Gun Owners: Be scared

[machinistone]

The government has gone too far, this sets a very scary precedent. I have checked several other sources, and the facts of the case are the same. The ATF withheld evidence and lied to the court to get a conviction.

Drill instructor convicted after rifle jams
Guardsman guilty of illegally transferring 'machine gun' after firearm malfunctions

Posted: January 13, 2008
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com

A drill instructor in the National Guard has been convicted in a Wisconsin federal court of illegally transferring a machine gun after a rifle he loaned to a student malfunctioned, setting off three shots before jamming.

The verdict of guilty on one count in the case against David Olofson was confirmed yesterday by the clerk's office in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin.

That means now that anyone whose weapon malfunctions is subject to charges of having or handling a banned gun, according to an expert witness who reports that the particular problem is a well-known malfunction and was even the subject of a recall from the manufacturer.

"If your semiautomatic rifle breaks or malfunctions you are now subject to prosecution. That is now a sad FACT. I guess we know now what Sen. Kennedy meant when he said he looked forward to working with [Acting Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Director] Mike Sullivan on Gun control issues, after his committee approved him for full Senate vote," Len Savage, a weaponry expert who runs Historic Arms LLC, said in a blog.

"To those in the sporting culture who have derided 'black guns' and so-called 'assault weapons'; Your double barreled shotgun is now next up to be seized and you could possibly be prosecuted if the ATF can get it to 'fire more than once,'" he wrote in a blog run by Red's Trading Post.


Red Trading Post manager Ryan Horsley

"Hey, but don't worry," Savage said. "The people testing it have no procedures in writing and the testing will be in secret. Also if you know of information that proves YOUR innocence, maybe the ATF won't claim that it's tax information at your trial and prevent YOUR judge from viewing it."

He told an interview with Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership that Olofson had been instructing a man in the use of guns, and the student asked to borrow a rifle for some shooting practice.

"Mr. Olofson was nice enough to accommodate him," Savage said. So the student, Robert Kiernicki, went to a range and fired about 120 rounds. "He went to put in another magazine and the rifle shot three times, then jammed," Savage said.

A couple of police officers who also were at the ranged immediately approached him and started asking questions about the "automatic" fire, and he told them it was a borrowed weapon.

"Mr. Olofson, being a responsible person, went down to the police station and said, 'I'm in the National Guard. I know what a machine gun looks like. That's not it,'" Savage said.

But instead of having the issues resolve, Savage said, it got worse.

He reported that because of the malfunction, the rifle was seized and sent to the Firearm Technology Branch, the testing arm of the federal agency.

"The examined and test fired the rifle; then declared it to be 'just a rifle,'" Savage said. "You would think it would all be resolved at this point, this was merely the beginning."

He said the Special Agent in Charge, Jody Keeku, asked for a re-test and specified that the tests use "soft primered commercial ammunition."

"FTB has no standardized testing procedures, in fact it has no written procedures at all for testing firearms," Savage said. "They had no standard to stick to, and gleefully tried again. The results this time...'a machinegun.' ATF with a self-admitted 50 percent error rate pursued an indictment and Mr. Olofson was charged with 'Unlawful transfer of a machinegun.'. Not possession, not even Robert Kiernicki was charged with possession (who actually possessed the rifle), though the ATF paid Mr. Kiernicki 'an undisclosed amount of money' to testify against Mr. Olofson at trial," Savage said.

And then during the trial, the prosecution told the judge it would not provide some information defense lawyers felt would clear their client, Savage continued. That included the fact that the rifle's manufacturer, Olympic Arms, had been issued a recall notice for that very model in 1986 over an issue of guns inadvertently slipping into full automatic mode, if certain parts were worn or if certain ammunition was used.

Ryan Horsley, who posts the Red's Trading Post blog, said the results were "very concerning."

"Basically if your Ruger 10/22, Browning Citori Over and Under or Remington 11-87 malfunction and fire more than one round at a time; the ATF will now consider it a machine gun," he wrote.

He told WND he's had personal experience with guns that malfunction and fire more than one bullet. Even double-barreled shotguns, if both shells would be released at once, now could be considered machine guns and illegal, he said.

"This precedent is very dangerous," he said.

Defense attorneys in the Olofson case couldn't be reached immediately to determine whether an appeal would be pursued, but Savage noted the arguments by assistant U.S. Attorney Greg Hannstad, who handled the prosecution.

"Haanstad claimed the law does not exempt a malfunction. He claims that it states 'any weapon that shoots more than once without manual reloading, per function of the trigger is a machinegun.' To clarify when I was on the stand, I asked him, 'Are you saying if I take my Great Granddaddy's double barrel out and I pull one trigger and both barrels go off, it's a machinegun?' He went back to … 'any weapon that shoots…'" Savage said.

On the Red's blog, commenters were incensed.

"'Innocent until proven guilty' has been transformed by the ATF into 'guilty until framed,' said LibertyPlease.

Horsley also told WND the 2008 edition of Firearms Law Deskbook quotes from a 1999 case in which the court concluded the law on automatic weapons "is not intended to trap the unwary innocent, and well intentioned citizen who possess an otherwise semi-automatic weapon that, by repeated use of the weapon, by the inevitable wear and tear of sporting activities, or by means of mere inattention, happenstance, or illfortune, fires more than semi-automatically."

[Never2mucHP]

What a stupid situation. How is what the ATF did NOT illeagal?

[WhiteyBear]

machine guns aren't illegal

not having the paperwork for it is

this is not that big a deal

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

machine guns aren't illegal

not having the paperwork for it is

this is not that big a deal

did you even read the article? the rifle in question was NOT a machine gun. It was a regular rifle that was malfunctioning. The ATF was unable to replicate the malfunction until they rigged the test up, and finally got the results they had already concluded. This is not the first time the ATF has pulled a stunt like this either. If I was this guy I'd get the NRA and my congresscritter involved ASAP. This is blatant abuse by a gov't agency with a LONG history of abuse of power.

[MrYenko]

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Alchohol Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.

[DABLACK1]

it was a semi auto that jammed and shot a 3 round burst

why are they judging on how the gun fires and not on the internals you can tell the differance between a auto and a semi auto sear

[speeddemon]

makes my hate of the ATF only grow stronger and stronger......

[speeddemon]

it was a semi auto that jammed and shot a 3 round burst

why are they judging on how the gun fires and not on the internals you can tell the differance between a auto and a semi auto sear
I had a Luger P08 fire a 3 round burst at the range...sear stuck open...I guess I had a full automatic terrorist weapon huh?

[MrYenko]

I had a Luger P08 fire a 3 round burst at the range...sear stuck open...I guess I had a full automatic terrorist weapon huh?

According to the ATF, yes. You are in violation of federal firearms legislation, and guilty of a felony.

Black-suited jackboot wearing loonies, the lot of em.

[nesikachad]

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Alchohol Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.


Ya' know, I, and many before and after me, took an oath to defend this country against all enemies, both foreign and domestic when enlisting into the military. The oath is the same regardless of branch of service. You swear to defend the Constitution.

So, I ask where is this imaginary line in the sand that differentiates between the angry nut who's waiting for Canada to invade and the ordinary guy who's just had enough with his rights (not privileges, RIGHTS) being systematically stripped away little by little.

Might I add for emphasis that this is the 2nd Amendment we are talking about. It's superseded only by the right to have free speech. It's not the 10th or 99th or 1 billionth amendment. It's the SECOND ONE.

That says that the old timers found it pretty important in my book.

The BATF is supposed to be a tax collection agency. HTF did it become part of the justice department?

Since when does the IRS have its own SWAT and QRF force?
This is bullshit and you bet your ass that now this has a precedent in a courtroom, it won't end here.

READ THIS BOOK: Unintended Consequences by John Ross

[nesikachad]

I had a Luger P08 fire a 3 round burst at the range...sear stuck open...I guess I had a full automatic terrorist weapon huh?


You'd be smart to delete that admission.

[MrYenko]

READ THIS BOOK: Unintended Consequences by John Ross

Agreed. If that book doesnt piss you off, you need to have your head examined.

[speeddemon]

You'd be smart to delete that admission.its ok,they already took my dads Zastava M76 because it will fire full auto for 2 rounds and jam if the selector is set between fire and safe.....like an 8mm rifle on full auto would cause massive damage...god that thing was beautiful....and the ATF melted them all down

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/M-76-sniper.jpg
http://www.snipercountry.com/graphics/Yugo_M76_1.j pg

[nesikachad]

Minute of bilboard /\

[It Burns When I Pee]

First off, a distinct lack of relevant dates sets off alarm bells.

Then there's the part where the National Guard calls it's guys Drill Sergeants, the Marine Corps calls their's Drill Instructors. Minor detail? Not to people that earned that smokey hat it's not. That's not an error anybody that knows jack diddly sh*t about the military makes.

Google the person they call "US District Attorney" and the only results that come back are links to this article. There's no "Greg Hannstad" listed on Wikipedia as being one. This pretty much rings true for just about every individual named in this article. No mention anywhere online about them, save for links to this tripe.

Firearm Technology Branch? Uh...No such beast.

There's more holes in this story than I can begin to count. It just makes no sense, and it reads like a 14 year old Bircher wrote it after spending two weeks in tinfoil hat camp.

I say it's bunk.

[nesikachad]

Well if you are in deed right (and I hope you are) then I feel rather foolish.

Dern it.

[Crikey]

Subject: Fw: A Little gun history

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

I Thought you might appreciate this . .


In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953,
about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5
million Armenians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total
of 13 mill ion Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves
were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

China established gun control in 1935. >From 1948 to 1952,
20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981,
100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were
rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979,
300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------
< BR>Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977,
one million educated' people, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated
-----------------------------
Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century
because of gun control: 56 million

------------------------------

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by
new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by
their own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than
$500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

List of 7 items:
Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent
Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent< BR>Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!
In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300
percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the
criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in
armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in
the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is
unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of
the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how
public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense
was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The

Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians
disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes,
gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind
them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'.
Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they
knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, Please spread this anti-gun control message
to all of your friends.


People ask me why I carry a 45 cal. My answer
"Because they don't make a 46 cal."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i’m Initiative now. Join in!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTICE - CONFIDENTIAL AND PRIVILEGED - This e-mail may contain privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the addressee named above. If you received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail and delete the original message; any distribution, copying or use of this e-mail by you is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.



Braswell Deen

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail!

[greg'sgoat]

First off, a distinct lack of relavent dates sets off alarm bells.

Then there's the part where the National Guard calls it's guys Drill Sergeants, the Marine Corps calls their's Drill Instructors. Minor detail? Not to people that earned that smokey hat it's not. That's not an error anybody that knows jack diddly sh*t about the military makes.

Google the person they call "US District Attorney" and the only results that come back are links to this article. There's no "Greg Hannstad" listed on Wikipedia as being one. This pretty much rings true for just about every individual named in this article. No mention anywhere online about them, save for links to this tripe.

Firearm Technology Branch? Uh...No such beast.

There's more holes in this story than I can begin to count. It just makes no sense, and it reads like a 14 year old Bircher wrote it after spending two weeks in tinfoil hat camp.

I say it's bunk.

When I read that news article I thought the same thing, but I also know the source of that article doesn't think the highest of "facts". However, the story is true.

Here is a 33 page thread created by and update through-out the 2 years this ordeal took to where it is now. It details his court hearings, the with holding of evidence by the ATF (with law text cited where that was illigeal in the ATF's quoting of a tax code). It also somewhat describes his appeals perperations.

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=507483

[Steel Chicken]

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they
knew most Americans were ARMED!

This statement is stupid and shows a glaring lack of understanding of WWII history.

[It Burns When I Pee]

When I read that news article I thought the same thing, but I also know the source of that article doesn't think the highest of "facts". However, the story is true.

Here is a 33 page thread created by and update through-out the 2 years this ordeal took to where it is now. It details his court hearings, the with holding of evidence by the ATF (with law text cited where that was illigeal in the ATF's quoting of a tax code). It also somewhat describes his appeals perperations.

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=507483

Well color me shocked. Maybe if people actually checked what they post more often instead of copying and pasting from an email or some retard's blog then I wouldn't be such a skeptic. The post immediately above yours is a good example. People get something in an email, they agree with the gist of it, so they spam it out without ever checking to see if it's real.

And considering the part where the ONLY places online I can see this particular article/story are all gun-nut and/or conspiracy-type sites...Well...You can see where my doubts come from :D

[greg'sgoat]

Well color me shocked. Maybe if people actually checked what they post more often instead of copying and pasting from an email or some retard's blog then I wouldn't be such a skeptic. The post immediately above yours is a good example. People get something in an email, they agree with the gist of it, so they spam it out without ever checking to see if it's real.

And considering the part where the ONLY places online I can see this particular article/story are all gun-nut and/or conspiracy-type sites...Well...You can see where my doubts come from :D

I was jumping on you. I agree with you (I get those same emails from co-workers and I'm sick of them...maybe I'd have better luck if I forwarded them to 10 friends). I was just trying to back up that this one time it was true. The source of that article doesn't believe in fact check, I understand your skeptisism.

[wolfdogs]

if your a gun owner..the real threat is Hillary right now.... take that to the bank.

[72/04 GTO]

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun"

-The Dali Lama

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."

-Thomas Jefferson

"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

-Mohandas Gandhi

"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power.

Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world...

The first step in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to to be fit for war if it should come is to teach men to shoot!"

-Theodore Roosevelt

[WhiteyBear]

if your a gun owner..the real threat is Hillary right now.... take that to the bank.

Thank you good sir

Like I stated above, automatic weapons are not against the law, if you have papers for them. I weapon that can convienantly "jam" and you know it full well, well then yeah, that's at your exspense.

Trust me, if the NRA didn't publically pick up this case, this didn't happen. I live about 20 miles from their headquarters.

[shrike]

yawn.........

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

This statement is stupid and shows a glaring lack of understanding of WWII history. thank you for putting a disclaimer on your own post.

"You cannot invade the mainland United States.
There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
(Japanese Navy)

[machinistone]

I have been hoping that someone would find a reliable source stating that this story is false, as it seems hard to believe....but I can't really say that I am surprised with the progression of the assault on the constitution by the government - republicans and democrats alike.

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

oh but it's for YOUR protection... and the children, don't forget THE CHILDREN!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

[Scurvy]

Thank you good sir

Like I stated above, automatic weapons are not against the law, if you have papers for them. I weapon that can convienantly "jam" and you know it full well, well then yeah, that's at your exspense.

Trust me, if the NRA didn't publically pick up this case, this didn't happen. I live about 20 miles from their headquarters.

So does wolfdogs....

I live 8 miles away

[Scurvy]

thank you for putting a disclaimer on your own post.

"You cannot invade the mainland United States.
There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
(Japanese Navy)

Also the reason why no one will invade the Swiss.


There is a story, possibly apocryphal but awesome nonetheless, that a ranking German (possibly the Kaiser) was visiting and watching the Swiss military on their summer maneuvers. He asked the Swiss commander, "How big a force do you command?"

The Swiss general confidently replied, "I can mobilize one million men in twenty-four hours."

The German asked, "What would happen if I marched five million men in here tomorrow?"

The Swiss replied, "Each of my men will fire five shots and go home."

[st8gunner]

Oh god, I wish people would stop posting that australia gun control story. It's BS. Check snopes.com.

[Bumpin' Yota]

Oh god, I wish people would stop posting that australia gun control story. It's BS. Check snopes.com.

Snopes is just as bad as most news programs with their liberal spin! LMAO! I love how they like to not mention that the homicide RATE had been falling for years and years. And the NFA had NO effect on that. But by reading snopes you'd think the NFA helped when in fact it did not. Secondarily they do not cite their sources when they make ludicris statements like, "most of austrailians never owned firearms in the first place" Sorry but until I see an official census that states the such I am calling total BS.

The gun control laws (NFA) had NO EFFECT at all! (Other than attempting to make honest citizens into criminals....)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buyback-has-no-effect-on-murder-rate/2006/10/23/1161455665717.html

Here's some proof to back that:
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi153.html

And here's more:
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi2/tandi269 t.html

Just another attempt at government attaining more power over the people....

Though not pres of the NRA anylonger, Charlton Heston is my president!
"From my cold dead hands"

[2K6 GTO]

Also the reason why no one will invade the Swiss.


There is a story, possibly apocryphal but awesome nonetheless, that a ranking German (possibly the Kaiser) was visiting and watching the Swiss military on their summer maneuvers. He asked the Swiss commander, "How big a force do you command?"

The Swiss general confidently replied, "I can mobilize one million men in twenty-four hours."

The German asked, "What would happen if I marched five million men in here tomorrow?"

The Swiss replied, "Each of my men will fire five shots and go home."
I haven't heard that story for years... and I just posted the version I remember of it in another thread... Go figure. Great minds run in the same channel, eh?

It's true that we need to choose our battles carefully, as we may only be able to fight in one.

[YouHolden?]

That story is pretty frightening.
When I bought my AK-74 parts kit I made sure I complied with all federal firearms laws (regarding a certain % of parts needing to be American). However it wouldnt seem such a stretch to replace the trigger assembly with one without a disconnect...
Its wierd how the government pursues such avenues to criminalize honest citizens and yet leaves easy ways for dishonest citizens to acquire truly illegal firearms (ex. I could have bent my own receiver from a cutout and then it would not be registered or changing the trigger assembly, not that I would ever do such a thing).

[speeddemon]

That story is pretty frightening.
When I bought my AK-74 parts kit I made sure I complied with all federal firearms laws (regarding a certain % of parts needing to be American). However it wouldnt seem such a stretch to replace the trigger assembly with one without a disconnect...
Its wierd how the government pursues such avenues to criminalize honest citizens and yet leaves easy ways for dishonest citizens to acquire truly illegal firearms (ex. I could have bent my own receiver from a cutout and then it would not be registered or changing the trigger assembly, not that I would ever do such a thing).
I saw that,you could easily build it as it was from military service right? I want to build one but of course a legal semi auto,makes me laugh when you can buy parts kits and receivers like that:nonono:

[YouHolden?]

I saw that,you could easily build it as it was from military service right? I want to build one but of course a legal semi auto,makes me laugh when you can buy parts kits and receivers like that:nonono:

Well there are websites where you can buy just a flat peice of metal with the holes and edges cut and bend your own receiver. The receiver is considered the actual "gun" so when I bought mine from my local gun shop I had to register it like a rifle. That and it would really not be difficult even to alter a trigger assemly with a disconnect to fire fully auto..
It was a lot of fun to build my own rifle, I used screws rather than rivets because it is easier to put together and dissamble. If you are considering doing it make sure you have a little money to invest in tools. You need a drill press and a a decent tap and die set.
If you get an AK beware of the trunion blocks. If you are using the originals you need a special set of taps that have no taper- more of a task for your experienced gunsmith.