS for it in the first place was due to the lack of an established track record relating to the ongoing performance of the new AUS GTO's!

what do you all think about this approach ... why don't I make an appointment for an alignment at the Dealer and find out what they find out and then see what their recommendation is for fixing the "problem"?

Hopefully G.M., Pontiac and the Dealer will step up to the plate under my extended warranty to FIX WHAT IS BROKEN!!!

what a bunch of crap ... how dare they infer that we the new GTO family has to accept a less than acceptable product? did they tell any of us that we'd have to replace tires at this rate when we originally bought these cars?

so ... with all this said ... should I go into the Dealership with "guns blazing" based upon the objective verifiable evidence that I already have to this point OR should I set up another appointment for an alignment with them and then just play dumb and find out what they find out?

You all are just GREAT and once again ... I really appreciate your input!!!

THANKS!

With over 20 years of Dealership work under my belt, WE All can see that He won't have any LUCK, warranty or not at the dealership, So that said What Can WE do for him To help him out is first and formost Maybe the dealership will pay for the Labor and he can Have a aftermarket set of springs or Bushings installed That May work or have a third party fix the car....As far as Mr duckman WE know that Your Not a Fan of PEDDERS and Thats OK But Don't let us Not help someone that's needs some help with What YOU think. We ALL can help him with what WE KNOW....frank

I Got1

12-26-2007, 09:01 AM

Well, the balls gonna be in their court because I've got an appointment for 9 a.m. tomorrow at the Dealer for a four wheel alignment ... so ... my "hope" is that I'm working with a reputable Dealer and one that will stand behind the Extended Warranty that THEY sold me in the first place cuz if they cannot get it aligned per spec (which per NTB is impossible!), then by definition, something must be broken, right and if something is broken then that's what I bought the extended Warranty to cover, right?

my only concern is that they try to blame in on one of the uncovered parts, like the struts ("shock absorbers") ...

My First GTO

12-26-2007, 10:16 AM

I Got1

12-27-2007, 04:14 PM

Thanks to my Dealer's knowledge of the facts pertaining to GTOs and in this case wheel alignments (Sorry NTB ... rear camber adjustment settings do actually exist!), in addition to their recently installed 4 wheel alignment equipment, my right rear out of camber problem has been fixed ... in addition to the previously unannounced out of spec Toe settings that NTB was nice enough to leave me with on each of my front wheels ... all for the additional cost of only a $99.95 wheel alignment performed by my Dealer!

and regardless of what Mr. Turkeyhawk's opinion is regarding extended warranties, the Dealer also performed an overall general inspection on my suspension parts while performing the alignment to ensure that if any repairs were indeed required, that they would be performed TODAY! and guess what ... all's good for now!!

In closing out the year on this problem ... thanks one last time to all for their input and ... HAPPY NEW YEAR!

and oh yeah, my dealer located in St. Louis MO is ...

McMahon Pontiac - GMC
3295 S. Kingshighway
St Louis, MO 63139

I will agree with Turkeyhawk that expecting the dealer to replace all of that under warranty is never going to happen. However he paid for warranty. The only thing this car may need is a $100 alignment by someone with a clue to fix his tire wear and camber problem.

Duckman

12-27-2007, 05:42 PM

Thanks to my Dealer's knowledge of the facts pertaining to GTOs and in this case wheel alignments (Sorry NTB ... rear camber adjustment settings do actually exist!), in addition to their recently installed 4 wheel alignment equipment, my right rear out of camber problem has been fixed ... in addition to the previously unannounced out of spec Toe settings that NTB was nice enough to leave me with on each of my front wheels ... all for the additional cost of only a $99.95 wheel alignment performed by my Dealer!

and regardless of what Mr. Turkeyhawk's opinion is regarding extended warranties, the Dealer also performed an overall general inspection on my suspension parts while performing the alignment to ensure that if any repairs were indeed required, that they would be performed TODAY! and guess what ... all's good for now!!

In closing out the year on this problem ... thanks one last time to all for their input and ... HAPPY NEW YEAR!

and oh yeah, my dealer located in St. Louis MO is ...

McMahon Pontiac - GMC
3295 S. Kingshighway
St Louis, MO 63139

That great...Im glad your car is fixed. Did they give you a print out of the befores and afters? If you have them...I would love to see them...

Rob@WretchedMS

12-27-2007, 06:03 PM

Agreed, I'd like to see a print out also.

Rob@WretchedMS

12-27-2007, 07:58 PM

What were the before and after readings on the rear toe and camber

if the rear toe was out of spec take the print out back to where the first alignment was done and get your money back.

I Got1

12-28-2007, 02:39 PM

Per Pontiac ...

1. Right Rear Camber ... Specified Range is -1.7 -0.4 ... before and after Pontiac dealer alignment, the Right Rear Camber is -1.6 ... even though the tire store had originally reported it as not adjustable and at - 1 7/8 or -1.875.
2. Right Rear Toe ... Specified Range is 0.03 0.37 ... before Pontiac dealer alignment, the Right Rear Toe was 0.22 and after is 0.23.

Additionally ... the following alignment settings were off even though the tire store had just performed the alignment supposedly bringing each of them into spec', i.e. ...

1) Right Front Toe ... Pontiac's Specified Range is 0.00 0.17 ... before Pontiac alignment, the Right Front Toe was 0.20 and after is now within range at 0.10.
2) Left Front Toe ... Pontiac's Specified Range is 0.00 0.17 ... before Pontiac alignment, the Left Front Toe was -0.02 and after is now within range at 0.11.
3) Left Rear Camber ... Pontiac's Specified Range is -1.7 -0.4 ... before Pontiac alignment, the Left Rear Camber was at the outside limit of this range at -1.7, it is now set in unison with the Right Rear Camber at -1.6.

What were the before and after readings on the rear toe and camber

if the rear toe was out of spec take the print out back to where the first alignment was done and get your money back.

Rob@WretchedMS

12-28-2007, 03:36 PM

left rear toe?

Front
Camber L=? R=?
Toe L=.10 R=.11

Rear
Camber L=-1.7 R=-1.6
Toe L=? R=+.23

Please fill in the missing parts please,

The change is very minimal from what i can see, and being so negative, the fix is to replace the springs.

I Got1

12-29-2007, 10:54 AM

Rob@WretchedMS

12-29-2007, 11:23 AM

before i reply,

Auto or Manual

what is s/b

your left rear toe is +.09 and your right rear is +.23?

I Got1

12-29-2007, 12:00 PM

Rob,
see my reply inserted below ...

before i reply,

Auto or Manual ... MANUAL

what is s/b ... Should Be

your left rear toe is +.09 and your right rear is +.23? ... CORRECT

Rob@WretchedMS

12-29-2007, 12:40 PM

Rob,

First off ... note my changes below ... and then to "fill in the blanks" per Pontiac spec's and my dealer's alignment ...

Left Rear Toe ... Range = 0.03 0.37 ... Before 0.09 ...After 0.09

Left Front Camber ... Range = -0.7 0.3 ... Before -0.5 ...After -0.5
Right Front Camber ... Range = -0.7 0.3 ... Before -0.6 ...After -0.6

and Rob, you suggest replacing the springs ... WHY would this be ?

I mean if the alignment is within GM specifications ... what do you mean by ... "so negative" ... and then what is wrong with the OE springs?

Maybe you can educate me but from a layman like I am ... if it ain't broke why fix it? and if it's indeed "broken" then why is it still within GM spec's? I mean will I continue burning up tires even though the Dealer's shop said that I wouldn't?

So please ... "Larn me" ...

Rob,
see my reply inserted below ...

ok, your rear toe is not adjusted properly.

while it is in 'spec' it's not what I'd consider close enough to consider it good.

The toe should be even on both sides, the more of a difference there is then the more the thrust angle is off.

As far as the rear camber, your at the limits of the rear camber, at rest with no load on the engine, is not a good thing.

When you accelerate, your camber will go more negative, and lean in on the top. This will increase your inner tire wear on the rear tires. The camber on my car is about -1.0 and i have stiffer springs so it doesn't squat anywhere near as much as with stock springs.

Just to give you an idea of what the 'tolerance' is. GM has a spec on how much a lower ball joint on a Blazer can be. I believe it's nearly 1/4". This is the spec they use to say a ball joint is not bad until it's more than 1/4" of play. Anyone that knows anything knows doing an alignment with ball joints that have 1/4" of play is useless, but GM says it's ok.

Your equivalent is your camber is at the tolerance due to the springs. With out replacing the springs it's not going to get better and you will still continue to wear your inner edges out.

I Got1

12-29-2007, 04:38 PM

Rob,
As mentioned, I appreciate your input but I'm thinking that after considering my general driving style that the most recent alignment settings might just "fit" me for the following reasons ...

While I've never taken my GTO to the track, I am an ex-sportscar enthusiast who is assertive off the line at stoplights while also enjoying an aggressive driving style on winding back roads ... all driving done within legally specified limits and regulations ... OF COURSE! :cool:

So in order to support this "style", I want to hook up more of a performance alignment setup ... i.e. one that maximizes tire performance while also pushing the "limits" by maxing out negative camber, positive caster and toe settings all within Pontiac's generally accepted "specified range" ...

And while I might be setting myself up for an "I told you so" down the road, I'm going to just stay with what I've got for now ... cuz by doing so, I will ...
1) save on the cost to buy new springs and get them installed.
2) avoid the cost of yet another alignment. ... which after two already done recently is really starting to add up!

ok, your rear toe is not adjusted properly.

while it is in 'spec' it's not what I'd consider close enough to consider it good.

The toe should be even on both sides, the more of a difference there is then the more the thrust angle is off.

As far as the rear camber, your at the limits of the rear camber, at rest with no load on the engine, is not a good thing.

When you accelerate, your camber will go more negative, and lean in on the top. This will increase your inner tire wear on the rear tires. The camber on my car is about -1.0 and i have stiffer springs so it doesn't squat anywhere near as much as with stock springs.

Just to give you an idea of what the 'tolerance' is. GM has a spec on how much a lower ball joint on a Blazer can be. I believe it's nearly 1/4". This is the spec they use to say a ball joint is not bad until it's more than 1/4" of play. Anyone that knows anything knows doing an alignment with ball joints that have 1/4" of play is useless, but GM says it's ok.

Your equivalent is your camber is at the tolerance due to the springs. With out replacing the springs it's not going to get better and you will still continue to wear your inner edges out.

Rob@WretchedMS

12-29-2007, 04:58 PM

Running 1.0 degrees of camber in the rear on my car and i pulled .96 G's

Good luck to you, if you need anything in the future let us know.

Rob

(what costs more, tires or springs)

1969 SS

12-29-2007, 10:19 PM

And while I might be setting myself up for an "I told you so" down the road, I'm going to just stay with what I've got for now ... cuz by doing so, I will ...
1) save on the cost to buy new springs and get them installed.
2) avoid the cost of yet another alignment. ... which after two already done recently is really starting to add up!

just a thought from 10 feet away, but don't places around you offer a lifetime, or even just maybe a 5 year alignment for a few extra bucks? might be worth it for you

LRAR05GTO

12-29-2007, 11:04 PM

I don't understand this thread. If I read this right, the OP stated there was a problem with excessive tire wear, 2 alignments later with minimal (if any) changes and now he is happy?

A -1.7 rear camber will eat your rear tires regardless of if it is in spec. On my 05 GTO with the 17" wheels, the insides of my rear tires wore very fast with a -1.1 negative camber compared to my front tires with -0.7 camber. I never rotated my tires.

To further demonstrate our rear springs suck, I replaced the rear springs on my 06 with Pedders 1/2" drop springs at 2500 miles and the rear right height remained the same (go figure). I can also say there is a lot less squat in the back under acceleration.

You need to replace your rear springs. Replacing them with Pedders would cost you less than $200. Heck, you just paid the dealer $100 to print out a piece of paper for you. You might as well spend money on something that will fix your problem. You will get your money back with longer tire life (tires for our cars are not cheap).

Edit: Just for my understanding, can the OP state what was done to "address" the excessive tire wear. I might have missed something.

Edit2: I saw the OP was worried about the cost of installing the rear springs. They are very easy to replace yourself and with simple tools can be done in about 15 minutes.

I Got1

12-30-2007, 01:03 PM

If you read my first thread on this subject you'll find that the tire dealer were the guys that couldn't fix things in the first place ... i.e. while they could sell me tires they could not perform a decent alignment ... so, given my recent history, who would you take your GTO to?

The Pontiac/GMC dealer where I originally bought my car gets my vote! :cool::cool:

just a thought from 10 feet away, but don't places around you offer a lifetime, or even just maybe a 5 year alignment for a few extra bucks? might be worth it for you

Rob@WretchedMS

12-30-2007, 01:14 PM

but your rear toe/thrust angle is still out, and your camber is maxed

I Got1

12-30-2007, 02:36 PM

Rob@WretchedMS

12-30-2007, 02:43 PM

If my rear coil springs are indeed "shot", then why didn't the tire dealer try selling me on those replacements in addition to the tires?

on a more inquisitive note ... what is everybody else out there with '05 GTO's, manual shifts and 17" wheels running in the way of Toe, Camber and Thrust Angle settings on their last alignment? and are they working, i.e. do you have OE or after market parts?

They just don't know enough about them, nor a supplier for the springs, and they are a tire dealer, why would they want to.

Thrust Angle should be as close to 0 as you can get it.

Anything more than +-.05 is to much, .0 is optimal.

You asked for help,

I offered help, and have answered repeatedly the same info.

Others have backed up what i've said, i'm not sure what more i can say.

To fix your tire wear issues your rear springs will need to be replaced, period.

Still Wrenchin'

12-30-2007, 03:23 PM

Instead of trying to defend what you were told by the tire dealer OR the Pontiac Dealership- follow the directions given earlier and go measure the ride height YOURSELF, ask Rob or Frank to give you(if they haven't already) the proper ride height and you will SEE FOR YOURSELF that your rear springs are sagging and need to be replaced. It is common knowledge by almost all on this board that the sagging springs are partly caused by the long boat-ride from Australia and partly by the lack of tight enough quality control from GM on their tolerances for differences in spring height. Please just go out and measure them and report back here and if we are all wrong I will apoligize for every body. Not trying to be an ass, just trying to help you based on my own experience on spring heights with other GM vehicles.

I Got1

12-30-2007, 04:45 PM

Per Pedders spec's already given to me by Rob, the measurements are supposed to be taken with only 1/4 tank of gas and while I haven't gotten down to that point yet I took some preliminary measurements, i.e. when I measured them last week with a full tank of gas both rear sides measured at about 575 mm's and the fronts were about 592 mm's ... and per my measurements just minutes ago, with a little less that 2/3 tank, the rear measurements were up to almost 585 mm's and the fronts remained at about the same height + or - 1 or 2 mm's.

so ... what can we infer by these intermediary measurements?

and while I do appreciate Rob's and your "Still Wrenchin" :cool: help, I also recall back the mid '80's when I had to replace all of the shocks and springs all the way around on my Buick Regal ... so does GM strike me once again? OR can I get lucky and with a 1/4 tank of gas the height measurements on the rear increase to about where they should be?

And lastly, if the springs are bad, they are a part covered under my Extended Warranty so what are my chances of making that happen?

Instead of trying to defend what you were told by the tire dealer OR the Pontiac Dealership- follow the directions given earlier and go measure the ride height YOURSELF, ask Rob or Frank to give you(if they haven't already) the proper ride height and you will SEE FOR YOURSELF that your rear springs are sagging and need to be replaced. It is common knowledge by almost all on this board that the sagging springs are partly caused by the long boat-ride from Australia and partly by the lack of tight enough quality control from GM on their tolerances for differences in spring height. Please just go out and measure them and report back here and if we are all wrong I will apoligize for every body. Not trying to be an ass, just trying to help you based on my own experience on spring heights with other GM vehicles.

Still Wrenchin'

12-30-2007, 05:39 PM

Let me approach it from my angle. I too was having lots of rear tire wear problems. Tire dealer kept saying it was an alignment issue(actually it is-no rear camber adjustment),but alignment shop kept telling me alignment was within spec. I finally found this forum and started seeing lots of other folks complaining about tire wear. I finally gave up on warranty(they insisted it was within spec so no repairs) and started measuring my ride heights. I was already familiar with IRS as I own a 1980 corvette and this was always an issue that had to be watched(we always adjusted the rear cambers on the vette to compensate for tire wear). Any way to cut to the chase the end result was I just cussed to myself about any warranty, bit the bullit and changed the springs as well as assorted bushings and struts/shocks.At the rate I was replacing tires it was time to try something different.Have yet to notice any significant tire wear several thousand miles after the spring replacement.