Gun Folks, Need an Opinion:

[StormSigma]

I was at the gun shop today picking up a spare mag for my Smith & Wesson M&P .45 when I saw a pistol in their "S&M section" that looked pretty sweet. The price was also really decent, it was this gun:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDispla y?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14822&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15713&isFirearm=Y

The Sigma Series? Does anyone have any experience with this pistol? I'm able to pick this up for under $400, so it seems like a great price for a brand new 9mm. I also liked the black and silver color combo.

[wolfdogs]

supposed to be reliable. but there are better poly's on the market for the same price. ie: SA xd 9mm

[Scurvy]

just like wolfdogs said:

XD ftw

[FiXXXer024]

S&W FTL... I only trust my life to their cuffs, not thier guns.

[Bandit]

Sigma = garbage.

Glock, XD, HK P2000, HK P30, all far superior choices.

[machine73]

Had some experience with the Sigmas years ago when I was working in a gun store/indoor range. Many customers had issues with their Sigmas. I fired a few and wasn't impressed at all. Bad accuracy, reliability, etc. If I recall correctly, I think it was US Customs (not 100% on that) that almost adopted them as their sidearm. The Sigmas performed terribly in the tests and whatever agency it was decided to go with another pistol. Recently, I bought my wife a Springfield Armory XD (really a Croation pistol). It seems to be a decent enough sidearm for the money spent. The springs and slide release are all tight as hell though. Should loosen up after a few hundred rounds. I have a USP .40 for myself. can't say enough good things about it. Hope that helps.

Sean

[StormSigma]

Sigma = garbage.

Glock, XD, HK P2000, HK P30, all far superior choices.

All at far superior prices too, unfortunately. Though there was a Ruger I was interested in also I may check out.

[Scurvy]

All at far superior prices too, unfortunately. Though there was a Ruger I was interested in also I may check out.

You can get a XD for under 500.

If it was Sigma vs Ruger... go RUGER

[machine73]

At least the Ruger will be reliable. Academy Sports had the XD's for $499. That isn't so much more than the Sigma. Or go with a moderately priced wheel gun.

[IDNTWN2]

Not to Hijack - well crap OK, Hijacking

Anybody have any experience with the little Kahr .45? My range does not have a shooting arrangement with them so I can't shoot one in town. It's LITTLE. very nice for CCW if it works well.

Sorry OP - no experience with the Sigma. Price seems might good though. XD's are not much more than that though and they are very very nice. Love em.

[StormSigma]

You can get a XD for under 500.

If it was Sigma vs Ruger... go RUGER

But under $400? This Sigma is sitting at my local shop for under $400, which is why I was even looking at it in the first place. A decent 9mm under four bones would be preferable. If you have any other suggestions in that price range, I'm down to hear 'em.

[elpuerco]

Are you using this gun as a "back-up" or as a primary? Or is it just a target practice 9mm?

You are in security, right?


Note: I have no background in firearms, I'm just asking so people that are giving responses will have a better idea what you are looking for in a pistol.

[speeddemon]

for a decent shooter you cant go wrong,but 9mm is not my favorite round for stopping power

[machine73]

Under 4 bills may be tough for a new gun. Unless S&W changed the Sigma considerably since it's initial release... I wouldn't spend any money on it. For me, reliability is paramount in a sidearm. I'm not a gun snob, so a Ruger would suit me just fine. Maybe if you search around a bit, you might be able to come up with a decently priced used gun.

[StormSigma]

Are you using this gun as a "back-up" or as a primary? Or is it just a target practice 9mm?

You are in security, right?


Note: I have no background in firearms, I'm just asking so people that are giving responses will have a better idea what you are looking for in a pistol.

It's more for a decent target practice pistol. .45 ammo is expensive, and I shoot plenty of it, but it'd be nice to be able to shoot a cheaper round that still has realworld use. The wife has a .22 beginner pistol that she's working with, until we can get her up to 9mm herself. Of course, the Sigma is also small enough for carry, something I admired about it.

[StormSigma]

Under 4 bills may be tough for a new gun. Unless S&W changed the Sigma considerably since it's initial release... I wouldn't spend any money on it. For me, reliability is paramount in a sidearm. I'm not a gun snob, so a Ruger would suit me just fine. Maybe if you search around a bit, you might be able to come up with a decently priced used gun.

Well, the Ruger I saw was also 9mm, two-tone and 9mm, and it was like $389. Something like that. I may have a second look when I go back.

[machine73]

Could have been the P95. Ruger makes good weapons man. They are a bit blocky and have sloppy triggers, but they are well built and totally reliable. Perhaps there is a local range that rents guns? That would be the best way to see what you like. Rent a few and run some ammo through 'em. In the end it is really going to be about what you like. You may shoot the Sigma and Ruger only to find they both feel like total crap in your hands. You might be able to find a good deal on a CZ-75 variant, like a Baby Eagle. Or, for concealabilty in your price range there is the Kel Tec. Those are known to have a pretty heavy trigger though. I would still consider a used pistol or revolver. Happy hunting.

[machine73]

Just reading some reviews... looks like S&W made some changes to the Sigma line. Eh, go buy it and shoot the crap out of it!

[nesikachad]

A wise old man once told me.

"Chad, anything worth making is worth making out of steel."


Wilson Combat FTW

[greg'sgoat]

I think for a decent target pistol, it'd be good. Find an indoor range that'll rent you Sigma (any caliber to test function) and see how it runs.

XD, Glock, HK all great to some (I have HK and love it) but a lot of people hate the feel of XD or Glock or HK. So.....ya.

Here's a decent link. You can look around the S&W section for any more info.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=16&t=50780

[Scurvy]

A wise old man once told me.

"Chad, anything worth making is worth making out of steel."


Wilson Combat FTW

Meh.

My three pistols alone, P220, USP, XD cost less combined than a wilson 1911

[man2machine]

I shot a 9mm Sigma a while back... I liked it. But I will never trust a hammerless and/or plastic gun. I have a Ruger P85 that I've had for years and have shot a ton. It's still accurate as hell, never has given me ANY problem, and as far as an auto loader goes I trust it because I know it. If my life depends on a firearm I'll go with a .357 wheel gun any day though... preferably a S&W 686 or an old model 28. Love them both.
m2m

[speeddemon]

A wise old man once told me.

"Chad, anything worth making is worth making out of steel."


Wilson Combat FTW
beautiful pistols

[Scurvy]

But I will never trust a hammerless and/or plastic gun.

Just have to give a big LOL at this statement.

Edit: some light reading

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46253 7

http://www.hs-arms.com/europe/files/tests/frame_engl.htm

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php

http://membres.lycos.fr/shooter/glock/glock4.html

[nesikachad]

Meh.

My three pistols alone, P220, USP, XD cost less combined than a wilson 1911


Get what you pay for. . .

[Scurvy]

Get what you pay for. . .

I'm not dissing the Wilson at all, I've shot them, they are a fine gun. But honestly, what is that going to give me over a gun at 1/3 the cost, besides a fancy name tag?

[nesikachad]

I'm not dissing the Wilson at all, I've shot them, they are a fine gun. But honestly, what is that going to give me over a gun at 1/3 the cost, besides a fancy name tag?


The same thing a Vette gives you over driving a Chevette. . .

I'm not being an ass, just playing around.

We all have priorities and we justify our emotional purchases each in our own way. Where one guy spends five grand on a Rolex Sub Mariner I'm content with my $400 Seiko Diver.

I take guns seriously cause that's what I do for a living. So a $2500 pistol isn't hard for me to justify to myself.

Some of you guys have $6,000 dollar TV sets. I can't bring myself to do that, but I have spent stupid money on home audio.

To each his own.

[markas70]

I picked up my XD 9 for 375.00, yes it was used but less than two mags shot
thru it. SA has a life time warranty on the XD no matter if you got it used or not.
This is my third xd and ( 9,40,45) and never have had a problem and over 5000
rounds thru the 40. I shoot IDPA is why I have so many rounds thru the gun.
Get one that fits your hand and is comf to you. You buy just on price then
you get what you paid for most of the time.

[YouHolden?]

I have never owned a Smith and Wesson, so I can't say this definitively, but every broken in S&W I have held has felt very loose and- dare I say "cheap" feeling to me. Like others have said on this board, the XD is by far a better gun and will stay nice and tight after 10,000 rounds. (I have put about 7,000 through my 3" .40)

If you are looking for a range gun and are not necessarily worried about "practicing for the real thing" I would strongly recommend a .22. We are talking 550 rounds for 10 bucks- that is more than you can possibly shoot for a day at the range, you will end up spending more on targets. Not only that, but even if you are a proficient shooter, a Ruger is still going to be able to out shoot you.

For $411 I found a brand new Ruger 22/45 Mark III Hunter (45 grip frame, 6 7/8" barrel, adjustable sights etc.) It is a gun that will never break, is silky smooth to shoot, and is a sexy stainless steel to boot. Just my .02

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=54&variation=Hunter&bct=Yes&type=Pistol

[Quantim0]

Buy another M&P, but in 9mm. They are around $450 here, you know they work and shoot well. You might have to put it off a month or so to save the extra $100, but to me the gun is worth it.

Plus they extended the $50 and 2 free mag rebate untill 4/30.

[TexRdnec]

S&W sigmas have the worst trigger pull of anything i have ever held from a major manufacturer, i would spend the extra money on a better pistol.

my pistols are all wheel guns and 1911s except for one and it's an XD FWIW

[Ross]

All at far superior prices too, unfortunately. Though there was a Ruger I was interested in also I may check out.

Go with a Ruger P-89.

The Sigmas are entry level (i.e. inexpensive) guns, and they perform that way.

[unsigned]

I have that Sigma 9, bought it for cheap trigger time (200 rounds last night). Its not great, the 8lbs trigger pull is a bit much, but its totally controllable out to 15 yards.

Would I recommend it? No, would I say buy a Ruger over it? No. The ruger isn't that great of a gun either...

[Scurvy]

The same thing a Vette gives you over driving a Chevette. . .

I'm not being an ass, just playing around.

We all have priorities and we justify our emotional purchases each in our own way. Where one guy spends five grand on a Rolex Sub Mariner I'm content with my $400 Seiko Diver.

I take guns seriously cause that's what I do for a living. So a $2500 pistol isn't hard for me to justify to myself.

Some of you guys have $6,000 dollar TV sets. I can't bring myself to do that, but I have spent stupid money on home audio.

To each his own.

Yes but there's a marked performance advantage between a corvette and a chevette.

The watch has a marked difference in movement

and the 6,000 tv also has a marked improvement in performance, same with audio equipment.

What performance advantage does a $2500 wilson combat 1911 have over a Sig P220 or even a $1500 custom 1911 by a diff manufacturer?

[howard100]

I own a Sigma 9mm and a 40sw. Like stated above they're not the most accurate gun out there and they do have a heavy trigger. If I only planned on owning one pistol a Sigma wouldn't be it. I would check out some 1911's. My favorite all around pistol I own is the Kimber Pro CDP II. Spend the extra money, you'll be happy you did. Besides, guns are a good investment.

[GTPprix]

I was at the gun shop today picking up a spare mag for my Smith & Wesson M&P .45 when I saw a pistol in their "S&M section" that looked pretty sweet. The price was also really decent, it was this gun:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDispla y?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14822&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15713&isFirearm=Y

The Sigma Series? Does anyone have any experience with this pistol? I'm able to pick this up for under $400, so it seems like a great price for a brand new 9mm. I also liked the black and silver color combo.
They were giving those away with a purchase of one of thier AR's around the holidays LOL

[Scurvy]

S&W sigmas have the worst trigger pull of anything i have ever held from a major manufacturer, i would spend the extra money on a better pistol.


By chance does the sigma have a magazine disconnect safety?

[Bandit]

Don't put a pricetag on your life.

Even if it is not a primary defense pistol, and "only used for the range" it will be in your home, and in some random situation COULD be the only line of defense for you or your family.

Sit back, gather up an extra paycheck or two, and spend a little bit more for a weapon that will perform, and in the end will be more enjoyable as a toy for the range. Nothing worse than a crappy trigger pull, or a pistol that FTF's every mag when all you wanna do is relax and have some fun.

I don't believe I have ever spent less than $500 on any gun, and even that would be rare. Most are around a grand and some much higher.

[T-FATTY]

What do you guys think of the S&W MP series?

[Bandit]

What do you guys think of the S&W MP series?

Honestly?

If you want a Glock, then buy a Glock... not a S&W. But that admittedly is a personal opinion. The MP's have been getting favorable reviews, I just don't find them appealing.

Not crazy about the trigger, and the accuracy is not up to par on the ones I have shot. That's not to say that ALL of them need to be more accurate, but the 3 I shot weren't as accurate as my Glock, or HK's.

[T-FATTY]

I had Glock 23, was a great gun. I wanted to get a Glock 27? [40] but it didn't feel good in hand, to small pinky finger not on butt of gun. And i don't want another 23 too big. What else is out there that a little bigger than a 27 and smaller than a 23 and is a quality gun? TIA.

[Bandit]

I had Glock 23, was a great gun. I wanted to get a Glock 27? [40] but it didn't feel good in hand, to small pinky finger not on butt of gun. And i don't want another 23 too big. What else is out there that a little bigger than a 27 and smaller than a 23 and is a quality gun? TIA.

Toss a +2 on the G27 mag and it fits almost like a G23. Or add a Pierce grip if you don't like the +2 cap.

+2 cap on mag:

http://lh3.google.com/rcalabraro/RpKyApi61XI/AAAAA AAAApU/805nwLwDjgA/Glock%2027%20.40%20CAL.jpg



Pierce grip:

http://www.tngunowners.com/photos/data/2/medium/DS CF0762.JPG

NOT my pics

[unsigned]

Don't put a pricetag on your life.

Even if it is not a primary defense pistol, and "only used for the range" it will be in your home, and in some random situation COULD be the only line of defense for you or your family.

Sit back, gather up an extra paycheck or two, and spend a little bit more for a weapon that will perform, and in the end will be more enjoyable as a toy for the range. Nothing worse than a crappy trigger pull, or a pistol that FTF's every mag when all you wanna do is relax and have some fun.

I don't believe I have ever spent less than $500 on any gun, and even that would be rare. Most are around a grand and some much higher.

I wouldn't hesitate to trust the Sigma in a HD situation. It is an S&W not a total piece of crap. Like a Glock or an H&K you could crap in the mag and it would feed it. I do like my 2G sigma SW40V better than the SW9VE. The lighter trigger pull makes all the difference.

Dollar amount spent means almost nothing. Recently I was talking with an armorer for a local PD. He told me a story about an H&K, that misfired. The officer had been in a minor tussle and ended up falling in some snow, nothing major. 2 weeks later its qualifying time, he pulls the gun out and it goes *click* and not boom. Turns out the firing pin had rusted to the race. The better news? Parts are on a 6-month backorder. The USP costs what? $800 or so?

This armorer is making the push to move to the S&W M&P. He thinks it is a superior weapon.

[Bandit]

I wouldn't hesitate to trust the Sigma in a HD situation. It is an S&W not a total piece of crap. Like a Glock or an H&K you could crap in the mag and it would feed it. I do like my 2G sigma SW40V better than the SW9VE. The lighter trigger pull makes all the difference.

Dollar amount spent means almost nothing. Recently I was talking with an armorer for a local PD. He told me a story about an H&K, that misfired. The officer had been in a minor tussle and ended up falling in some snow, nothing major. 2 weeks later its qualifying time, he pulls the gun out and it goes *click* and not boom. Turns out the firing pin had rusted to the race. The better news? Parts are on a 6-month backorder. The USP costs what? $800 or so?

This armorer is making the push to move to the S&W M&P. He thinks it is a superior weapon.

1) MOST cops are not gun people. I have seen an officer bring in a pistol that they owned and had never fired before, but was carrying it ON DUTY for a year. The action was rusted closed, and was a hazard to the officer and everyone around the officer. To many cops a gun is a tool, and if not needed they rarely ever practice, and are not generally 'fans' of guns enough to know the slight differences between all of the many options on the market.

2) "Dollar amount spent means almost nothing" is totally incorrect. It is true that SOME instances of a reasonably priced gun can prove to be accurate and/or reliable, but this is not the benchmark.

If your opinion were correct then Lorcin and Hi-Point would be the ultimate guns....

[Jizz]

I like it.

[unsigned]

2) "Dollar amount spent means almost nothing" is totally incorrect. It is true that SOME instances of a reasonably priced gun can prove to be accurate and/or reliable, but this is not the benchmark.

If your opinion were correct then Lorcin and Hi-Point would be the ultimate guns....


Dude, WTF did you think the 'almost' part meant? The point was to trust a reputable manufacture and select based on other merits than price price alone. Yeah, a $1K gun should be more accurate than a $350 gun, but means almost nothing in terms of feed and action. To compare a Sigma to a Lorcin is just ludicrous.

I've seen Kimber auto's have problems with fine factory loads. I've seen Colt's that have rattly loose slides out of the box. Both near a g-note on the retail market. There are 1911 variants from everyone on the market now. What sets apart Para-Ordnance from Sig from S&W? They are all in the same price range...

How many Desert Eagle's have feed issues? Answer: All of them.
The DE is a purpose built target pistol and is well over a G-note.

S&W has fixed the polymer and trigger issues in the Sigma for the VE series. Its a fine low end pistol from a manufacture that stands behind the product with great ergonomics and a simple design.

[Scurvy]

for $350 the extra hundred for a XD is completely worth it.

The triggers are much nicer
They will feed empty casings (I've done it several time because it's hilarious)
Springfield backs it with an unlimited, unquestioned lifetime warranty
-people have kaboomed them using their own handloads (IE 100% the user's fault) and springfield has still honored the warranty.

[archerm3]

Sigma = garbage.

Glock, XD, HK P2000, HK P30, all far superior choices.

:iagree:

Plus, putting a sigma in your pocket is like shoplifting a skillet out of bed bath and beyond.

[Scurvy]

PS. S&W was sued, successfully, for copyright infringement by GLOCK and had to change the design of the sigma. I doubt those changed made it better lol

[archerm3]

1) MOST cops are not gun people. I have seen an officer bring in a pistol that they owned and had never fired before, but was carrying it ON DUTY for a year. The action was rusted closed, and was a hazard to the officer and everyone around the officer. To many cops a gun is a tool, and if not needed they rarely ever practice, and are not generally 'fans' of guns enough to know the slight differences between all of the many options on the market.

2) "Dollar amount spent means almost nothing" is totally incorrect. It is true that SOME instances of a reasonably priced gun can prove to be accurate and/or reliable, but this is not the benchmark.

If your opinion were correct then Lorcin and Hi-Point would be the ultimate guns....

:iagree:

Same with military. Lots of "always been civilian" shooters can shoot way better than cops and military folk.

Just like I'm not a stapler expert even though I use one every day.

[Bandit]

Dude, WTF did you thing the 'almost' part meant.

Sorry man, I honestly didn't see the "almost" part. I agree on most points, I've had a few defective high dollar pistols. Although (knock on wood) none have been in my Glocks or HKs.

And back to StormSigma..........

I think you should buy a 1911. Not because it really suits your needs, or fits any part of what you asked about but because.......

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4877/1911tanksk z2.gif

LOL!

[CoolAid]

Get what you pay for. . .

+1. I surely didnt buy a tiny pocket sized sub compact XD-40 wrist snapping, hits you anywhere and you'll bleed out, hand cannon for the range. It is specifically for the funk.

How much is your life worth to you?

[nesikachad]

Yes but there's a marked performance advantage between a corvette and a chevette.

The watch has a marked difference in movement

and the 6,000 tv also has a marked improvement in performance, same with audio equipment.

What performance advantage does a $2500 wilson combat 1911 have over a Sig P220 or even a $1500 custom 1911 by a diff manufacturer?


Go shoot one once. Then you'll know.

[Scurvy]

Go shoot one once. Then you'll know.

I have. I didn't see the attraction. sure the trigger was the proverial glass rod but like 90% of 1911s are

[StormSigma]

Honestly?

If you want a Glock, then buy a Glock... not a S&W. But that admittedly is a personal opinion. The MP's have been getting favorable reviews, I just don't find them appealing.

Not crazy about the trigger, and the accuracy is not up to par on the ones I have shot. That's not to say that ALL of them need to be more accurate, but the 3 I shot weren't as accurate as my Glock, or HK's.

Honestly? Glocks suck. They aren't comfortable (but then, a gun with a handgrip designed with a ruler wouldn't be, would it?), and there are plenty of other guns just as durable, reliable, and accurate.

Such as the S&M M&P I own. For me, my experiences have been the exact opposite. I shot Glocks in all three calibers, and thought their name given by a lot of knowledgeable gun people (They're crap, combat tupperware) was well given.

My M&P is far and away the more accurate gun to me.

[jonfor]

I think you should buy a 1911. Not because it really suits your needs, or fits any part of what you asked about but because.......

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4877/1911tanksk z2.gif

LOL!

in his life, at least once, every man should have sex with two woman at once, drive a V8, and own a 1911,

[nesikachad]

in his life, at least once, every man should have sex with two woman at once, drive a V8, and own a 1911,

Will you please run for President of the United States so I can vote for you?

[Bandit]

Honestly? Glocks suck. They aren't comfortable (but then, a gun with a handgrip designed with a ruler wouldn't be, would it?), and there are plenty of other guns just as durable, reliable, and accurate.

Such as the S&M M&P I own. For me, my experiences have been the exact opposite. I shot Glocks in all three calibers, and thought their name given by a lot of knowledgeable gun people (They're crap, combat tupperware) was well given.

My M&P is far and away the more accurate gun to me.

Well that's a personal opinion based on the comfort of the grip in your hand. Many also feel this way. I happen to like the Glock grip because I shoot in advanced isosceles as opposed to Weaver so the extreme forward grip is conducive to my shooting style.

The remaining, and unadressed fact is that they are indeed very reliable and worth the price paid.

You should never buy a gun that does not fit well in your hand, so of course in your case the Glock would be a poor choice.

I still say wrap your hands around an HK P30 and you'll never look back... regardless of the price.

[unsigned]

I still say wrap your hands around an HK P30 and you'll never look back... regardless of the price.

Ding ding ding, we have a winnar! :D I've wanted one of those for a long time... But I need 1 more exotic (FN 5.7) and one more staple (S&W .357, 6in) in the collection before I'm going there.

[maybelooking]

A wise old man once told me.

"Chad, anything worth making is worth making out of steel."


Wilson Combat FTW


and if you arent wealthy, go Kimber.

I will own a Wilson some day.....but the money just isnt there right now.

[maybelooking]

Yes but there's a marked performance advantage between a corvette and a chevette.

The watch has a marked difference in movement

and the 6,000 tv also has a marked improvement in performance, same with audio equipment.

What performance advantage does a $2500 wilson combat 1911 have over a Sig P220 or even a $1500 custom 1911 by a diff manufacturer?

from someone who has put untold numbers of rounds down range, there is a definate marked improvement in performance just in my Kimbers over many other semis I have shot.

now with Wilsons, you are definately paying for name recognition, but there is NO DOUBT it will out perform a lot of other weapons out there with regards to reliability, and accuracy.

[nesikachad]

I'll tell you what you pay for. This isn't meant to sound confrontational. Just an education of sorts.

Its attention to detail, higher quality materials, and better fitting and machine work.

It's a grip safety that has a seamless transition to the backstrap on the grip. It's a trigger that doesn't feel like a fork drug over asphalt. It's machine work free of any surface inclusions. It's heat treatment of parts made from tool grade steels that are fully machined. Not cast, not sintered powder metal, and certainly not plastic or polymer. It's a barrel with a cut or button rifled bore, not hammer forgings. It's chamber work cut concentric to bore centerline with a chamber reamer made to minimum SAAMI specifications so that your brass doesn't get stretched six ways from Sunday. This means that for the reloader, his expensive Lapua Brass is going to have a longer service life. You get a crown that is cut with a single point tool and not with a piloted counter sink run on a cordless drill.

It's fine diamond point checkering that is actually done by hand on the grips and has points so sharp they'll leave marks in your palm, not cut with a laser that burns the wood and certainly not cast or injection molded to look like non skid tape.

A barrel that fits up to the front bushing with a minimal clearance when the slide is in battery so that the gun holds a consistent zero. Maybe its even carbide bushed so it lasts even longer and has lower friction.

Shake a 300 dollar gun, its liable to sound like a marble in a coffee can. Now shake a 2500 dollar gun.

People seem to act sometimes like "big" names became big names only through creative marketing. The custom gun industry, the TRUE custom gun industry is driven by a consumer group who are bunch of anally retentive sons a bitches. The kinds of folks that completely disassemble every component of a new custom rifle or pistol to examine every single part to ensure that its done right.

The kind of folks who only after buying several products eventually learn to trust that your work is done to the best that it can be.

I love every one of these folks because of it. They keep guys like me employed. The demand drives us to make the products, its not the other way around.

They pay real money because they have the appreciation for the work from those who have genuine love and dedication to what they do.

Some of this has become lost in gun ownership and this is why guns from major manufacturers continue to become cheaper and cheaper in construction. It costs Glock about thirty bucks to build one of their pistols. $30 bucks. All the parts are either injection molded, cast, or hammer forged. I'm betting it costs Wilson a little over half of what they retail for. All their parts are billet machined.

Lets do a comparison. I paid around $450 bucks for my 90mm billet TB made by Holley.

How many moving parts in this thing? Just one basically. A block of aluminum with a big hole in it. A cross drilled hole with a shaft that runs on two bearings. A couple seals, and a few other features machined in there too.

That's almost $500 bucks. It's at most a five to eight dollar block of aluminum with a steel shaft that might cost 50 cents and a gold irridite plated steel butterfly that probably costs about eighty cents. These are material costs.

Now factor in the machine work. I'm betting that Holley has about 175-200 bucks in each one of these things.

Now look at how many machined parts there are in a 1911 pistol. The heat treatment requirements, etc. . .

$2500 dollars is a bargain in my book for what you get. Think about all the fixturing, prototyping, programming, quality control steps, and final assembly work.

Take a long hard look at any main stream production grade gun with a 300-500 dollar price tag. How does the stock fit the action? How well does the grip safety blend to the back strap? How's the trigger pull? does it feed reliably? Does it feel good to the hand or shoulder? Does the floor metal fit the stock or does it look like an after thought? How good is the accuracy?

You do get what you pay for, whether or not you appreciate it or desire it is up to you. Sorry this got so long winded.

[Scurvy]

there's some really good information in there man and I appreciate that.

I can understand the need for that type of work when dealing with a long distance precision rifle. I personally don't see the need for the in a combat pistol.

But I think you said it best when you said, You do get what you pay for, whether or not you appreciate it or desire it is up to you.

[StormSigma]

Well that's a personal opinion based on the comfort of the grip in your hand. Many also feel this way. I happen to like the Glock grip because I shoot in advanced isosceles as opposed to Weaver so the extreme forward grip is conducive to my shooting style.

The remaining, and unadressed fact is that they are indeed very reliable and worth the price paid.

You should never buy a gun that does not fit well in your hand, so of course in your case the Glock would be a poor choice.

I still say wrap your hands around an HK P30 and you'll never look back... regardless of the price.

Fair enough. For me, the M&P was just better. Truth be told, I was hardcore Glock before I owned any guns because it's what you see on TV all the time, so I just assumed I'd get one too. First time I shot one, I didn't even hit the paper at 15 feet. Not once in the entire clip. Went back to the desk at the range, brought back an XD 9mm and put the entire clip through a three inch circle. I knew right then that Glocks weren't for me.

I may very well have an HK one day. I'm also going to have an XD or two, and more Smith & Wessons.

[StormSigma]

I'll tell you what you pay for. This isn't meant to sound confrontational. Just an education of sorts.

Its attention to detail, higher quality materials, and better fitting and machine work.

It's a grip safety that has a seamless transition to the backstrap on the grip. It's a trigger that doesn't feel like a fork drug over asphalt. It's machine work free of any surface inclusions. It's heat treatment of parts made from tool grade steels that are fully machined. Not cast, not sintered powder metal, and certainly not plastic or polymer. It's a barrel with a cut or button rifled bore, not hammer forgings. It's chamber work cut concentric to bore centerline with a chamber reamer made to minimum SAAMI specifications so that your brass doesn't get stretched six ways from Sunday. This means that for the reloader, his expensive Lapua Brass is going to have a longer service life. You get a crown that is cut with a single point tool and not with a piloted counter sink run on a cordless drill.

It's fine diamond point checkering that is actually done by hand on the grips and has points so sharp they'll leave marks in your palm, not cut with a laser that burns the wood and certainly not cast or injection molded to look like non skid tape.

A barrel that fits up to the front bushing with a minimal clearance when the slide is in battery so that the gun holds a consistent zero. Maybe its even carbide bushed so it lasts even longer and has lower friction.

Shake a 300 dollar gun, its liable to sound like a marble in a coffee can. Now shake a 2500 dollar gun.

People seem to act sometimes like "big" names became big names only through creative marketing. The custom gun industry, the TRUE custom gun industry is driven by a consumer group who are bunch of anally retentive sons a bitches. The kinds of folks that completely disassemble every component of a new custom rifle or pistol to examine every single part to ensure that its done right.

The kind of folks who only after buying several products eventually learn to trust that your work is done to the best that it can be.

I love every one of these folks because of it. They keep guys like me employed. The demand drives us to make the products, its not the other way around.

They pay real money because they have the appreciation for the work from those who have genuine love and dedication to what they do.

Some of this has become lost in gun ownership and this is why guns from major manufacturers continue to become cheaper and cheaper in construction. It costs Glock about thirty bucks to build one of their pistols. $30 bucks. All the parts are either injection molded, cast, or hammer forged. I'm betting it costs Wilson a little over half of what they retail for. All their parts are billet machined.

Lets do a comparison. I paid around $450 bucks for my 90mm billet TB made by Holley.

How many moving parts in this thing? Just one basically. A block of aluminum with a big hole in it. A cross drilled hole with a shaft that runs on two bearings. A couple seals, and a few other features machined in there too.

That's almost $500 bucks. It's at most a five to eight dollar block of aluminum with a steel shaft that might cost 50 cents and a gold irridite plated steel butterfly that probably costs about eighty cents. These are material costs.

Now factor in the machine work. I'm betting that Holley has about 175-200 bucks in each one of these things.

Now look at how many machined parts there are in a 1911 pistol. The heat treatment requirements, etc. . .

$2500 dollars is a bargain in my book for what you get. Think about all the fixturing, prototyping, programming, quality control steps, and final assembly work.

Take a long hard look at any main stream production grade gun with a 300-500 dollar price tag. How does the stock fit the action? How well does the grip safety blend to the back strap? How's the trigger pull? does it feed reliably? Does it feel good to the hand or shoulder? Does the floor metal fit the stock or does it look like an after thought? How good is the accuracy?

You do get what you pay for, whether or not you appreciate it or desire it is up to you. Sorry this got so long winded.

I like this post. I aspire to own a Kimber or two one day, I think they are beautiful pistols. If I ever get hardcore into guns, I may pay out for a Wilson one day. But then again, your whole comparison is just like cars. For 99% of the people out there, a regular car is good enough. For some of those of us who are enthusiasts, a $28k Pontiac is good enough. But for some few people in the world, only a Ferrari will do. Same with guns apparently. I can appreciate and respect that.

[unsigned]

Not once in the entire clip.

Magazine. :banghead:

[StormSigma]

Magazine. :banghead:

Pardon me, there, chief. Magazine. Feel better?

When I think magazine, I think the mag in an assault rifle. When I think of a pistol's magazine, I think clip. Simple.

[speeddemon]

magazine,clip,stripper clip,charger......name them anything you want lol

[Bandit]

I'll tell you what you pay for. This isn't meant to sound confrontational. Just an education of sorts.

Its attention to detail, higher quality materials, and better fitting and machine work.

It's a grip safety that has a seamless transition to the backstrap on the grip. It's a trigger that doesn't feel like a fork drug over asphalt. It's machine work free of any surface inclusions. It's heat treatment of parts made from tool grade steels that are fully machined. Not cast, not sintered powder metal, and certainly not plastic or polymer. It's a barrel with a cut or button rifled bore, not hammer forgings. It's chamber work cut concentric to bore centerline with a chamber reamer made to minimum SAAMI specifications so that your brass doesn't get stretched six ways from Sunday. This means that for the reloader, his expensive Lapua Brass is going to have a longer service life. You get a crown that is cut with a single point tool and not with a piloted counter sink run on a cordless drill.

It's fine diamond point checkering that is actually done by hand on the grips and has points so sharp they'll leave marks in your palm, not cut with a laser that burns the wood and certainly not cast or injection molded to look like non skid tape.

A barrel that fits up to the front bushing with a minimal clearance when the slide is in battery so that the gun holds a consistent zero. Maybe its even carbide bushed so it lasts even longer and has lower friction.

Shake a 300 dollar gun, its liable to sound like a marble in a coffee can. Now shake a 2500 dollar gun.

People seem to act sometimes like "big" names became big names only through creative marketing. The custom gun industry, the TRUE custom gun industry is driven by a consumer group who are bunch of anally retentive sons a bitches. The kinds of folks that completely disassemble every component of a new custom rifle or pistol to examine every single part to ensure that its done right.

The kind of folks who only after buying several products eventually learn to trust that your work is done to the best that it can be.

I love every one of these folks because of it. They keep guys like me employed. The demand drives us to make the products, its not the other way around.

They pay real money because they have the appreciation for the work from those who have genuine love and dedication to what they do.

Some of this has become lost in gun ownership and this is why guns from major manufacturers continue to become cheaper and cheaper in construction. It costs Glock about thirty bucks to build one of their pistols. $30 bucks. All the parts are either injection molded, cast, or hammer forged. I'm betting it costs Wilson a little over half of what they retail for. All their parts are billet machined.

Lets do a comparison. I paid around $450 bucks for my 90mm billet TB made by Holley.

How many moving parts in this thing? Just one basically. A block of aluminum with a big hole in it. A cross drilled hole with a shaft that runs on two bearings. A couple seals, and a few other features machined in there too.

That's almost $500 bucks. It's at most a five to eight dollar block of aluminum with a steel shaft that might cost 50 cents and a gold irridite plated steel butterfly that probably costs about eighty cents. These are material costs.

Now factor in the machine work. I'm betting that Holley has about 175-200 bucks in each one of these things.

Now look at how many machined parts there are in a 1911 pistol. The heat treatment requirements, etc. . .

$2500 dollars is a bargain in my book for what you get. Think about all the fixturing, prototyping, programming, quality control steps, and final assembly work.

Take a long hard look at any main stream production grade gun with a 300-500 dollar price tag. How does the stock fit the action? How well does the grip safety blend to the back strap? How's the trigger pull? does it feed reliably? Does it feel good to the hand or shoulder? Does the floor metal fit the stock or does it look like an after thought? How good is the accuracy?

You do get what you pay for, whether or not you appreciate it or desire it is up to you. Sorry this got so long winded.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2857/b16yq7.jpg



All kidding aside, that was a fantastic post.

[Scurvy]

Shake a 300 dollar gun, its liable to sound like a marble in a coffee can. Now shake a 2500 dollar gun.


I just tried this test because it interested me.

My 2002 made USP 45 compact rattled some

My XD made a very very faint clicking noise

My Sig makes not a sound

None of these had mags in them

[nesikachad]

Ok, stripper clips and magazines:

Photo one here shows a stripper clip loaded up with M855 5.56mm NATO Ball ammunition (223 Remington), a speed loader, and a standard 30 round magazine for an M-16 type rifle.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ IMG_0160.jpg

Here in photo two the whole assembly is put together. You just push with your thumb and the cartridges feed down the stripper clip into the magazine which is held in place by the speed loader. There is a bit of technique to it, but it does work pretty well for the most part.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/nesikachad/ IMG_0163.jpg

That's it. No real mystery.

[Ronin GTO]

I'll tell you what you pay for. This isn't meant to sound confrontational. Just an education of sorts.

Its attention to detail, higher quality materials, and better fitting and machine work.

It's a grip safety that has a seamless transition to the backstrap on the grip. It's a trigger that doesn't feel like a fork drug over asphalt. It's machine work free of any surface inclusions. It's heat treatment of parts made from tool grade steels that are fully machined. Not cast, not sintered powder metal, and certainly not plastic or polymer. It's a barrel with a cut or button rifled bore, not hammer forgings. It's chamber work cut concentric to bore centerline with a chamber reamer made to minimum SAAMI specifications so that your brass doesn't get stretched six ways from Sunday. This means that for the reloader, his expensive Lapua Brass is going to have a longer service life. You get a crown that is cut with a single point tool and not with a piloted counter sink run on a cordless drill.

It's fine diamond point checkering that is actually done by hand on the grips and has points so sharp they'll leave marks in your palm, not cut with a laser that burns the wood and certainly not cast or injection molded to look like non skid tape.

A barrel that fits up to the front bushing with a minimal clearance when the slide is in battery so that the gun holds a consistent zero. Maybe its even carbide bushed so it lasts even longer and has lower friction.

Shake a 300 dollar gun, its liable to sound like a marble in a coffee can. Now shake a 2500 dollar gun.

People seem to act sometimes like "big" names became big names only through creative marketing. The custom gun industry, the TRUE custom gun industry is driven by a consumer group who are bunch of anally retentive sons a bitches. The kinds of folks that completely disassemble every component of a new custom rifle or pistol to examine every single part to ensure that its done right.

The kind of folks who only after buying several products eventually learn to trust that your work is done to the best that it can be.

I love every one of these folks because of it. They keep guys like me employed. The demand drives us to make the products, its not the other way around.

They pay real money because they have the appreciation for the work from those who have genuine love and dedication to what they do.

Some of this has become lost in gun ownership and this is why guns from major manufacturers continue to become cheaper and cheaper in construction. It costs Glock about thirty bucks to build one of their pistols. $30 bucks. All the parts are either injection molded, cast, or hammer forged. I'm betting it costs Wilson a little over half of what they retail for. All their parts are billet machined.

Lets do a comparison. I paid around $450 bucks for my 90mm billet TB made by Holley.

How many moving parts in this thing? Just one basically. A block of aluminum with a big hole in it. A cross drilled hole with a shaft that runs on two bearings. A couple seals, and a few other features machined in there too.

That's almost $500 bucks. It's at most a five to eight dollar block of aluminum with a steel shaft that might cost 50 cents and a gold irridite plated steel butterfly that probably costs about eighty cents. These are material costs.

Now factor in the machine work. I'm betting that Holley has about 175-200 bucks in each one of these things.

Now look at how many machined parts there are in a 1911 pistol. The heat treatment requirements, etc. . .

$2500 dollars is a bargain in my book for what you get. Think about all the fixturing, prototyping, programming, quality control steps, and final assembly work.

Take a long hard look at any main stream production grade gun with a 300-500 dollar price tag. How does the stock fit the action? How well does the grip safety blend to the back strap? How's the trigger pull? does it feed reliably? Does it feel good to the hand or shoulder? Does the floor metal fit the stock or does it look like an after thought? How good is the accuracy?

You do get what you pay for, whether or not you appreciate it or desire it is up to you. Sorry this got so long winded.

I agree with you on this. As you said before, "You get what you pay for". Many times people buy a weapon with a certain use in mind...self-defense or home defense. What they don't think about is reliability. Sure there are a lot of weapons out there that don't cost that much and, for the average user, seem okay for a self-defense purpose. But if I were going to put my life on the line (which is what someone does when they purchase a weapon for personal protection), I want to make sure that the chance of failure is going to be almost nil.

If you use a weapon on a daily basis as part of your job, it's easy to get a feel for how it will work in a real world situation. Unfortunately most people don't fire their weapons that often, keeping it packed away for that proverbial "rainy day". It seems crazy to me then that you wouldn't want to have a weapon that is almost guaranteed to work, even after sitting around not having been fired. An emergency situation is not the time to find out you chose poorly when you picked out your handgun. That extra money spent is worth it to me, if for no other reason than just the piece of mind it offers. :oldfogey:

[nesikachad]

Home defense + reliability ='s REVOLVER

[Ronin GTO]

Home defense + reliability ='s REVOLVER

+1 .357 is my choice :yumyum:

[SLEEPR]

I'll preface this by saying, in no way do I claim the expertise or experience already offered in here. My experience was as a LEO. I trained regularly with the SWAT Team because as a Detective I entered with them on search warrants and such. I carried Glocks. Never once did I ever have an issue with any of them that would cause me to fear putting my life on the line with them. By far, my favorite thing about them was interchangeability of magazines. Our SOP called for 40 S&W. So when in uniform, I carried a model 22 (full size) with a TAC light. When I was plain-clothed, I carried a 27 (sub-compact), either on my hip or concealed at my ankle. When I rigged up for entry, I would transfer my 22 over to my drop holster, and my 27 would go onto the front of my TAC vest. And ALL my extra magazines were high capacity LE. If I had to drop my full size 22, I would use the 27 in my vest. All my high capacity mags for my 22 fit my 27. So mo matter what the situation, I only had to train myself to pull reload mags from the same locations regardless of which gun I was using (very important to simplify things for when you are acting under an adrenalin dump). Just my 2 cents.

Oh, and some guys carried a 23 (compact), but I didn't out of personal preference.

[maxcm96]

I work in a gun store part time and answer this question 10 times a week. People always go cheap and buy the Sigma. It is also the number one used trade in. That is all you need to know.

[wolfdogs]

+1 .357 is my choice :yumyum:

bad choice for indoors. because of the power/velocity of the bullet, it can penetrate the walls and enter a room you dont want the round to enter if you miss your target....

here's a pretty good write up on home defense handguns:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob54.html

and this one is better, at the end...he does mention the .357... Im just saying what I said because ive heard it from so many law enforcement friends over the years... i use a .45 indoors.

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBVie wItem.asp?ID=3195

[Bandit]

+1 .357 is my choice :yumyum:

bad choice for indoors. because of the power/velocity of the bullet, it can penetrate the walls and enter a room you dont want the round to enter if you miss your target....

here's a pretty good write up on home defense handguns:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob54.html

and this one is better, at the end...he does mention the .357... Im just saying what I said because ive heard it from so many law enforcement friends over the years... i use a .45 indoors.

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBVie wItem.asp?ID=3195


Yup. I keep a shotgun for primary home defense with a .45 as a secondary backup with lower velocity loads and Magsafe ammo.


I work in a gun store part time and answer this question 10 times a week. People always go cheap and buy the Sigma. It is also the number one used trade in. That is all you need to know.

I think that sums up the Sigma quite well.

[StormSigma]

Instead of the Sigma, I may go back today to check out an older eighties S&W .357 revolver they have used for three hundred bucks. Simple, solid, reliable. Even has worn wood handlegrips, so should be pretty sweet.

[Bandit]

Nothing more reliable than a wheelgun!

[Scurvy]

Nothing more reliable than a wheelgun!

I'm taking a class in firearms and toolmark identification and my professor would disagree with you. At least he did until he caught me glaring at him and he corrected himself. HAHHAHA

He admits he's not a "gun person". Some days I feel like standing up and teaching

[nesikachad]

Toolmark identification?

What is that exactly?

[ruski]

Pardon me, there, chief. Magazine. Feel better?

When I think magazine, I think the mag in an assault rifle. When I think of a pistol's magazine, I think clip. Simple.

here is a magazine

http://ef.1939-1945.net/scans/b002_008.jpg

[bluels1goat]

aimsurplus.com has used 9mm sig that were used by the german police for under 300 and the reliability that sig has it wouldnt be a bad idea to look into those either?

[Ronin GTO]

bad choice for indoors. because of the power/velocity of the bullet, it can penetrate the walls and enter a room you dont want the round to enter if you miss your target....

here's a pretty good write up on home defense handguns:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob54.html

and this one is better, at the end...he does mention the .357... Im just saying what I said because ive heard it from so many law enforcement friends over the years... i use a .45 indoors.

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBVie wItem.asp?ID=3195

I agree that a .357 may not be the best choice for home defense because of penetration but, then again, I'm not really sure any weapon that has some sort of stopping power is going to be ideal. Especially the way homes and apartments are made now days. I love .45's, and own 2 of them myself. Still, with todays buildings the way they are, I'm pretty sure that I .45 will punch through most modern walls like toilet paper.

My main reason for using my .357 is it's the weapon I carry on a regular basis. I've become more comfortable carrying it instead of the bulky .45 or Glock 17 that I own. Also factor in that I can use .38 rounds as well as .357 Magnums and it gives me a good, all around weapon. In the end I think that my comfort level will always be the deciding factor. :oldfogey: