GTO Fitment "Without the Voodoo" - Working on LTW 18" Mesh, 17" 5-Spoke, GTO-Specific

[Gears for Brains]

"Voodoo" defined:

...fender rolling/drag bags/springs/shocks/swaybar/your first born as a sacrifice...

This is Phase 2 of a project to get some good quality, staggered wheels made with fitments that are actaully RIGHT for the GTO. Phase 1 was my previous thread "Interested in super-lightweight 5-spokes? Staggered? Help make it happen!!" There have been some new developments that make it appropriate to start a new thread. Some of this will be familiar if you've looked at the previous thread, but there are lots of updated details.

I've got a contact who's willing to consider ordering a special batch of LTW wheels, customized to fit the GTO - IF we can show enough interest to justify the quantity he has to commit to. These are very lightweight AND strong wheels. They start with a low-pressure casting and then use the flow-forming process on the barrel section. This is a rolling/spinning/cold-working process that refines the grain structure and allows very thin sections for light weight, with mechanical properties approaching those of forged wheels - at a very reasonable price.

LTW Motorsports EmPower (think "M" Power, they're going after the BMW Market, there's even a little recess for the M logo), silver/machined lip (upper picture) and anthracite/machined lip (lower):
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=77191&d=1203613216
http://www.vorshlag.com/images/catalog/products/LT W-EP-wheels-02.jpg

LTW-5, silver (upper image) and anthracite (lower):
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=76639&d=1202944080
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=76900&d=1203295821

These wheels are currently made for BMW's, so they're already set up for our 5x120 bolt pattern. They are TUV and VIA certified for 1560# a wheel, so there's plenty of capacity for our heavier cars, and they seem to be well regarded on the BMW forums. The amount of customization will depend somewhat on how much demand we show, but here's what I think is possible:

EmPower - silver/machined lip or anthracite/machined lip:
18x8.5, 5x120, 40ET, ~18.3#, $319; maybe BMW bore with hubrings, maybe GTO-specific
18x9.5, 5x120, 52ET probable but not yet guaranteed, 20.8#, $339; custom GTO hub bore

LTW-5 - silver, anthracite, black/machined lip:
17x8, 5x120, 40ET, 15.9#, $249; maybe BMW bore with hubrings, maybe GTO-specific
17x9, 5x120, 52ET probable but not yet guaranteed, 16.4#, $259; custom GTO hub bore
(could end up being 17x8.5 & 17x9.5 with similar offsets & pricing)
~~~ OR ~~~
18x8.5, 5x120, 40ET, 17.6#, $349; maybe BMW bore with hubrings, maybe GTO-specific
18x9.5, 5x120, 52ET probable but not yet guaranteed, 18.3#, $359; custom GTO hub bore
(could end up being 18x9 & 18x10 with similar pricing, offsets would have to be just perfect)

With our small user base, we won't be able to get all three of these, so I'm doing a poll to measure demand and help convince my distributor contact to move ahead with a special order for the most popular setup. If you're interested in these wheels, please post your preferred design (EmPower or LTW-5), diameter (for the LTW-5 anyway) and finish (as noted above, different choices for EmPower versus LTW-5), when you would be interested (now, next month, next year, after the next bank heist), plus any comments or questions. This poll is a little different than the way I phrased it last time, and I hope this will give a better picture of the demand. I'll send a link to my contact so he can determine if this is a viable piece of business. Let's give him lots of encouragement to take the plunge on this! If you have a friend who'd be interested in this deal, give a call, send a text, send an email, send smoke signals by burning out, help spread the word...

Anthracite/machined lip EmPower Photoshopped onto my car, attempted to scaled as 18's, may have gone slightly overboard:
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=77758&d=1204243086

Black/machined lip LTW-5 photochop, scaled as 17's:
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=76637&d=1202944048

Silver 17" LTW-5 rendering:
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=76638&d=1202944067

I have no financial stake in this deal, but I have spent a considerable amount of time researching wheels, and I have an engineering/manufacturing background with a good feel for what would be feasible here. I found these wheels while researching my upcoming set of dedicated autocross wheels & tires...I think any of these would make great track day wheels. I like the idea of 8.5" front 9.5" rear, because you can legitimately run 255's on 8.5" width. My car currently has 255/40-17 on 17x9 +42 front and 275/40-17 on 17x9.8 +52 rear, as shown in the signature. I'd like to see more people running more front tire than the typical 245, with this heavy of a car, especially if you like curves and/or hard braking. 255/35-18 & 275/35-18 would be a real possibility with these wheels. The signature has fairly complete suspension details too - note the lowering springs. The one thing I couldn't squeeze in there was the 3/32" slotting of the strut bracket holes - this moved the strut maybe 2mm inboard at the tire sidewall height, helpful but not huge.

LTW Motorsports website - finishes & flow forming info:
http://www.ltwmotorsports.com/products.html
They do currently make a 17x8.5 5x120 40ET LTW-5 with BMW hub bore that could probably be used all-around. The other current LTW-5 sizes (17x9 41ET, 18x9 41ET, 18x10 43ET) just aren't right for us. And they currently make an 18x8.5 5x120 40ET EmPower with BMW hub bore that could likewise be used all-around, but the other current EmPower (18x9.5 43ET) again is just not right for us. I took measurements on a 17x9 41ET LTW-5 to see if the mounting pad could simply be machined down, but the lugnut seats are sunk in too deeply - we need these made correctly at the factory. There is, however, plenty of stock on the casting to do what we need to do for 52ET.

BBS also uses flow forming:
http://www.bbs-usa.com/index.php?id=330

So does Enkei, although they call it "M.A.T Process":
http://www.enkei.com/technology.html

OK, here's the "box score" section, including everyone from the original thread. If you originally voted for the LTW-5 and like the EmPower better, just post again and I will change your vote. If I mess up your preferences, post up again and I'll fix it. Or send a PM.

UPDATED 4/24/2008 ~ Note: unless flagged as "rotatable" or "all-around" these people are looking for staggered setups

LTW-5 interested parties:
batboy, 17", black/machined (silver 2nd choice) - IF AVAILABLE BY END OF MARCH
SpeedGTO, 18", black/machined, wants them now
SammyGTO, 17" rears only for drag setup, no preference on finish, wants them now
QuicksilverLS2, 17" or 18", no preference on finish, next year when current tires are toast
RealityCheck, 17", silver, wants them now
FastEddy, 18x9.5 all-around {seriously-modified coilover front suspension} no preference on finish, spring '08
Wise3, 17" preferred (18" 2nd choice), rotatable preferred, silver preferred (anthracite 2nd choice), wants them now
Floridaman, 17", black/machined preferred, silver OK, wants them now
ELTsanwich, 18", silver, wants them now
MikeB, 18" preferred (17" second choice), anthracite, wants them now
MuhThugga, 17", silver, wants them now
yellowjacketgoat, 17", no preference on finish, wants them now
PBANDPKGTO, 18", anthracite - IF AVAILABLE BY 4/26
GoToOhio, 18", silver, wants them now, "extremely interested"

EmPower interested parties:
JasperJones, anthracite/macined, wants them now
zx12guy, anthracite/macined, wants them now
atomicwedgy, anthracite/macined, wants them now
eleven011, silver/macined, wants them ~July/August
Kylan, silver/macined, wants them now

Either LTW-5 or EmPower, interested parties who just want some #@%&$! light weight wheels:
Whynot, prefers 17" LTW-5 but EmPower OK too, anthracite, wants them now
Gears for Brains, prefers EmPower (anthracite/machined) but LTW-5 OK too (black/machined), wants them now
ugapug, 18", either design, anthracite, wants them now
TrackAddict, either design, prefers a rotatable setup, silver, wants them now
Goat Cheese, 18", either design, anthracite or black/machined, wants them now
Safteykiller, 18", either design, anthracite - IF AVAILABLE BY JUNE/JULY
6.0 GTO, 18", either design, silver, wants them by spring '08

[vqmotoring]

Good looking wheels.

thanks,
www.vqmotoring.com
(877)-877-9420

[Jasper Jones]

Glad to see you got the second thread started.

Here is my preference again: EmPower, staggered 18's, anthracite with machined lip.

Thanks!
-Jason

[Whynot]

I prefer the LTW-5's in 17 inch, but I like the EM powers as well. I would take either one if they fit with "no voodoo". I like the anthracite. I am ready whenever.

[FastEddy]

Of those three skip the 17's. Most people who buy after market are going to want 18's.

I like the look of the LTW-5, but what are those 5 extra holes on them? I could sure do without those.

"18x9.5, 5x120, 52ET probable but not yet guaranteed, 18.3#, $359; custom GTO hub bore"

These sound great to me! I think my 18' TSW Nogaros weigh 26#. Does that sound right?

Pat

[purplenurple]

Good luck with this. I tried something like this before, but with the CSL replicas. They couldnt get us an offset greater than 48, so it fell through.

[Gears for Brains]

Good looking wheels.

thanks,
www.vqmotoring.com
(877)-877-9420

vqmotoring - a class act, complimenting the potential future competition! Thanks.

Glad to see you got the second thread started.

Here is my preference again: EmPower, staggered 18's, anthracite with machined lip.

Thanks!
-Jason

On the list for EmPowers...

I prefer the LTW-5's in 17 inch, but I like the EM powers as well. I would take either one if they fit with "no voodoo". I like the anthracite. I am ready whenever.

On the list for either design, with preference noted.

Of those three skip the 17's. Most people who buy after market are going to want 18's.

I like the look of the LTW-5, but what are those 5 extra holes on them? I could sure do without those.

"18x9.5, 5x120, 52ET probable but not yet guaranteed, 18.3#, $359; custom GTO hub bore"

These sound great to me! I think my 18' TSW Nogaros weigh 26#. Does that sound right?

Pat

Thanks for your input. My distributor would definitely be more comfortable doing this with 18's, he's in this business and that's where the general market demand is. If this deal pans out, maybe we'll be able to add a second design or diameter later.

I believe the extra five holes serve to drain water out from the hub (for the hole that ends up closest to the top when you park). It seems to be a German or maybe European thing. My BBS wheels have the same thing. If this is an issue for anyone else, post up. I don't want to ask for more changes than I have to, but if everyone dislikes these holes, I can ask. They appear to be drilled, so it may be possible to skip them.

I thought that Nogaro's were lighter. I almost sent you a PM a couple weeks ago, asking if you could weigh one of your wheel & tire assemblies! (then back out the wheel weight by using the published tire weight)

Oh, yeah - are you leaning toward the EmPower? I'm assuming that you'd want 9.5 all-around, is that correct?

[wise3]

Repeating myself from the previous thread,
I'd be interested in the LTW-5's in silver, preferably 17's.
Looking at the anthracite pic above, I would also consider them in anthracite

[ugapug5150]

Anthracite in either wheel would be fine.

[Gears for Brains]

Repeating myself from the previous thread,
I'd be interested in the LTW-5's in silver, preferably 17's.
Looking at the anthracite pic above, I would also consider them in anthracite

Anthracite in either wheel would be fine.

Thanks for clarifying. Box Score updated in post #1.

[SpeedGTO]

SpeedGTO, 18", no preference on finish, wants them now

black/machined lip!!! :D

[axles of evil]

5 spokers arent thick enough spokes for my liking. but the mesh is nice.

[b4z]

Wish they offered a 8" wide 18" with 40-42mm offset.

[Gears for Brains]

black/machined lip!!! :D

Updated. When I did the black/machined chop, I was thinking to myself "these could be my race wheels"...then the EmPower option came along...

5 spokers arent thick enough spokes for my liking. but the mesh is nice.

Yes the LTW-5 is a very open design, would be great for showing off a BBK, good for 05/06 cars, maybe not so good for '04's. See BMW gallery images below to get a better idea.

Wish they offered a 8" wide 18" with 40-42mm offset.

They do currently make EmPower in an 18x8.5 5x120 40ET with BMW hub bore, would that be close enough? The extra half-inch of wheel width would expand your tire section width by ~0.2" total, or about 2.5mm per side.

================================================== =========================================

Here are some gallery images to give a better idea of what these wheels really look like. No GTO's, but no Photoshop either.

http://www.dforcewheels.com/g2.jpg

http://www.dforcewheels.com/g4.jpg

This guy's running some serious camber...
http://www.dforcewheels.com/g3.jpg

http://www.vorshlag.com/images/catalog/products/LT W5_shadowchrome_m3_03.jpg

http://www.vorshlag.com/images/catalog/products/LT W-EP-wheels-04.jpg

http://www.vorshlag.com/images/catalog/products/LT W-EP-wheels-03.jpg

[zx12guy]

staggered empower 18s anthracite/machined lip. would buy them now

[DAFFYDRUNK]

Both wheels are cool looking. Light weight is plus. $360 a wheel would be a deal breaker for alot of people though.

I still think a 9.5" in a 52 offset is pushing the width without modding the fenders if you wanna run 275s. In the end it will fit about like a 9" rim with a 48 mm offset. I've seen this on my dad's car and while it seems to be rub free, it's damn close. I'm sure I could make his car rub if I really tried. The trick would probably be a good bump in a turn as the body's already rolling over. I think the GTO ideal would be a 9.0" rim with a ~52 offset.

[Gears for Brains]

staggered empower 18s anthracite/machined lip. would buy them now

On the list for EmPowers. One person closer to making this happen!

Both wheels are cool looking. Light weight is plus. $360 a wheel would be a deal breaker for alot of people though.

I still think a 9.5" in a 52 offset is pushing the width without modding the fenders if you wanna run 275s. In the end it will fit about like a 9" rim with a 48 mm offset. I've seen this on my dad's car and while it seems to be rub free, it's damn close. I'm sure I could make his car rub if I really tried. The trick would probably be a good bump in a turn as the body's already rolling over. I think the GTO ideal would be a 9.0" rim with a ~52 offset.

Thanks for your input, DAFFYDRUNK. I went back and re-read your post from the original thread, too.

Regarding prices: these wheels, with the flow-forming technology, are not really going to be able to compete with conventional cast wheels on price. Conventional cast are not going to be able to compete with flow-formed wheels on weight. I believe these wheels are at a good price point for what they offer - high strength & low weight - almost forged wheel properties without the full SSR/BBS pricetag. The LTW's are priced fairly competitively with TR Motorsports and Enkei flow-formed wheels. I'm hoping there'll be enough people willing to pay the (modest) premium for lightweight wheels...this poll will find out one way or another.

Regarding fitment: I basically agree with your statement about 9" 48ET (I'd say 49.5ET but that's splitting hairs). I'm trying to work this deal around wheels that LTW has already tooled (i.e. they have castings and the flow-forming process already worked out) to keep it a relatively simple job of just some different machining in the hub area. With our small user base, there just isn't enough demand for them to develop a new size (new casting and/or new rim-rolling parameters). The 18" LTW-5 and EmPower haven't been made any smaller than 18x8.5 that I know of, and I don't think 8.5" & 9" would go over too well as a staggered fitment.

From your earlier thread, it sounds like you want 18's...if 17's were an option, the LTW-5 could meet both your price and fitment targets.

[FastEddy]

I thought that Nogaro's were lighter. I almost sent you a PM a couple weeks ago, asking if you could weigh one of your wheel & tire assemblies! (then back out the wheel weight by using the published tire weight)

Oh, yeah - are you leaning toward the EmPower? I'm assuming that you'd want 9.5 all-around, is that correct?

My 265's with 9' nogaro's weigh 53 pounds. The tire is supposed to weigh 27 pounds, which leaves the rim at 26. That seems like too much to me, granted my bathroom scale may not be that accurate for this. I thought these rims were lighter than that.

Yes, I would look at 9.5's all around after this season.

Pat

[atomicwedgy]

em power, anthr

[Gears for Brains]

My 265's with 9' nogaro's weigh 53 pounds. The tire is supposed to weigh 27 pounds, which leaves the rim at 26. That seems like too much to me, granted my bathroom scale may not be that accurate for this. I thought these rims were lighter than that.

Yes, I would look at 9.5's all around after this season.

Pat

Thanks for weighing those. 26# is a reasonable number for a cast 18x9, many are even heavier. A long time ago, someone posted that the 18x8 Nogaro was 22#, but that always seemed kinda low. For comparison, the ASA AR-1, one of the lighter reasonably-priced cast wheels, is shown on Tire Rack as 24.0# for 18x8 and 22.9# for 18x9 (which seems backwards - wider wheel is lighter?).

I realized from post #5 you're looking at the 5-spoke...on the list for 18x9.5 qty.4

em power, anthr

On the list for antracite EmPowers. Thanks for your interest, atomicwedgy!

[DAFFYDRUNK]

... For comparison, the ASA AR-1, one of the lighter reasonably-priced cast wheels, is shown on Tire Rack as 24.0# for 18x8 and 22.9# for 18x9 (which seems backwards - wider wheel is lighter?).

I noticed that too. I wonder if they got the # numbers mixed up. Speaking of which, that might be an idea. Take the 45ET 18x9 AR-1 and maybe shave 3mm off of those? Add the cost of the shaving, hub rings and add $30-50 or so per wheel for profit. Might be way to make a little money off the GTO crowd.

[Gears for Brains]

I noticed that too. I wonder if they got the # numbers mixed up. Speaking of which, that might be an idea. Take the 45ET 18x9 AR-1 and maybe shave 3mm off of those? Add the cost of the shaving, hub rings and add $30-50 or so per wheel for profit. Might be way to make a little money off the GTO crowd.

That's one of the wheels I've seriously looked at for my autocross setup...possible backup plan if the LTW deal doesn't pan out. But I'd want to check the thickness through the hub section before banking on it. You may recall from the previous LTW thread how they turned out to be 1mm thinner thru the lugnut hole than a stock 17 (if they were thicker then yeah, shave them down by that much). Here's a link for anyone who might be interested in checking that when thinking about machining to increase offset:
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2211 19

There were several other good discussions in that thread: benefits of low weight, sprung mass vs. unsprung mass vs. rotating mass, durability, etc...for anyone who may have missed it the first time around...

[Gears for Brains]

Well shoot guys, it looks like the amount of "new recruits" may be tapering off. So far we have 15 people, with various preferences on design, diameter, and finish (interestingly, it's about an even split between 17's and 18's). However, I don't think we're there yet as far as headcount required to make this happen. I will call my contact later this week to check in, but a larger number would sure help make the case. If you know someone who's looking for lightweight wheels, please help out and pass the word.

[Gears for Brains]

Here's one more gallery image of the EmPower - I just haven't been able to find as much on this one (it is the newer design):
http://www.vorshlag.com/images/catalog/products/LT W-EP-wheels-05.jpg

[Gears for Brains]

Just got off the phone with my distributor contact (Jeff)...he's spoken with the owner of LTW (Bob) about this a couple times, and was going to call him again as soon as we got off the phone. Bob has been checking out this thread, reading people's comments - sounds like he's getting more interested in the GTO market. They are considering doing GTO-specific wheels for us, and they've been bouncing some ideas around. I started this "feeler" thread with a lot of options: LTW-5 vs EmPower, 17" vs 18", silver vs anthracite vs black, etc. All these options will have to be boiled down to one defined setup for the first batch of wheels. There may be some more-focused questions coming, along the lines of "we're thinking about doing the LTW-5 in 18x8.5/18x9.5, would you buy them with the silver finish or anthracite?" so stay tuned. I'm not saying that's what the choice would be, but something like that - it needs to be narrowed down from the current 8 options (EmPower x2 finishes, 17" 5-spoke x3, 18" 5-spoke x3) to the setup that has the most general appeal. From talking with Jeff, it sounds like silver 18's would have the broadest appeal for his customers. GTO enthusiats may end up having a different preference..the good part is the manufacturer & distributor are looking for our input!

Until I have something more specific, continue to weigh in with your preferred setup per the options laid out in post #1.

One other thing Jeff asked about was how much interest there was in "all-around" setups. It seems to me that people on the forum are mostly interested in staggered setups, but if you'd be interested in a rotatable setup, please post up. The 17x8.5 +40 LTW-5 and 18x8.5 +40 EmPower are viable now, all you'd need is hubrings.

Bob, Jeff, thank you very much for considering the GTO.

[wise3]

for what it's worth, I'd prefer rotatable.

When you say "The 17x8.5 +40 LTW-5 and 18x8.5 +40 EmPower are viable now, all you'd need is hubrings," do you mean I could buy and install a set of 4 silver 17x8.5 +40 LTW-5's now? (recognizing that I might have to find someone to make the hubrings).
Or that they are the most likely candidates based on response to date?
Thanks!

[DAFFYDRUNK]

Something that is rotatable will not fly because what people really want is a mindless way to put 275s on the rear. No way to do anything with 275 all around on a GTO. Even if there was, it would still be considered "staggered" because the offsets would have to be totally different. Like I'll always say, 8.0" front 9.0" rear. Ideal would be around 42mm offset front and 52mm offset rear. 245 front and 275 rear. At a reasonable price point I don't see that ever happening unfortunately.

[Goatboy4056]

im not crazy about mesh but in that first picture with them on the car i liked very much

[wise3]

Daffy, you're probably right and I'm probably in the minority, at least on this forum. But personally I feel the car already has pretty good front/rear balance in terms of road manners (especially with suspension upgrades). And I don't drag race myself.
So I'd rather have 4 rotatable wheels. In fact, given a limited-run-of-wheels situation, I'd really rather buy 5 identical wheels. I truly appreciate Gears' time and effort toward making this happen for us, and Jeff's and Bob's receptiveness. But I'd really like a spare wheel; if the shop or a large pothole wipes out a wheel a few years down the road, I don't want to end up with 3 wheels.
Just my 2 cents.

[Gears for Brains]

Goatboy, oops I forgot to click the multi-quote on your post, but thanks for the input. I'd really like to see them on an actual car, the photochops give an idea but it's just not the same...

for what it's worth, I'd prefer rotatable.

When you say "The 17x8.5 +40 LTW-5 and 18x8.5 +40 EmPower are viable now, all you'd need is hubrings," do you mean I could buy and install a set of 4 silver 17x8.5 +40 LTW-5's now? (recognizing that I might have to find someone to make the hubrings).
Or that they are the most likely candidates based on response to date?
Thanks!

17x8.5 40ET is available now with 72.6 mm BMW centerbore (also 74.1 if that would help). If you can scare up some hubrings, I think you'd be good to go with 245/45's. Some people may be running 255/40's all-around with that offset, but do your own research to confirm firment... my only concern would be rear fender lip clearance. I have 255/40 on 17x9 +42 front with 2151 lowering springs (aka 3/8" drop, aka 20mm drop), all I did was slot the strut bracket holes ~3/32".

You have some valid reasons & concerns in your second post. Nothing wrong with an all-around setup, the main thing is to define your priorities, which you're doing. Thanks for your input.

Something that is rotatable will not fly because what people really want is a mindless way to put 275s on the rear. No way to do anything with 275 all around on a GTO. Even if there was, it would still be considered "staggered" because the offsets would have to be totally different. Like I'll always say, 8.0" front 9.0" rear. Ideal would be around 42mm offset front and 52mm offset rear. 245 front and 275 rear. At a reasonable price point I don't see that ever happening unfortunately.

Agreed that most people on the forum want a staggered setup. Just trying to help Jeff guage the demand.

There are a few people doing some really interesting things to fit wider tires all around, like FastEddy and OldERgoat, but it takes significant effort (voodoo once again) - Noltec strut bushings, front wheel spacers, etc, etc - far beyond the ideal bolt-on.

[zx12guy]

Thanks for your efforts and please keep us posted on your progress.

Chris


Oh and everyone really wants anthracite empowers 18x8.5/18x9.5 ;)

[Gears for Brains]

Thanks for your efforts and please keep us posted on your progress.

Chris

Oh and everyone really wants anthracite empowers 18x8.5/18x9.5 ;)

Yeah, I'm kinda surprised there hasn't been more interest in the EMpower. Beyern Mesh is somewhat similar, and there have been a number of people who've posted up with those. I agree with you about the anthracite, too, that should look good on just about every GTO color.

[TrackAddict]

I'll take any style in silver. prefer rotatable, but won't be picky at this point as long as I can get a minimum of 255s at all 4 corners.

[Gears for Brains]

For anyone interested in these wheels, feel free to post up and help keep this going, even with a general comment or question. I was getting a little discouraged when it was just me four times in a row... Even though DaffyDrunk hasn't signed up for wheels (yet), he's been very helpful to the cause by keeping this thread near the top.

I'll take any style in silver. prefer rotatable, but won't be picky at this point as long as I can get a minimum of 255s at all 4 corners.

Thanks for your interest, TrackAddict, I added you to the list for either design in silver. For the 5-spoke, any preference 17" versus 18"?

[DAFFYDRUNK]

Yea.. Dunno what I'm gonna do about wheels yet. I'm having CSIJason send me some hub rings so I'll be ready to buy if I find something that will work well.

Still, as you have noticed... Everyone has a different opinion about what will work on their car in terms of fitment and style. I've spent countless hours researching trying to figure out what is realistic on the GTO. In the end it's still a hypothetical 18x8x42ET and 18x9x52ET for 245/40-18 front and 275/35-18" rear.

19" rims won't work out for alot of people as they are subject to weight and crap roads. Non staggered doesn't work as there's already plenty of choices for the guy that is cool with 245s all around.

It ends up being a pretty narrow choice for size and then you get everyone's opinion on style. Personally for me, as long as it looks cool, I'm more interested in fit. Hell, if the specs sounded like something that would sell, I'd buy the whole damn lot and sell them myself. Not sure if I'd wanna get into the wheel biz since I have my plate full trying to run a computer biz, but it seems like it's probably worth a shot for a wheel seller to get ahold of some custom sizes that don't cost an arm and a leg...

[Gears for Brains]

Anyone else for lightweight wheels? One of the easiest & best ways to trim ~40 pounds from the GTO.

Hell, if the specs sounded like something that would sell, I'd buy the whole damn lot and sell them myself.

I wish you hadn't said that...now I'm gonna be thinking about it...

[Goat Cheese]

i'm interested in a staggered setup anthracite or black (maybe they're the same) 18"

[Gears for Brains]

i'm interested in a staggered setup anthracite or black (maybe they're the same) 18"

Thanks for your interest, Goat Cheese. I've added you to the list as follows:
18", either design, anthracite or black/machined, wants them now

Let me know if you have a preference between LTW-5 and EmPower (mesh). The "either design" section is cool if your primary interest is light wheels with really good fitment. Here are the finish options:
> LTW-5 ~ silver, anthracite, black w/ machined lip
> EmPower ~ silver w/ machined lip, anthracite w/ machined lip

Anthracite might be called hyperblack by other vendors - a dark silver. Black is a true gloss black. Silver is a bright, light silver. Just post up again if you want anything changed.

[jman8]

I think the Empower's in Anthracite look amazing. My problem is that I want 17s and I don't want to spend more than $700. That means I'm looking at the Kosei K1 and ASA AR1 at the moment.

[eleven011]

I'd be all over the empower staggered in silver in a few months

[Safetykiller]

If either style was 18" staggered, anthracite, that was GTO Hub specific and correct offset (52+ rear) I would buy them. There not the best looking wheels available but if they fit right then they look good enough.
I will be ready to buy in May. Hope you get this thing worked out man.

[MikeB]

I'd buy a staggered set of the 5's in Anthracite, 18" first choice, 17" second choice.

[Gears for Brains]

Wow, today's a good day - three new people for LTW wheels!

I think the Empower's in Anthracite look amazing. My problem is that I want 17s and I don't want to spend more than $700. That means I'm looking at the Kosei K1 and ASA AR1 at the moment.

Thanks for the feedback, jman8. There was another thread I looked at over the weekend where the guy had regrets about not saving up for the wheels he really wanted. That Kosei wheel is a great combination of low weight and low cost, as long as you're OK with a 6-spoke wheel and 8.5" width all-around.

I'd be all over the empower staggered in silver in a few months

Thank you eleven011 - on the list for silver EmPowers. (Note: on the list, everyone is considered as looking for a staggered set unless otherwise noted)

If either style was 18" staggered, anthracite, that was GTO Hub specific and correct offset (52+ rear) I would buy them. There not the best looking wheels available but if they fit right then they look good enough.
I will be ready to buy in May. Hope you get this thing worked out man.

Thanks Safetykiller - on the list for anthracite 18's, either design. They will be hubcentric, and should be at least 52ET for the rear.

I'd buy a staggered set of the 5's in Anthracite, 18" first choice, 17" second choice.

Thank you MikeB - on the list for anthtracite LTW-5's, 18" preferred, 17" as Plan B.

[6.0 GTO]

either wheels in silver stagard 18". not sure when ill be able to get them. clutch and shifter are top priority right now.

[Schleprock]

Just $0.02 to add: The LTW-5s are nothing more than Gram Light copies. Price (extremely reasonable for what you get), wheel specs (weight verse strength), & manufacturing quality (Rays Eng. / Volk) are going to be VERY hard to beat. The pedigree and cost of the Gram Lights are already supported for anyone who wants that style wheel.

[jman8]

Wow, today's a good day - three new people for LTW wheels!



Thanks for the feedback, jman8. There was another thread I looked at over the weekend where the guy had regrets about not saving up for the wheels he really wanted. That Kosei wheel is a great combination of low weight and low cost, as long as you're OK with a 6-spoke wheel and 8.5" width all-around.





What exactly is the advantage of a staggered setup? You would get more grip at launch and it does have a nice look, but wouldn't that just induce more understeer while autocrossing or road racing? Right now I'm thinking about going with the Kosei 17x8.5s et:40 with 255/40 Kumho MXs all around. That should give me a ton more grip than the 235/40/18 Hankook Ventuses on 18x7.5 rims I'm running now. If you can convince me that the staggered setup is the way to go, I'll definitely think harder about hopping on the LTW bandwagon. Those Empowers are certainly hypnotizing and I'm not exactly convinced that those Kosei's are gonna look so hot on a QSM

[wise3]

Yes, it will induce more understeer while autocrossing or road racing, something I personally don't like. It will result in more front tire wear, of course. But in fairness, it will not reduce front grip, just add extra rear grip, so it shouldn't make you slower, just less balanced. Also, the increased rear grip will also allow you to apply more power coming out of tight corners. How important that is depends on the course. Just my 2 cents.

[JeepinPete]

I would love to see the Empower in 17's, anthracite...

[Gears for Brains]

either wheels in silver stagard 18". not sure when ill be able to get them. clutch and shifter are top priority right now.

Thanks - on the list for "spring '08" as a rough estimate. Let me know if/when you have a better idea when you'll be ready.

Just $0.02 to add: The LTW-5s are nothing more than Gram Light copies. Price (extremely reasonable for what you get), wheel specs (weight verse strength), & manufacturing quality (Rays Eng. / Volk) are going to be VERY hard to beat. The pedigree and cost of the Gram Lights are already supported for anyone who wants that style wheel.

I've looked at Gram Lights/Rays/Volk...the only one I know of with a workable GTO fitment is the Volk Racing RE30 18x8.5 +42, at 17.0# and $676. If there's something else, please let me know - I'm looking for strong, lightweight rims for a dedicated autocross setup, but trying to spend less this time than I did for my BBS RG-R's.

I'm not claiming these are equivalent to Volks, but they are MAT process, in the 17-18# range for the above size, and about half the price. Maybe I'm just not getting your comment.

What exactly is the advantage of a staggered setup? You would get more grip at launch and it does have a nice look, but wouldn't that just induce more understeer while autocrossing or road racing? Right now I'm thinking about going with the Kosei 17x8.5s et:40 with 255/40 Kumho MXs all around. That should give me a ton more grip than the 235/40/18 Hankook Ventuses on 18x7.5 rims I'm running now. If you can convince me that the staggered setup is the way to go, I'll definitely think harder about hopping on the LTW bandwagon. Those Empowers are certainly hypnotizing and I'm not exactly convinced that those Kosei's are gonna look so hot on a QSM

Yes, it will induce more understeer while autocrossing or road racing, something I personally don't like. It will result in more front tire wear, of course. But in fairness, it will not reduce front grip, just add extra rear grip, so it shouldn't make you slower, just less balanced. Also, the increased rear grip will also allow you to apply more power coming out of tight corners. How important that is depends on the course. Just my 2 cents.

wise3 summed it up nicely - a staggered setup inherently promotes understeer. Balance can be tuned to some extent with more rear sway bar or stiffer rear springs, but ultimately you're limited by the front tires. In my addmittedly novice autocross experience, power delivery off the line and coming out of tight corners was helped immensely by the wider rear tires. I run the SLP rear bar on the stiff setting, with stock front bar, and Pedders springs F&R.

You might also consider the Falken RT-615 and Dunlop Direzza Sport Z-1, in the same price ballpark as the MX, and quite well-regarded for handling. Good discussion of autocross/street tires here:
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2180 39

Someone posted pictures of a YJ car with Kosei K-1's just in the last few weeks...search and ye shall find a car with a large splitter up front.

I would love to see the Empower in 17's, anthracite...

Yeah, I'd like that too, but not currently an option.

[MuhThugga]

LTW5s in silver. 17x8 and 17x9

As long as the price stays reasonable, I'd be interested. I've been looking for wheels but trying to find a wheel I like that can fit a 275 in the rear without sacrificing two arms and my first born is impossible.

[Gears for Brains]

LTW5s in silver. 17x8 and 17x9

As long as the price stays reasonable, I'd be interested. I've been looking for wheels but trying to find a wheel I like that can fit a 275 in the rear without sacrificing two arms and my first born is impossible.

Thanks MuhThugga, you're down for staggered silver 5-spokes. Everything I've heard so far is the price would stay at $249/$259 for 17's. I'll check in with Jeff later this week since we've had several people sign on recently.

[Fuelie Fan]

I can't commit to anything at this point since i'm broke, but if i had the money: eMpower 18s in anthracite.

[Safetykiller]

Hope this works out man...
I was all in on the Drift-R group buy that never happened and then I was in on the CSL reps group buy that never happened.
I will be doing LT's, 3.91s and a Track I installed by the end of may. I will be rolling fenders and probably getting CLS reps it this doesn't work out by June-July. Don't mean to sound negative, I hope this vendor of yours comes through.

Note to mystery vendor-
You will sell wheels if GTO owners start hearing about these wheels actually fitting. Perfect for summer time GTG's so locals can check them out in person.
MAKE STAGGERED WHEELS THAT FIT MY CAR PLEASE!

[Gears for Brains]

I can't commit to anything at this point since i'm broke, but if i had the money: eMpower 18s in anthracite.

Sorry to hear about the shortage of mod money :(. Thanks for the input, I'm with you on the anthracite/machined lip EMpower.

Hope this works out man...
I was all in on the Drift-R group buy that never happened and then I was in on the CSL reps group buy that never happened.
I will be doing LT's, 3.91s and a Track I installed by the end of may. I will be rolling fenders and probably getting CLS reps it this doesn't work out by June-July. Don't mean to sound negative, I hope this vendor of yours comes through.

Note to mystery vendor-
You will sell wheels if GTO owners start hearing about these wheels actually fitting. Perfect for summer time GTG's so locals can check them out in person.
MAKE STAGGERED WHEELS THAT FIT MY CAR PLEASE!

Man, that's some history with the group buys. I'll understand if you're ready to go before we are. Check in every so often to see how we're doing.

Good comment for Jeff and Bob. Seeing is believing for many people, and then word of mouth referrals will kick in too. Once we get over this first hurdle, these wheels will sell. Not everyone totally loves the design of the Drift-R, but truckloads have been sold because they have the best GTO fitments this side of full-custom wheels.

Anyone can use this thread to pass along {encouraging!} comments to Jeff & Bob. The more interest and passion we show for LTW Motorsports wheels, the better our chances. SafetyKiller obviously has some enthusiasm for this project...

[6.0 GTO]

yes please we deffinently need something that fits well besides drift-r. and we really need some light weight wheels to.

[Safetykiller]

Bumpity

[6.0 GTO]

bump

[Gears for Brains]

I just spoke with Jeff a little while ago. Bob at LTW continues to be interested in this project. We're starting to lean towards the 18" LTW-5 in silver or anthracite, with staggered fitments as follows, and note the new details!
18x8.5 +46 ~17.6#
18x9.5 +52 ~18.3#

22 people have shown interest in these wheels altogether. These folks have a variety of preferences - some were very specific, others were more flexible on finish and/or diameter and/or design. I've been boiling down all the responses received so far, to help narrow the eight (!) options initially offered down to the configuration that we should move forward with...this is mainly for Jeff & Bob, but you're welcome to read on...here's my market research:

Overall Results:
============
11 people would take the 17" LTW-5
14 people would take the 18" LTW-5 >>> satifies the most people
11 people would take the 18" EmPower

17" LTW-5 details:
------------------
8 people would take silver; 3 first-choice preferences
6 people would take anthracite; 1 first-choice preference
5 people would take black/machined lip; 2 first-choice preferences

18" LTW-5 details:
------------------
7 people would take silver; 2 first-choice preferences
9 people would take anthracite; 1 first-choice preference >> for any single wheel config, this one satisfies the most people
5 people would take black/machined lip; 1 first-choice preference

18" EmPower details:
--------------------
3 people would take silver/machined lip; 1 first-choice preference
8 people would take anthracite/machined lip; 4 first-choice preferences > the most first-choice votes

[Safetykiller]

...18" LTW-5 in silver or anthracite, with staggered fitments as follows, and note the new details!
18x8.5 +46 ~17.6#
18x9.5 +52 ~18.3#


Do it.

This would be sweet especially if it was anthracite. Do it. That color looks pretty good. Do it. Make the wheels. Do it. Would easily sell 50 sets. Do it.

[SpeedGTO]

18" LTW-5 in black....... do it..... (although anthracite looks a lot like the "hyper black" my enkie evo 5's where.... which wasnt bad....)

[yellowjacketgoat]

ill take the ltw-5s in 17x8 and 17x9

[Gears for Brains]

Do it.

This would be sweet especially if it was anthracite. Do it. That color looks pretty good. Do it. Make the wheels. Do it. Would easily sell 50 sets. Do it.

Now we're talkin'...THAT'S some enthusiasm!! Thanks for your support, Safetykiller.

18" LTW-5 in black....... do it..... (although anthracite looks a lot like the "hyper black" my enkie evo 5's where.... which wasnt bad....)

Confirmed, your listing is up to date: LTW-5, 18", black/machined, "wants them now". Thanks for checking in.

Yeah, anthracite should be similar to a hyperblack in other brands. The anthracite sample wheel I had looked very good with my QSM, and it's an almost perfect color match with the rear fascia "GTO" insert on the 05-06 models (except they're glossy instead of a matte finish).

ill take the ltw-5s in 17x8 and 17x9

Thanks, yellowjacketgoat, you're on the list for staggered 17" LTW-5's with "no preference on finish".

=======================================

23 people and counting!!!

=======================================

This thread has been viewed 2,554 times up 'til now.

[Kylan]

I like the 18" EmPower with silver/machined lip staggered setup.
I bet that would look smokin' hot on IBM.

[Gears for Brains]

I like the 18" EmPower with silver/machined lip staggered setup.
I bet that would look smokin' hot on IBM.

Don't see how you could go wrong with that combination! I updated the list with your information.

24 people on board so far..

[Safetykiller]

Any news on these?

[PBANDPKGTO]

I will be in if they are available in the next 2 weeks.

LTW graphite staggered 18's.

[Gears for Brains]

Hey gang, I'm preparing for a week of vacation starting Wednesday, so I won't have time to call Jeff this week (i.e. call him and do anything as a result...). I'm driving to NC to visit my Dad, and also going to the Evolution Performance Driving School for the autocross Phase 1 and Phase 2 programs. Looking forward to improving my driving skills - I've heard so many times the importance of investing in the driver as well as (or even before) investing in the chassis. Well I've already worked on the suspension, so now it's time to work on the driver!

Please continue to post here if you like these wheels. I will tally up the results and call Jeff once I get back.

I will be in if they are available in the next 2 weeks.

LTW graphite staggered 18's.

Sorry, PBANDPKGTO, but not possible in the next two weeks. However, I added you to the list anyway, since we're trying to measure the demand. I wrote you up as: 18", anthracite - IF AVAILABLE BY 4/26

Attn: Jeff, Bob, here's another potential customer ready to buy LTW's, all we need is the official go-ahead...

25 LTW enthusiasts, so far

[irvbulldogs72]

I think the LTW-5s in staggered 18 would be amazing, for whenever I get around to putting more money into the car.

[Safetykiller]

Bump

[Gears for Brains]

Well I'm back from vacation, caught up on things with Dad, and took the Phase 1 & 2 autocross courses with Evolution Performance Driving School - an EXCELLENT program! Great instructors and very well structured. If you've every thought of taking a driving school, it's well worth it. I made as many runs in one weekend as I did probably all last year...seat time + good instruction = progress!

So, back to this project. GoToOhio sent a PM - thanks for your extreme interest - I just updated the list. irvbulldogs72, thanks for the moral support...maybe we'll have these in production when you're ready to pull the trigger.

Stats:
26 interested parties
3,125 thread views as of now

I won't have time to call Jeff until next week - I have a setup change to make before Sat/Sun auto-X events...

[EddySal]

make it 3126

[Gears for Brains]

Bad news today when I called to check in with Jeff: he and Bob just don't see enough demand to take the risk on making these wheels for us. They are still tossing some ideas around, looking at a couple other wheels for the GTO...something that would have more general appeal as an appearance upgrade. But nothing that will materialize any time soon...

Oh well, it was a nice idea while it lasted. Thanks to all of you who signed on for this endeavor. Sorry I couldn't pull it off, I actually thought we had a good chance there for a while.

[Safetykiller]

The reason why they didn't get enough intrest is that this board has seen this more than a few times. If they make the wheels they will sell. Group-A makes wheels that fits the GTO and gets plenty of sales. It's probably where I will go now and just call it done.
Good try though Gears for Brains...

[ugapug5150]

Tell Jeff and Bob that maybe if they would just make the smurfing wheels we'd buy them. We're tired of this crap.

[axles of evil]

so whats the word on this ? im about to pull the trigger on a set of real bbs rgr's but i keep checking here to see if this is going to happen.

[Safetykiller]

Bad news today when I called to check in with Jeff: he and Bob just don't see enough demand to take the risk on making these wheels for us. They are still tossing some ideas around, looking at a couple other wheels for the GTO...something that would have more general appeal as an appearance upgrade. But nothing that will materialize any time soon...

Oh well, it was a nice idea while it lasted. Thanks to all of you who signed on for this endeavor. Sorry I couldn't pull it off, I actually thought we had a good chance there for a while.


I would say it's not going to happen. I went with the DR2s since there doesn't seem to be any other options for a decent price.

[Gears for Brains]

Sorry, but this is definitely dead, kaput, and going nowhere.

The DR2's are much improved and have the best off-the-shelf GTO fitment, although the front offset (+46) is a little high for my tastes.

In all likelihood, I will be giving more business to Weldcraft - BMW spec wheels in front and widened to suit the GTO out back.

[USCGTO]

could you elaborate on that one pls.

I think the BMW 3 replica wheels are the most common fit on the GTO. Has anyone looked atthe new 3 series wheels? the five spoke ones?

[Gears for Brains]

could you elaborate on that one pls.

Weldcraft widens wheels that you supply. They now use a plasma cutter to section off the inner part of the barrel, then they insert a band of aluminum strip and weld it all back together, moving the inner lip further inboard. I sent them a set of BBS RG-R's (gulp) and they turned out fine. I've run them hard on at least seven autocross days since then with no issues, and I do inspect the welds whenever I have the wheels off.

The offset increases by half the amount widened. When they make the parting cut, they loose ~3/32" of material (almost 0.1"). They typically add material in 1/2" increments (standard strip stock). Here's an example of what you can do:

17x8 +40 buy four, use two on the front, sent two to Weldcraft
Add 1" nominal (0.906" actual)
0.906"/2=0.453" or approx. 12mm, with the result being...
17x8.9 +52 practically perfect offset

I have a link to them in my sig. You do have to repaint the inner barrel of the wheel, they don't do paint. I think it was $190 a wheel, last time I checked.

[2QWK4RU 06 GOAT]

anyone end up trying the 18x9 version of this wheel?

[Bumpin' Yota]

holy old post batman!

No, guys at the company that would make the wheels were too scared to do it. The pussys were afraid of loosing money or some retarted crap like that.

[2QWK4RU 06 GOAT]

That's what it looks like, I have one on the way for a trial fit.

[robscar]

It's a shame this is dead. I was not in the market at that time. I will be very shortly and like the idea of correct fit.

[Big S]

So it's not quite dead since PFYC is now selling them. Unfortunately the original idea of getting as much wheel/tire under the car without having to tweak (admirable though it was) has been diluted. They can do the Empower mesh (I haven't really looked at the five spoke) in 18x8.5 et +40 and 18x9.5 et +43 which is I think less than desirable for the rear since what I can glean from the forum suggests an et of +52 is ideal for the larger rear size.

Unless completely lost, a spacer of 9mm would do the trick to avoid inside impacts. I also get the impression that rolling the fender for the rear becomes necessary with this wheel size and a 265 tire. Does anyone feel like sharing their experience with getting this done at all and especially in the Fort Lauderdale area please?

Thanks with hope.

[SE-R Spec]

those 5 spokes look like fn01r-c's. i love those wheels! i had them on my spec v.

[geekinajeep]

I found these on their website a week or so ago, but I don't see the 9.5" width and off-sets that you mention. The widest that I see is 9" with a +41 off-set. Am I missing something?

[Big S]

I've been emailing with them and they gave me those options for the EmPower mesh. I was hoping for 8" on the front and 9" inch for the back to avoid any other mods. They do have the 9" inch for the five spoke, but I don't like that wheel.

[Horn_06]

...Unless completely lost, a spacer of 9mm would do the trick to avoid inside impacts...



You wouldn't want a spacer. The 9mm spacer would push the wheel out of the wheelwell. There would not be any problem with inside clearance with a 43mm offest wheel (with 9.5 width). The problem you would have is with the fenderlip - it would need to ground down or rolled.

[Big S]

Yeh. Thanks. I was just going thru the numbers with a wheel offset calculator and had it backwards. Now all I have to do is figure out the rolling thing.