Class action lawsuit about tires and strut tower rubbing

[PMajon]

I'd like see what's involved organizing a class action lawsuit against GM regarding the strut tower brace wearing away the inside of the tires on our cars. The inside of my tires are completely bald and the dealership is unwilling / unable to do anything about it. I'm getting a new set of tires installed tomorrow along with an alignment. I'm going to document as much as I can about this problem.

Does anyone have any information / experiences about organizing a class action lawsuit? I was part of one a couple years ago which resulted in a successful prosecution.

Tomorrow I'm going to get in touch with a few lawyers, a couple who are friends of mine, to see what we can do.

I recommend that you document as much as you can about this problem so that we can start building a case.

[miscreant]

The best course of action first is to exhaust all avenues - looks better to the courts. The next level would be contacting the NHTSA.

Update:

Click the link below and see instructions below:
http://www.safercar.gov/pages/ODIFAQsRev2.htm#od3

I filed a claim on April 12, under ODI #10116796

Reference this claim in your claim (see below). If you want, you could simply type in the description field "I reference claim OID#10116796. I am having this same problem. My tires are rubbing on my front strut." and add anything else neded. I used the component discriptors of "Suspension: Front" and "Suspension: Front, Macpherson Strut".

This is what the claim read:

"History: The 2004-2005 Pontiac GTO is an imported version of the Australia Holden Monaro. The Holden Manaro comes from the factory with 235/45R17 tires, tires that are generally 235mm (9.25") wide. However, when Pontiac spec'd the GTO for the US, they finally decided on a 10mm wider tire, a 245/45R17 BF Goodrich G-Force KDWS tire. No changes were made to the suspension of the vehicle for US import though.

Current Problem: The larger tire causes rubbing on the front strut, namely and more commonly the passenger side strut. This is evidenced by a rubbing mark on the strut body and many times wear marks on the tires themselves. In some cases, front suspension binding has occurred. In other cases, tire replacement was necessary. This is due, in fact, to the increase in size of the tire that Pontiac has chosen to put on the imported version. Several Pontiac dealerships are aware of this problem, and it has been speculated that Pontiac is aware as well.

Future Problems: Tires are not all the same size. One 245/45R17 tire can be smaller or larger depending on the manufacturer of the tire. There is a strong posibility that when a consumer replaces his/her worn factory tires with another set of tires, of the same "size", that they would be even larger and could cause serious problems.

In light of the Ford-Firestone tire problems, I believe this is a situation that should be researched. Please note: Dealership lot cars would most likely not demonstrate this problem as they will not have been driven enough to cause the rubbing."

[pruettfan]

Apparently you have no idea how class action lawsuits work. Throughout the past two decades the only parties that have recieved anything from a class action case were attorneys. I am sure some of your attorney friends will like the idea because they will score and the consumers will get nothing. There was an RCA case a few years ago due to defective TVs in which the customers recieved a 50 dollar coupon for a new tv and the attorney's recieved nearly 10 million in fees.

[MOPAR Refugee]

I don't know... the older I've gotten the more I've developed a tolerance for imperfection. What kind of standards would you like others to apply to your efforts? Assuming you're trying to do the best you can...

It seems manufacturing variation has some of our GTOs rubbing front tire sidewalls on the struts. Replacing the factory 48mm offset rims with aftermarket 40mm offsets fixes that immediately... and who doesn't want aftermarket wheels? If the answer is "me", than a set of $10 10mm spacers will fix ya right up. A lot less stress... so you can worry about important things like family and world peace...

Don't mean to get all philisophical... can't help it. :cool:

[BlueVaGTO]

Apparently you have no idea how class action lawsuits work. Throughout the past two decades the only parties that have recieved anything from a class action case were attorneys. I am sure some of your attorney friends will like the idea because they will score and the consumers will get nothing. There was an RCA case a few years ago due to defective TVs in which the customers recieved a 50 dollar coupon for a new tv and the attorney's recieved nearly 10 million in fees.

Pruetfan, you are correct.

I keep a check for $.17 (yes, 17 cents) that I got. They spent about $.27 mailing it to me as my part of a class action lawsuit.

The attorney's received millions...because of an error in the way a bank computed interest.

I'll post a pic if anyone doesn't believe me... :)

Wayne

[BigMan95Impala]

i dont need to see it
they aint lying, you wont get ne thing done but make some loser attorney rich and you the consumer get screwed and dont even get the problem fixed
try to solve it out in other ways to see if you can get it that way
otherwise you may have to just eat the cost

[MikeZ28]

I doubt GM will do very much unless somebody dies as a result of this. (Which does not seem impossible, as the average owner probably does not closely inspect their tires regularly).

And like Miscreant described, you can lodge a complaint with NHTSA about it, it seems like it could be a safety concern. If they get enough complaints they may muscle GM into coming up with a fix. (But my expectation is that the "fix" would just be smaller tires, or, different alignment specs--not necessarily good for handling.)

[PMajon]

I don't know... the older I've gotten the more I've developed a tolerance for imperfection. What kind of standards would you like others to apply to your efforts? Assuming you're trying to do the best you can...

It seems manufacturing variation has some of our GTOs rubbing front tire sidewalls on the struts. Replacing the factory 48mm offset rims with aftermarket 40mm offsets fixes that immediately... and who doesn't want aftermarket wheels? If the answer is "me", than a set of $10 10mm spacers will fix ya right up. A lot less stress... so you can worry about important things like family and world peace...

Don't mean to get all philisophical... can't help it. :cool:

I asked about the spacers and they were unwilling to do it. I contacted another dealership, and they were unable to do anything about it either. You're right, though, it's worth it and necessary to follow all possible avenues first before going to such extremes. I'm just pissed that I'm mounting a new set of tires and the front set are going to get chewed up again in the next few months.

[TorridGoat]

How does a strut tower brace inside the the engine bay contact the tires in the wheel well to wear them out? Is the brace causing a misalingment issue that wears the tires? Sorry, I don't understand.

[myfirstv8]

not the brace...the top of the strut assembly....the spring perch

[04IBM GTO]

When the GTO came to US tire size was changed from 235's to 245's very tight up front, you can see it on the inside of the front tires and where the paint is rubbed off the strut.

[dms]

i have note seen any OEM wheels/tires rubbing on the strut braces as of yet.Being with GM dealerships for 31 years, I do have alitle experience with edealign with GM. But if you are rubbing, there has got to be more info as to why they ae not helping you. If you provide more specific info as to why, then I will give you my opinion what I would recommend.

dms

[jak112460@aol.com]

One person dying is not enough. You have to throw in a few maimed and disfigured also. Show a patern and show that GM knew and didn't do anything. GM usually does nothing so that part will be easy.

[04IBM GTO]

The place I got my snow tires had three other GTO's in before me, he told me about the problem before he even took my tires off, thr top of the tire has a shinny, worn 3/4 inch scrape all around inside top right under tread line.Struts also have paint missing on them(silver). My car had 2000 miles on it at the time. The service guy at the dealer told me it was because of the US tire size switch when I went in for oil change at 3000 miles. Clearence was better with the Continental Extreme Contacts I put on for Winter use. Next week I will be putting the stockers back on we will see. It is also noted on my service record(thr complant not any solution) we will see.

[dms]

The place I got my snow tires had three other GTO's in before me, he told me about the problem before he even took my tires off, thr top of the tire has a shinny, worn 3/4 inch scrape all around inside top right under tread line.Struts also have paint missing on them(silver). My car had 2000 miles on it at the time. The service guy at the dealer told me it was because of the US tire size switch when I went in for oil change at 3000 miles. Clearence was better with the Continental Extreme Contacts I put on for Winter use. Next week I will be putting the stockers back on we will see. It is also noted on my service record(thr complant not any solution) we will see.


this could be a potential safety concern. Assuming the alignment has not been altered (1.0-1.5 negative cambers) I would contact Pontiac consumer relations to document the concern and insist on a resolution. I would contact the service manager first and tell him you wnat no rub. Request he contact technical assistance on it. If no one will help you, then go to BBB. Go after them for the cost of some very nice quality wheels and tires for a minimum. This ought to get GM's attention.
dms

[spd98]

this could be a potential safety concern. Assuming the alignment has not been altered (1.0-1.5 negative cambers) I would contact Pontiac consumer relations to document the concern and insist on a resolution. I would contact the service manager first and tell him you wnat no rub. Request he contact technical assistance on it. If no one will help you, then go to BBB. Go after them for the cost of some very nice quality wheels and tires for a minimum. This ought to get GM's attention.
dms

I was told that because the tolerances for the camber angle were fairly wide that some cars will be more likley to do it than others. This is from a guy at a local tire store not a dealer BTW.

[IBM/M6]

This is too bad cause the car is a great design . If anything else bad comes from it they will definately discontinue it . Sorry just think lawyers are parasitic on society as a whole .

On that note I would try another brand of tire with a stiffer sidewall if you are already replacing them . I have aftermarket wheels and run the S03 pole positions with no rubbing at all . My stockers had no rubbing at all either . Its worth the trouble to insist on a proper alignment from the dealer . They should also foot the bill on the tires . try the bfg kdw instead .It looks to have a much better sidewall design and tread pattern . dealer should go for this as they can buy any tire they wish at great discounts over what you or I would pay .http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/jnt4143/gf orce_kdw_large.jpg

[Xavier311]

When all else fails, contact the media. They'd LOVE to hear about this one.

[94TransAmGT]

I'd like see what's involved organizing a class action lawsuit against GM regarding the strut tower brace wearing away the inside of the tires on our cars. The inside of my tires are completely bald and the dealership is unwilling / unable to do anything about it. I'm getting a new set of tires installed tomorrow along with an alignment. I'm going to document as much as I can about this problem.

Does anyone have any information / experiences about organizing a class action lawsuit? I was part of one a couple years ago which resulted in a successful prosecution.

Tomorrow I'm going to get in touch with a few lawyers, a couple who are friends of mine, to see what we can do.

I recommend that you document as much as you can about this problem so that we can start building a case.

If it is then a factory fix may be the result. That might include spacers or a "recall" and a change to the tire sizes.

IF your car is NOT stock- forget about it cause you "altered" it.

94 TA

[NetJunkie]

Good luck. 350Z owners have been fighting a camber problem causing really fast tire wear on the fronts since the beginning. There are a lot more of those out there than GTOs and so far they haven't gotten it solved.

[LordGriNz]

Just go in every three months and get new tires on warranty, wont be long before
they come up with a solution or pay the piper every three months.

[CMNTMXR57]

Statistics don't lie.

Out of all the members on this board, your car is the only one I've read about exhibiting this problem. That isn't enough "mass" to start anything.

It could be just as much a manufacturing tolerances than anything else or even alignment issues. I don't know, I've never been under your car.

But even say if you did get GM to do something, they aren't going to make these cars long enough for anything to be the result and let's say optimistically they did, our luck would be smaller tires as the fix in which case we'd all be pointing the finger at you for having microscopic tires on our cars which hurt the handling more than they fix the problem.

One reason the dealership won't install the spacers is liability. It isn't a matter of whether or not that can be done, they just don't want to be held accountable for installing a set of spacers, which then offsets the weight of the vehicle out on the lug studs more, causing them to snap at highway speeds, putting you into a wall. That's all!

[JJKJ]

Forgive my ingnorance in specific knowledge of the GTO, but the way most strut equipped cars are set up, your camber setting will have no affect on this problem. Camber on most strut equipped cars is done at the top of the strut tower by moving the entire strut assembly inwards (neg) or out (pos). Sometimes the lower control arm will have some adjustment as well. However, in either of these cases the wheel/hub assembly is mounted without any adjustment capability to the strut assembly. With more negative camber, yes the top of the wheel/tire will be tilted inward more, but the entire strut assembly will be tilted inwards as well. The whole wheel/tire/brake/strut/etc. assembly moves inwards as a whole, not independent of each other. This may not be the best way to discribe it, it's kind of difficult to put into words. At any rate, that's with most cars, I'm not saying for sure that's the way the GTO is configured until I pull off a wheel to double check.

[PMajon]

Statistics don't lie.

Out of all the members on this board, your car is the only one I've read about exhibiting this problem. That isn't enough "mass" to start anything.

It could be just as much a manufacturing tolerances than anything else or even alignment issues. I don't know, I've never been under your car.

But even say if you did get GM to do something, they aren't going to make these cars long enough for anything to be the result and let's say optimistically they did, our luck would be smaller tires as the fix in which case we'd all be pointing the finger at you for having microscopic tires on our cars which hurt the handling more than they fix the problem.

One reason the dealership won't install the spacers is liability. It isn't a matter of whether or not that can be done, they just don't want to be held accountable for installing a set of spacers, which then offsets the weight of the vehicle out on the lug studs more, causing them to snap at highway speeds, putting you into a wall. That's all!

I searched the board for an hour regarding this topic. It's happening to a lot of people. Some people are even grinding the strut tower to reduce the contact on the tire.

I understand the liability issue for the dealership regarding this. I don't expect the dealership to do anything about it on their own.

When I installed new tires yesterday I noticed that they wouldn't even spin freely because of the strut rubbing. I had to hit the brakes fairly hard today and I could even hear them rubbing.

I'm just going to document as much as I can and pursue this until there is a resolution.

[miscreant]

Out of all the members on this board, your car is the only one I've read about exhibiting this problem. That isn't enough "mass" to start anything.

I have to gracefully disagree. I've read a myriad (!) of these complaints on this forum, and seen them locally. I've talked to several tire shops, like Discount Tire, GroupA, and even a contact at TireRack who have seen this first hand. Most are not near to this degree. Mine was merely a slight "polishing" of my strut body by the tire, but there was no indicator on the tire. But several I have read here have actually had binding issues at times.

I think where the real key factor is going to come in actually relates to a good protion of the Magnuson-Moss. When our tires wear out, many of use will not have the option to put any 245/45R17 tire on. Many people already have done different tires and experienced binding and rubbing.

Contact with the strut is a serious issue. NHTSA NEEDS to know about this, they are still feeling the effects of TREAD which was instigated by the Ford-Firestone problem (hey, TIRES again!).

Again, contact NHTSA above. It's probably the best recourse.

[miscreant]

Forgive my ingnorance in specific knowledge of the GTO, but the way most strut equipped cars are set up, your camber setting will have no affect on this problem. Camber on most strut equipped cars is done at the top of the strut tower by moving the entire strut assembly inwards (neg) or out (pos). Sometimes the lower control arm will have some adjustment as well. However, in either of these cases the wheel/hub assembly is mounted without any adjustment capability to the strut assembly. With more negative camber, yes the top of the wheel/tire will be tilted inward more, but the entire strut assembly will be tilted inwards as well. The whole wheel/tire/brake/strut/etc. assembly moves inwards as a whole, not independent of each other. This may not be the best way to discribe it, it's kind of difficult to put into words. At any rate, that's with most cars, I'm not saying for sure that's the way the GTO is configured until I pull off a wheel to double check.
You are right to some extent, but the GTO has a bolt/screw that adjusts how the strut bolts to the hub (adjusts how the top bolt and bottom bolt align) which adjusts camber.

Most after market camber plates do as you described. Some strut cars have some adjustment in the lower strut where it bolts to the hub, usually its an oblong lower or upper bolt which is turned to effect the angle of the strut. But the adjustments are typically minimal.

[kn7671]

I have a little rubbing on the strut body as well. It is minor, but normal driving will NOT cause the tire to wear against the strut.

What WILL cause the tire to rub the strut:
1. Performance driving around turns/curves.
2. Under inflated tires.

When driving around turns, the tread on the tire will stay planted on the pavement, but the rim will push outward or inward on the tire. This will cause the entire tread on the tires to move closer to the strut.

Stiffer sidewall tires will help reduce the chance of contact, as will differently designed tire sidewalls. Moving to 18" or 19" wheels and tires will also reduce the chance of contact even more, as this reduces the amount of tire sidewall, thus less tire to move on the wheel.

[dmonty]

Statistics don't lie.

Out of all the members on this board, your car is the only one I've read about exhibiting this problem.


I have had it happen to me as well. Needed 4 brand new tires around 18,000 miles. I was NOT happy.

_DM

[04IBM GTO]

Statistics don't lie.

Out of all the members on this board, your car is the only one I've read about exhibiting this problem. That isn't enough "mass" to start anything.

It could be just as much a manufacturing tolerances than anything else or even alignment issues. I don't know, I've never been under your car.

But even say if you did get GM to do something, they aren't going to make these cars long enough for anything to be the result and let's say optimistically they did, our luck would be smaller tires as the fix in which case we'd all be pointing the finger at you for having microscopic tires on our cars which hurt the handling more than they fix the problem.

One reason the dealership won't install the spacers is liability. It isn't a matter of whether or not that can be done, they just don't want to be held accountable for installing a set of spacers, which then offsets the weight of the vehicle out on the lug studs more, causing them to snap at highway speeds, putting you into a wall. That's all!
I did not even bring it up it was another member with the same problem I just agreed I had the same problem. Today after all this tire talk I took off my Continental Extreme Contact 245/45/17 tires(used for winter) and put back on my original tires with 2000 miles. The Continentals had no sign of this problem what so ever, I put the tires with the strut rub on the rear,we will see what happens. Also there has been At least 5 people I know of with same issue, I do not have your mechanical ability, just letting you guys no what I have seen and what I have been told. Thanks, Jimmy

[miscreant]

I updated my post above, post #2. I think everyone with this problem should take the 3 minutes it took me to file the claim. And if everyone references the same claim, it will look even better.

[miscreant]

I have a little rubbing on the strut body as well. It is minor, but normal driving will NOT cause the tire to wear against the strut.

What WILL cause the tire to rub the strut:
1. Performance driving around turns/curves.
2. Under inflated tires.

This is completely false. We had several GTO's come back with wear marks after a 10 mile PDI on a brand new units. We even had a couple that you could feel rub. I ran 35psi and never broke her in the first 1000 miles I owned her, and that was mainly 65 mile round trip on the highway, and I still showed rubbing.

Normal driving causes it as well.

And moving to lower sidewalls does not necessarily fix it unless you choose the approriate tires.

Point is, rubbing like this should not be occuring.

[kn7671]

This is completely false. We had several GTO's come back with wear marks after a 10 mile PDI on a brand new units. We even had a couple that you could feel rub. I ran 35psi and never broke her in the first 1000 miles I owned her, and that was mainly 65 mile round trip on the highway, and I still showed rubbing.

Normal driving causes it as well.

And moving to lower sidewalls does not necessarily fix it unless you choose the approriate tires.

Point is, rubbing like this should not be occuring.

Sorry, should have said MY CAR does not exhibiy any rubbing during normal driving... (highway, normal turn speeds, etc...)

[CMNTMXR57]

Ok, I have not read it in widespread threads.

How many people out of 15,728 GTO's produced exhibit this problem?

You'd need 158 GTO's with this problem to account for even 1% of the total population of vehicles and I bet both the NHSTA and GM will require more proof than that.

[GTWhoa]

Statistics don't lie.

Out of all the members on this board, your car is the only one I've read about exhibiting this problem. That isn't enough "mass" to start anything.

Just so everyone knows what we are talking about here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/srleen/stru twear.jpg

[miscreant]

Just so everyone knows what we are talking about here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/srleen/stru twear.jpg
The position of that rub indicates it's rubbing with the tires straight, or basically straight.

[PMajon]

Ok, I have not read it in widespread threads.

How many people out of 15,728 GTO's produced exhibit this problem?

You'd need 158 GTO's with this problem to account for even 1% of the total population of vehicles and I bet both the NHSTA and GM will require more proof than that.

Not necessarily true. Acura had a transmission problem with the 2002 to 2004 TL Type-S that caused the auto trans to "slip" from 5th to 2nd. The two or three cases were widely publicised to the point that Acura extended the tranny warranty on ALL TL's to 100,000 miles and recalled all TL's to have the automatic trans clutch packs inspected. Later they recalled the tranny again and installed an oil-jet because people were complaining about hard shifts.

[miscreant]

Ok, I have not read it in widespread threads.

How many people out of 15,728 GTO's produced exhibit this problem?

You'd need 158 GTO's with this problem to account for even 1% of the total population of vehicles and I bet both the NHSTA and GM will require more proof than that.
This I would basically agree with. However, considering just how many I've seen, I'd say that 50% or more of the cars I've personally witnessed have this problem. This is a natural design flaw from the aspect that Pontiac put 10mm wider tires on the GTO. This has obviously resulted in this rubbing issue, and isn't just a special circumstance. I would imagine as alignments change on these cars, more and more people will notice it. This is a condition that most people don't notice, and therefore do not know to look for it. But just because someone doesn't notice it, does not mean it's not a condition that could cause problems. I also would venture to guess that as more people replace their worn stock tires, we'll start to see more problems, as has been witnessed lately just on these boards. A local shop on39th expressway here replaced stocks with Falkens, and the customer came back with cords exposed on the inside of the tires and complained of not being able to turn the wheel.

I don't think 1% would be hard to obtain. I'd venture to guess that 15% or more of GTO's rub, just most don't know it...yet.

[SoCal Goat]

I consider a class action suit worthless to me.
A better solution would be for a recall campaign that would actually fix the problem. Just my .02.

[Grown Man]

I have this problem as well. It ruined my right front tire as well. I will file a NHTSA claim too.

I think a very high number of GTOs have this problem, but most people haven't taken off their wheels to look.

When I buy new tires, I'm going to get 235/45/17s.

This makes me angry, not because I think cars should be "perfect", but this is just such a boneheaded thing to do. If I car has a problem with a complex mechanical part, or something that arises that was unforeseeable, that's one thing. But if you're going to change the tire size from the Aussie fitment, how do you NOT check to make sure the tires have sufficient clearance??!?!? That is classic GM b.s. and its just the type of laziness that has gotten American manufacturers the reputation for poor quality that they have.

[Chevelleguy]

I also have the problem and I noticed it on my 04 with 200 miles on it. I now have 2000 miles so I guess I better take the wheel off to check how bad it is.........what a bunch of crap!

GM should give a wheel & tire replacement credit to the owners of each car this problem exists on. I bet most of us have this problem but are unaware of it! Everyone......check your right tires and strut assembly!

[AutoXr]

I also have the problem and I noticed it on my 04 with 200 miles on it. I now have 2000 miles so I guess I better take the wheel off to check how bad it is.........what a bunch of crap!

GM should give a wheel & tire replacement credit to the owners of each car this problem exists on. I bet most of us have this problem but are unaware of it! Everyone......check your right tires and strut assembly!

I suspect few will like the solution offered, if one is offered. The safest-cheapest solution will likely be a smaller tire.

[dms]

Thiis is what I would like to do for all of you:

If all of you who have contact will give me the miles, VIN#, and where the contact is (left/right side) I will give this info to Technical assistance with VIN's and see what they have to say.
You can email me the vins on my work email so the public will not see them. Also need to know the severity of the rub. Is it a "polish kind of thing, or is it aggressive. Also need to know if you have modified the suspension/wheels/tires

thanks
mike

[PMajon]

Sounds good. I'll photograph my tires so you all can see the severity of the problem. It's pretty bad.

[GoatChs]

I suspect few will like the solution offered, if one is offered. The safest-cheapest solution will likely be a smaller tire.

Or a 5mm spacer plate...

[rferr]

Well I just did an inspection. No rubbing or unusual tire damage/wear here. The clearance is incredibly tight though. Its actually amazing it isn't rubbing.

[PMajon]

Well I just did an inspection. No rubbing or unusual tire damage/wear here. The clearance is incredibly tight though. Its actually amazing it isn't rubbing.

When was your car manufactured?

[rferr]

When was your car manufactured?


Feb 04.

[dms]

i TALKED TO TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE ON THIS. THERE HAS BEEN ONLY 1 OTHER CASE REPORTED TO THEM IN THE COUNTRY. THIS IS WHAT PISSES ME OFF ABOUT SO MANY OF MY PEER GROUPS. THIS KIND OF STUFF SHOULD/MUST BE CALLED IN AND REPORTED.

IF YOU ARE HAVING THIS PROBLEM, YOU MUST BRING YOUR VEHICLE TO YOUR PONTIAC DEALER. I OPENED AND THEN CLOSED CASE # 811-8631. YOUR DEALER CAN CALL TAC AND REVIEW THE CASE. I THINK WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IS TO INCREASE CAMBERS. PREFERRED SPEC IS -.2, THEN PLUS OR MINUS .5. SO YOU COULD CHANGE CAMBERS TO .3 DEGREES AND STILL STAY WITHIN GM SPECS. THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO RECOMMEND.

NOW IF YOU HAVE CUSTOM WHEELS AND TIRES OR SUSPENSION MODS, THIS WILL NOT WORK AND DO NOT GO TO THE DEALER FOR A FRE REPAIR.
BUT IF IT IS A STOCK SUSPENSION/WHEELS AND TIRES, THIS IS THE FIX.

TO PUT MORE SUPPORT TO PUSH THIS ISSUE, YOU MUST INSIST YOUR SERVICE MANAGER OPEN A CASE. IF THEY ARE NOT DOING SO, THEN TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE HAS NO IDEA THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM.

[LordGriNz]

i TALKED TO TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE ON THIS. THERE HAS BEEN ONLY 1 OTHER CASE REPORTED TO THEM IN THE COUNTRY. THIS IS WHAT PISSES ME OFF ABOUT SO MANY OF MY PEER GROUPS. THIS KIND OF STUFF SHOULD/MUST BE CALLED IN AND REPORTED.

IF YOU ARE HAVING THIS PROBLEM, YOU MUST BRING YOUR VEHICLE TO YOUR PONTIAC DEALER. I OPENED AND THEN CLOSED CASE # 811-8631. YOUR DEALER CAN CALL TAC AND REVIEW THE CASE. I THINK WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IS TO INCREASE CAMBERS. PREFERRED SPEC IS -.2, THEN PLUS OR MINUS .5. SO YOU COULD CHANGE CAMBERS TO .3 DEGREES AND STILL STAY WITHIN GM SPECS. THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO RECOMMEND.

NOW IF YOU HAVE CUSTOM WHEELS AND TIRES OR SUSPENSION MODS, THIS WILL NOT WORK AND DO NOT GO TO THE DEALER FOR A FRE REPAIR.
BUT IF IT IS A STOCK SUSPENSION/WHEELS AND TIRES, THIS IS THE FIX.

TO PUT MORE SUPPORT TO PUSH THIS ISSUE, YOU MUST INSIST YOUR SERVICE MANAGER OPEN A CASE. IF THEY ARE NOT DOING SO, THEN TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE HAS NO IDEA THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM.

The dealer is our last stop, they need to be contacting GM, we shouldnt
have to hound them to do so. If the system isnt working, then maybe
GM corporate should remind their dealers, or take over customer support
calls.

[why2kmax]

i TALKED TO TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE ON THIS. THERE HAS BEEN ONLY 1 OTHER CASE REPORTED TO THEM IN THE COUNTRY. THIS IS WHAT PISSES ME OFF ABOUT SO MANY OF MY PEER GROUPS. THIS KIND OF STUFF SHOULD/MUST BE CALLED IN AND REPORTED.

IF YOU ARE HAVING THIS PROBLEM, YOU MUST BRING YOUR VEHICLE TO YOUR PONTIAC DEALER. I OPENED AND THEN CLOSED CASE # 811-8631. YOUR DEALER CAN CALL TAC AND REVIEW THE CASE. I THINK WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IS TO INCREASE CAMBERS. PREFERRED SPEC IS -.2, THEN PLUS OR MINUS .5. SO YOU COULD CHANGE CAMBERS TO .3 DEGREES AND STILL STAY WITHIN GM SPECS. THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO RECOMMEND.

NOW IF YOU HAVE CUSTOM WHEELS AND TIRES OR SUSPENSION MODS, THIS WILL NOT WORK AND DO NOT GO TO THE DEALER FOR A FRE REPAIR.
BUT IF IT IS A STOCK SUSPENSION/WHEELS AND TIRES, THIS IS THE FIX.

TO PUT MORE SUPPORT TO PUSH THIS ISSUE, YOU MUST INSIST YOUR SERVICE MANAGER OPEN A CASE. IF THEY ARE NOT DOING SO, THEN TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE HAS NO IDEA THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM.

Gee, wonder if that one person was ME? I took my car in on 29 March for cluster fix, rear end noise and told them both of my fronts were rubbing the strut towers. They said the mechanic found a TSB for it and they special ordered 4 bolts, and 6 nuts to 'fix" it. They had my car for 2.5 weeks so in my elation to get my car back I forgot to ask what the TSB # was but the parts they installed are

4 11090821 bolt 6.009
4 92138205 nut 6.164
2 11084241 nut 6.172

I dont know what the last 6.xxxx number is but its on the invoice so I listed it.

I also noticed that the camber was prob a bit off on my front tires, the insides of the tires (tread) were worn a bit more than the middle or outside, or thats what I assume.

I posted about this problem 3 weeks ago in "front tires rubbing struts TSB" thread, cant believe no one has seen it. If you look at any thread re tires you will see people having the problem

I havent been able to check yet IF the fix worked or not. I plan on painting the rub marks on my struts, running it for a while and seeing if the paint is there or gone when after 500-1000 miles.

FWIW I have stock size tires and stock rims, 35psi and in 6500 miles I havent driven the car much more than 75+ on I-95. Nothing terribly agressive. Just commuting to work. I had paint worn from one section of the strut on each side, and there were also 3 more rub marks below the top-most one with the missing paint. It looked like 4 stripes.

I figured the fix would be spacers and longer front studs but I guess not. Least not yet.

will letcha know
Jeff

[PMajon]

i TALKED TO TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE ON THIS. THERE HAS BEEN ONLY 1 OTHER CASE REPORTED TO THEM IN THE COUNTRY. THIS IS WHAT PISSES ME OFF ABOUT SO MANY OF MY PEER GROUPS. THIS KIND OF STUFF SHOULD/MUST BE CALLED IN AND REPORTED.

IF YOU ARE HAVING THIS PROBLEM, YOU MUST BRING YOUR VEHICLE TO YOUR PONTIAC DEALER. I OPENED AND THEN CLOSED CASE # 811-8631. YOUR DEALER CAN CALL TAC AND REVIEW THE CASE. I THINK WHAT THEY WANT TO DO IS TO INCREASE CAMBERS. PREFERRED SPEC IS -.2, THEN PLUS OR MINUS .5. SO YOU COULD CHANGE CAMBERS TO .3 DEGREES AND STILL STAY WITHIN GM SPECS. THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO RECOMMEND.

NOW IF YOU HAVE CUSTOM WHEELS AND TIRES OR SUSPENSION MODS, THIS WILL NOT WORK AND DO NOT GO TO THE DEALER FOR A FRE REPAIR.
BUT IF IT IS A STOCK SUSPENSION/WHEELS AND TIRES, THIS IS THE FIX.

TO PUT MORE SUPPORT TO PUSH THIS ISSUE, YOU MUST INSIST YOUR SERVICE MANAGER OPEN A CASE. IF THEY ARE NOT DOING SO, THEN TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE HAS NO IDEA THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM.

I will definitely do so. It's odd that there is only one other reported case of this problem when so many of us have experienced it and complained about it.

Also, how would we go about contacting a GM regional manager about this problem?

[PMajon]

I just called my service manager again and made sure that they logged the problem. He didn't mention anything about logging it under a case number, so I have no idea if this is going to be brought to GM's attention or logged in such a way that they are aware of it.

[Baaa]

i have note seen any OEM wheels/tires rubbing on the strut braces as of yet.Being with GM dealerships for 31 years, I do have alitle experience with edealign with GM. But if you are rubbing, there has got to be more info as to why they ae not helping you. If you provide more specific info as to why, then I will give you my opinion what I would recommend.

dms

Mine are rubbing as well as every other GTO with the origional wheels tires I ahve seen in person so far which is a hell of a lot. They all rub. Most just dont know it yet.

[1stGOAT]

I suspect few will like the solution offered, if one is offered. The safest-cheapest solution will likely be a smaller tire.

Not necessarily the safest choice. 245/45 tires are marginal for hard braking. Going with a smaller front tire will take you in the wrong direction in terms of braking ability and an increased safety risk possibly.

The idea is to prevent rubbing. First is to determine cause. Poor design.... destined to rub by design... or .... is some part not holding alignment etc. of course if it is an alignment issue those are mighty tight tolerances.

It may be as simple as 5mm spacers for the wheels.... don't know. Whatever the problem is GM made it and sold it, so they need to fix it.

[gto_in_nc]

Mine are rubbing as well as every other GTO with the origional wheels tires I ahve seen in person so far which is a hell of a lot. They all rub. Most just dont know it yet.

I've got just under 12,000 miles and just over 12 months on my OEM tires and have zero rubbing. Inspected all four tires yesterday, just because this thread had me worrying...

[PMajon]

I've got just under 12,000 miles and just over 12 months on my OEM tires and have zero rubbing. Inspected all four tires yesterday, just because this thread had me worrying...

The problem may be with earlier GTO's. When was your GTO manufactured?

[why2kmax]

The problem may be with earlier GTO's. When was your GTO manufactured?

My build date is August 04 which is prob close to the end and mine rub :cry:

[CSiJason]

Not necessarily the safest choice. 245/45 tires are marginal for hard braking. Going with a smaller front tire will take you in the wrong direction in terms of braking ability and an increased safety risk possibly.

I highly doubt a 235/45 is going to make a massive difference. If anything, tread compound and pattern will make the greatest difference in acceleration / deceleration.


The idea is to prevent rubbing. First is to determine cause. Poor design.... destined to rub by design... or .... is some part not holding alignment etc. of course if it is an alignment issue those are mighty tight tolerances.


For whatever reason, Pontiac decided to ship the cars with 245's. Aussie's get 235's and dont have this problem. As above, they dont have braking problems either.


It may be as simple as 5mm spacers for the wheels.... don't know. Whatever the problem is GM made it and sold it, so they need to fix it.

The camber adjustment should be the easiest fix. Personaly, my car doesnt show signs of it yet. Perhaps I dont drive my car agressive enough. :burnout: Wheel spacers would be a fix but personaly I would avoid using them unless completely necessary.

[1973corvette]

count me in....mine is rubs....both sides.

[dms]

I spent a considerable amount of time on this today. There is not TSB for this concern. I opened and closed a case today and gave you the case number so your service manager can call TAC and see what they recommended. The only other TAC case was resolved by alignment adjustments

These are the steps I would recommend:
1. Communicate this thread with your service manager. Tell them TAC has a potential fix, and they need to change the alignment to the positive end of camber settings. The GTO members I have talked to are not having severe rubbing, just a polishing if you will of the inner sidewalls. This is happening on very hard cornering. Many poeple may not be experiencign the concern because hey are not "shooting the corners" so to speak. Tire pressures need to be 35PSI cold, and no less.

2. If the service manager is unwilling to call TAC for you, then go to another dealership and never see them again. And you can register a complaint with Pontiac consumer relations and the dealerships owner or general manager.
3. There is no direct way for anyone to tgalk to the factory rep. To be able to communcaite with him, you hav eto go through the dealer or consumer relations
4. Do not underestiamte the importance of the 35PSI tire pressure. You will get more tire squirm with lesser pressure

hope this helps
mike
dms

[WickedGoat]

I just got home from work and took a peek at the wheel in relationship to the strut. You can visibly see that the tire is extremely close to the strut. I stuck my hand in there and tried to wedge my finger in between the tire and the strut and it wouldn't fit. Didn't see any damage to the tire, won't know about the strut until the tires come off. I am beginning to agree that there may be an issue with this, some just haven't checked or seen anything yet.

[BlueVaGTO]

I just got home from work and took a peek at the wheel in relationship to the strut. You can visibly see that the tire is extremely close to the strut. I stuck my hand in there and tried to wedge my finger in between the tire and the strut and it wouldn't fit. Didn't see any damage to the tire, won't know about the strut until the tires come off. I am beginning to agree that there may be an issue with this, some just haven't checked or seen anything yet.

It may simply be an alignment issue...

My 04 is exactly like yours. VERY close. No rubbing yet...

Wayne

[PMajon]

Well, I got my car back from the dealership today. They did an alignment and they told me that they were able to adjust the struts to eliminate the rubbing. I shoved some thin paperboard between the tire and the strut to make sure. Previously I wasn't even able to do that. But now it seemed OK. I'll continue to monitor it. My old tires are at my Dad's house, so I'll stop by sometime today and take pictures of them for you all to see.

[miscreant]

Here's a question. I have't jumped under there to really check myself before I make a complete a$$ of myself, but we have crappy strut rod bushings. The front suspension from what I understand can move up to 1" or more in these bushings. Could these be contributing to the tire moving close to the strut? Or is the hub secured to the strut 100% in movement?

[MOPAR Refugee]

First, given the number of testimonials to tire/strut interference I retract my earlier "philosophical" statement re expectations.

Second, even though my Oct build GTO is free from any evidence of this problem, from my perspective as an engineer I agree the anecdotal numbers suggest an unacceptable design/production problem.

Third, I applaud Miscreant's and DMS's efforts to quantify and document the problem. I advocate that an anticipated GM response of adjusting out to a more positive camber setting is unacceptable, as this compromises performance in an already understeer biased chassis. Most effective in my mind would be a front hub replacement incorporating a decrease in effective wheel offset relative to the vehicle centerline. I suggest everyone experiencing problems follow through on notification to NHTSA and GM via the channels outlined by Mis/DMS.

On the pragmatic side, I haven't researched but anticipate an aftermarket solution does or will exist in a camber/caster adjustment plate that will allow pulling in the top of the strut so no neg camber is lost as the strut is pulled away from the hub carrier...increasing tire clearance.

[WickedGoat]

I am just wondering now..............Since I ordered the Holden V2 rims from Howie at Arrowhead, and am going with 245 40 18's all the way around, am I going to have problems with these if I do or don't now? Haven't read anything about this particular size tire doing any damage so maybe that is a good sign? Opinions anyone?

[miscreant]

I am just wondering now..............Since I ordered the Holden V2 rims from Howie at Arrowhead, and am going with 245 40 18's all the way around, am I going to have problems with these if I do or don't now? Haven't read anything about this particular size tire doing any damage so maybe that is a good sign? Opinions anyone?
Some people have experienced problems with the 245/40s. It depends on your tire selection.

[miscreant]

On the pragmatic side, I haven't researched but anticipate an aftermarket solution does or will exist in a camber/caster adjustment plate that will allow pulling in the top of the strut so no neg camber is lost as the strut is pulled away from the hub carrier...increasing tire clearance.

Gravana I believe has a camber plate from Australia. That's a perfect solution to counter the effects. Pull it away at the hub, bring it back at the strut tower - could feasibly give you a couple mm of clearance.

[MOPAR Refugee]

Gravana I believe has a camber plate from Australia.

Good info... I think that's the best independent solution. I neglected to reinforce my earlier statements...that common aftermarket 40mm offset wheels will buy a solution. I also disagree with assertions that spacers are inherently unsafe, as long as they are kept to reasonable dimensions. At the same time, I agree spacers are not the best approach, but may be a reasonable balance of cost and effect for those wishing to retain stock wheels.

[miscreant]

Good info... I think that's the best independent solution. I neglected to reinforce my earlier statements...that common aftermarket 40mm offset wheels will buy a solution. I also disagree with assertions that spacers are inherently unsafe, as long as they are kept to reasonable dimensions. At the same time, I agree spacers are not the best approach, but may be a reasonable balance of cost and effect for those wishing to retain stock wheels.
What I don't like about spacers would be that they would be a GM solution. I think the problem of someone losing one or not really understanding what they are for would be a problem. And imagine if they would require new lugs. Longer lugs would be installed, which means if the customer lost the spacer and tried to install the wheels without them, could possible bottom out som regular lugs (say they didn't use the open lugs) and not tighen their wheels completely...

[MOPAR Refugee]

Undeniably good points... And likely shared by GM. Hopefully not a proposed solution. Liability is a powerful motivator.

[dms]

I did not recieve a call bck form Colby, Brand Quality manager for GTO. But did see a GTO today with the rub. He had 28PSI tire pressures. This was too low. Also the rub issue, a result of inspection from this board, was extremely slight, and did not even "polish" the tire. The customer was honest with me in that he does do some very aggressive driving; this the lowering of tire pressures.

We put the pressures up to 35PSI where they are recommended on the tire plaque, and we painted the shock to watch itf there is no contact. (Did not want to roadtest with him. He can get alittle crazy driving.

My opinion on spacers is as long as you have the adequate threads and we are talking very thin spacers, I have not probelm with them. Our lug bolts are plenty long enough for a 1/8"-1/4" spacer (i think) If I remember my college stuff, I think as long as you have the width of the lug nut in thread contact, you should be OK. Any addtional comments on this??

Talking to the engineer, there is a very specific reason for GM in the US to use this 245/45R17 tire. Could be related to braking, load, ABS and even CAFE issues. Not sure if we will ever know the axact reason. But it does appear the only ones experiencing the contact are the guys bringing the vehicles to the max handling capabilities. If this assumption is incorrect, then please mention it on the board so we can expand our info. I am not saying, by any means, the contact is OK, becasue I do not. Juse trying to get more info to be informed, becasue I will push this as far as I can. Have gotten into trouble with GM many times for less issues than this. But that is why I am what I am.
thanks
dms
mike

[miscreant]

I did not recieve a call bck form Colby, Brand Quality manager for GTO. But did see a GTO today with the rub. He had 28PSI tire pressures. This was too low. Also the rub issue, a result of inspection from this board, was extremely slight, and did not even "polish" the tire. The customer was honest with me in that he does do some very aggressive driving; this the lowering of tire pressures.

We put the pressures up to 35PSI where they are recommended on the tire plaque, and we painted the shock to watch itf there is no contact. (Did not want to roadtest with him. He can get alittle crazy driving.

My opinion on spacers is as long as you have the adequate threads and we are talking very thin spacers, I have not probelm with them. Our lug bolts are plenty long enough for a 1/8"-1/4" spacer (i think) If I remember my college stuff, I think as long as you have the width of the lug nut in thread contact, you should be OK. Any addtional comments on this??

Talking to the engineer, there is a very specific reason for GM in the US to use this 245/45R17 tire. Could be related to braking, load, ABS and even CAFE issues. Not sure if we will ever know the axact reason. But it does appear the only ones experiencing the contact are the guys bringing the vehicles to the max handling capabilities. If this assumption is incorrect, then please mention it on the board so we can expand our info. I am not saying, by any means, the contact is OK, becasue I do not. Juse trying to get more info to be informed, becasue I will push this as far as I can. Have gotten into trouble with GM many times for less issues than this. But that is why I am what I am.
thanks
dms
mike
As stated previously, I had this on mine (and I babied here with highway miles) and have seen it on GTO's with very few miles. I would imagine that it would probably be an alignment spec above anything else.

Probably the reason they couldn't use the 235/45 was because of load reasons. However, it's really because they were locked into a contract to use the KDWS, so they had to go to the 245/45. They could have moved to a different brand/model 235/45 with the appropriate load capabilities, but they would have had to break contract...

[1973corvette]

I did not recieve a call bck form Colby, Brand Quality manager for GTO. But did see a GTO today with the rub. He had 28PSI tire pressures. This was too low. Also the rub issue, a result of inspection from this board, was extremely slight, and did not even "polish" the tire. The customer was honest with me in that he does do some very aggressive driving; this the lowering of tire pressures.

We put the pressures up to 35PSI where they are recommended on the tire plaque, and we painted the shock to watch itf there is no contact. (Did not want to roadtest with him. He can get alittle crazy driving.

My opinion on spacers is as long as you have the adequate threads and we are talking very thin spacers, I have not probelm with them. Our lug bolts are plenty long enough for a 1/8"-1/4" spacer (i think) If I remember my college stuff, I think as long as you have the width of the lug nut in thread contact, you should be OK. Any addtional comments on this??

Talking to the engineer, there is a very specific reason for GM in the US to use this 245/45R17 tire. Could be related to braking, load, ABS and even CAFE issues. Not sure if we will ever know the axact reason. But it does appear the only ones experiencing the contact are the guys bringing the vehicles to the max handling capabilities. If this assumption is incorrect, then please mention it on the board so we can expand our info. I am not saying, by any means, the contact is OK, becasue I do not. Juse trying to get more info to be informed, becasue I will push this as far as I can. Have gotten into trouble with GM many times for less issues than this. But that is why I am what I am.
thanks
dms
mike


I do drive agressively from a handling perspective......no excuse for this issue though. Tires are at 35PSI both sides are rubbing. I am going to the dealer two weeks from today because will be on travel.

BTW - thanks for the work on this one DMS.

[IBM/M6]

I must change my previous post by saying that a vehicle factory equipted should not have this problem regardless of where and when it was built . I Have aftermarket wheels with 245/40/18 Bridgestone Pole S03 all around with no rubbing at all . I must admit if I was having the same problems I would be pissed . Not sure course of action , but I would probably be the one to drive my car up my salesmans ass . Back to reality .

I would be at my dealer every chance you could get. Relentless , every time you hear it rub or see it rub (of course have them paint the rub spot on the strut every time for verification purposes) . If they cant fix it file a lemon law claim . A car that self destructs side wall of a tire is dangerous as you never know how fast you will be going when it gives out . 75-80 on the highway with your family in the car on a front tire blowout = possible fatality situation. I would call that a drivability problem . Definate cause for action .

[gto_in_nc]

...We put the pressures up to 35PSI where they are recommended on the tire plaque...

First, thanks to all who have contributed to the valuable info in this thread! While I don't have this problem with my OEM tires (it is close, however), I will be needing to replace them very soon (I've gotten nearly 12k miles out of them!) and this will then become an immediate concern for me again.

Second, and something I pointed out to the service department at my local Pontiac place. While the sticker on the door says 35 psi, the manual very clearly says 30 psi for loads of up to 470 lbs and 35 psi for loads above 470 and up to 740. Mine are usually at 30 psi.

Just FYI.

[ROKS ROKET]

I had my tires rotated and I inspected the strut towers, I found no rubbing at all. The car has 4,500 miles on it and I keep my tire pressure at 34psi all around. Maybe it's because I'm not driving aggressively enough around corners, or turns. My service advisor said he hasn't heard about any problem with the stock tires although it's close, but on the other hand, he has heard about the rubbing with people that put wider tires on their cars. He said if I was to go wider, I should go with a larger wheel, like an 18"-19". But he also warned about less sidewall could damage the wheel, since the car is heavier than most cars this size and to be very careful about hitting curbs, large pot holes, etc. I will keep an eye on it as my car gets more miles, but the best thing to do IMO, is to keep the tire pressure right and don't drive too aggressive around corners.

ROK

[Chevelleguy]

Not sure if we will ever know the axact reason. But it does appear the only ones experiencing the contact are the guys bringing the vehicles to the max handling capabilities. If this assumption is incorrect, then please mention it on the board so we can expand our info. I am not saying, by any means, the contact is OK, becasue I do not. Juse trying to get more info to be informed, becasue I will push this as far as I can. Have gotten into trouble with GM many times for less issues than this. But that is why I am what I am.
thanks
dms
mike

First, Thanks for your input DMS.

I had this problem (still do) with only 200 babied miles on my car. No aggressive driving whatsoever. My tire pressure is/was 35PSI.

With that being said, I don't like the idea of spacers - that's a band aid approach. :judge:

Someone else mentioned replacing the hub with a new design that would allow for more space - that sounds like the "right" way to go.

As far as "aggressive" driving, we should be able to do this! That is why some of us (not me by the way) bought the GTO. :thumbs:

[PMajon]

I checked my tire pressue before bringing the car in, and they were 35 PSI all around. I don't even corner hard with my GTO. Straight lines, however, is another story.

[why2kmax]

about all the agressive driving Ive done is hitting exit ramps a bit spiritedly on occaison. 99% of my driving is in a staight line on the highway, 35psi and the paint is gone from my struts. Like I said the dealer did a UI bolt fix and prob an alignment. The car drives, steers and handles MUCH better than before and the inside of my tires (tread NOT sidewalls) were wearing more than the outsides.

Ill pull the wheels today to see if I can tell where the bolts were installed and take pics of the rub. Then Im going to paint the struts where the paint wore off and see if it happens again.

Letcha know

[why2kmax]

Ok I pulled the front wheels and photo'd the rubs on my struts,

here is the left rub
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/why2kmax/GT O/leftstrutrub.jpg[/IMG]

and here is the right rub
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/why2kmax/GT O/rightstrutrub.jpg

I found the nuts and bolts that were replaced.
Here are 2 pics of them
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/why2kmax/GT O/Newbolts1.jpg
and another
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/why2kmax/GT O/newbolts.jpg

The work order says that two other nuts were orderd but I didnt find them, not sure where they are.

It looks to me like they removed the old strut bolts, MAYBE Elongated the holes (or not I dont know and cant tell) and then turned that grey/silver adjustment screw in to
add positive camber and move the wheel away from the strut. Maybe the hubs/struts are preassembled with specs for the 235/45/17 tires and no one everh thought
to readjust all the GTO struts to account for the bigger tires. Could it be that simple? Ive said before that when I rotated my tires at 6000 miles the inside tread blocks were more worn than the outside so there appeared to be too much negative camber (is that riight?)
The car drives straight and true and handles and holds the road a lot better than it did. If nothing else the alignment correction helped.

With the wheel in the air there in no touching, and I prob have maybe
1/4 of an inch clearance. Hard to see back there or measure. Dont know if it changes when the car is down.

I did notice that my front wheels were nearly frozen to the rusted hubs, much like the rears were last time I rotated the tires. This is the only car that has ever happend on. PITA.

Anyway I painted the rubs and Ill remove the wheels again next week to see if they have rubbed at all again.

Crossposted to the "tire rub tsb" thread
Jeff

[dmonty]

It may simply be an alignment issue...

My 04 is exactly like yours. VERY close. No rubbing yet...

Wayne

This cannot be an alignment thing. ALL FOUR of my stock tires were ruined by this!!! Much of the worn area doesn't even touch the road! My rotation at 7,000 miles didnt show anything. I rotated again around 14,000 and nothing was real obvious but at 18,000 I brought he in for a slow leak in the drivers rear. Once the tire was off the tech showed me that the inside edge was worn down to the cords! The other 3 tires all showed the same pattern of wear to various degrees.

Unfortunately I have higher miles on my goat which means I got to find this out the hard way. I highly suggest that everyone keep this thread in mind the next time you get your tires rotated.

I say GM should reimburse me for my new tires and alignment!!!

_DM

[hondatech]

From the looks of it most of the people posting about tires rubbing on struts have an 04.Anyone with an 05 notice any rubbing?Maybe they changed the camber specs for 05?I know most of the 05's proably don't have alot of miles yet.Anyone with an 05 like to go check their car.

[04IBM GTO]

This cannot be an alignment thing. ALL FOUR of my stock tires were ruined by this!!! Much of the worn area doesn't even touch the road! My rotation at 7,000 miles didnt show anything. I rotated again around 14,000 and nothing was real obvious but at 18,000 I brought he in for a slow leak in the drivers rear. Once the tire was off the tech showed me that the inside edge was worn down to the cords! The other 3 tires all showed the same pattern of wear to various degrees.

Unfortunately I have higher miles on my goat which means I got to find this out the hard way. I highly suggest that everyone keep this thread in mind the next time you get your tires rotated.

I say GM should reimburse me for my new tires and alignment!!!

_DM
did you save the tires, I would have rolled them into the showroom and asked for the manager.

[dmonty]

did you save the tires, I would have rolled them into the showroom and asked for the manager.

I saved the least worn one for use as a full size spare but did stop by the dealer to bitch about it. Like I said, my high miles did not warrant saving until this thread showed up. I was friggin mad tho!!! I could have used that money for headers!!

_DM

[04IBM GTO]

My continenal "extreme contact" tires 245/45/17 didn't rub, but the stock tires do,the continental tires have a stiffer sidewall maby thats why I don't know. Now I have the stock on for summer I painted struts to keep an eye on this. The way this car eats tires I think my tread will go way before the sidewall, but still something that needs to be adressed before someone's tire blows out unexpectedly.

[jak112460@aol.com]

If the stock tires rub and are worn prematurely, then that is a manufacturer defect and the dealer will replace. The tires have a warranty and the car has a warranty. There is also a thing called arbitration. I went through arbitration several years ago and won. There is no way that the manufacturer can claim that it is normal for the tires to contact the struts. The manufacturer is liable if their product does not perform safely. This tire contacting the struts is a safety issue. There cannot be an argument about that. The side walls of a radial tire are the weakest point. It's just a matter of time before someone has a blowout and is severely injured. There is no way that an independent arbitrator is going to rule that a tire making contact with the strut is normal and therefore safe.

[Maestro]

Well I just did an inspection. No rubbing or unusual tire damage/wear here. The clearance is incredibly tight though. Its actually amazing it isn't rubbing.

True of mine as well.

[BlueVaGTO]

True of mine as well.

Ditto. I'll bet that if it's knocked out of line (too much negative camber), it rubs....

Not a good design. I'll put 235s on the front when I replace these...

Wayne

[dms]

This cannot be an alignment thing. ALL FOUR of my stock tires were ruined by this!!! Much of the worn area doesn't even touch the road! My rotation at 7,000 miles didnt show anything. I rotated again around 14,000 and nothing was real obvious but at 18,000 I brought he in for a slow leak in the drivers rear. Once the tire was off the tech showed me that the inside edge was worn down to the cords! The other 3 tires all showed the same pattern of wear to various degrees.

Unfortunately I have higher miles on my goat which means I got to find this out the hard way. I highly suggest that everyone keep this thread in mind the next time you get your tires rotated.

I say GM should reimburse me for my new tires and alignment!!!

_DM


By saying "inside edge" are you talking about on the treat of the inside sidewall? If the tread is OK and the inside sidewalls are bad, go to you dealer and demand, with finesse, help. Explain this thread, give him my case number and they can see what GM wants. If it is the tread, you are SOL and this is not rubing, it is an alignment concern. Would be a recent align concern if it only happend since your last alignment. Post me some pictures so I can understand better and we can continue the discusion.

mike
dms

[dms]

If the stock tires rub and are worn prematurely, then that is a manufacturer defect and the dealer will replace. The tires have a warranty and the car has a warranty. There is also a thing called arbitration. I went through arbitration several years ago and won. There is no way that the manufacturer can claim that it is normal for the tires to contact the struts. The manufacturer is liable if their product does not perform safely. This tire contacting the struts is a safety issue. There cannot be an argument about that. The side walls of a radial tire are the weakest point. It's just a matter of time before someone has a blowout and is severely injured. There is no way that an independent arbitrator is going to rule that a tire making contact with the strut is normal and therefore safe.

Speaking as a knowledgeable service manager, the tires should not rub on the tower, no matter how fast you shoot the corners. That is why nin of you should be placid about this. The first thing to do is to go you your dealer, explain this post, and the tac case I refered to, and get you alignment checked/adjusted. Thisn if you still have rubbing, tell us all. and have your service manager contact GM, post the info on this post. The service manager should ten contact TAC and resgister athe concern, and contact their GM servic e rep, and continue the porcess. Thrid aprty arbitreation should be the last thing you should try. The aftermarket wheels traditionally do not rub, because they havew the offets adjusted for more inside clearance.

Keep us posted

Mike
dms

[miscreant]

Are all of you guys filing claims? There's only 2 on NHTSA so far. File those claims people! ;)

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showpost.php?p=320379&postcount=2

.
.

[PMajon]

Ladies and gentlemen, I bring you photos of my tires. The tire on the left in these photos is of one of my rear tires. The tire on the right is one of the front tires. The front left and right tire are worn the exact same way. Check it out.



http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=11687&stc=1

http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=11688&stc=1

http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=11689&stc=1

[dms]

Ladies and gentlemen, I bring you photos of my tires. The tire on the left in these photos is of one of my rear tires. The tire on the right is one of the front tires. The front left and right tire are worn the exact same way. Check it out.



http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=11687&stc=1

http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=11688&stc=1

http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=11689&stc=1


There is no doubt something is going on with your alignment. But this is absolutley not the tire rub issue that is being discussed with this thread. Get your alignment, steering and suspension checked ASAP

dms

[PMajon]

I did. They performed an alignment and then actually "adjusted" the struts, whatever that means. I have a new set of tires on so we'll see how well they hold up.

[04IBM GTO]

I agree with DMS this is alignment related, the strut rub is on the sidewall just below the Tire treads. But hopefully the alignment will fix your problem.

[dms]

I did. They performed an alignment and then actually "adjusted" the struts, whatever that means. I have a new set of tires on so we'll see how well they hold up.


Did they happen to give you the printout of the before and after alignment specs. I am curious what they were

thanks
dms

[miscreant]

Ladies and gentlemen, I bring you photos of my tires. The tire on the left in these photos is of one of my rear tires. The tire on the right is one of the front tires. The front left and right tire are worn the exact same way. Check it out.

Those tires were cambered in wayyyy too much. I can see on the side of the tire where it was rubbing the strut, but the main cause was obviously your camber.

[ROKS ROKET]

Maybe with all the added dirt on the wheels, they became out whack. Wow man, you really need to clean your wheels. JMO, but they are also part of the car. It's just a pet peeve of of mine, no offence meant, sorry.

ROK

[dms]

I Have Found Several More Gtos With The Rub Marks. Tire Pressures However Were Not At 35psi As They Should Have. I Communicted To Gm Tac. At This Point, Gm Is Only Recommending Increasing Cambers And Stay Within Limits, And Does Not Want To Go Any Further With This Complaint.

Thanks
Mike
Dms

[gto_in_nc]

There is no doubt something is going on with your alignment. But this is absolutley not the tire rub issue that is being discussed with this thread. Get your alignment, steering and suspension checked ASAP

dms

After several rotations (OEM tires now very nearly worn out), I realized that I had a heavily worn stripe on the inside edge of each. I had the dealer do an alignment. The camber on one front wheel was slightly more negative than would be within spec.

Service manager became very concerned when I pointed out that the stripe on each tire as the result of one corner being out meant that his technicians had rotated each good tire into that spot either without noticing or without calling attention to an obvious alignment issue. I noted that I was having my service work done in his shop because I thought my car would receive attention there and I wondered aloud what else they might be not noticing or not reporting.

I have no strut rub, though! :)

[gto_in_nc]

...Does Not Want To Go Any Further With This Complaint....


What does that mean?

[Gateway]

What does that mean?

It means... No matter what happens, GM wants you to deal with it.

Unless 5,000+ GTO owners file with the BBB within the next couple months, which isn't going to happen.

I'm not going to worry about it.

I brought my car into the dealer a couple days ago to fix the "rattle" issue with the shifter. And the steering wheel shake. They ordered me a new tire, i am going in Monday to have it replaced.

The bottom line here is, if the issue persists, keep going back to the dealer. The documentation will be there. Have them keep replacing the tires. I mean, after all, it is under warranty. And if it keeps happening, something will be done.

[kick_*ss]

WOW, just happened to see this post through the main page. I lost a back wheel already which had rubbing like this and the dealer blamed my wifes driving, she hit s curb and/or factory defect of the TIRE. I was kinda leary why they were so nice and said, oh we just decided to send this tire back to BFG as defective and not charge you.

Going to go out when she gets back from running out to get dinner and check the tires.

[dms]

unless there is somethng more significant, GM's fix is to adjust the cambers to the positive end of normal. I .E. 1/4 degree camber. If this fixes it and the hanlding is acceptable, then all is great. Keep in mind the ones I have seen this week had at least 5 Psi too low in air pressure. Tire pressure needs to be at 35PSI at the coldest time of day with cold tires

I have yet to see a tire with "severe" problem of rubbing; meaning more than a lsight polishing of the sidewall; Maybe some light contact, with nothing but some slight rub. If you have more than that, then pictures are in order and I will champion he cause. If not, then align the vehicle and keep your tire pressures to 35 PSI cold. Popele asre saying the tireshave been damaged. But the one member who gave pictures, the damage was not caused by tire rub.

mike
dms

[miscreant]

WOW, just happened to see this post through the main page. I lost a back wheel already which had rubbing like this and the dealer blamed my wifes driving, she hit s curb and/or factory defect of the TIRE. I was kinda leary why they were so nice and said, oh we just decided to send this tire back to BFG as defective and not charge you.

Going to go out when she gets back from running out to get dinner and check the tires.

Actually this has nothing to do with the rear, so it's probably not the same thing.

[miscreant]

unless there is somethng more significant, GM's fix is to adjust the cambers to the positive end of normal. I .E. 1/4 degree camber. If this fixes it and the hanlding is acceptable, then all is great. Keep in mind the ones I have seen this week had at least 5 Psi too low in air pressure. Tire pressure needs to be at 35PSI at the coldest time of day with cold tires

I have yet to see a tire with "severe" problem of rubbing; meaning more than a lsight polishing of the sidewall; Maybe some light contact, with nothing but some slight rub. If you have more than that, then pictures are in order and I will champion he cause. If not, then align the vehicle and keep your tire pressures to 35 PSI cold. Popele asre saying the tireshave been damaged. But the one member who gave pictures, the damage was not caused by tire rub.

mike
dms

Actually, the second picture above shows rubbing on the side from the strut. Granted I'll give you that the rubbing on the top corner is from the tire cambered-in too much, which is why it was impacting the strut so bad, but there is definitely strut rub on the sidewall of the right tire, the whole tread that rolls onto the sidewall is gone.

And FYI, the GTO manual says on page 5-57 that pressure should be at 30psi at normal driving with 470lbs or less in the vehicle, and 35psi when loaded over than that. So that's another area GM needs to address?

I think GM needs to at the least at this moment issue a TSB for front end camber check. It seems that some cars have too much camber, and they are the ones having the most problems, and they need to be fixed, before someone's tire pressure goes too low or they replace their tires with another brand, and end up locking up on the strut.

[dms]

I believe the tire placard on the door opening says tire pessures should be 35PSI cold. Please correct me if I am wrong

thanks
mike

[miscreant]

I believe the tire placard on the door opening says tire pessures should be 35PSI cold. Please correct me if I am wrong

thanks
mike
The placard does say "Cargo should not excede 740lbs" and "Cold Tire pressure should be 35psi". However, it also says largely "Please see the owner's manual for more information". So lets say I'm a new owner of a GTO, I stop at the gas station to check my tire pressure on day one, look on the door, says 35, so I set it to 35. Then get home, read the manual, go outside and set it to 30psi. I no longer read the placard because I read the manual.

[dms]

The placard does say "Cargo should not excede 740lbs" and "Cold Tire pressure should be 35psi". However, it also says largely "Please see the owner's manual for more information". So lets say I'm a new owner of a GTO, I stop at the gas station to check my tire pressure on day one, look on the door, says 35, so I set it to 35. Then get home, read the manual, go outside and set it to 30psi. I no longer read the placard because I read the manual.


I can relate to the confusion, and granted, the owners manual should be corrected. But also in the owners manual it does say "subject to change...."
If they made a change in the placard, they would have to recall them. But because of the confusion and sensitivity to the tire pressure issue, I would not doubt that GM sends a recall notice with a correction on tire pressure for the owners manual after they get some heat. One good thing about GM is that they are not bashful on doing recalls. Most of them are really stupid, and a lot of them are for customer satisfaction. At some point, this will get resolved. But I would do the placard PSI of 35PSI. The load and strngth of the tire goes up quite a bit with the extra 5 PSI. Just my $.02 worth
mike
dms

[miscreant]

I can relate to the confusion, and granted, the owners manual should be corrected. But also in the owners manual it does say "subject to change...."
If they made a change in the placard, they would have to recall them. But because of the confusion and sensitivity to the tire pressure issue, I would not doubt that GM sends a recall notice with a correction on tire pressure for the owners manual after they get some heat. One good thing about GM is that they are not bashful on doing recalls. Most of them are really stupid, and a lot of them are for customer satisfaction. At some point, this will get resolved. But I would do the placard PSI of 35PSI. The load and strngth of the tire goes up quite a bit with the extra 5 PSI. Just my $.02 worth
mike
dms
I agree with the 35psi. I was simply pointing out that people running 30psi could be doing so because they read to do so :).

[FraggerCrue]

Not necessarily true. Acura had a transmission problem with the 2002 to 2004 TL Type-S that caused the auto trans to "slip" from 5th to 2nd. The two or three cases were widely publicised to the point that Acura extended the tranny warranty on ALL TL's to 100,000 miles and recalled all TL's to have the automatic trans clutch packs inspected. Later they recalled the tranny again and installed an oil-jet because people were complaining about hard shifts.

The Honda Accord had some expensive and notorious AT problems from 1998 to 2002. I would think that played a significant part in their decision to extend the warranty on the TL.

[FraggerCrue]

Thiis is what I would like to do for all of you:

If all of you who have contact will give me the miles, VIN#, and where the contact is (left/right side) I will give this info to Technical assistance with VIN's and see what they have to say.
You can email me the vins on my work email so the public will not see them. Also need to know the severity of the rub. Is it a "polish kind of thing, or is it aggressive. Also need to know if you have modified the suspension/wheels/tires

thanks
mike
You're a damn good guy, Mike.

[BumblyBeest]

I'd like see what's involved organizing a class action lawsuit against GM regarding the strut tower brace wearing away the inside of the tires on our cars. The inside of my tires are completely bald and the dealership is unwilling / unable to do anything about it. I'm getting a new set of tires installed tomorrow along with an alignment. I'm going to document as much as I can about this problem.

Does anyone have any information / experiences about organizing a class action lawsuit? I was part of one a couple years ago which resulted in a successful prosecution.

Tomorrow I'm going to get in touch with a few lawyers, a couple who are friends of mine, to see what we can do.

I recommend that you document as much as you can about this problem so that we can start building a case.

Is your car stock wheels, stock tires and stock suspension? Also, is it accident free?
If the answer to all these is yes then I would go to a different dealer and request to talk to the factory rep. Insist they find the problem and fix it. Or
Lemon law the car and make them buy it back.


Good Luck,
Gary

[jak112460@aol.com]

You don't just "lemon law" a car at the snap of your fingers. It's not even close to being easy to do. Obviously the dealer is not strong on customer relations. You report a dealer like that to GM.

[dms]

To start, if you have notg contacted your dealer and explained to them the concern, and had them contact tac, get a case and do the alignment as GM wants to do, then you will be wasting your time and would be inapropriate to do the lemon law thing.

Now if you have had them re-align, use placard tire pressure and it still rubs, then you would have a case, as long as you gave gm plenty of opportunities to resolve the problem. (3)

This is the larget group of GTO owners in the world. We have yet to see the rub cause a tire problem or premature wear. If you have one, put pictures up so all of us can see and understand

One thng about the alignment. If your cambers were at -.2 and you changed it to +.2, under the most severe driving conditions like road racing, autocrossing, etc, there will be a slight reduction in handling. I doubt most of you would even feel the difference on aggressive drives.

A lot of great info has come out on this. the tire pressure deal I think is a big deal and gm should fix it. All of you should check to see if you have the rub , evaluate honestly your driving and tire pressures, and report back. It may be possible to resolve many of these complaints with tire pressure. If you want to evaluae, it, raise the pressure, then spray some black paint on the struts and drive to see if it does. And again, if anyone can document severe tire issues, please do. and we will work together as a community to resolve/evaluate.
mike
dms

[miscreant]

Is your car stock wheels, stock tires and stock suspension? Also, is it accident free?
If the answer to all these is yes then I would go to a different dealer and request to talk to the factory rep. Insist they find the problem and fix it. Or
Lemon law the car and make them buy it back.


Good Luck,
Gary
Lemon law is not an avenue that would see success. A simple alignment fix takes care of the problem for the arbitration committee.

[-=RampageRed2K5=-]

The position of that rub indicates it's rubbing with the tires straight, or basically straight.
Just wondering about the pic there,I see that you have new braided brake line and mount. Looks like grinding under it? Not that that has any thing to do with where tower is located but if it doesnt look 100% Factory under there,they will just through your case out. any alterations too stock set up voids all warrantys.S :slap: o lets see more pics with stock only set ups. Not that I am against you claim but we need many complaints of the same Item and true factory set up pics. I hope GM wakes up before people get killed and Big law suits hit there door. :mad:

[dms]

Miscreant and myself have been having a good interchange on tire pressures. The tire placard says to run 35PSI and not to exceed 740 lbs max load. To put that into perspective, that equals 4 poeple at 185 lbs each. That means if I get my closest 4 buddies in the car, I will be overloading it. Another reason to leave them at 35PSI cold all the time.

Today was the first time I had some time to look at the owners manual. It does say 30PSI up to 470lbs load (2 guys with their golf clubs at 200 lb each and their clubs at 35lb each.

The tire itself has a max cold pressure of 44PSI. If you have 4 poeple in the car with the trunk loaded with as much stuff as you can jam into it, you may be exceeding the max load the car was designed for. If so, you may want to raise the tire pressures to 40-44PSI cold during these times. Just something ot think about.

What is also interesting, since most of you probably use your owners manual as a door stop, is that they recommend not driving over 100mph, but if so, the OEM 17" tires do not require any addiitional air pressure.

However, with the 235/40ZR18, for high speed conditions, that willl be coming with the 18" OEM wheels, with up to 470 lbs of occupant and cargo weight, they recommend tire pressures of 36/36 psi cold, and with up to 740 lbs of 39psi front and 44psi rear.

Also lets review the info that is on the 2 OEM tires in terms of load ratings:
the 245/45R17 has a load rating of 95, which os 1521 lbs at 44psi. The 234/40R18 has a load rating of 91, which is only 1356 pounds at 44PSI. That is 165 pounds less which is a lot.

GM says to rotate tires every "5000 to 8000 miles " the OEM 17" are non directional and should be cross rotated when goint to the rear, and moved forward only when going to the fronts. The OEM 18" wheels are directional and you just move them front to rear on the same side.

Many of you are in snowy areas with salt used on the road. This creates probelms for the wheel and brakes. To start, it is critical to use a star pattern on lug nut tightening and do it in 3 stages, with a final torque of 100lbft. But what is equally important is to make sure all wheel contact area to the hub be 100% free of corrosion. If you do not follow both of these guidelines, brake pulsation may occur 3-4K after rotation.

Could not find it in the manual, but I do not believe the 18" OEM tires are M&S rated. Keep this in mind.

thanks
mike
dms

[why2kmax]

UPDATE to the info I posted in post #81 here after my dealer fixed my tire rub.

After 700+ miles of driving, highway, city, twisties etc, I pulled the front wheels to check to see if the tires were still rubbing and THEY DIDNT. NO RUBBING WHATSOEVER. Not saying that what fixed my car will fix yours but you can figure if you have the same type of rubmarks as I did, the camber adjustment or whatever my dealer did (Im still trying to talk to the mech and/or service writer that worked with me/my car but they were out when I called) will hopefully fix yours.

[dms]

UPDATE to the info I posted in post #81 here after my dealer fixed my tire rub.

After 700+ miles of driving, highway, city, twisties etc, I pulled the front wheels to check to see if the tires were still rubbing and THEY DIDNT. NO RUBBING WHATSOEVER. Not saying that what fixed my car will fix yours but you can figure if you have the same type of rubmarks as I did, the camber adjustment or whatever my dealer did (Im still trying to talk to the mech and/or service writer that worked with me/my car but they were out when I called) will hopefully fix yours.


THAT IS GREAT NEWS!!!. the dealership is suppose to give you paperwork to tell you what they did. Make sure you get it and report back to all of us.
dms

[MOPAR Refugee]

OK, adjusting to more positive camber is the obvious (and cheapest) fix and not surprising that GM advocates it. The problem from a GTO enthusiast's view is the "fix" is counter to performance, and this is a performance car... with a performance car marketing emphasis and price, right?

From my perspective, adding a rear sway bar and dialing in -1.5 degrees of front camber is an immediate tuning step..

So given this design tolerance issue, I advocate going to 40mm offset aftermarket front wheels and pushing for a full camber/caster strut plate... (the plate from Gravana is plus caster only, best I can tell).

GM is not going to consider any enthusiast performance issues... just protect itself from consumer ignorance. If you care about performance, pay attention and respond based on your independent personal interest...

[tponeill]

A little off the track but tire pressure is supposed to be done on a cold tire i.e. not driven.
1.)Rule of thumb if you drive to an air pump is add 3-4 psi to compensate and recheck when cold. If you intend to run at 35psi, checking when it is warm should indicate a higher number 38 or 39.) Increase air pressure for max speed you will drive!

I have enclosed a link to BFG KDWS specs indicating those increase recomendations.

I have added 4.5 psi for a max speed of 136mh with no problems at all in wear or handling.

What I don't know is if those increases in the BFG recomendations are over the Veh. MFR recomendations or the max pressure (44psi) the table above it is based on.

BFG Specs http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/assets/pdf/gforce_t a_kdws.pdf

The Firestone issue years ago was partly the fault of the veh. mfr recomendations being lowest at 28psi far below Firestones max load spec.

Just my 2cents on safety and a 30 psi warm tire would actually be 26 or 27 psi cold and out of both MFR's recomendations causing additional rub.

[jak112460@aol.com]

The tire pressure excuse is not a good argument. First off if you have a slow leak in your tire and don't know it you could be on a long drive and end up with a blowout because the tire contacts the strut. Second, ALL tire manufacturers have a variance which means the tires could be bigger or smaller by a certain amount of millimeters and still be considered the correct size. There should have been more space designed into the suspension in the first place. Correct pressure is important but the factory knows that most people don't check pressure on a regular basis and thus bears responsibilty when designing their products. That argument holds up in court.

[spd98]

There should have been more space designed into the suspension in the first place. Correct pressure is important but the factory knows that most people don't check pressure on a regular basis and thus bears responsibilty when designing their products. That argument holds up in court.

Gm's camber spec change WILL hold up in court.

[jak112460@aol.com]

WRONG!! The reason it won't is because that change will change as the car is driven and it is unreasonable to expect that the customer constantly take their cars in for alignments. In fact all GM is doing is changing the camber to the outermost acceptable setting which means that the setting it is at now is still within acceptable limits. Their new setting could actually cause the tire to wear faster than they would have before. I really think that if this problem was on a much higher production car, we would have seen a bigger response. It really is going to take a major accident, that is attributed to the strut contacting the tire, for GM to get serious.

[dms]

WRONG!! The reason it won't is because that change will change as the car is driven and it is unreasonable to expect that the customer constantly take their cars in for alignments. In fact all GM is doing is changing the camber to the outermost acceptable setting which means that the setting it is at now is still within acceptable limits. Their new setting could actually cause the tire to wear faster than they would have before. I really think that if this problem was on a much higher production car, we would have seen a bigger response. It really is going to take a major accident, that is attributed to the strut contacting the tire, for GM to get serious.


I totally disagree with you!!. the alignment angles on the positive side will not, under no circumstances, create a tire wear problem. In fact, with the pictures I have seen and the contacts I have personally seen, the only contact with the tires is a slight polishing only, which should not be there. So far, adjusting the alignment to thepositive side of specs seems to work.

I will aggree with you that the problem I feel is much more common than anyone has seen. I have seen a number of GTO's with the rub and no marks at all on the tires.

The only negative issue I can see on adjusting the cambers to the positive end is if you are taking it on the track or autrocrossing. There will be a slight reduction in handling. But if you are doing this, chances are you are not going to be using the OEM tires and wheels only. Plus this type of driving is not supported by GM.

As I have mentioned before, if there is physical damage to the tire that requires replacement, then lets see it. So far no one has come forward.

mike
dms

[why2kmax]

THAT IS GREAT NEWS!!!. the dealership is suppose to give you paperwork to tell you what they did. Make sure you get it and report back to all of us.
dms

He P/N for the bolts they ordered on my paperwork are

4 11090821 bolt 6.009
4 92138205 nut 6.164
((assuming those are the lower strut bolts))

2 11084241 nut 6.172
(havent found where these were installed.)

No mention of what they did other than correct wheel rub. Ill let you know when I get in touch with the service guys if there is any other info.

I think I said in post #81, the insides of my tires were wearing funny BEFORE the fix was done. After getting the car back it steers and handles BETTER than it did. It actually seems more responsive so maybe I had other alignment issues as well. YMMV but for my car it worked out for the better.

Im keeping an eye on the wear spots. I drive 500+ miles a week and I will be pulling both fronts every weak checking for contact. IF I see it go down the tubes again, Ill yell.

Jeff

[jak112460@aol.com]

I totally disagree with you!!. the alignment angles on the positive side will not, under no circumstances, create a tire wear problem. In fact, with the pictures I have seen and the contacts I have personally seen, the only contact with the tires is a slight polishing only, which should not be there. So far, adjusting the alignment to thepositive side of specs seems to work.

I will aggree with you that the problem I feel is much more common than anyone has seen. I have seen a number of GTO's with the rub and no marks at all on the tires.

The only negative issue I can see on adjusting the cambers to the positive end is if you are taking it on the track or autrocrossing. There will be a slight reduction in handling. But if you are doing this, chances are you are not going to be using the OEM tires and wheels only. Plus this type of driving is not supported by GM.

As I have mentioned before, if there is physical damage to the tire that requires replacement, then lets see it. So far no one has come forward.

mike
dms

There is a certain leeway given on adjusments and GM is only going to one end of that spectrum. They need to send out some sort of adendum to dealers to change the acceptable plus or minus adjustment points.

[PMajon]

I was contacted by the NHTSA to provide more information. They are investigating. I plan to send them this photo of the strut rubbing issue.

http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=12240&stc=1

[ROKS ROKET]

I checked mine again today, granted the clearance is close, but mine never rubbed. And that pic your sending in isn't where the rubbing would be if it was caused by the strut, unless your tire is too tall, then it would rub the top of the strut. It looks more like your front end was out of alignment. I may be wrong, but the rubbing would be on the side of the tire, where there is no tread (sidewall). While I commend your efforts in pursuing this "problem", I just don't think there's enough evidence to support your claims. I think there are too many variables involved to get a recall or a TSB, but good luck in your efforts.

ROK

[Xavier311]

After reading the MANY MANY posts on this issue... I finally turned my radio down while driving.. and heard what I never wanted to hear.

When simply turning into a parking spot (including backing out of it), I am hearing a rubbing sound. That's not cool.... spending 32k on a vehicle and having an issue like that really burns me.

I'll be taking my wheels off when the weather breaks around here, and if I see any sign of the rubbing, there will be hell to pay.

[BlueVaGTO]

Free advice... Check your tire pressure cold, before you do anything else...

35psi minimum...

(Free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it...)

Wayne

[Xavier311]

mine are at 35psi...

[miscreant]

I was contacted by the NHTSA to provide more information. They are investigating. I plan to send them this photo of the strut rubbing issue.

http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=12240&stc=1
The wear on the top corner of the tire is NOT strut rub, it's treadwear from too much negative camber which was causing the SIDE of your tire, the sidewall, to impact the strut. Those marks on your sidewall are from the strut. The strut impacts the sidewall alittle over 1" down from where the tread ends. Your tire has a place where it says "Mount this side in" which is exactly where it rubs. I've seen a couple tires that had that worn off! :)

[1meangto]

Most are at 53 the shipping pressure that never got deflated!

[BlueVaGTO]

mine are at 35psi...

Cool...

Good luck. I hope you don't have the problem....or, if you do, it's a simple alignment issue.

So far, I don't think we have seen any pics that were manufacturer defects, just bad aligments...

Wayne

[dms]

The tire rub, even though the tires should not ever rub, is not severe. With this kind of tire rub, I do not know if I would even change anything personally. I do like having cambers at the -.25 range. These tires hav a whole lot more than -.25 camber in the picture.

Again, the tires shuld not rub. But as many of us have equested, we are still looking for a tire that has significant damage due to contact. To be honest, I do not think we are going to see it.

As far as turning the wheel and hearing a rub, I dobt it is rub from the concern we have all be envestigating. The strut contact we have been talking about is primarliy a function of hard cornering, or over aggressive negative camber or a combo of both.

dms

[BlueVaGTO]

SNIP...Again, the tires shuld not rub. But as many of us have equested, we are still looking for a tire that has significant damage due to contact. To be honest, I do not think we are going to see it. SNIP...

dms

This whole thing may be a red herring... There may be some mild rubbing at the limits on some cars, but so far the pics have all been of just bad allignments...

Heck, I had to replace 2 tires on the 04 Honda, due to impact breaks.... They were 6 months old.... It sucked, but it wasn't Honda's fault...

I've babied the hell out of mine, but somewhere I must have pulled up on a parking lot concrete stop....the front facia has scratches on the bottom. It sucks, but it isn't GM's fault....

Wayne

[dms]

This whole thing may be a red herring... There may be some mild rubbing at the limits on some cars, but so far the pics have all been of just bad allignments...

Heck, I had to replace 2 tires on the 04 Honda, due to impact breaks.... They were 6 months old.... It sucked, but it wasn't Honda's fault...

I've babied the hell out of mine, but somewhere I must have pulled up on a parking lot concrete stop....the front facia has scratches on the bottom. It sucks, but it isn't GM's fault....

Wayne


Wayne,
You did a great job in your explanation

mike
dms

[miscreant]

This whole thing may be a red herring... There may be some mild rubbing at the limits on some cars, but so far the pics have all been of just bad allignments...

Heck, I had to replace 2 tires on the 04 Honda, due to impact breaks.... They were 6 months old.... It sucked, but it wasn't Honda's fault...

I've babied the hell out of mine, but somewhere I must have pulled up on a parking lot concrete stop....the front facia has scratches on the bottom. It sucks, but it isn't GM's fault....

Wayne
Well, I have to disagree. It's a manufacturer's defect in alignment then, because these cars are coming off the boat with "bad alignment". I guess noone seems to be reading my posts - the MAJOR problems are happening when people REPLACE the stock tires, either when worn or for preference, with other tires that are just a little bit bigger (but still 245/45R17). The NHTSA guy i talked to that I posted about in the other thread said he had lots of stuff already submitted to him of sidewalls being torn up from switching tires.

Whether it's an aligment issue or not, it NEEDS to be addressed by GM before some locks up on an offramp and goes into the wall.

I don't like the way this thread is going. We cannot take this out of the lap of GM. The tires SHOULD NOT rub the struts in the delivered state of the vehicle, PERIOD, end of story, EVEN regardless of tre pressures. Now GM needs to step up and do something, recall for alignment check and inform the customer. It's THEIR responsibility, period.

In my opinion, there should be AMPLE space to be able to mount any 245/45 tire without worry. This shouldn't be an issue.

The Monaro was designed for 235/45 tires, comes equiped with 235/45 tires...We get 245/45 tires but we get a serious lack of clearance and if our alignment is off, BUT STILL IN RANGE, we rub. THAT is a problem, end of story, period, and needs to be fixed.

End of rant. I encourage those with true strut rub to not back down from putting this in GM's lap. Alignment or no alignment, if it causes a potential safety risk when this car get's even a little out of alignment (and is even still in range), then it needs to be addressed.

[ROKS ROKET]

If your going to send that picture of those tires in as evidence of strut rub, I don't think it's going to help your cause. Number one, the pic shows a misaligned tire, two, the side wall rub isn't as severe to cause concern, as it looks like abuse from not checking the alignment and or tire pressure or driving habits. Three, from the looks of your wheels, it looks like you've been doing some autocross type driving, from all the dirt and grime that's built up in the inside wheel hub. Again, I think this is a isolated problem, when you replace your tire to another size or even the same size it's your responsibility to make sure the alignment is within specs and your air presure is where it's suppose to be. And like I said before, it looks as if you were abusing your car/tires, in one way or another. (I'm NOT saying that you were, I'm saying it LOOKS that way)

ROK

[IBM/M6]

If your going to send that picture of those tires in as evidence of strut rub, I don't think it's going to help your cause. Number one, the pic shows a misaligned tire, two, the side wall rub isn't as severe to cause concern, as it looks like abuse from not checking the alignment and or tire pressure or driving habits. Three, from the looks of your wheels, it looks like you've been doing some autocross type driving, from all the dirt and grime that's built up in the inside wheel hub. Again, I think this is a isolated problem, when you replace your tire to another size or even the same size it's your responsibility to make sure the alignment is within specs and your air presure is where it's suppose to be. And like I said before, it looks as if you were abusing your car/tires, in one way or another. (I'm NOT saying that you were, I'm saying it LOOKS that way)

ROK
I think the dealer has done all of his alignment / rotations due to the problem at hand . They should have noticed the alignment problem due to obvious tire wear on inside corner . The alignment may be the cause of all his issues . The dealer that has done this work should take care of it . It could be an easy fix for them and resolve the problem all together . Cost of tire replacement /alignment versus car replacement etc... and all the agravation involved . I would just make them fix it .

[jak112460@aol.com]

If your going to send that picture of those tires in as evidence of strut rub, I don't think it's going to help your cause. Number one, the pic shows a misaligned tire, two, the side wall rub isn't as severe to cause concern, as it looks like abuse from not checking the alignment and or tire pressure or driving habits. Three, from the looks of your wheels, it looks like you've been doing some autocross type driving, from all the dirt and grime that's built up in the inside wheel hub. Again, I think this is a isolated problem, when you replace your tire to another size or even the same size it's your responsibility to make sure the alignment is within specs and your air presure is where it's suppose to be. And like I said before, it looks as if you were abusing your car/tires, in one way or another. (I'm NOT saying that you were, I'm saying it LOOKS that way)

ROK
What if the alignment is within specs? There is an accptable range and if the car falls to the lower side it rubs and the high side it doesn't. GM needs to at least change its specs and notify its customers. The acceptable range is just that. Acceptable. that means as of now GM cannot say it's an aligment issue and fault belongs to the customer. There should not be as close of a fit anyway. I consider the front suspension design very poor.

[BlueVaGTO]

What if the alignment is within specs? There is an accptable range and if the car falls to the lower side it rubs and the high side it doesn't. GM needs to at least change its specs and notify its customers. The acceptable range is just that. Acceptable. that means as of now GM cannot say it's an aligment issue and fault belongs to the customer. There should not be as close of a fit anyway. I consider the front suspension design very poor.

The pics of the tires we've seen posted are of misalligned front ends. They hit a bad pot hole or something...

Most of the younger people (younger than me, I'm 46) won't believe this, but front ends are easy to allign. Before the days of laser levels, we used to allign front ends with a carpenter's bubble level, measuring tape, and string. I don't know if it's a fact, but I've read that some teams still make allignment adjustments at the track with tape and string.... I've done it myself, back in the dark ages before Pong and Nintendo.

Those tires are easy to read... Show this pic to any older allignment guy, and he'll tell you exactly what's wrong with it. I don't work as a mechanic any more....but this one is simple It's too much negative camber, and the tow may have been out. (Can't see the other tire....) If I could feel the blocks of the bad tire and see the other tire, I could tell you about the tow for certain.

This is pothole damage....or something similar. I suppose it's possible that it came from factory wrong... However, you'd think the tires were rotated; if so it's not a factory problem at all...because all of the tires on that corner would be worn that way.

It sucks, but it's not a design flaw.

Wayne

[miscreant]

Nobody freaking listens to me....

Struts are rubbing off the boat people, OFF the BOAT!

Just because some people here are confusing the issue and posting pics of extreme cases, GO freaking do a search and read about how many, MANY people have posted about this. Some right after delivery, some not. Several people who even checked the aligment were WITHIN spec on alignment and rubbing. These are people with no irregular wear on their tires.

Geeze o' petes, how can you freaking ignore these posts?

Let me stress again WITHIN SPEC, many GTO's are rubbing.

This is NOT isolated.
This is NOT some pothole damage
This is NOT acceptable.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2000 2&highlight=tires+rubbing

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1378 1&highlight=tires+rubbing

--

[ROKS ROKET]

I'm not convinced, what you showed in those threads are Isolated Incidents. After they got the front end realigned everything was O.K. Two or three cars is NOT going to cause GM to recall 18,000 plus GTO's. On the other hand, if this "problem" as you put it, causes an accident, them maybe GM would look into it. I agree, there isn't a lot of room between the strut and the tire and GM should have designed it a little better, but as it stands there isn't enough evidence at this point in time to cause concern.
I understand what your saying, and I can even understand your concern and frustration, but be that as it may, we need more GTO's with this "rubbing" problem to make "big brother" even blink.

ROK

[dms]

Well, I have to disagree. It's a manufacturer's defect in alignment then, because these cars are coming off the boat with "bad alignment". I guess noone seems to be reading my posts - the MAJOR problems are happening when people REPLACE the stock tires, either when worn or for preference, with other tires that are just a little bit bigger (but still 245/45R17). The NHTSA guy i talked to that I posted about in the other thread said he had lots of stuff already submitted to him of sidewalls being torn up from switching tires.

Whether it's an aligment issue or not, it NEEDS to be addressed by GM before some locks up on an offramp and goes into the wall.

I don't like the way this thread is going. We cannot take this out of the lap of GM. The tires SHOULD NOT rub the struts in the delivered state of the vehicle, PERIOD, end of story, EVEN regardless of tre pressures. Now GM needs to step up and do something, recall for alignment check and inform the customer. It's THEIR responsibility, period.

In my opinion, there should be AMPLE space to be able to mount any 245/45 tire without worry. This shouldn't be an issue.

The Monaro was designed for 235/45 tires, comes equiped with 235/45 tires...We get 245/45 tires but we get a serious lack of clearance and if our alignment is off, BUT STILL IN RANGE, we rub. THAT is a problem, end of story, period, and needs to be fixed.

End of rant. I encourage those with true strut rub to not back down from putting this in GM's lap. Alignment or no alignment, if it causes a potential safety risk when this car get's even a little out of alignment (and is even still in range), then it needs to be addressed.

So far, i have not seen or heard from anyone on the forum a rub probelm that I would consider serious. So far, the worst case I have seen was a inside sidewall polished. Should it do it? Absolutely not. So far, we have discussed what the GM position is; change the cambers to .25 degrees, the re-evaluate. Severla members have had this done and have reported toi me it resolved the problem with no noticeable handling chane.

As to warranty, I totally agree if you see the problem at the first or second tire rotation, GM should cover the alignment at no charge. The current policy with GM is alignments are covered up to 7500 miles or 1 year, whichever occurs first. This policy should be relaxed for the GTO. I also believe GM should re-evaluate their position on tire pressure.

In terms of responsibility, GTO owners need to be responsibile for inspecting their tires on a regualr basis, and do rotations in the 6000 mile range. I beleive GM says 6000-8000 mile range. But checking tire pressures and wear should be a minimum of 1 time per month. You should refer to your owners manual for this. Seeing inside tire wear as severe has the pictures shown, tells me the owners are not doing this. Also, when I see 2 out of the 4 tires badly worn, indictates a potential lack of maintenance, or very aggressive driving. If you are driving aggressively, you need to inspect, check, and do maintnenance much sooner than what GM says to do. Case in point, we sold a black GTO and put 18" wheels and tires and a Corsa system. It is a 6 speed. Came in for some warranty work with less than 7500 miles on it. The font tires are obviously scrubbed on the outside (obvious heavy cornering) and the rear tires are about 2/32 to the wear bars. This is not a fault of the tires, wheels, alignment or car. It is a result of "playing" and the customer was honest about it. I am working out a deal to get him a set of OEM wheels so he can buy a set of "play tires"

It does not appear that many of you are going back to the dealer complaining about the rub. There are not very many technical assistance cases on it. I offered to make the TAC cases for the members if they gave me their VIN number and pictures of the front tires. Not a single member did this. When I called in last week with another case, there were only a handful of cases calloed, which I did many of them. If you do have rub, and want it resolved, you need to speak with the service manager about it. If you are under 12 months delivery, he can authorize an alignment up to about 10000 miles. Over that he has to call his GM rep. With the info from tac that they can confirm, I would not think there would be much of a problem.

It does appear the alignment is resolving the concern. But if you are not rotating the tires frequently, checking the tires frequently, maintaining good tire pressures, then you will have more issues on not geting the alignment taken care of. Also if you come in with your rear tires almost all melted off, it is hard to get any GM help. It is good that the NHTSA will be checking on this. If anything, maybe GM will step up and make a special policy on extending the alignment adjustment miles and time frame. That would be good.

[dms]

Nobody freaking listens to me....

Struts are rubbing off the boat people, OFF the BOAT!

Just because some people here are confusing the issue and posting pics of extreme cases, GO freaking do a search and read about how many, MANY people have posted about this. Some right after delivery, some not. Several people who even checked the aligment were WITHIN spec on alignment and rubbing. These are people with no irregular wear on their tires.

Geeze o' petes, how can you freaking ignore these posts?

Let me stress again WITHIN SPEC, many GTO's are rubbing.

This is NOT isolated.
This is NOT some pothole damage
This is NOT acceptable.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2000 2&highlight=tires+rubbing

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1378 1&highlight=tires+rubbing

--

Miscreant, you have done an outstanding job on putting this issue up front. But when there are less than 5 inquiries to TAC on this problem, and now every time there is an inquiry they make a case, then either the dealership personell are not doing their job or the GTO owners are not complaining about it.

You said the alignment specs are OK. When you say this, have they been adjusted to what TAC would be telling you; .25 camber?? alignments cannot be done without GM approval until you get to 500 miles, and caps without approvals to 7500 miles. Lets get a bunch of members to get the alignments adjusted, post their specs, and evaluate what happens. Lets also get GTO owners to follow GM's recommendation on tire inspections, and maintenance. Lets also educate members to use the 35 PSI tire pressure cold measurement. Lets also educate members who are drag racing, autocrossing, drifting, road racing, or just very frequent aggressive driving that they need to check/maintain their vehicles much more frequently, and there are side affects to their playing. The pictures showing severe inside tire wear, not rubbing, tells me the owners are not following the guidelines of maintenance and or inspections of their tires. I have seen many vehicles with upwards of -1.0 cambers without that kind of wear. Tire pressures and driving habits have a lot to do with any wear on tires. then if you see this wear and it is not on the rear tires, even more evidence the owner has some responisibilty. But again, this is a totally different concern than the original purpose of this thread; being inside tire rub. But they are being intermixed together. Thanks for your hard work on this thread

dms

[04IBM GTO]

I think alot of these complaints were not reported because of lazy dealerships. I had my tires changed to snow tires before my first oil change and the tire shop showed me the strut paint missing on both struts. During my oil change at the dealer I reported it they found it within acceptable specs and did no repair. I had no rubbing with my snows but now my summers are back on and the rubbing is back. I only have 4200 miles total on my car, so when I go back for oil change #2 I will raise hell and get something done. Even when I go on mygmlink with my vin my 2 services are not on there, so who knows what they actually report!!

[dms]

I think alot of these complaints were not reported because of lazy dealerships. I had my tires changed to snow tires before my first oil change and the tire shop showed me the strut paint missing on both struts. During my oil change at the dealer I reported it they found it within acceptable specs and did no repair. I had no rubbing with my snows but now my summers are back on and the rubbing is back. I only have 4200 miles total on my car, so when I go back for oil change #2 I will raise hell and get something done. Even when I go on mygmlink with my vin my 2 services are not on there, so who knows what they actually report!!


The first step we do at the dealership is to go online with GM and do a search for info. Doing this on the GTO, does not bring up any info. I know, becasue I have done it myself. You have to call GM Technical Assistance, and open up a case on it to get the info from GM. I think this is wrong, but do not have any control over it. Tell this to your service manager about the alignment change and they should take care of it at no charge for you. Part of the probelm is to do a GM search for info and then call GM on a probelm, can take upwareds of 35-50 minutes. The tech is suppose to do it. But traditionally we do not get paid for doing it. GM already sghort changes us on labor and $ per hour reimbursement. The dealership may not have sold a lot of GTO's and definitely does not understand the power of this forum. So be nice, do not give the manager hell, tell him thre is info at TAC on what to do with the rub. Basically set the cambers to .25 degrees and then re-evaluate it. You will know very shoretly if you have thr rub., Spray some paint on the tower rub area after they see it and lets see what happens. Be glad you participate on this site. You probably have more product knowledge on the GTO than they do.

Any probelms, email me. The case that I opened/closed is posted on this thread so they can access it by calling very easily, but should not need it.

mike
dms

[why2kmax]

The pics that PJMajon posted, as miscreant said, are NOT strut rub, least not how MY car experienced it, although at 5000 miles (or therabout) when I rotated my tires, they WERE wearing in the same areas as that picture, although not Nearly as bad.

As said, the side of the tires would be polished from where it hits the struts, the treadblock is not affected.

I AGREE though that these things are coming off the boat with too much negative camber. I got my car December 28 and did the 100 mile a day commute, hit very few if any potholes with my front tires and did zero agressive driving with 35psi cold and still had strut rub.

Odd thing is I felt the GTO didnt handle very well since the day I bought it. OR maybe that I expected more. Mine always seemed to push over or be top heavy in tight turns, and understeer a lot more than I was used to in RWD cars. My GTP with the gmpp suspension kit cornered flatter and better.

After the alignment, the GTO DOES corner better, flatter and with less understeer. Its a blast to drive now. Why? I dont know, I prob had more than bad camber but its better. I just wanted to throw that observation out there who think their handling will be ruined by an alignment. Maybe, maybe not but here is one case where it improved.

Ive tried opening a case for my strut rub and Ive called 3 times to the girl who was handling my case # (for my other problems) and despite promises on the answering machine of a 24 hr callback, Ive gotten none in 3 calls over 4 days. So the next time Im talking to whoever wants to pick up the phone. Or Ill just PM DMS.

[dms]

The pics that PJMajon posted, as miscreant said, are NOT strut rub, least not how MY car experienced it, although at 5000 miles (or therabout) when I rotated my tires, they WERE wearing in the same areas as that picture, although not Nearly as bad.

As said, the side of the tires would be polished from where it hits the struts, the treadblock is not affected.

I AGREE though that these things are coming off the boat with too much negative camber. I got my car December 28 and did the 100 mile a day commute, hit very few if any potholes with my front tires and did zero agressive driving with 35psi cold and still had strut rub.

Odd thing is I felt the GTO didnt handle very well since the day I bought it. OR maybe that I expected more. Mine always seemed to push over or be top heavy in tight turns, and understeer a lot more than I was used to in RWD cars. My GTP with the gmpp suspension kit cornered flatter and better.

After the alignment, the GTO DOES corner better, flatter and with less understeer. Its a blast to drive now. Why? I dont know, I prob had more than bad camber but its better. I just wanted to throw that observation out there who think their handling will be ruined by an alignment. Maybe, maybe not but here is one case where it improved.

Ive tried opening a case for my strut rub and Ive called 3 times to the girl who was handling my case # (for my other problems) and despite promises on the answering machine of a 24 hr callback, Ive gotten none in 3 calls over 4 days. So the next time Im talking to whoever wants to pick up the phone. Or Ill just PM DMS.


Calling Customer realtions is not a TAC case. Only the dealership can do that.,, However, having it registered is a great idea. The one thing I will point out is if the tires are wearing on the inside even close to what was posted above, once this pattern has started, it will stay that way and wear will continue. Tire replacement should be done at warranty expense. Also it is great that doing an alignment did resolve your concerns. One thing I would like to see from everyone is the before and after specs. The dealership is required to print this info and safe it for the factory. If they do not, then they will not get paid for it. Yours is a great example of what before and after specs to note if you can get them. Thanks for the info!!
dms

[Yellow04NYGTO]

I have had my go for 6 months and allready blew out the sidewall of my rear left tire,, completely bald with thread showing (inside), and meanwhile the other rear tire is perfectly fine. The people said it may be an alignment problem, but I doubt this. any help?

[why2kmax]

For those that are interested,

Here are pics of the amount of space AFTER the alignment or whatever they did. My wear wasnt nearly as bad as the posted pics earlier. Just enough for me to notice something wasnt right. Unfortunately, I had already rotated my tires and the fronts were on the rear when I took it to get the rub fixed.

These were taken with the wheels on the ground, with them turned all the way to either side. I shoved the camera inside the front of the wheelwell until I got a pic that showed the space.


They arent great but you can see the clearance now. I wish I thought of doing this BEFORE the fix to compare but...

Drivers side

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/why2kmax/GT O/LFafter.bmp

and the passenger side

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/why2kmax/GT O/RFafter.bmp

[dms]

I have had my go for 6 months and allready blew out the sidewall of my rear left tire,, completely bald with thread showing (inside), and meanwhile the other rear tire is perfectly fine. The people said it may be an alignment problem, but I doubt this. any help?

who is "they"? Ae we to assume it its the dealer?? If They said it was an alignment problem, then did you get the alignment done, and if so, what were the specs before and after. If you only had the vehicle 6 months, the alignment and tire should have been under warranty. Also did you have the tires rotated previously and how many miles were on your GTO??

We can start with the answers to these questions.

thanks
dms

[Grown Man]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/why2kmax/GT O/RFafter.bmp

My front right tire was worn bare in the exact spot where you see the strut practically attached to the tire in this picture. I'm not going to go on a crusade trying to get this fixed. I filed my NHSTA complaint and that's all I'm gonna do. My time and energy are too valuable. I know for a fact that GM won't give us an acceptable fix (i.e. a new set of tires), because THEY'RE GM. I'm just going to eat the $1k and get a set of the 235/45 tires that should have been on the car in the first place.

I can't believe how some of the apologists in this thread are trying to spin that it is OUR fault that GM put the wrong size tires on our car. This is what I deserve for buying a GM car, and conning myself into thinking GM wasn't still GM. Believe me, I've learned my lesson but good, and no matter how good a deal it seems to be, I won't touch another GM car with a 10-foot pole ever again.

[dms]

My front right tire was worn bare in the exact spot where you see the strut practically attached to the tire in this picture. I'm not going to go on a crusade trying to get this fixed. I filed my NHSTA complaint and that's all I'm gonna do. My time and energy are too valuable. I know for a fact that GM won't give us an acceptable fix (i.e. a new set of tires), because THEY'RE GM. I'm just going to eat the $1k and get a set of the 235/45 tires that should have been on the car in the first place.

I can't believe how some of the apologists in this thread are trying to spin that it is OUR fault that GM put the wrong size tires on our car. This is what I deserve for buying a GM car, and conning myself into thinking GM wasn't still GM. Believe me, I've learned my lesson but good, and no matter how good a deal it seems to be, I won't touch another GM car with a 10-foot pole ever again.


If you give me your complete VIN, mileage, and detailed pictures of the tire, I will spend my time in filing a complaint with GM. Part of the issue on this post and with GM technical assistance is that none of us have seen a tire with significant side damage caused by strut rub. If you have it as you said, then lets use your situation and champion the cause. If you go ahead and get new tires, save the one that is bad. Also will need to know what mods you have done if any, and have you had the alignment checked/changed, etc, and what tire pressures you are running. What mileage are you rotationg your tries. Sorry about all the questions. But just trying to help. But I am flat out telling you if you have severe tire damage from strut contact, GM will pay for that tire, assuming everything is stock. But before I stick my neck out, I need to see detailed pictures of it. And if you do not know who I am, I am a Parts and Service Director of a Pontiac Buick GMD dealer in the the Bay Area.

I have not seen any "apologists" on this thread. I have reviewed some information I thought was worth while that would assist everyone. But I do not think this makes me an "apologist" If your tire is destroyed on the sidewall like you say, yours is the first one reported to the group. Seeing this tire would be very benificial to all.

mike
dms

[dms]

Ladies and gentlemen, I bring you photos of my tires. The tire on the left in these photos is of one of my rear tires. The tire on the right is one of the front tires. The front left and right tire are worn the exact same way. Check it out.



http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=11687&stc=1

http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=11688&stc=1

http://ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachment id=11689&stc=1


I have to assume you have replaced at least a coule of your tires. Have you had the alignment checked, and if so, what were the before and after numbers. It would help this link understand your wear

dms

[miscreant]

Okay, well time to open a ca of worms.
The below picture IS from strut rub. I sent this pic to a friend in Akron Ohio who I used to work with. He works for goodyear, and hooked me up with a tire engineer. The gentleman looked at the pics I sent him and noted the following:

1) If this tire was resultant of a camber problem that caused the entire side of the tread to disappear, then the camber would have been SOOOO negative that it would have never mounted to the car. He sent me this picture back (picture 1) where he rotated the picture to approximely where the tire would have to be cambered to wear JUST that area of the tire at that angle.

2) Secondary to the above, again if it were this extreme, there would NOT have been even wear across the rest of the tire. Look at the red and blue arrows - they show the exact same wear, or pretty darn close, on the tire, which would indicate that the tire contact patch was apropriate.

3) There is cupping on the worn edge of the tire (see purple arrow) which is indicative of the tire impacting a surface, most likely the strut. The tire was wearing on the strut and on bumps and such would slightly impact the strut more (through flex and what not) causing the tire to sporatically impact harder causing cupping.

4) He viewed the picture of my strut, and indicated that the wear on the tire looks exactly like the angle of the strut perch and noted that if the tire was cambered in just enough, it would impact the spring perch at that exact angle.

I agree completely with his assessment. This tire was aggressively worn by some object impacting it on the side, the rest of the tread is evenly worn.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=12629&stc=1

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=12630&stc=1

[dms]

[QUOTE=dms]So far, without seeing the align specs before and after, I really would hve a hard time believing the tire sidewall contact has caused the inner tread wear. To start, there is barely contact.; just enough to leave a witness mark on the inner sidewall. Unfortunately there are variables here tht we do not know about. I.E. tire pressure, type of drivng, and alignment angles before/after. What is interesting also is the lack of wear on the rear tires, plus negative cambers would be spread alittle more than just the 2 inches or so on the inside edge. One of the sets of wheels and tires I did to a forum memberhad a Eibach spring drop and about 1.5-2.0 negative camber and not tire rub on his OEM tires and his tires were wearing nicely

Plus, it appears, once I look into it, the majority of the GTOs now that i am looking are rubbing in the same degree as the rub in the picutre. The ones that are not are the guys who are not being aggressive. i have not seen one on a 05 yet, nor have I seen the rubbing when they are being delivered to us. But that does not mean this cannot happen. Also, many of these vehilces are being tested and evaluated before shipment in the U.S. and Aussiland, and to be honest, looking at the very close clearance, i do not think there has to be much of a hard corner to get alittle tire squirm and contact.

The slight cupping that is noted coulde indicate something loose, or the picture is alittle decieving to the point the rubber is getting so thin, it is chunking. But an interesting thread to say the least.

Well looking at the pictures again, I think the cupping part is a function of thin rubber and going into the carcass of the tire. Plus what looks like the right tire, labeled as rear tire, has more rubbing than the left front and the right tread does not look that bad. Something definately has changed. But just my opinion.

dms
mike

[Lumina ss]

A bit of information that might be relevent or might not I run a 2000 SS Commodore, same front end, with 234/45/17s and it does exactly the same thing to the front rubber, I also have a 98 Commodore and guess what so does it. inside tyre scrubbing on commodore/monaro/GTO has been a problem since the first commodore in 1978 and they still havent fixed it, the wider the tyre the bigger the problem. If I see 20000miles on a set of tyres its bloody amazing, 15000 is closer to the norm.

[ROKS ROKET]

I know I'm going to get reamed for this post, but here it goes. First of all, I'm not all that convinced that those tires came off of a 04 GTO, before you get all worked up let me explain. If you look at the pics you will see in one of them a weight on the wheel, as far as I know, those kinds of weight are not used on our wheels, our weights are inside the wheel not on the rim. Plus, the wheels are so dirty and incrusted with grime, either this person doesn't take care of his car, which I can't believe, or he's using this car for more than street driving. Which would explain why these tires are worn, and filthy. IE: abuse. Ok, lets hear it, i'm ready.......

ROK

[C'Ville GTO]

Taking the tires off to paint the calipers this weekend I found evidence of minor rubbing on the strut (passenger side more than driver side) with no indication of wear on either tire.
It is amazing how tight things are in there. You can barely slide a piece of cardboard between the struts and the tires.

[miscreant]

I know I'm going to get reamed for this post, but here it goes. First of all, I'm not all that convinced that those tires came off of a 04 GTO, before you get all worked up let me explain. If you look at the pics you will see in one of them a weight on the wheel, as far as I know, those kinds of weight are not used on our wheels, our weights are inside the wheel not on the rim. Plus, the wheels are so dirty and incrusted with grime, either this person doesn't take care of his car, which I can't believe, or he's using this car for more than street driving. Which would explain why these tires are worn, and filthy. IE: abuse. Ok, lets hear it, i'm ready.......

ROK
No, mine had wheel weights on the inside, and why2kmax's above shows a wheel weight. It's a euroflange on the outside, but it will take weights on the inside. Also, unless you really clean your wheels on the inside, they will look like that. That's no real indication of driving hard.

I again say it, I did an extensive search on the net for tire wear posts and articles, and the extensive wear JUST on the shoulder, and the angle at which it wore compared to the rather even wear across the rest of the tire solidifies for me something is/was wrong other than just a camber problem. The tire is already darn close to the strut, if it was cambered in THAT much it would have never mounted up and would have been visibly noticeable by being angled in so much.

[ROKS ROKET]

No, mine had wheel weights on the inside, and why2kmax's above shows a wheel weight. It's a euroflange on the outside, but it will take weights on the inside. Also, unless you really clean your wheels on the inside, they will look like that. That's no real indication of driving hard.

I again say it, I did an extensive search on the net for tire wear posts and articles, and the extensive wear JUST on the shoulder, and the angle at which it wore compared to the rather even wear across the rest of the tire solidifies for me something is/was wrong other than just a camber problem. The tire is already darn close to the strut, if it was cambered in THAT much it would have never mounted up and would have been visibly noticeable by being angled in so much.

Agreed, on the first part of your post about the weights, sort of. But about the wheel being that dirty, even a car wash will clean the wheel, but if you look closely it looks as if the wheel has permanent "burnt" on grime. I understand that if you don't clean the wheel with a cloth every time you wash your car it would have some and I mean some road grime on it, or brake dust, but this is excessively dirty.

Now about the second part of your post, I had posted something about the top of the stut being in such an angle as to make those marks. In fact it DOES look as if the tire was too tall and had been rubbing the whole time the tire had been on the car. It could be a bad strut instead of the front being off, has anyone thought of that possibility? The gas in the strut could of escaped from a bad seal, or from hitting a curb, or deep pot hole or something else, causing the front end to lower just enough to be supported by the tire. The springs could have been the only thing holding up the front end up. I haven't seen a post exploring this possible cause.

ROK

[PMajon]

I know I'm going to get reamed for this post, but here it goes. First of all, I'm not all that convinced that those tires came off of a 04 GTO, before you get all worked up let me explain. If you look at the pics you will see in one of them a weight on the wheel, as far as I know, those kinds of weight are not used on our wheels, our weights are inside the wheel not on the rim. Plus, the wheels are so dirty and incrusted with grime, either this person doesn't take care of his car, which I can't believe, or he's using this car for more than street driving. Which would explain why these tires are worn, and filthy. IE: abuse. Ok, lets hear it, i'm ready.......

ROK

I turned the camera's flash on which is why they are so bright. Plus my hands were filthy from removing the tires which is why there are smudges. The tires aren't more or less dirty than any other tire. I wash my car regularly, I've even had it detailed a couple of times.

[Grown Man]

If you give me your complete VIN, mileage, and detailed pictures of the tire, I will spend my time in filing a complaint with GM. Part of the issue on this post and with GM technical assistance is that none of us have seen a tire with significant side damage caused by strut rub. If you have it as you said, then lets use your situation and champion the cause. If you go ahead and get new tires, save the one that is bad. Also will need to know what mods you have done if any, and have you had the alignment checked/changed, etc, and what tire pressures you are running. What mileage are you rotationg your tries. Sorry about all the questions. But just trying to help. But I am flat out telling you if you have severe tire damage from strut contact, GM will pay for that tire, assuming everything is stock. But before I stick my neck out, I need to see detailed pictures of it. And if you do not know who I am, I am a Parts and Service Director of a Pontiac Buick GMD dealer in the the Bay Area.

I have not seen any "apologists" on this thread. I have reviewed some information I thought was worth while that would assist everyone. But I do not think this makes me an "apologist" If your tire is destroyed on the sidewall like you say, yours is the first one reported to the group. Seeing this tire would be very benificial to all.

mike
dms

My tire isn't destroyed on the sidewall, it has the bald strip at the edge of the tread exactly like all the other pics in this thread. If you look at the picture why2kmax posted, you can see the strut almost touching the TOP of the tire, not the side, in the exact position where we all have the bald strip. I'll send you the info that you requested and pictures when I can.

[dms]

My tire isn't destroyed on the sidewall, it has the bald strip at the edge of the tread exactly like all the other pics in this thread. If you look at the picture why2kmax posted, you can see the strut almost touching the TOP of the tire, not the side, in the exact position where we all have the bald strip. I'll send you the info that you requested and pictures when I can.
I APPRECIATE YOUR EFFORTS.

MIKE
DMS

[GM'er]

Okay, well time to open a ca of worms.
The below picture IS from strut rub. I sent this pic to a friend in Akron Ohio who I used to work with. He works for goodyear, and hooked me up with a tire engineer. The gentleman looked at the pics I sent him and noted the following:

1) If this tire was resultant of a camber problem that caused the entire side of the tread to disappear, then the camber would have been SOOOO negative that it would have never mounted to the car. He sent me this picture back (picture 1) where he rotated the picture to approximely where the tire would have to be cambered to wear JUST that area of the tire at that angle.

2) Secondary to the above, again if it were this extreme, there would NOT have been even wear across the rest of the tire. Look at the red and blue arrows - they show the exact same wear, or pretty darn close, on the tire, which would indicate that the tire contact patch was apropriate.

3) There is cupping on the worn edge of the tire (see purple arrow) which is indicative of the tire impacting a surface, most likely the strut. The tire was wearing on the strut and on bumps and such would slightly impact the strut more (through flex and what not) causing the tire to sporatically impact harder causing cupping.

4) He viewed the picture of my strut, and indicated that the wear on the tire looks exactly like the angle of the strut perch and noted that if the tire was cambered in just enough, it would impact the spring perch at that exact angle.

I agree completely with his assessment. This tire was aggressively worn by some object impacting it on the side, the rest of the tread is evenly worn.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=12629&stc=1

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=12630&stc=1

miscreant, I have to disagree with you on this one. If you are saying the wear that has the purple arrow pointing to it is due to it rubbing on the strut I don't believe it. All of the paint would have to be worn of the strut in at least a 2 inch wide patch to match that tire. Let me see a picture of the strut that matches up with this tire and then, and only then, will I believe it.

[dms]

We just re-aligned 2GTO's with the rubbing. Both had approx -.7degrees negative camber. Bought them to .2 positive camber, with no rub and no noticeable change in handling. So GM's info works.

thanks
mike
dms

[why2kmax]

FWIW even though my pics "appear" to show the tire almost contacting the strut on the top of the tire, it isnt. There is plenty of room there. In my second pics, I was trying to show the space between the sidewall of the tire and the strut which is where my tire was rubbing. The tops of my tires have NEVER rubbed the strut,,only the sidewall. Post #81 (I think) shows the polish marks on my struts.

[Widget]

Rotated my tires yesterday 6500 miles.....Yup, both front tires are rubbing, especially passenger side. The passenger side tire is cupping in the inner most tread block noticeably. The driver’s side is as well, just to a lesser degree.

I wish I had a digital camera. I might to borrow one. Both struts had the paint rubbed of similar to the other pictures. The passenger strut also had two other “lines” (appear to be from rubbing) lower on the strut, but not through to the paint.

I have an appointment at the dealer for tomorrow morning. The service manager seemed clueless, so thanks to this thread, I’ll gently guide him to TAC and the service # DMS provided.

I had 30 pounds of pressure all around. I added five to the front this afternoon. Basically, all my driving is done on the highway and I can honestly say I can’t remember taking any aggressive turns. . I usually just go fast in a straight line!!!! So, I don’t give much credence to taking corners hard and the like as a legitimate cause of the problem … Mine came off the boat this way.

I’ll let everyone know what happens at the dealer.

PS. As far as the cupping on the tires. I would think there pretty much ruined. Am I right?

[dms]

Rotated my tires yesterday 6500 miles.....Yup, both front tires are rubbing, especially passenger side. The passenger side tire is cupping in the inner most tread block noticeably. The driver’s side is as well, just to a lesser degree.

I wish I had a digital camera. I might to borrow one. Both struts had the paint rubbed of similar to the other pictures. The passenger strut also had two other “lines” (appear to be from rubbing) lower on the strut, but not through to the paint.

I have an appointment at the dealer for tomorrow morning. The service manager seemed clueless, so thanks to this thread, I’ll gently guide him to TAC and the service # DMS provided.

I had 30 pounds of pressure all around. I added five to the front this afternoon. Basically, all my driving is done on the highway and I can honestly say I can’t remember taking any aggressive turns. . I usually just go fast in a straight line!!!! So, I don’t give much credence to taking corners hard and the like as a legitimate cause of the problem … Mine came off the boat this way.

I’ll let everyone know what happens at the dealer.

PS. As far as the cupping on the tires. I would think there pretty much ruined. Am I right?

iF YOU HAVE CUPPING AT 6500MILES, THEN YOU MUST INSIST ON NEW FRONT TIRES. ONCE THEY CUP, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO CUP. WARRANTY WILL PAY FOR THE ALIGNMENTMENT AND TIRES AS LONG AS YOU ARE UNDER 12 MONTHS OLD.

THE SERVICE MANAGER SHOULD CALL TAC TO OPEN A CASE FOR THE 2 PROBLEMS. THEY WILL HAVE HIM CHANGE THE CAMBERS TO .2 DEGREES FROM WHAT YOU PROBABLY HAVE AS -.7 OR -.8. THE SERVICE MANAGER SHOULD HAVE NOT PROBLEM WITH TAC AND GETTING THIS INFO. THIS IS NOT RELATED TO THE CUPPING PROBLEM. THE SUSPENSION AND STEERING AND ALIGNMENT SPECIFICALLY TOW, SHOULD BE CHECKED VERY CAREFULLY.
HOPE THIS HELPS

MIKE
DMS

[04IBM GTO]

:( Well my car is at the dealer since yesterday, It went in to fix the cluster the D21NR display is missing since the dealer dimmed the MPH light. They are still trying to figure it out, I don't think they know how to program the cluster. 2nd I asked them to adjust the camber per the TAC reguarding tire/strut rub. I call them today they said they checked twice no TSB or TAC with requards this problem. They said they test drove it it seams fine, I told them to pull a tire and look at tire and strut they said they will look again. This is the first car I bought in WI so I am trying to be nice here and my salesman is on vacation, but I have bought 9 new GM cars in PA since 1990. On a side note they did give me a 2005 envoy with leather/navi as a loner. I will let you know what they find if anything.

[dms]

:( Well my car is at the dealer since yesterday, It went in to fix the cluster the D21NR display is missing since the dealer dimmed the MPH light. They are still trying to figure it out, I don't think they know how to program the cluster. 2nd I asked them to adjust the camber per the TAC reguarding tire/strut rub. I call them today they said they checked twice no TSB or TAC with requards this problem. They said they test drove it it seams fine, I told them to pull a tire and look at tire and strut they said they will look again. This is the first car I bought in WI so I am trying to be nice here and my salesman is on vacation, but I have bought 9 new GM cars in PA since 1990. On a side note they did give me a 2005 envoy with leather/navi as a loner. I will let you know what they find if anything.


THEY DID NOT CALL TAC, THEY TRIED LOOKING UP FOR A BULLETIN OR WHAT IS CALLED A PI (PRELIMINARY INFO) THIS INFO ON THE ALGNMENT STPECS IS NOT PUBLISHED YET. I HAVE CALLED IT IN TO TAC MULTIPLE TIMES WITH ABSOLUTELY NOT PROBLEMS. HAVE THE DEALERSHIP CALL TAC. THEY WILL HAVE YOU CHANGE THE CAMBERS TO .2 DEGREES OR SO, WHICH IS STILL WITHIN SPECS BUT ON THE MOST POSITIVE SIDE.

DMS
MIKE

[Capo]

Isnt 30psi a bit to low to run? Wouldnt that cause more tire flex under normal or spirited driving that could/would possibly cause the tires to make contact with the strut more so than say running 35psi in them? Just seems to me that any pressure lower than 35psi is to low for the OE setup..

When I picked my GTO from the dealership all tires were @46psi... :sneaky: lowered them to 35psi... all seems well so far.

[dms]

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THE TIRE PRESSURE CONCERN. TO START, THE OWNERS MANUAL GIVES YOU 2 OPTIONS ON PRESSURE FOR THE 17'S; 30 AND 35psi. THE TIRE PLACARD ON YOUR VEHICLE SAYS 35PSI COLD.

THE REASON FOR THE 245/45R17 TIRE INSTEAD OF 235/45R17 I BELIEVE IS AN ISSUE OF BETTER TIRE LIFE. THERE IS A HIGHER LOAD RANGE FOR THE 245 VERSUS THE 235.

BUT IF WAS MY GTO, I WOULD KEEP THE PRESSURES AT 35PSI

AS A NOTE, THE REASON YOU HAD 45 OR SO PSI IN YOUR TIRES WAS AN ISSUE OF A INCOMPLETE PDI FROM YOUR DEALER. THEY SHIP THE TIRES WITH HIGHER TIRE PRESSURES ON PURPOSE. BETTER FOR THE TIRE IF IT IS SITTING A WHILE AND NOT TAKING A ABNORMAL SHAPE. WHOEVER DID THE
PRE DELIVERY INSPECTION, DID NOT DO WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSE TO DO.

MIKE
DMS

[Widget]

Not sure if I should start another thread or not….but since I posted yesterday about discovering the front tires rubbing the struts and the front tires cupping on my car….I’ll continue….

The dealer took a look and did the following. From the ticket “found the pinch bolt from the strut knuckle and repositioned and still set the front end to specification. Adjusted camber on both sides and reset toe”. So, from I can figure, they did what DMS has suggested as well as an alignment.

Prior to service, I tried to give them the TAC #....they weren’t interested. They said they couldn’t use it anyway because it was someone else’s. So, I just mentioned I wanted them to have the info in case they had trouble diagnosing and fixing the problem. For some reason I think they thought I was talking about a TSB. I was clear on this though and the only time I mentioned TSB was to state I DIDN’T think there was one.

After working on my car, they made sure they TOLD me there wasn’t a TSB and when I looked at the ticket, printed on there was that I thought there was one. :banghead: Oh, well at least hopefully the strut-rubbing problem is fixed.

Now on to the tires, after explaining the TSB and alignment info to me, I brought up the tires cupping. The counter man told me they will straighten out now that there on the rear. I told him I didn’t think so and thought they were pretty much toast. He said come back in the future so they can check em and if they haven’t straightened out then they could go to service manager and see about getting them replaced under warranty. I thought this was fair (although I don’t expect them to straighten out…from what little I know about tires) albeit a little frustrating. I wanted to make sure my concern regarding the tires being ruined was documented, so he reopened the ticket and documented it for me. I guess the next time I need my oil changed, I’ll bring my own Mobile 1, have them do it instead of me and have them check the tires then.

Once again, information shared on this site, especially in this case by DMS, has proven invaluable, at least to me. Heck, I probably wouldn’t have even noticed the rub marks on the struts or thought to even for it.

So thanks. :hail:

[04IBM GTO]

Ok pick up my car today after 3 days to reprogram cluster and I look at work order and it states "customer states that front tires rub customer found tsb for this issue. Inspected and called TAC. Advised us to align vehicle to factory specs. Unable to do at this time." So I asked why they said there alignment tool would not fit on GTO to the rims are to wide. So I asked what they did for three days and why didn't they send it out to shop that is capable of repairing the cars they sell. He said he was sorry and to bring it back next week and his service manager who is away may be able to align or authorize an alignment at another shop. When I asked him about settting camber to the negative part of the specs he said that was not what he was told. At least I have all this stupidity on the invoice. But now I am starting to see why GM is in trouble. This is nothing against DMS, I wish my dealer was half as helpful as you guys.

[dms]

Ok pick up my car today after 3 days to reprogram cluster and I look at work order and it states "customer states that front tires rub customer found tsb for this issue. Inspected and called TAC. Advised us to align vehicle to factory specs. Unable to do at this time." So I asked why they said there alignment tool would not fit on GTO to the rims are to wide. So I asked what they did for three days and why didn't they send it out to shop that is capable of repairing the cars they sell. He said he was sorry and to bring it back next week and his service manager who is away may be able to align or authorize an alignment at another shop. When I asked him about settting camber to the negative part of the specs he said that was not what he was told. At least I have all this stupidity on the invoice. But now I am starting to see why GM is in trouble. This is nothing against DMS, I wish my dealer was half as helpful as you guys.


The cambers need to be set to the POSITIVE side of the spec not negative. And to make sure, GM has not posted a TSB or a PI yet on this concern. The service department should caal TAC and get a case number so GM can track the problem better. I wish all of you wer closer to me so I could take good care of all of you

dms

[04IBM GTO]

:gr_jest: I wish you were closer too. They have sold over 20 gto's at this dealer and can't program a cluster, do a wheel alignment, when they pulled my cluster out they tore the leather on stearing wheel(they ordered a new wheel). I guess I am driving to Chicago for service next time.

[BlueTiger]

I know I'm going to get reamed for this post, but here it goes. First of all, I'm not all that convinced that those tires came off of a 04 GTO, before you get all worked up let me explain. If you look at the pics you will see in one of them a weight on the wheel, as far as I know, those kinds of weight are not used on our wheels, our weights are inside the wheel not on the rim. Plus, the wheels are so dirty and incrusted with grime, either this person doesn't take care of his car, which I can't believe, or he's using this car for more than street driving. Which would explain why these tires are worn, and filthy. IE: abuse. Ok, lets hear it, i'm ready.......

ROK

I just has some new tires installed and the dealer put the weights on the inner lip of the rim and left the factory weight in the center of the rim.

[why2kmax]

6,000 miles since the dealer fixed my strut rub and still NO Re-rubbing.

Just FYI.

[1BadAction]

O

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=12629&stc=1

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=12630&stc=1

thats not strut rub... sorry, somebody was running the S outta that car on an autox track or on the street. suspension is set up with something called castor- the farther you turn the wheels, the more camber (relative to the ground) is in the suspension. therefore, the harder you corner, the more THE INSIDE CORNER on fronts will be worn. the angle that the strut would contact the sidewall (if it did rub) is no where near that area. im with roks rocket, the guy who owns the car those tires came off of was driving like a maniac.

[1BadAction]

might I add- depending on the sidewall stiffness, total castor, and tire width, tires can also wear on the outside through a turn. scrubbing on the outside generally happens more on trucks that have less castor than a car that is designed to haul ass around a turn... :driving:

[JohnnyZ28]

Interesting thread so far. It looks like the owner of that car beat the hell out of it. But, the stock tires are fairly shitty to begin with...

[SKPGTO4]

:gr_jest: I wish you were closer too. They have sold over 20 gto's at this dealer and can't program a cluster, do a wheel alignment, when they pulled my cluster out they tore the leather on stearing wheel(they ordered a new wheel). I guess I am driving to Chicago for service next time.
Dont go to Bill Kay in Downers Grove, they are the biggest hacks.

[silvergoat05]

The cambers need to be set to the POSITIVE side of the spec not negative. And to make sure, GM has not posted a TSB or a PI yet on this concern. The service department should caal TAC and get a case number so GM can track the problem better. I wish all of you wer closer to me so I could take good care of all of you

dms

I went to the dealer last week because it looked like the camber on the right side was negative, turns out it was -.7 . Gave them the TAC case # and they set the camber to +.2 I would have prefered '0'. But now the cross caster is -.7* and the specs call for -.6. The left side caster didn't change much, but the right side did. I don't see where caster can be adjusted by itself so I will get the A/M plates and then redo.

The rear camber seems to be high as well, does anyone know what works best for the rear? I am at -1.2* camber

They did put a disclaimer about high speed handling being reduced.

[WickedGoat]

Strut rub, bad alignment, whatever....... The cars should not be doing this. I completely agree with Miscreant regarding this. I also agree with DMS regarding abusing the car. If you wish to fry the rear tires at will or Auto X, drift or do whatever to tear up the fronts, so be it. But don't expect to have GM replace the tires. However, being that we have proven that alignment specs are not that good from the factory and that some people have photographed their car's struts with visible paint removal, we obviously know that there is some fault with GM.

I removed my front rims and tires to replace them with the the optional 18 wheels and tires. That is the first time I noticed the rubbing. I put the stockers back on and took it in to the dealer. I think they misunderstood my explanation of the problem and thought that I put the 18's on and then the rubbing began. Now mind you, when I took it to the dealership, I left the 18's on the rear, and the 17's up front. They swapped my 18's onto the front and said that there was minimal contact with the strut. I ordered 3 mm spacers and then swapped my 2 other 18" rims on the front and now I am back to square one - same minimal space between the tire and the strut, just like the 17's. I called the dealer back and explained this to them. I mentioned TAC and revised alignment specs and more importantly, this thread. My car has an appt next Monday to have an alignment done with the revised settings. This will take care of this issue once and for all, I hope. DMS and Miscreant -- you 2 are to be commended for your sincere efforts in bringing this issue to light and going overboard to help find a solution. After my car is done, I will post before and after specs as well as driving impressions.

AND TO ALL OF YOU THAT ARE STILL UNSURE ABOUT WHETHER YOU HAVE THIS ISSUE OR NOT...... GET THOSE FRONT TIRES OFF AND TAKE A LOOK BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. Sorry to "yell", but that is the only way you are going to know. Don't wait for a tire rotation, do it as soon as possible.

And just in case for some odd reason that my dealer will not align the car to the revised specs, I will take it to a reputable shop that will and gladly pay to have it done. Then I will consider filing a complaint with the NHSTA.

[heymccall]

My tires look exactly like this. It is from too much negative camber. Listen up, Pontiac. The factory alignment specs suck....(like my dealer.)

[Old ZXXVIII DoOd]

Buy a set of spacers and move on.

[GTOHHH]

Mine are rubbing and the dealer is making me pay for an alignment because I'm over the 7500 miles. I'm trying to get them to paint the struts so that i have some evidence if it happens again.

[miscreant]

Mine are rubbing and the dealer is making me pay for an alignment because I'm over the 7500 miles. I'm trying to get them to paint the struts so that i have some evidence if it happens again.
Alignment is warrantied for 12 months or 12,000 miles...If they make you pay, refuse and call Pontiac Customer Care and give them the TAC number that is floating around here.

[JudgeThis]

Just had my '04 in last week for the same problem. Passenger side strut rubbed on the sidewall and on the inside tread. The perch that the coil sits on caused the rubbing on the tread. I saw it up on the rack, less than an 1/8" clearance on the side and top, as opposed to almost 1/2" on the driver side. Camber was -1.1 as opposed to -0.4 on driver side. Dealer adjusted it at no charge, even though the service manager knows I take the car up to Streets of Willow Springs once a month and drive the shit out of it. Had the car in 3 weeks ago for the speedo issue, temp gauge issue and a brake light problem and asked him to check the alignment then, and they said it was fine.

I'm planning on new tire this week for better traction at the track, buy have been happy with the way the dealer has handled things so far.

[Palmer]

My tires look exactly like this. It is from too much negative camber. Listen up, Pontiac. The factory alignment specs suck....(like my dealer.)

Same here. And believe me, I haven't even start beating on this car! Maybe once or twice going straight, but I really have not pushed the cornering on my goat yet......

[dms]

Mine are rubbing and the dealer is making me pay for an alignment because I'm over the 7500 miles. I'm trying to get them to paint the struts so that i have some evidence if it happens again.


What I would suggest is to call Pontiac Consumer relations. Give them the TAC case number that I posted somewhere, and if you want, give them my name and phone number and they can call me and I will tell them what is going on. My BAC code is 169092, is identifies what dealer I am to them.
My direct line is 925-560-4401. Consumer relations has the ability to get you a refund if you are not too far over 7500 miles. What mileage is it by the way?

Hope this helps
mike
dms

[dms]

Not really sure if anyone has ver posted the alignment specs So here they are

camber: -.2 plus/minues .5 (.-.7 to .3)
caster 7.75 degrees plus minues 1.25 (9.00 to 6.5)
cross caster plus or minus .6 degrees
toe for the front is .17 degrees plus or minues .17 degrees (0 to 3.4 degrees)
stick with something that is close to 0-.17 degrees

rear
camber -1.05 plus or minus .63 (-.42 to -1.68 degrees)
toe is .4 plus.miinus .34 (.06 to .74) again, keep this number low.

For those of you whose middle name is WOT from a stop, and judging from the pictures that are appearing, I think the rear cambers should be as positive as specs allow (-.42 degrees) Adding stiffer springs with more contorl on jounce, and even some upgraded sway bars may help

thanks
mike
dms

[GTOHHH]

What I would suggest is to call Pontiac Consumer relations. Give them the TAC case number that I posted somewhere, and if you want, give them my name and phone number and they can call me and I will tell them what is going on. My BAC code is 169092, is identifies what dealer I am to them.
My direct line is 925-560-4401. Consumer relations has the ability to get you a refund if you are not too far over 7500 miles. What mileage is it by the way?

Hope this helps
mike
dms

Thanks Mike but unfortunately I've got over 14000 miles. My concern is to make GM and NHTSA aware of this that way GM may act on this recurring issue.

[dms]

Thanks Mike but unfortunately I've got over 14000 miles. My concern is to make GM and NHTSA aware of this that way GM may act on this recurring issue.


GM is definately aware of the concern. I have made at least 10 TAC cases and have sent a lot of info to Kobie Glen, Brand Quality Manager for GTO.

I would still recommend you talk to consumer relations, discuss the info on the board here, to see if you can et some goodwill.

mike
dms

[Dragonman]

The one thing I will point out is if the tires are wearing on the inside even close to what was posted above, once this pattern has started, it will stay that way and wear will continue. Tire replacement should be done at warranty expense.
dms


Should I ask for new tires when I take this in to get repaired for this issue? I only have about 6300 miles and no spirited driving.

[GTOHHH]

Should I ask for new tires when I take this in to get repaired for this issue? I only have about 6300 miles and no spirited driving.
I would definitely ask for new tires. You are within the alignment warranty period. :thumbs:

[Pulse Red GTO]

How would you know if your's does this?

[1BadAction]

How would you know if your's does this?

take the wheel off and look at the strut. if theres no paint rubbed away, your good to go. :burnout:

[dms]

How would you know if your's does this?

YOU NEED TO REMOVE THE WHEEL TO SEE IT. TOO DIFFICULT TO SEE WITHOUT REMOVAL. BUT THE TIRE RUB IS NOT CAUSING THE RUB PROBLEM DIRECTLY. IT IS A BYPRODUCT OF NEGATIVE CAMBER, AND TIRE SIZE. I WOULD RECOMMEND ALL GTO OWNERS TO HAVE AN ALIGNMENT CHECK.
WITH LOW MILEAGE, YOU MIGHT USE A TIRE TREAD DEPTH GAGE AND SEE IF THERE IS ANY VARIATION IN TREAD. THIS MIGHT HELP YOU.

MIKE
DMS

[GTOHHH]

How would you know if your's does this?

Mine was obvious. I could hear the rub as I backed up with the windows down. Another easy check is to turn your wheels all the way to the right or left and look for signs of rubbing on the strut and on your tire. Do this sooner rather than later so you don't end up paying for it like I did. :banghead:

[heymccall]

YOU NEED TO REMOVE THE WHEEL TO SEE IT. TOO DIFFICULT TO SEE WITHOUT REMOVAL. BUT THE TIRE RUB IS NOT CAUSING THE RUB PROBLEM DIRECTLY. IT IS A BYPRODUCT OF NEGATIVE CAMBER, AND TIRE SIZE. I WOULD RECOMMEND ALL GTO OWNERS TO HAVE AN ALIGNMENT CHECK.
WITH LOW MILEAGE, YOU MIGHT USE A TIRE TREAD DEPTH GAGE AND SEE IF THERE IS ANY VARIATION IN TREAD. THIS MIGHT HELP YOU.

MIKE
DMS

Why bother taking it to the dealer (my dealer,) when -.7 degree of camber is "in spec" and even if I pay for an alignment, they say it's in spec?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????

Did I mention my dealer is the largest dealer in the northeast and I can promise you that I will never, ever say anything nice about them or buy their again. :mad:

[mrgts1]

nope! Mine also rubs and noted it to the dealer when I had them check the alignment because of premature tire wear.
Paul

[QUOTE=CMNTMXR57]Statistics don't lie.

Out of all the members on this board, your car is the only one I've read about exhibiting this problem. That isn't enough "mass" to start anything.

[BlueSuperGoat]

I want in on this. I just noticed that the insides of my front tires are rubbed off bad (never rotated so never noticed before). Is there anything going on with this suit? Is there anything that I need to do or can do? This is shitty. What is everyone doing to correct the problem? I need to buy new tires, but I'm not going to put new tires on until I fix this rubbing problem.

[silvergoat05]

I want in on this. I just noticed that the insides of my front tires are rubbed off bad (never rotated so never noticed before). Is there anything going on with this suit? Is there anything that I need to do or can do? This is shitty. What is everyone doing to correct the problem? I need to buy new tires, but I'm not going to put new tires on until I fix this rubbing problem.

You get an alignment and have the camber set to "0" or slightly positive. The problem isn't in the tire hieght, although it may exacerbate the problem. The real problem is GM doesn't know what a good alignment is. The last 4 GM's my brother bought since 2000 all have had to have the alignment redone.

[Juniorss]

Just installed my LMII exhaust and when I had my car up in the air I saw the strut was getting chewed up by the wheel. Now the wheel doest look like it was rubbing but i think it may be the wheel rubbing it when I go over bumps. Maybe thats why it rides a little harsh (no the red spacers arent in there). O well, going to report it to my dealer. :banghead:

[04PhantomM6]

Do these look like spirited driving, or camber problems?

Just about to turn 16k miles. They started on the back, and developed the inside problem after rotating to fronts.

[pulse_goat]

I'd like see what's involved organizing a class action lawsuit against GM regarding the strut tower brace wearing away the inside of the tires on our cars. The inside of my tires are completely bald and the dealership is unwilling / unable to do anything about it. I'm getting a new set of tires installed tomorrow along with an alignment. I'm going to document as much as I can about this problem.

Does anyone have any information / experiences about organizing a class action lawsuit? I was part of one a couple years ago which resulted in a successful prosecution.

Tomorrow I'm going to get in touch with a few lawyers, a couple who are friends of mine, to see what we can do.

I recommend that you document as much as you can about this problem so that we can start building a case.

Dude...I paid for 3 alignments after eating up 3 sets of tires from that very same thing. The last stop was the dealer and I still had to pay $110 for an alignment + set of new tires. No go to expect warranty coverage on an expendable maintenance item and as slightly as they rub on the strut, would not cause such damage to the tire as to require replacing. Mine only happens on hard cornering (SCCA Autocross - .9 g force s).n Good luck.

[nutiger]

I just took my car to the dealer for an oil changed and talked to the service manager. He said an engineer was supposed to show this past Friday to look into the alignment problem. The car has been out almost 2 yrs and NOW an engineer is looking into it!? My car also has some paint removed from the strut.

[dms]

GM has noted this issue for a long time. Their fix is to set the cambers as positive as possible but stay within limits.It is not uncommon if your max camber you can get is -1/8 to 0. Most of the time you cannot get the cambers to the positive limit without grinding and slotting, which is an acceptable fix.

mike
dms

[emg32]

GM has noted this issue for a long time. Their fix is to set the cambers as positive as possible but stay within limits.It is not uncommon if your max camber you can get is -1/8 to 0. Most of the time you cannot get the cambers to the positive limit without grinding and slotting, which is an acceptable fix.

mike
dms

Hey Mike, I noticed last week that I have paint rubbed off of my front struts on both sides. I don't see any visible damage to the tires yet but do plan on taking it to the dealer to get it realigned here soon.

Do I just need to tell the dealer to set the camber at either 0 or positive .2 or do I need to tell them to call GM about the TAC and get it done that way?

Thanks

[dms]

Hey Mike, I noticed last week that I have paint rubbed off of my front struts on both sides. I don't see any visible damage to the tires yet but do plan on taking it to the dealer to get it realigned here soon.

Do I just need to tell the dealer to set the camber at either 0 or positive .2 or do I need to tell them to call GM about the TAC and get it done that way?

Thanks


I would tell the dealer this is a common problem and TAC wants them to adjust the cambers as positive as they will go and still stay within specs.
that should be enough

mike
dms

[04PhantomM6]

iF YOU HAVE CUPPING AT 6500MILES, THEN YOU MUST INSIST ON NEW FRONT TIRES. ONCE THEY CUP, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO CUP. WARRANTY WILL PAY FOR THE ALIGNMENTMENT AND TIRES AS LONG AS YOU ARE UNDER 12 MONTHS OLD.

THE SERVICE MANAGER SHOULD CALL TAC TO OPEN A CASE FOR THE 2 PROBLEMS. THEY WILL HAVE HIM CHANGE THE CAMBERS TO .2 DEGREES FROM WHAT YOU PROBABLY HAVE AS -.7 OR -.8. THE SERVICE MANAGER SHOULD HAVE NOT PROBLEM WITH TAC AND GETTING THIS INFO. THIS IS NOT RELATED TO THE CUPPING PROBLEM. THE SUSPENSION AND STEERING AND ALIGNMENT SPECIFICALLY TOW, SHOULD BE CHECKED VERY CAREFULLY.
HOPE THIS HELPS

MIKE
DMS

This is good info. Just wish that I had known before I hit 16k miles. They dealer noted the problem previously severely worn tires, but that is not what I was in there for - I was there for my dash freaking & a paint issue.

[kenchen]

Problem is, 10mm spacers will most likely require longer wheel studs. I tried a 1/4 inch (6.35mm) spacer and had only about five turns on the wheel lug nuts until they were tight. IMHO, this is not enough.

I don't know... the older I've gotten the more I've developed a tolerance for imperfection. What kind of standards would you like others to apply to your efforts? Assuming you're trying to do the best you can...

It seems manufacturing variation has some of our GTOs rubbing front tire sidewalls on the struts. Replacing the factory 48mm offset rims with aftermarket 40mm offsets fixes that immediately... and who doesn't want aftermarket wheels? If the answer is "me", than a set of $10 10mm spacers will fix ya right up. A lot less stress... so you can worry about important things like family and world peace...

Don't mean to get all philisophical... can't help it. :cool:

[wardm6]

Anybody have any luck with getting alignment or tire replacement on a car over 12k miles. We've had the car in a few times for alignment issues with the car pulling to the left. Last time it was in, they said they couldn't find anything. This time, they say the tire is trashed due to poor alignment. :banghead: Feeling around in the dark this morning before leaving for work, I could feel some issues on the inside, but I need to pull it tonight and get some pics. Drive side for this one. Its the wife's primary driver, so I am not even sure how many miles are on it. I thinks its 20k or close to that.

[torridredaccd]

I suffered through the same problem a few months ago. I never thoughtto check the inside of my tires for wear until they went flat. I had about 30k miles and took it to a dealership after I got newtires on the car and they tried to blame my nittos. I brought them the original tires and they still wouldnt fix it. I lost my patience with this dealership and contacted GM directly. They said that they would contact the cealership and get this resolved. I went back the next possible day and when the car wasdone they tried to charge me for an alignment again which I had payed for the previous trip. I was enough of pain in the ass about not paying them for that they let me ago, never to return, but my wheels still rubbed on the struts. The next dealership I called said that they get this problem all the time and that it is covered under warranty. They said that all they had to do was re-align the strut cover and now my wheels dont rub at all even with the nittos.

[dms]

I suffered through the same problem a few months ago. I never thoughtto check the inside of my tires for wear until they went flat. I had about 30k miles and took it to a dealership after I got newtires on the car and they tried to blame my nittos. I brought them the original tires and they still wouldnt fix it. I lost my patience with this dealership and contacted GM directly. They said that they would contact the cealership and get this resolved. I went back the next possible day and when the car wasdone they tried to charge me for an alignment again which I had payed for the previous trip. I was enough of pain in the ass about not paying them for that they let me ago, never to return, but my wheels still rubbed on the struts. The next dealership I called said that they get this problem all the time and that it is covered under warranty. They said that all they had to do was re-align the strut cover and now my wheels dont rub at all even with the nittos.


HMMM, Re-aligning the strut cover, No such thing. They may be using a strut code operation to be able to get the alignment done for you. What i do not understand is with all the discussion on this board about strut/tire rub going on for almost a year I think, why did it take 30,000 miles to get the alignment correct. Was your dealer that incompetent?? Glad you finally got it fixed. the fix is to adjsut the cambers as positive as you can get it and still stay within specs.

mike dms

[wardm6]

No pics last night - the battery in the camera was dead of course.

Did get a chance to look at it better. I'll try to describe it and get pictures done and up over the weekend. Its the driver side tire, and the tire is worn away right at the edge of the sidewall. Not only that, but its scooped out at a radiusalong the edge, I don't see how this tire damage could be caused by misalignment. There is definite rub marks on the strut, but not so much marking on the sidewall like some of the earlier pics showed. Hopefully the pics will explain what I mean.

[godsthere]

I just took my tires off and my GOd. What is going on? 9900 miles the front tires are destroyed. I was thinking about buying the car at the end of the lease but not with a saferty problem like this.

[GTOast]

I have 17,000 on the factory tires, and im having them replaced as i speak, do you know where i can get this done at with no hassle, local pontiac dealership is freaking incompetent...I live on the central coast, and im up for a road trip...lemme know

edit..do you know where i can get the alignment/camber adjustment done...tires are on the car

[pulse_goat]

I just took my tires off and my GOd. What is going on? 9900 miles the front tires are destroyed. I was thinking about buying the car at the end of the lease but not with a saferty problem like this.

Yea, went through my first set in 6000 mi, my second at 5500mi and after 2 alignments, chewed up my 3rd set before I hit 14k. Took it into the dealer to have them do an alignment and to ensure they have a history if indeed something was dorked up with the suspension. I bought a set of Khumo ASX and they seem to be wearing great. They said the toe(sp) was WAY off on the front which is why I was chewing through tires. I have some rub on the struts but not extreme.

Good luck man.

[pulse_goat]

I have 17,000 on the factory tires, and im having them replaced as i speak, do you know where i can get this done at with no hassle, local pontiac dealership is freaking incompetent...I live on the central coast, and im up for a road trip...lemme know

edit..do you know where i can get the alignment/camber adjustment done...tires are on the car

Just take my car to Discount Tire. They have a good selection and seem to do a good job with balance.

[Redfred]

not so much dealers but getting all the memos about race damage and abuse ect don't warrenty it. i had to take the dealer to where i drive and make the turn so he could see it wasn't race damage. anfter he heard the grating crunch it got fixed fast.

[torridredaccd]

HMMM, Re-aligning the strut cover, No such thing. They may be using a strut code operation to be able to get the alignment done for you. What i do not understand is with all the discussion on this board about strut/tire rub going on for almost a year I think, why did it take 30,000 miles to get the alignment correct. Was your dealer that incompetent?? Glad you finally got it fixed. the fix is to adjsut the cambers as positive as you can get it and still stay within specs.

mike dms

It is always possible that the dealership was feeding me a load of crap just to make me go away,but they arent rubbing any more. I only noticed the bald insides on the tires at 30k, and I had the car from 24k. Second owner:drink:

[lanceygto]

I just want to add that this problem seems to be widespread and that most of us are going to our dealers and there is nothing GM is doing about this problem, not even a service bulletin. Dealers (except DMS) don't care about service as well. Seems like dealers as well as GM are sales focused, which in the long run is trying to win a race limping you way through to save money on running shoes. The GTO is the first GM car ever for me, and it will be the last. Now I am stuck with a GTO rubbing my tires and there is no definitve and practical solution for the problem.

We could align our cars to the positive side and that would be a problem at real high speeds. I do not know much about alignment but I am told the negative camber is meant for cars at higher speeds. I could align my GTO positive and still be good for grocery shopping, but then again, I already have other cars for that. I could go to smaller tires, but then again, I thought I was purchasing a muscle car like adevertised. There's plenty imports around for that.

Mustangs may be initially underpowered as compared to the GTO but as far as I know it does not have so many issues as this GTO has. Furthermore, with less than the money I have spent on my GTO I could have modded a Mustang into a fierce and formidable contender.

I may have as many as this one strut rub issue as a reson for a class action suit (hypothetical as we don not have the resources to do so), but I have this and so many other reasons not to buy another GTO given a chance, and that is real sad for this car could be a real enjoyable car if it was not for GM poor service.

GM, you suck!

[TOPPED_OUT]

I just want to add that this problem seems to be widespread and that most of us are going to our dealers and there is nothing GM is doing about this problem, not even a service bulletin. Dealers (except DMS) don't care about service as well. Seems like dealers as well as GM are sales focused, which in the long run is trying to win a race limping you way through to save money on running shoes. The GTO is the first GM car ever for me, and it will be the last. Now I am stuck with a GTO rubbing my tires and there is no definitve and practical solution for the problem.

We could align our cars to the positive side and that would be a problem at real high speeds. I do not know much about alignment but I am told the negative camber is meant for cars at higher speeds. I could align my GTO positive and still be good for grocery shopping, but then again, I already have other cars for that. I could go to smaller tires, but then again, I thought I was purchasing a muscle car like adevertised. There's plenty imports around for that.

Mustangs may be initially underpowered as compared to the GTO but as far as I know it does not have so many issues as this GTO has. Furthermore, with less than the money I have spent on my GTO I could have modded a Mustang into a fierce and formidable contender.

I may have as many as this one strut rub issue as a reson for a class action suit (hypothetical as we don not have the resources to do so), but I have this and so many other reasons not to buy another GTO given a chance, and that is real sad for this car could be a real enjoyable car if it was not for GM poor service.

GM, you suck!

Agreed wholeheartedly.........I can tolerate certain quality issues. However, for something safety related that seems to be wide-spread AND to be told by the dealer AND General Motors Customer Service to go pound sand.....well....GM can kiss my ass.

I'll find my 300+ horsepower thrills elsewhere.....

[sentay]

Be careful about replacing tires. I 've dealt with gm about my rubbing issue. I wanted the car replaced. It didn't happen. What it came down to is I replaced my tires with aftermarket tires and that is probably whats causing the problem. Of course I let them know that I had to replace the tires becuase of the rubbing, but they didn't care. It was the reg. serv. managers way out. Even though, the first time I brought the car in for an alignment was at 500 miles. The funny thing is I didn't by the tires. BFgoodrich replaced them with Michelins for free. I got a major guard service contract, but that doesn't fix the problem. I will say this ; the problem was fixed on the 05's and the only parts that are different are the spindles. So, I have purchased a set of 05 spindles and will be having them installed. Hopefully that will fix the problem. Gm has dropped the ball on this one.

[TOPPED_OUT]

Be careful about replacing tires. I 've dealt with gm about my rubbing issue. I wanted the car replaced. It didn't happen. What it came down to is I replaced my tires with aftermarket tires and that is probably whats causing the problem. Of course I let them know that I had to replace the tires becuase of the rubbing, but they didn't care. It was the reg. serv. managers way out. Even though, the first time I brought the car in for an alignment was at 500 miles. The funny thing is I didn't by the tires. BFgoodrich replaced them with Michelins for free. I got a major guard service contract, but that doesn't fix the problem. I will say this ; the problem was fixed on the 05's and the only parts that are different are the spindles. So, I have purchased a set of 05 spindles and will be having them installed. Hopefully that will fix the problem. Gm has dropped the ball on this one.

Dunno about that....my car is an '05 and I suffered a blowout due to strut rub.

[ZeNiTH]

Anybody with an '06 that has had this issue?

[dms]

I do not think i have seen a 05-06 with the rub issue

mike
dms

[lanceygto]

I replaced the tires with 245/45/17 Nitto 555 Extreme Radials which are slightly smaller than OEM (I don not think that makes much difference, though.), adjusted front camber to -0.3, and trimmed the strut housing welding ring portion facing the tire sidewall and I have no more strut rub after careful testing.

I am sure there are plenty of better educated explanations for strut rub than mine, but I think it is all do to the wrong wheel offset in combination with some alignment error back in the Holden assembly line or some shipping system problem. How can we otherwise explain that most of us had a -1.1 right front camber reading all acroos the nation? Same side, same camber reading, same strut rub, all of which can be corrected by a simple alignment and some grinding indicates to me that this is a Holden and/or shipping problem.

I went to my dealer and they just told me it is an alignment problem. I showed then all the reports I have and they insisted there is no GM bulletin on the subject. I thanked the service manager, shook his hand, kept a good relation, walked away, got myself new tires and an alignment, tested myself, filed down the weld ring and solved the problem. I am not going back to GM with further claims, not because we do not have a valid claim, but because I just don't have the time nor inclination to raise hell over the issue. Yes, I took a loss on thje tires. I am glad I got rid of them KDWS and got myself some Nittos. They are much better performing tires, big difference. I bet all those guys with F1's, Toyos, S3's and Pilots are happy customers as well.

My hope would be that GM recognizes the problem and looks for a realistic solution and save some lives. Someone can get hurt with this problem, if it has not happened already with the problem going unnoticed.

[dms]

I replaced the tires with 245/45/17 Nitto 555 Extreme Radials which are slightly smaller than OEM (I don not think that makes much difference, though.), adjusted front camber to -0.3, and trimmed the strut housing welding ring portion facing the tire sidewall and I have no more strut rub after careful testing.

I am sure there are plenty of better educated explanations for strut rub than mine, but I think it is all do to the wrong wheel offset in combination with some alignment error back in the Holden assembly line or some shipping system problem. How can we otherwise explain that most of us had a -1.1 right front camber reading all acroos the nation? Same side, same camber reading, same strut rub, all of which can be corrected by a simple alignment and some grinding indicates to me that this is a Holden and/or shipping problem.

I went to my dealer and they just told me it is an alignment problem. I showed then all the reports I have and they insisted there is no GM bulletin on the subject. I walked away, got myself new tires and an alignment, tested myself, filed down the weld ring and solved the problem. I am not going back to GM with further claims, not because we do not have a valid claim, but because I just don't have the time nor inclination to raise hell over the issue. Yes, I took a loss on thje tires. I am glad I got rid of them KDWS and got myself some Nittos. They are much better performing tires, big difference. I bet all those guys with F1's, Toyos, S3's and Pilots are happy customers as well.

My hope would be that GM recognizes the problem and looks for a realistic solution and save some lives. Someone can get hurt with this problem, if it has not happened already with the problem going unnoticed.

To start, there is no bulletin on the tire wear concern. However, GM is totally aware of the problem. they have lots of documented cases registered at technical assistance, and if the dealership calls TAC, they can find this out. TAC will tell them to increase cambers until the contact is gone, and still be within specs. I personally have had great success getting them to the -.3 camber area.But have had some that i had to go to .1 camber.

the problem the dealers have is the production of the GTO is so small, dealerships do not have a lot of info. I know for a fact that you know more about the GTO than your dealership does. This is becasue you do a great job of reading, investigating the posts on this site.

I have championed 2 causes for the GTO: The front SAP fascia repair, which GM just acknowledged last month and this took almost 2 years. i have also sent dozens of pictures of the tire rub issue to TAC and Kobee Glen, brand quality manager for GTO. But I am just one guy, and unique among service managers in the country. i have the same love affair for the GTO as all of you do. So there is nothing more than i can do on this subject.


But this topic has been around a very long time; since 2004 I think. We did advise everyone on this board to tke a peek at the front struts at every tire rotation, and to use the tire placard PSI of 35PSI cold only. This was critical. I have replaced many GTO tires due to alignment and suspension issues, and I think I have done a good job trying to inform all of you of the dues and donts and what ifs. about the tires, suspension issues, and what to do to resolve them. However, i have never seen a tire in person be destroyed by the physical contact of the tire to the strut. But have seen a lot of tires destroyed by high negative cambers, and cupping, due to lack of rotation, underinflation, and bad radius rod bushings. this damage is on the inner section of the tread, and not the vertical section of the inner side wall.

On the positive note, the KDWS tires are crap for your specific beast. With your Maggie and track time, they are grossly inferior for your needs. I do not remember if you have udpated any of your suspension stuff, but would strongly recommend it. Take care

mike
dms

[DrEvyl]

Apparently you have no idea how class action lawsuits work. Throughout the past two decades the only parties that have recieved anything from a class action case were attorneys. I am sure some of your attorney friends will like the idea because they will score and the consumers will get nothing. There was an RCA case a few years ago due to defective TVs in which the customers recieved a 50 dollar coupon for a new tv and the attorney's recieved nearly 10 million in fees.

Wow, so I guess the $15K I got from Microsoft on the perma-temp class action suit was just imaginary, huh?

[MacDogg]

Wow, so I guess the $15K I got from Microsoft on the perma-temp class action suit was just imaginary, huh?
In that case the attorneys got almost $30 million out of the almost $100 million settlement. I wish I was an attorney.

[DrEvyl]

In that case the attorneys got almost $30 million out of the almost $100 million settlement. I wish I was an attorney.

Yeah, but they worked their way into their position, and I'm sure they gave up a lot to get there, and if they can demand the money and get it, I say give it to them. I'm not going to complain about being handed what basically turned out to be a free WS6 Trans Am.

I'm not going to hate on people for being capitalistic, that's what this country is all about.

[Dabosss]

Damn just ball kick the hell out of him!!!! Holy Crap

[yellowjacket21580]

My '04's front left is rubbing, cant tell on the right. I have 12,000 miles on the car and the original tires. I'm going in the dealership on tuesday due to a rough road noise/growl coming from somewhere in the front and I will mention this rubbing issue and reference the case and its recommendations. Thanks

Rich

[Patroit]

Will check mine.

[Black Devil]

What would the chances of being able to get in on this suit? My biggest question has to do with aftermarket stuff. If I got sway bars, and some bushings, I would assume I am not able to get in?

[yellowjacket21580]

I do have aftermarket rims, but factory tires(originals)....hopefully I can get in. Another thing is that the right rear tire is wearing on the inside of the tire. I guess I should just (like I said above) take it in and see what they can do.

Rich

[GTOguy25]

I would like to do something about about this issue. Take a look: http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/ztobar/03150 61349.jpg

Please keep me updated.

[zero]

I would like to do something about about this issue. Take a look: http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/ztobar/03150 61349.jpg

Please keep me updated.


Hey folk.. Its real easy to put this stuff in check before your tire is at a dangerous level. Crank the wheel and look every couple stops.

[BLUEBYU]

i would be in for this if i can , i have 4 screwed up factory tires

[2BRAZEN4u]

Does this "rub" only happen w/ 17" wheels....or does it happen to the 18"'s as well??

[zero]

I saw DMS saying he hadn't seen it on the 18s due to 18s comming in the 235 series. I hope I am remembering correctly.