TSB for Clutch Issue

[pontiac04GTO]

I know this has prolly been discussed before, but i dont feel like scrolling through all the many many entries in the few threads. I remember reading that GM IS aware of the clutch issue. Is there a TSB out? I meet with the Rep on the 14th and i need to have some ammo. The dealer has failed to make my problems happen when they drive it. 3 times in the last day it has grinded while i was shifting into reverse at a complete stand still and the clutch was completely floored. Needless to say i have started a "problem log". Any input on the TSB or other documents stating GM is aware of the problem would be of much help. THANKS.

[derf]

My dealer looked it up on his computer but I don't know the number. Ask them to look on the computer for the GTO clutch. Something should come up.

[CMNTMXR57]

I believe it has to do with bolts not being torqued properly on the flywheel and then the pressure plate to flywheel.

[Stormin'Norman]

Here is the TSB, et. al. Hope this helps.

Manual Transmission with (Hard to Select Gears) - kw bolt clutch crank grind inoperative noise operation pedal power pressure release return shift start torque #PI01810 - (03/01/2004)
Manual Transmission with (Hard to Select Gears)
.

When servicing the vehicle with the VIN you entered, the following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the described symptoms.

Condition/Concern:
If a customer complaint on a manual transmission GTO with "hard to select gears" is received, please follow the process listed below to diagnose and correct: The GTO pressure plate bolt torque has been revised from 50 +/- 10 NM to 70 +/- 7 NM. Break Point of revised torque specification was introduced on line Wednesday 2/11/2004. The last eight of the GTO VIN was L234149. Inspect the back of the left cylinder head first. If the word "OK" is stamped on the cylinder head in yellow paint the torque on the pressure plate to flywheel bolts has been certified to the updated torque spec. Approximately 150 of the first production GTOs were built with a Clutch Slave Cylinder filled with Dot 3 fluid. The new Clutch Slave Cylinder (pt # 92067460) is filled with Dot 4. Break point VIN is L181535 built after 10/8/03.

Recommendation/Instructions:
Check the disengagement and engagement point of the clutch. Pushing on the clutch pedal, the disengagement point should be located approximately 50 mm off the floor.
If disengagement is very close to the floor (UNDER 30 mm), there is the potential that the pressure plate bolts have worked loose and/or there is air in the clutch slave cylinder system. To establish whether the pressure plate bolts have worked loose, check the breakaway torque of the pressure plate to flywheel bolts (50 +/- 10 NM was the assembly torque). If less torque than this is required to loosen the bolts, torque the clutch pressure plate bolts to 70 Nm/52 lb/ft. There is a high probability that the clutch will be fully functional following a re-torque. If torque is found to be well under 50 Nm, it is suggested the clutch disc be replaced for customer satisfaction. If the clutch feels spongy, like the system may have air in it, check the part number on the slave cylinder. If the cylinder is the old part number, replace the clutch slave cylinder. When the transmission is removed, inspect to see that the latest level Clutch Slave Cylinder assembly (92067460) is installed. The part number can be found on the bleeder valve tag. The new part number is 92067460 / old 92143151. If you find the assembly is not this new part number, replace it prior to reassembly. The system must be thoroughly bled with Dot 4 hydraulic fluid after reassembly. Note: When servicing the flywheel and pressure plate you may note that they are dished. The outer surface of each makes initial contact with the clutch disc and subsequently the entire surface is engaged once the clutch pedal is fully released. This is normal for this assembly. Do not replace components for this concern. This is a torque management technique that is employed as a result of engine output potential.
Whether you replace the slave cylinder or re-torque the clutch assembly, it is important that the transmission be evaluated to confirm that no synchronizer damage has occurred as a result of the poor clutch disengagement. Replace or repair as required.
The disengagement point must be evaluated following any service performed.
.

Please follow this diagnosis process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed. If these steps do not resolve the condition, please contact GM TAC for further diagnostic assistance. This diagnostic approach was developed for the vehicle with the VIN you entered and should not be automatically be used for other vehicles with similar symptoms.

Models:
(04 Pontiac GTO)

.
Stormin'Norman,
04 PBM

[Tails]

Thanks for the heads up and welcome to the forum General Schwarzkopf.
:drink: :drink:

[MattSaint]

Great information. Apparently, mine was one of the ones that they must have been re-torqued before completing final assembly. That was great to see.

Cheers!!!


~MattS

[RedGTO]

Great information. Apparently, mine was one of the ones that they must have been re-torqued before completing final assembly. That was great to see.

Cheers!!!


~MattS

Are you going by the yellow OK? What is the best way to see it? What is your VIN number? My VIN number is in the range, but so far no problems.

[MattSaint]

Are you going by the yellow OK? What is the best way to see it? What is your VIN number? My VIN number is in the range, but so far no problems.

RedGTO,

The best way to see it is to crawl under the car on your back on the driverside with a flashlight. If you get to just behind the cat and look up towards the cylinder head you will see it. There us a white bar code sticker right near it and it helps to contrast the color. Also, I am not having issues shifting. My VIN is 188###. Hope that Helps.

~MattS

[JCMGTO]

Mine goes in Tuesday, lets see what happens.

[RedGTO]

RedGTO,

The best way to see it is to crawl under the car on your back on the driverside with a flashlight. If you get to just behind the cat and look up towards the cylinder head you will see it. There us a white bar code sticker right near it and it helps to contrast the color. Also, I am not having issues shifting. My VIN is 188###. Hope that Helps.

~MattS

I was able to see the "OK" from the top with a mirror and a flashlight. I have a yellow "OK", so in theory my clutch is OK. What I don't understand is that the "fix" was suppose to go in at VIN 234149 and 2-04 production. My car is VIN 194XXX and 11-03 production. If they knew about the problem in time to fix my car, why did they wait until 2-04 to change the line? Seems strange. Also, they say the clutch should engage 50mm off the floor, which is about what mine does. This seems very low. So far, my car seems OK, although I have to put it into 1st before reverse, and it is a little stiff until it warms up. I called the dealer and they were less than helpful. Anyone have any thoughts?

[DANSLS1]

My car is a 190xxx vin - and I haven't had any problems w/ the clutch. I'm not sure why some higher vin's have problems and lower ones don't - but I had speculated some of the ideas in other places (employee 'bob' knew that the Amurican car's get higher torque, but employee 'jim' does the job the rest of the time and didn't know, for example).
Dan

[RedGTO]

My car is a 190xxx vin - and I haven't had any problems w/ the clutch. I'm not sure why some higher vin's have problems and lower ones don't - but I had speculated some of the ideas in other places (employee 'bob' knew that the Amurican car's get higher torque, but employee 'jim' does the job the rest of the time and didn't know, for example).
Dan

Do you have a yellow "ok"? Also, I received a copy of the service manual today, spec for pressure plate is 50 nm, not 70 nm.

[DANSLS1]

Do you have a yellow "ok"?

Oops - meant to put that. Yes, I have the yellow OK, and the 4 DOT cap on the slave cylinder filler.
Dan

[nikivee]

My VIN is L201XXX. I haven't check for the OK, but I haven't as yet experienced any shifting issues.

[zog]

So far, my car seems OK, although I have to put it into 1st before reverse, and it is a little stiff until it warms up. I called the dealer and they were less than helpful. Anyone have any thoughts?

Any takers on this one? I still have to go into any gear before going to reverse, and my first shift into 2nd is usually pretty rough. Sometimes the shifts are easy right after that, and sometimes it takes about 5 minutes to smooth out. Has this ever been figured out?

[heymccall]

Check your tranny oil level and, 'cuz it's cheap, change the tranny oil if the level is good .:driving:

[FLORIT]

I took her in with two complaints: rattle when accelerating and "reverse and second hard to find." The dealer is replacing the exhaust for the rattle and agreed to drop the tranny and check the torque mentioned in the TSB. They will also inspect the clutch and stuff and fix whatever needs it.

All this with only 7000 miles left on my warranty. :)

I'm glad I decided to get it checked now instead of later.

[FLORIT]

There are two boots on the shifter: The outer leather boot and an inner "sealed" boot. My shifter had TWO "sealed" boots, one on top of the other. The mechanic took off the extra boot and the shifter feels like a different car. All positions, 1-6 and R, are much easier to find.

[GoatChs]

Just wanted to relate an experience with regard to this issue.

I'd been having trouble with what I had thought was a clutch hydraulics issue for over two months. The symptoms were that upon cold start up I would have a normal clutch engagement height and pressure for the first 2-3 actuations then it would degrade to the point that i would have to pump the clutch pedal 4-6 times to get it into gear from a stop or shift gear to gear while moving. When I first started experiencing the problem I thought that I had burned the clutch fluid, so "I" flushed & bled it at the DMS Day back in October. The problem remained the same so I took it into a clutch shop to have them flush/bleed the system, since I didn't entirely trust myself. They flushed & bled it, but it still wasn't any better. They "diagnosed" the problem was in the hydraulics...either master or slave losing pressure past a seal/piston. Figured it was time to haul it into a GM dealer for examination. Called Mike White at DMS (Dublin Pontiac) in Dublin, Ca for help. Mike ordered a new master cylinder to ensure that he had the parts if needed. In just a few hours I received a call informing that the problem has been identified and repaired...the problem was loose pressure plate bolts and is listed as a TSB.

I am still befuddled as to how loose pressure plate bolts can manifest symptoms such as I experienced...seems that a mechanical fastening such as pressure plate bolts would have the same symptom from the first to last pedal engagement?

I drove it home last night and it was just as good as the day I drove it off the lot...I need to relearn how to drive the thing without the old double clutch trick!

Anyway, I would have bet cash (and did when I spent $100 having it flush & bled at the clutch shop) that it was hydraulics.

The lesson learned is: "You can't tell a book by its cover."

[traumadog]

Interesting thread revival...

For me, the shifter still doesn't like engaging into first/reverse when cold, even after changing to RP fluids.

Then again, I've got an early-build car (VIN L178XXX) - and what's weird, I've peeked with a mirror and don't see a yellow sticker, but a handwritten "OK" on the driver's side cylinder head.

[GoatChs]

Mine is a Dec03 build (L219xxx) and seems to have enjoyed several early build issues so far. Erratic instrument cluster (#05-08-49-003), clunking rear diff (#04-03-09-003A), assy grease in clutch master cylinder/reservoir (#04-07-31-002), and now the pressure plate bolts (#04-07-31-003). Hope that wraps up the troubles...

[RAZORPAW04]

In my vin is L223 where will i find the month it was built in.
Because i have always had the hard shift into reverse the dealer said did'nt
happen for them.I change my trans fluid the forward gears shift fine
but reverse is still a pain in the butt.

[CARBUFF]

I have the HARD TO ENGAVE 1st and Reverse when its cold as well but my VIN is L311xxx.
Ive mentioned this to the dealer and he says its normal. But it happens when its COLD outside only <30 degrees F. The dealer is willing to try things but he says id probably have better luck finding things in these forums than he would in TSBs.
HELP

[gtore62]

i had 1st to reverese engagement problem, the bastards where i bought the car said they talked to the engineers and the bolts didn't need to be torqued. i had another delear retorque the clutch bolts, no slipping problem since. my reverse just went to s#it and had the fork and sync. replaced. engament after then was like it should be, no need to go to 1st anymore, shifting was smooth as silk, i drained the fluid just to see how much they put in , a mere 3.5 qts., so i serviced it with exactly 4.5 qts. guess what the shifting got stiff on all 6 and rev.,drained .5qts the shifiing improved to almost like it was when it had 3.5qt.. go figure. i think those loose clutch bolts could very well cause damage to the insides. sorry for the long story.

[TrueBlueGTO]

Mine has had the problem since about 10k miles and has gotten progressively worse and my vin is L23xxxx. Having dealer look at it AGAIN tomorrow along with my fuel line/engine cover issue, exhaust rattle, weird smell from cats after extended drives or "spirited" driving, and leaking front radius bushines, intermittent keyless entry (sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it honks the horn, sometimes it doesnt), weak fuel door release (has caused gas attendents to chip paint trying to pry it open), and extended crank start.

I like to take my cars in with several issues at one time so if they don't find it one problem the first day when they pull it in and test it, as they will have the car a day or two they're more likely to find it after it sits overnight.

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

My car has been to the dealer 3 times for clutch/shifting issues. TAC says that it now could be the synchronizers and drive it until it strands me along the road.

Time for a new dealer.

[TrueBlueGTO]

My car has been to the dealer 3 times for clutch/shifting issues. TAC says that it now could be the synchronizers and drive it until it strands me along the road.

Time for a new dealer.
That is hilarious!! :gr_jest:

I hope you gave them a piece of your mind before taking your biz elsewhere. :slap: :nuts:

Comments like that or the ubiquitous "No problem found" or my favorite "Operates as designed" would surely encourage a lesser person :angel: to intentionally grind gears by not using the clutch at all:secret:

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

I was surprised TAC said. "yeah, it'll keep getting worse."

I'm thinking "Why isn't there a new clutch assembly and transmission on a truck heading this way?"

[flybye]

sorry to bring back an old thread...but there is some very usefull info in here. im struggling with the dealership right now aswell. i have had my car in for service many times and the shifting issues are probably my main concern other than the fact my car burnt up 1qt of oil in aroun 2500miles.

anyways everytime i take the car in they say they cannot duplicate my issues. i told them about his TSB and they also said there werent any on file concerning the problems im having. i heard about the flywheel bolts from another member so i searched and found this thread. i didnt see the TSB in the sticky though. it should probably be added. hopefull i will have an update today after i take them a copy of this

[sTiNkY!]

MY car is there RIGHT NOW for this issue, and they told me it's "normal operation." I told them about the TSB, and asked them if my car had the flywheel bolts torqued, and the SA said he didn't know, and had to check. (Obviously now, I have to wait until Monday.)

Shouldn't he already know if they checked the TSBs? I'm not a technician, but I would think that would be standard operating procedure with a problem like this. But that's just me.

I'm starting not to trust this dealer. I have a father-in-law that works at a dealer out-of-town. I think I'll ask him to check in my service records if this update has been done on my car...

[jed.only]

mine got worse then would not shift with the car running. dealership replaced pressure plate/disc/flywheel.

[DevilYellow]

This TSB is oooooooooooooold. Not only that but if this didnt happen to your 2004 back years ago chances are it has nothing to do with this. It was only applicable to the very early cars and the problems showed themselves very early.

[sTiNkY!]

This TSB is oooooooooooooold. Not only that but if this didnt happen to your 2004 back years ago chances are it has nothing to do with this. It was only applicable to the very early cars and the problems showed themselves very early.

I agree that the TSB is old, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't apply.

I bought my 04 with 17K in March 07, and now it's only up to about 21K. I drive my beater during the week, and the GTO on the weekends.

Anyway, this "hard to select gears" TSB applies to my car, I'm having trouble selecting gears, and there's nothing in my car's service history to suggest this issue has been previously addressed. Moreover, I have no idea how serious the previous owner was about getting things like this taken care of - I've had this problem off and on since I bought the car.

Granted, at 21K miles if the flywheel wasn't torqued properly, one would expect serious problems by now, but that doesn't have to be the case. It also doesn't mean that this couldn't at least improve my situation (and others' situations) by having this issue addressed if it hasn't been done before.

[gtore62]

the clutch slipped after getting on it on the 3rd or 4th pull, and when shifting at high rpms, with stock everything, after the h/c, which i did at 9kmi, the problem really surfaced all the time. had the clutch pressure plate bolts retorqued [tsb] and never had a problem after that, except for the clutch hydraulics. i have 57k mi today. so far it still holding.