How should I shift the M6?

[FLORIT]

I am a novice drag racer. I want to lower my 60' times and my ET's. (Don't we all?) I suspect that my "tach it to red line and shift" technique is not ideal. What is the proper way to shift the M6 transmission for optimum 60' times and lowest ETs?

[rasilverbird]

Focus on smooth before quick. You want to shift as smooth as possible, so that the car does not dip the nose down and pick it back up too much. You will get quicker with your shifts with time and practice. Some people speed shift (keep foot on gas pedal), but I lift every time, and seem to do OK. To 60' better, it's best to find the RPM at the line where you spin a bit, but not much, and ride the clutch out.

[GTOdriver7]

buddy of mines boss has a Z06. he went to the track one day for some times. first, he went balls out, spinning the tires, power shifting and just going crazy. ran like 12.9 or something. next he ran it as recommended which is to not spin the tires and shift smoothly at redline. ran like a 12.6. so its all in the technnique

[72/04 GTO]

Smooth shifting, Ride the clutch alittle, Keep the tires from spinning (Easier said). I found a shift just before 6000 rpm (around 5700) was better for me to keep up the speed. I'm waiting for NHRA to leave Baytown so I can try her on the 1/4.

[nikivee]

Slip the clutch quickly and ease into the throttle will net you some fairly good 60' ft times. I found that speed shifting at around 6000 netted me my best time, which was 13.3. Speed shifting is the way to go for best times in my opinion, but it takes practice.

[FLORIT]

If by "speed shifting" you mean changing gears without using the clutch, you're right, that takes a lot of practice, not to mention courage. I was an expert at speed shifting on my motorcycle back in the early 80's (Kawasaki 650 CSR). I don't think I have the "intestinal fortitude" to try speed shifting in my brand new car. I will give it some thought, though.

[Rob]

Slip the clutch quickly and ease into the throttle will net you some fairly good 60' ft times. I found that speed shifting at around 6000 netted me my best time, which was 13.3. Speed shifting is the way to go for best times in my opinion, but it takes practice.Right on the money. Never lift :D You'd be surprised at how much time you can lop off, usually .3 seconds just shifting.

[AnoxieGTO]

i thought not pressing the clutch was "Dry Shifting" I have been wrong before..but this is what I was told?

[Rob]

I think the correct terms are Speed shifting for no clutch and Power shifting for never lifing and stabbing the clutch. At least that is how I heard it.

I still used the clutch. Never lifting is hard enough on the car.

[DANSLS1]

I understand it as you do Rob. I have speed shifted both my '78 mustang II and my Geo Metro in the past. I've never quite got the guts up to do it w/ the saturn (I was crazier in college) and I'm not sure I'll ever try it w/ the goat.
Heck - if I was gonna drag race, I'd get one of them there point and shoot A4's, don'tcha know. (That's sarcasm - I have the ultimate respect for people that are good at drag racing, manual or automatic transmission). I got the M6 because it's more fun for general everyday driving.
Dan

[mistermike]

Clutches are for sissies.
Krrrrrnk Krrrrrnk Ka-thunk Sproinnng.
Never Mind.

[DrC]

Cool, so that's the definition for "speedshifting" and "powershifting"!

I've always assumed "speedshifting" is "powershifting", ehehe.

Am I right to assume that speed shifting, although it'll give you faster times, is hell on your clutch/tranny/engine? I'm sure at least one of those drivetrain parts gets stressed.

is there a recommended way to 'row em gears' properly, if there is such a thing? Just wondering...

[rasilverbird]

I thought speed shifting was not lifting, and powershifting was no clutch. That's the way I always understood it anyways.

[Rocket]

Hell why even use the clutch??????????????.........Just hold the gas to the floor, and then just RIP the shifter out of gear and KICK it into the next. No need to waste time or effort with the clutch! :cool:

I think I'll take the .3 loss before I'll put my drivetrain through that strain. :D

[FLORIT]

I'm with you, Rocket. I just don't have the guts to speedshift my 2004. As for not lifting (powershifting), that's a thought, but I'm sure to bump the rev limiter (unless I use my tuner software to move the rev limiter.) I don't want to move the rev limiter because I don't want to blow my new engine. My goal now is for a "partial lift" and a powershift between 5700 and 6000 rpm.

My drag radials arrived via UPS yesterday. The last mod arriving is my new wheels. When they get here, I'll put the drag radials on the stock wheels and my new Toyo tires on the new wheels. Then I'm heading for the strip and practice, practice, practice.

[Rob]

Try it 1st-2nd and see what happens. If you do it right, you won't hit the limiter. 3rd-4th is also a good one. Takes confidence to do the 2nd-3rd shift. But if the GTO is like the F-Body T56, the shifter is 3rd gear biased. Put it in neutral and it should be right below 3rd gear. If it is, its real easy to shift. Instead of doing the up-over-up shift, just push it diagonally. No real effort should be made, just a natural push.

Takes practice. I think that's where the big time saver comes from.

[gangster1]

I thought speed shifting was not lifting, and powershifting was no clutch. That's the way I always understood it anyways.

That is the way I always understood it also.

[1fastdog]

Folks, DO NOT shift a transmission that uses synchros and non-striaght gears without the clutch under + throttle.

Straight cut gears and and dog rings in place of synchros are required. Even with a 4 or 5 speed Jerico "dog" equiped tranny you have to lift off throttle a tad for up shift and blip the go pedal on downshifts.

I seriously doubt you could get a T56 out of gear at WFO much less get it into the next gear without a serious amount of effort and at that a probable mess would result. At the least you'll bend the shift forks.

Foot on the mat shifting is possible, but you have to use the clutch with a tranny not designed for clutchless operation.

You certainly can match revs to upshift but it isn't fast and has little point.

[Rob]

Folks, DO NOT shift a transmission that uses synchros and non-striaght gears withour the clutch under throttle.

Straight cut gears and and dog rings in palce of synchros are required. Even with a 4 or 5 speed Jerico "dog" equiped tranny you have to lift off throttle for up shift and blip on downshifts.

I seriously doubt you could get a T56 out of gear at WFO much less get it into the next gear without a serious effort and probable mess as a result. At the least you'll bend the shift forks.

Foot on the mat shifting is possible, but you have to use the clutch with a tranny not designed for clutchless operation.

You certainly can match revs to upshift but it isn't fast and has little point.I wouldn't try that either. Always shift with the clutch. Never tried without the clutch and probably couldn't do it anyway. That's way to hard on everything.

[mistermike]

You certainly can match revs to upshift but it isn't fast and has little point.
You got THAT right. I tried it a couple of times, but by the time you hit the "window", you'd be staring at someone's tail lights. Useful for limping the car home after you've already toasted the trans.

[nikivee]

Well, here is how I speedshift. I mash the pedal and stab at the clutch really really fast, and shift. I will video tape it.

It's like bang,bang,bang,bang. :D

[FLORIT]

Speaking of shift lights... do they really help? (I'm asking this here so I wouldn't hijack the "gauge pod" thread.)

I'm sure they are easier (and safer) to see than the Tach, but doesn't the sound of the engine clue you when to shift? The only advantage I can think of with the shift light is developing more CONSISTANT shift points. In time, with the light, just like Pavlov's Dogs, our muscle memory will take over and we'll be shifting just as the light comes on. (The dogs responded to a bell, but you get the idea.)

Also, regarding shifting, "red-line" is NOT where we are generating max HP, so isn't it better to shift at that max HP RPM (5200 RPM)?

And lastly, are there different RPM shift points for each gear when using the M6? For example, off the line in 1st, tach to 5000, shift, tach to 5200, shift, tach to 5500, shift... etc...

Or am I really putting too much thought into this? Like nikivee says, "bang, bang, bang, bang"... :D

[radkon]

The purpose of the Shift light isn't for performance, its for fuel efficiency and a "shift stoopid!" light as you creep close to red line.

The shift light also came about on cars with manual trans but no tach, like my 92 Berretta. I hate it but then again as you said, I can hear when to shift my car.

Try this, drive sedately in a gear (1-5) until the shift light comes on, notice the RPM? probably mid band or lower, now don't shift, mash the gas, does the shift light go off? If you are brave, run it close to redline and you'll probably see the light come on again. How bout that!

[FLORIT]

...its for fuel efficiency and a "shift stoopid!" light as you creep close to red line.

I got a big laugh out of the "shift stoopid!" image. I can imagine those words popping up on the DIC, maybe even an audible warning over the stereo speakers... somebody shouting, "SHIFT STOOPID!"

:D

[DANSLS1]

Actually 1) this car doesn't have a 'shift' indicator light and 2) the question was about a bright, typically LED, light set up to go on at the optimum shift point for racing. If you check the drag racing boards, they are very common for the manual transmission drag racers. Often they will set them up in the air vents, on the f-bodies anyway. Typical racing with street cars will be bracket racing, so they are looking for consistency in times as much as they are for quickest ET.
Dan

[gto_in_nc]

now don't shift, mash the gas, does the shift light go off?

I started to try this in each gear. When I did it in 3rd, though, a blue light came one! I thought it was the "Blue-Light Special" but then it dawned on me that I wasn't even in K-Mart at the time. When they give me my car back, I'll try it in the other gears and let you know what happens... :p

Just kidding!

[radkon]

sorry to mislead GTO owners (I'm still waiting for mine). My advice is based on other manuals I've driven with "shift stoopid" lights.

As for aftermarket drag racing tachs and shift lights, they are usually user selectable and a totally different breed. You set the light to come on at max HP or Torque, its just easier to see than the needle on the tach whilst rocketing down the strip.

[nikivee]

Speaking of shift lights... do they really help? (I'm asking this here so I wouldn't hijack the "gauge pod" thread.)

I'm sure they are easier (and safer) to see than the Tach, but doesn't the sound of the engine clue you when to shift? The only advantage I can think of with the shift light is developing more CONSISTANT shift points. In time, with the light, just like Pavlov's Dogs, our muscle memory will take over and we'll be shifting just as the light comes on. (The dogs responded to a bell, but you get the idea.)

Also, regarding shifting, "red-line" is NOT where we are generating max HP, so isn't it better to shift at that max HP RPM (5200 RPM)?

And lastly, are there different RPM shift points for each gear when using the M6? For example, off the line in 1st, tach to 5000, shift, tach to 5200, shift, tach to 5500, shift... etc...

Or am I really putting too much thought into this? Like nikivee says, "bang, bang, bang, bang"... :D


The followin URL does a good explanation on what the ideal shift point is. I shift at 6K or near it everytime. I'm going to install a shift light. Going by engine sound is not an accurate way to determine when to shift.

http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/whentoshift.htm

[Warren]

The followin URL does a good explanation on what the ideal shift point is. I shift at 6K or near it everytime. I'm going to install a shift light. Going by engine sound is not an accurate way to determine when to shift.

ttp://www.datsuns.com/Tech/whentoshift.htm
The link does not work.

[nikivee]

The link does not work.

It does now. :D

Shift point calculator for excel

http://www.datsuns.com/ftp/shiftpoints95.xls

[sxty8goats]

How about some creative folks figuring out how to turn the "Overspeed Indicator" Beep into a "Over RPM" Beep with set points every 50 RPM? That would do quite nicely for me... (LS1Edit?)

[gto_in_nc]

It does now. :D

Shift point calculator for excel

http://www.datsuns.com/ftp/shiftpoints95.xls

WAAAY cool, Nikivee!!! Anyone happen to have stock GTO torque numbers for those RPM points? Could guess from someone's scanned dyno chart but... ;)

[FLORIT]

NICKIVEE, you are my new hero. This is EXACTLY what a computer nerd like myself needs to optimize his GTO's performance. Now I need data. What are the gear ratios for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th? (Probably won't ever get past 4th. Certainly not in the 1/8th mile.) Also, our GTO has a nearly flat torque curve, so that simplifies our calculations. Lastly, learning to hit these shift points consistently takes PRACTICE. This is where the "shift light" will come in real handy. Staring at the tach while drag racing probably isn't real safe. :D

[sxty8goats]

? (Probably won't ever get past 4th. Certainly not in the 1/8th mile.) . :D

Most of the drag racers I know beleive that you should cross the line in third in the 1/4..

[Tails]

Now I need data. What are the gear ratios for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th?
1st 2.97
2nd 2.07
3rd 1.43
4th 1.00
5th 0.84
6th 0.57

From http://www.new-cars.com/2004/pontiac/pontiac-gto-specs.html#transmission

:drink: :drink:

[Tigger]

Don't we also need the engine torque numbers for the different RPMs for the left hand side?

If somebody gets all the numbers updated for the GTO M6, how about posting the updated .xls file.

[Tails]

Here is the plot from LS1 Speed

:drink: :drink:

[FLORIT]

Isn't that a sexy torque curve? Nearly flat!

hahaha, that's the first time I've said "nearly flat" is sexy. :D

[mlc]

Isn't that a sexy torque curve? Nearly flat!

hahaha, that's the first time I've said "nearly flat" is sexy. :D

Hmmmmm.... my wife would agree. um, not that its the first time you said it, but.. oh, never mind.

i love my wife.

[FLORIT]

Don't we also need the engine torque numbers for the different RPMs for the left hand side?

I just plugged in "300" across the board. Close enough for the experiment I wanted to do. Unless I misunderstood the charts, taching to 6K isn't necessary. The 1-2 shift it optimal around 5600, as is the 2-3 shift. The 3-4 shift is optimal around 5200, but we'll be through the trap by then so who cares?

Man, oh, man, I'm dangerous now. I have DATA! Bahwahahahaha! (evil laugh)

[DANSLS1]

I tried explaining that that was a possibility on ls1tech a while back (that it might be optimum to shift lower than redline) and they just didn't get it. There's a bunch of people out there that just don't understand the science behind everything and end up hurting themselves in races because they don't get it.
Dan

[gto_in_nc]

If people send me some real numbers for stock motors (either fairly hi-res dyno charts or, even better, the torque curve in table form), I'll create a diferent version of this same concept that I was thinking about last night - something that I think will make things much more apparent to the "non-scientific-type". We can then plug in numbers for modified motors to see how changes in the torque curve should affect driving patterns.

[Old Goat]

You guys are on a roll now! Why do I keep hearing Clio's 'Dangerous Type' in the background? :) I am thinking the A4 could use some shift point and firmness adjustments as well. Hmmmmm....I wonder if all or parts from the GMPP 4L60 / 700-R4 Transmission Performance Kit might be fudged in without having to do a rebuild or re-flash? :confused:

[Warren]

Can I ask a question of something that has gone over my head a little? The best place to shift would be from 1st to 2end at 5600 RPM, and from 2end to 3rd at 5600 RPM. Then you shift at 5200 RPM from 3rd to 4th, but at that time you are past the mark and hopefully doing around 100-113 MPH or so.

Am I correct with that statement? The numbers confuse me, and I dont have excel, otherwise I would look into the numbers a little more.

[Iron Horse]

Can I ask a question of something that has gone over my head a little? The best place to shift would be from 1st to 2end at 5600 RPM, and from 2end to 3rd at 5600 RPM. Then you shift at 5200 RPM from 3rd to 4th, but at that time you are past the mark and hopefully doing around 100-113 MPH or so.

Am I correct with that statement? The numbers confuse me, and I dont have excel, otherwise I would look into the numbers a little more.

To my understanding, and I could be wrong but:

1st - 2nd shift @ 5600 RPM
2nd - 3rd shift @ 5600 RPM
3rd - 4th shift @ 5200 RPM

Now I have another reason to take out my GOAT and go and practice. :D

[FLORIT]

Warren, don't quote me on those numbers because I was just experimenting with the spreadsheet, but generally speaking, yes, the data seems to indicate that the optimum 1-2 shift is BELOW redline, as is the optimum 2-3 shift. And, based on my "quickie math", I think the optimum 3-4 shift is lower still.

Since it will be raining all weekend, I intend to get serious with the calculations and come up with some real world numbers.

By the way, the 3-4 shift is not a big deal in the 1/8th mile, but plays a big part in the 1/4 mile. In the 1/8th, we'll be crossing the finish line about the time we hit 4th.

[gto_in_nc]

The idea, basically, is that you want to shift into the next gear at the point where the "oomph" in the next gear is gonna be up but the "oomph" in the current gear hasn't started to roll off too badly yet. If you look at a dyno curve for a stock GTO engine, youl see that that torque starts to drop off fairly quickly over about 5300 and that HP peaks in the 5.4k to 5.6k range.

[FLORIT]

How about some creative folks figuring out how to turn the "Overspeed Indicator" Beep into a "Over RPM" Beep with set points every 50 RPM? That would do quite nicely for me... (LS1Edit?)

I very seriously doubt you would ever hear that "beep" when racing.

OK, I plugged in the torque curve numbers as best I could from the dyno chart provided. Lo and behold, the numbers seem to confirm what we've been discussing.

Taching to 6000 RPM is "overkill". You will find more consistent acceleration when shifting between 5200 and 5600 RPM. Thanks to our GTO's impressive and nearly flat torque curve, we have lots of "wiggle room".

You could probably set your shift light to illuminate at 5450 for the 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, AND 4-5 shifts and be pretty much optimized. Because of the significant drop in gear ratio when you go into 6th, you'd want to shift a bit later at the 5-6 shift, but as we've said, if you're shifting into 6th you're probably in a road race and that changes everything.

This has been fun and I now feel "edumacated". A .XLS file is an invalid file type for upload to this forum and I haven't finished my web site yet. If you really want the updated .XLS (with the dyno chart inserted, too), PM me and I'll email it to you.

[Rob]

You can theorize(sp?) this forever but in actual application, you run quicker/faster shifting at 6K. Its been proven time and time again with the LS1 equipped cars.

But at the track, try it to see. I think you'll see that you need to shift higher. This was the same thing back when the LT1 came out, people thought you should shift at 5200 because of the power curves. Just didn't happen that way with that engine either :)

[DANSLS1]

Funny - but when I brought this up on LS1tech.com - the only people who admitted actually trying it said they got faster times shifting according to their torque curves rather than redlining it every time. Most of the responses were 'it's got to be faster going to the redline' - so they had never tried otherwise.
Dan

[FLORIT]

Well, when you think about it, the difference between 5450 RPM and 6000 RPM is probably too small to measure with the human senses, especially in "the heat of the moment." It's true that theory and practical application are two different animals, as we've discussed in other threads.

Now that the "math" has been done, you're right, it's time to experiment. This experiment would be WAY easier with an A4 and some tuner software because you could guarantee consistent shift points. To do this experiment with my M6, I am really going to need a shift light because I don’t really want to stare at the tach while I’m racing.

I will also need to wait a long time between runs to ensure “heat soak” and other variables do not alter the experiment. In truth, the BEST way to confirm our data would be on a simulator (i.e. dyno).

I worked on Flight Simulators in the Air Force. They were not your “PC based” simulators at all. These birds would make experienced pilots puke.

Anyone got a drag race simulator? :D

[FLORIT]

And another thing... :)

It just dawned on me that any of you good physics majors or math wizzes should be able to prove, mathematically, what shift points will generate the best ET. You'll have to make some assumptions about track conditions (resistance), but for the sake of argument you could even ignore those variables and pretend you're racing in a vacuum.

I know there is a mathematical solution, I'm just too far out of college to do the work. (OK, I admit, I'm too LAZY to do the work.) But all the data is available. Write the equation and plug in the values.

Oh, for crying out loud, who CARES!? As we say in the golf game...

"GRIP IT AND RIP IT"

[mistermike]

I saw a good workup on that for the Probe. The Probe loses a lot by the time you get to redline. They calculated the area under the curve of the power chart and concluded that despite the droop @ 7K, shifting at redline still produced the greatest total power, mainly because of where it put you in the higher gear.

[Tigger]

I saw a good workup on that for the Probe. The Probe loses a lot by the time you get to redline. They calculated the area under the curve of the power chart and concluded that despite the droop @ 7K, shifting at redline still produced the greatest total power, mainly because of where it put you in the higher gear.So which is more important to look at when you are trying to maximize acceleration, power or torque?

[FLORIT]

So which is more important to look at when you are trying to maximize acceleration, power or torque?

That, my friend, is the Million Dollar Question. It might seem that HP and Torque are not related since they are plotted on two different curves.

In laymen's terms (which is all I know), we have to look at BOTH. As I understand it, based on the info in this thread, higher RPM with more HP ramps up the torque more rapidly, thus steepening the acceleration curve, unless, of course, it is Monday and Venus is not aligned with Jupiter and there is turmoil in the Middle East. Under THOSE conditions, science does not apply and the age old concept of "pedal to the metal" should be utilized.

In other words, I have no idea.

[Rob]

Torque is what gets you going. Horsepower is how fast you get there :)

[Old Goat]

I tried explaining that that was a possibility on ls1tech a while back (that it might be optimum to shift lower than redline) and they just didn't get it. There's a bunch of people out there that just don't understand the science behind everything and end up hurting themselves in races because they don't get it.
Dan

Someone has to lose... ;)
The ideal shift points would drop the RPM in each next gear to where the car starts to pull the hardest. Applied Torque wins Drag Races. Peak Horsepower wins Bench Races... :sneaky:

[Tigger]

Someone has to lose... ;)
The ideal shift points would drop the RPM in each next gear to where the car starts to pull the hardest. Applied Torque wins Drag Races. Peak Horsepower wins Bench Races... :sneaky:I know this is saying almost the same thing, but wouldn't the ideal shift point be when the RPM you would drop to in the next gear gives you more torque than the current RPM in the current gear? This may or may not be "where the car starts to pull hardest" (i.e. max torque) depending on the gear ratios of the different gears, right?

[gto_in_nc]

Look at the torque curve (HP is simply torque x rpm x 550 and is a legacy unit of measure.) The idea is to maximize the area under the total curve for each gear - basically pasting the curve for one gear onto the end of the previous one. and adding them up...

[FLORIT]

Yeah, what he said...

Did anyone besides me keep his or her college calculus book? I get a headache just thinking about it.

Rev to a point where, when you shift, the next gear is in the "meat" of its torque curve. This means going MARGINALLY beyond the previous gear's max output to where the curve JUST begins to fall off. Ideally, as gto_in_nc has indicated, the end result will be that we have stayed in the power band from one gear to the next as much as possible.

That “area under the curve” image is a good one for me. I can “see” the best-case scenario in my mind, but damned if I have the words to describe it. A mathematical solution exists, but I ain’t gonna do the math. I passed calculus, and then swore I’d never torture myself like that again.

Finally, I “get it.”

If I shift too LATE, the power I lose by over revving is greater than the power I gain by going to the next gear at a higher RPM. I’d be “shooting myself in the foot” trying to milk power out of the engine.

If I shift too SOON, I fail to maximize the drive train’s potential. (I bet there aren’t many of us who shift too soon.)

I noticed yesterday that about 5500 RPM is “top dead center” of the tach in the dash. That is my new goal… shift when the tach needle points straight up.

[Old Goat]

Look at the torque curve (HP is simply torque x rpm x 550 and is a legacy unit of measure.) The idea is to maximize the area under the total curve for each gear - basically pasting the curve for one gear onto the end of the previous one. and adding them up...

I know this is saying almost the same thing, but wouldn't the ideal shift point be when the RPM you would drop to in the next gear gives you more torque than the current RPM in the current gear? This may or may not be "where the car starts to pull hardest" (i.e. max torque) depending on the gear ratios of the different gears, right?...

Both of you are right and on track. We are all saying the same thing with different words and slightly different perspectives. All my stick time at the strip was watching a shift light on the Autometer out of the corner of my eye. It was set and fine tuned for ET by a G-Meter. The torque curve on this new GTO is most forgiving. Being +/- a 100 RPM on this thing isn't going to be as severe a mistake as it was on that injected Big Block Yeah, I banged shifts without ever touching the clutch, but it was an M22 Muncie Rock Crusher made for the abuse, not a finely engineered precision street transmission. I had help there too, I couldn't move the stick until the torque started to fall off on the Big Block. The torque 'curve' on that thing looked like Mount Everest.... :D God Bless the folks who invented digital controls, hand tuners/readers, and computer software! You can do today at a desk what took weeks or months of groping around in the dark, and take it out to the driveway and plug it in. ;)

[radkon]

Here's an interesting report comparing the The '04 Goat, a '71 455 H.O., a '70 Ram Air III Judge, and a '66 Tri-Power.

They also have a Dyno chart for each
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/features/040 7pon_engine/

Sorry I didn't look that hard, no RPM on the chart, just MPH, what kind of dyno is that!

[Old Goat]

Here's an interesting report comparing the The '04 Goat, a '71 455 H.O., a '70 Ram Air III Judge, and a '66 Tri-Power.

They also have a Dyno chart for each
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/features/040 7pon_engine/

Sorry I didn't look that hard, no RPM on the chart, just MPH, what kind of dyno is that!

We might have to start a new thread if this keeps going, BUT...in the meantime, I think you found the Rosetta Stone. The only other Goat that makes ludicrous amounts of grunt low is the 455 HO, in these charts anyways, and that certainly was a tire fryer...BUT...it had a solid axle and a robust positraction allowing it to plant BOTH rear wheels hard on launch, and it was simply modifiable back there to assist it in doing so better and evenly, then comes us, with IRS and a 'pooftah' posi that unevenly loads and has issues with the power we are feeding it. We can't couple up. (I'm guesstimating at interpolating our MPH based typical chart to their RPM based charts). The 389 with trips never really gets to our torque level at all. The next best is the 400 RA, which by 3,000 RPM has hooked up, and is moving, almost certainly past the 60 foot mark, before it's curve comes on.

What we have here, is a failure to communicate. Torque to pavement.

We have limited tire options, we can't go much bigger. We can go a little stickier, but that's going to torque load everything behind the flywheel or flexplate heavier, right to the limits of the drivetrain, and I fear parts will fly if didgital torque management doesn't act to relieve the stresses.

Thankfully, right now, the pooftah posi is going in the dumper on folks apparently, blowing like a fuse. If a spool was subbed in the rear end, I think we would be seeing driveshaft, rubber couplers, and halfshaft issues on the stick cars, at least.

The A4's already are activating the Torque Management to kill torque, explaining the timed 0-60 MPH differential with a stick car, just the opposite of what you would expect. They should be a tenth or two quicker than the sticks. I was told, and have no reason to suspect otherwise, that the installed converter in the A4's is a 2300 RPM +/- stall. That may have the A4's already overloading the systems behind them.

So, what have we got left? Here is where we go into what I am supposing, not what I can point to as fact. I could easily be out in left field on this, but all I learned, used and knew from the last 40+ years indicates this to me.

Here we go. We have too much grunt. The car has what in any other car would be the ideal torque curve, but it isn't in this one because of limitations on harnessing all that power.....so, either we get really, really into the rear suspension and drivetrain, raise the converter stall, balloon the wheel wells, and strive to make the car fit the torque curve, OR, we change what we can without butchering the car and we strive to make the torque curve fit the car.

I would like to see the torque curves compared between our LS1 and a Vette LS6. I would just about bet Dollars to Donuts that the LS6's curve is more tipped to the left. That 50HP differential is going to show up as less low end grunt, and might reflect one reason GM is entertaining the LS6 for 05.

This 04 car is phenomenal for Drifting and Smoke Shows, but has everyone running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to couple up. I'd also bet GM is going to try and relieve the strain on the driveline short of having to replace tons of parts, and what better way to do it, than take some bottom end, leave the pulling midrange where it is, and graft some on the drive by before the lights top end? They also get bragging rights for the bigger HP number.

This may be one rare time to look for more cam to help the bottom end, heresy, but my thoughts.

[gto_in_nc]

There's one other thing to consider, Goat - although I believe it applies more to the M6 than the A4. IRS very strongly suggests an intent of a road car rather than a strip machine. Read an interesting comment in an evo magagine review of the new Porsche Carrera GT. The folks at Porsche strongly recommend slipping out the clutch with foot off the gas and then, basically, doing what comes naturally. Granted, Porsches ain't the same as Pontiacs but...

What happens to the bulk of the drivetrain stress issues if at-RPM clutch releases are very rare? I suspect the percentage of new GTO owners who will actually spend time at the track is going to be miniscule and I don't think the car was intended as an out-of-the-box bracket racer. So, engage the clutch as smoothly as possible just off and then allow a rapid roll-on of torque to do the work, thereby saving the drivetrain? Just a thought...

Some of you who are paying attention may remember that I posted a month ago, right after I got my GTO, and commented about not getting the tirespin many were talking about - I wondered whether something was wrong. I realized soon after that nothing was wrong with the car, I simply wasn't driving it like The Swamp Rat. If I tromp on it and row through the gears, I can smoke 'em into the middle of third gear (only did it once and it was a hoot!) but I wasn't going very fast at the end of it - it let me know, though, that the car has the capability. Will I ever do that again? Unlikely.

Now, all that said, I am completely in agreement with you. People very much interested in 60ft times or 1/4 mile ETs are gonna start busting these cars big time because of that awesome low-end torque. The same thing that makes it so much fun to drive at 50 - 75% makes it a twister at 90 -100%. This is amplifiied in the A4s because of the nature of the beast - a torque converter is like slipping the heck out of the clutch in that it multiplies torque by allowing the engine to turn at a higher rate. A4 folks are gonna be able to very easily make consistently hard launches that will soon turn all that beautiful torque into wrenched metal. Skewing the powerband to the right, pulling down the low-end torque slightly in exchange for a small increase in upper-end torque (and, as you so rightly point out, HP), would substantially reduce stress on the running gear and likely improve 1/4 mile times - and should take little away from the fun of driving the GTO down the boulevard.

People abusing their drivetrain for fun (and Lord Almighty, what fun it is!) will be creating a demand for stronger replacement parts. Let's just hope the run of '04 GTOs is deep enough to make the prices for those parts reasonable for all of us.

For me, I think I'll just try to remember that it ain't bulletproof and baby the clutch and IRS just a little...

[FLORIT]

Point well taken. I had never drag raced before and LOVED it. Now I can't wait to go back. But, whoa nelly! Although I have a fun, fun car that's really fast (by my standards), you are right in saying it wasn't built as an "out-of-the-box" bracket racer.

Great input, guys. I am really going to have to temper my enthusiasm before I trash my ride. And those drag radials in my basement? They may do more harm than good by grabbing well and stressing the IRS, drive shaft, half-shafts, etc, even further.

Hmmmm, I wonder if road racing is up my alley? :D

[Old Goat]

Point well taken. I had never drag raced before and LOVED it. Now I can't wait to go back. But, whoa nelly! Although I have a fun, fun car that's really fast (by my standards), you are right in saying it wasn't built as an "out-of-the-box" bracket racer.

Great input, guys. I am really going to have to temper my enthusiasm before I trash my ride. And those drag radials in my basement? They may do more harm than good by grabbing well and stressing the IRS, drive shaft, half-shafts, etc, even further.

Hmmmm, I wonder if road racing is up my alley? :D

If it ain't, it certainly can be...;>) Review all the videos on the Media page. More than half are Autocross, Drifting, and Road Racing... :D

[Old Goat]

There's one other thing to consider, Goat - although I believe it applies more to the M6 than the A4. IRS very strongly suggests an intent of a road car rather than a strip machine. Read an interesting comment in an evo magagine review of the new Porsche Carrera GT. The folks at Porsche strongly recommend slipping out the clutch with foot off the gas and then, basically, doing what comes naturally. Granted, Porsches ain't the same as Pontiacs but...

What happens to the bulk of the drivetrain stress issues if at-RPM clutch releases are very rare? I suspect the percentage of new GTO owners who will actually spend time at the track is going to be miniscule and I don't think the car was intended as an out-of-the-box bracket racer. So, engage the clutch as smoothly as possible just off and then allow a rapid roll-on of torque to do the work, thereby saving the drivetrain? Just a thought...

Some of you who are paying attention may remember that I posted a month ago, right after I got my GTO, and commented about not getting the tirespin many were talking about - I wondered whether something was wrong. I realized soon after that nothing was wrong with the car, I simply wasn't driving it like The Swamp Rat. If I tromp on it and row through the gears, I can smoke 'em into the middle of third gear (only did it once and it was a hoot!) but I wasn't going very fast at the end of it - it let me know, though, that the car has the capability. Will I ever do that again? Unlikely.

Now, all that said, I am completely in agreement with you. People very much interested in 60ft times or 1/4 mile ETs are gonna start busting these cars big time because of that awesome low-end torque. The same thing that makes it so much fun to drive at 50 - 75% makes it a twister at 90 -100%. This is amplifiied in the A4s because of the nature of the beast - a torque converter is like slipping the heck out of the clutch in that it multiplies torque by allowing the engine to turn at a higher rate. A4 folks are gonna be able to very easily make consistently hard launches that will soon turn all that beautiful torque into wrenched metal. Skewing the powerband to the right, pulling down the low-end torque slightly in exchange for a small increase in upper-end torque (and, as you so rightly point out, HP), would substantially reduce stress on the running gear and likely improve 1/4 mile times - and should take little away from the fun of driving the GTO down the boulevard.

People abusing their drivetrain for fun (and Lord Almighty, what fun it is!) will be creating a demand for stronger replacement parts. Let's just hope the run of '04 GTOs is deep enough to make the prices for those parts reasonable for all of us.

For me, I think I'll just try to remember that it ain't bulletproof and baby the clutch and IRS just a little...

Clutch work will keep the heavy hits off the drivetrain for you stick guys, and tying a balloon to my gas foot would help me, no doubt...but how radical a difference could a 'skoshi' bit more cam make in the fun part, other than the correspondingly added lope at idle. I know this, bump sticks are cheaper than this driveshaft, and maybe the halfshafts as well... :D

They may beat me off the line, but maybe I can catch them before the lights. Remember our motto men! No parts left behind! :D

[gto_in_nc]

Clutch work will keep the heavy hits off the drivetrain for you stick guys, and tying a balloon to my gas foot would help me, no doubt...but how radical a difference could a 'skoshi' bit more cam make in the fun part, other than the correspondingly added lope at idle. I know this, bump sticks are cheaper than this driveshaft, and maybe the halfshafts as well... :D

They may beat me off the line, but maybe I can catch them before the lights. Remember our motto men! No parts left behind! :D

Bingo!!! And I'm thinking along the lines of minor mods to open it up slightly (down the road when my wife isn't looking) - heads, a slightly more aggressive cam (a tad more lift, perhaps and a little more lope - just a little push in the upper regions without damaging the smoothness of the stock torque curve) and maybe some bolt-in headers if they prove effective.

[FLORIT]

Well, all that talk about "shift points" was wasted space. I didn't pay a damn bit of attention to the tach. I just "gripped it and ripped it." In my first run, I hit the rev limiter in first and second, but still managed a 14.041. I got slower as the day went on and quit after three runs. Here are the numbers...

First Run
R/T .478
60' 2.146
330 5.951
1/8 9.110
mph 78.69
1000 11.777
1/4 14.041
mph 99.44

Second Run
R/T .181
60' 2.227
330 6.161
1/8 9.312
mph 78.42
1000 11.999
1/4 14.272
mph 99.13

Third Run
R/T .350
60' 2.258
330 6.189
1/8 9.368
mph 77.76
1000 12.075
1/4 14.367
mph 98.30

My reaction times were much better than my first trip to the strip, but my launch and 60' times are what's killing me. I definitely need more practice. I'm going back to the 1/8th mile next Friday. We'll see what happens.

[Dbluegoat]

Well, all that talk about "shift points" was wasted space. I didn't pay a damn bit of attention to the tach. I just "gripped it and ripped it." In my first run, I hit the rev limiter in first and second, but still managed a 14.041. I got slower as the day went on and quit after three runs. Here are the numbers...

First Run
R/T .478
60' 2.146
330 5.951
1/8 9.110
mph 78.69
1000 11.777
1/4 14.041
mph 99.44


My reaction times were much better than my first trip to the strip, but my launch and 60' times are what's killing me. I definitely need more practice. I'm going back to the 1/8th mile next Friday. We'll see what happens.

Florit was that on stock tires? Those are nice times. Your very close to 13's......I gotta go back get rid of that 14.6 I had.....

[FLORIT]

No, that was with the Nitto 555R tires at about 25 psi. The tires definitely grip. So much so that I bogged at the starting line because I didn't slip the clutch enough. And when changing from 1st to 2nd, there was NO wheel hop, just a very satisfying "bark" and a push forward. The tires help. I just need to learn how to drive. :D

[dmonty]

Did anyone besides me keep his or her college calculus book? I get a headache just thinking about it.

That “area under the curve” image is a good one for me. I can “see” the best-case scenario in my mind, but damned if I have the words to describe it. A mathematical solution exists, but I ain’t gonna do the math. I passed calculus, and then swore I’d never torture myself like that again.



Florit, if you see a list laying around with your name on it please let me know. That is my sh*t list. LOL

I have completed my calculus and physics courses and now you are saying that I may actually have to use that for something practical?!?

Granted down the road I may crack open the calc and physics books to research torque, accelleration, velocity and such but for now I will rely on the info gathered here for my research!

_DM

[FLORIT]

I feel your pain, dmonty. I have become so "technology dependant", I can't add or subtract.

I did learn, however, that all the discussion on theory was wasted on me. I didn't follow the plan at all. Maybe with a few more runs under my belt I will settle down and use my noggin'. Meanwhile, I'm still bumping the rev limiter, wheel hopping 2nd, frying the clutch, and having a helluva good time. :D

[Dbluegoat]

Florit, if you see a list laying around with your name on it please let me know. That is my sh*t list. LOL

I have completed my calculus and physics courses and now you are saying that I may actually have to use that for something practical?!?

Granted down the road I may crack open the calc and physics books to research torque, accelleration, velocity and such but for now I will rely on the info gathered here for my research!

_DM
I actually loved Calculus and Diff Equations.....pretty much hated physics though......I have all my books too.....gathering dust

[gto_in_nc]

Would it be dangerous of me to mention that my undergrad is in appled physics?

[Tigger]

Would it be dangerous of me to mention that my undergrad is in appled physics?Geek! :)

[Dbluegoat]

Would it be dangerous of me to mention that my undergrad is in appled physics?
yuck.......I did love my electrical engineering classes though...most of them....

[dmonty]

yuck.......I did love my electrical engineering classes though...most of them....

I start on my online CS degree this fall with FSU. That should be interesting.

I just have to finish off Spanish II and American Govt then I am done with all the non-technical classes for the most part.

[dmonty]

Geek! :)

In todays world Geek=Bank if you know what you are doing!!! :-pimp:

[FLORIT]

Ah, very true dmonty... but who wants to live in a world with 2 billion web developers and one plumber?

Look for "skilled labor" rates to absolutely skyrocket in the coming years, as more of our young people move into the service industries and away from "workin' for a livin'."

[Tigger]

In todays world Geek=Bank if you know what you are doing!!! :-pimp:Well, yeah... just look at one of the world's biggest geeks -- Bill Gates.

If you were any kind of programming geek, you would have written Geek == Bank.

[dmonty]

Well, yeah... just look at one of the world's biggest geeks -- Bill Gates.

If you were any kind of programming geek, you would have written Geek == Bank.

// wouldn't that be:
Geek==Bank;

[FLORIT]

If you were any kind of programming geek, you would have written Geek == Bank.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... good one.

if (Geek == Bank) Owner = HornRimmedGlasses + TapeInTheMiddle + HighWaterPants
else if (Bank != Overdraft) Owner = GasStation - Bank
else if (Bank == Overdraft && Job == Geek) Bank = PayDay - GasStation + DrivingFun
else GTO = Sold;

[Tigger]

Okay, I guess Florit is the top geek on this board. :hail: :rolleyes:

[gto_in_nc]

Would it be dangerous of me to mention that my undergrad is in appled physics?

Ummm... Make that "applied" physics. Did spend a lot of time on Newtonian mechanics, though - so apples came up in discussion more than once! ;)

[gto_in_nc]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... good one.

if (Geek == Bank) Owner = HornRimmedGlasses + TapeInTheMiddle + HighWaterPants
else if (Bank != Overdraft) Owner = GasStation - Bank
else if (Bank == Overdraft && Job == Geek) Bank = PayDay - GasStation + DrivingFun
else GTO = Sold;

I stopped publicly admitting any programming knowledge after learning VAX assembly... :sneaky:

[GMH GTO]

Ah, very true dmonty... but who wants to live in a world with 2 billion web developers and one plumber?

Look for "skilled labor" rates to absolutely skyrocket in the coming years, as more of our young people move into the service industries and away from "workin' for a livin'."

I'm in a auto mechanics union, contract is up in a year from now. The union is looking for more raises as they did 3 years ago, so its gonna be a :-punch: The union says auto mechanics are the lowest paid skilled trade at $25.25 an hour.

[sxty8goats]

I'm in a auto mechanics union, contract is up in a year from now. The union is looking for more raises as they did 3 years ago, so its gonna be a :-punch: The union says auto mechanics are the lowest paid skilled trade at $25.25 an hour.


Many people in this country dream of making $25 an hour. That is a good wage ($50,000 per year for you salary folks) which even a single person could afford to buy a home and a new car on. Unions make me sick.

When I was building machinery for $10 and hour in the early 90's we built for union shops, Ford, GM ect. Guys would come in to be trained who were getting $18 and their "skill" was to cut excess flash from a part with a utility knife. One guy thought it was "neat" that I was "allowed" to do sheet metal work, weld, build and trouble shoot, design machinery and paint. This guy couldn't find a spark plug on a lawn mower and he was a "skilled auto worker"

[GMH GTO]

Many people in this country dream of making $25 an hour. That is a good wage ($50,000 per year for you salary folks) which even a single person could afford to buy a home and a new car on. Unions make me sick.

When I was building machinery for $10 and hour in the early 90's we built for union shops, Ford, GM ect. Guys would come in to be trained who were getting $18 and their "skill" was to cut excess flash from a part with a utility knife. One guy thought it was "neat" that I was "allowed" to do sheet metal work, weld, build and trouble shoot, design machinery and paint. This guy couldn't find a spark plug on a lawn mower and he was a "skilled auto worker"

I'll say unions are good but $25 an hour is fine to me :wall: its the healthcare package thats important. The insurance package cost is going out of control, people who arn't in union are paying like $100 a week :eek2: Hopefully the president elect will inact a healthcare plan repulicans and democrats are offering. And i'm not talking a canadian style system, just a base healthcare plan that everyone has and make it optional if you want a comprehensive insurance. This will give american workers better earning power and be as or more efficent then workers off shore.

Still at 50k a year their are plumbers or HVAC guys that make more and they only have narrowed variety of jobs, auto mechanics have a large variety of work HVAC, electrical, welding, machinest, interior squeek rattle noise specialist and the cars are changing at a fast rate.

[FLORIT]

I didn't comment on the Union thing earlier because I didn't want to start this debate... but since it seems to have begun, here's my two cents...

I'm a salaried employee in a Union shop. Our hourly workers are some of the highest paid in the region. Most of them earn their money. Some hide under the Union umbrella and rob the company. Those who choose to exploit their Union protection reflect poorly on the Union and on the company. I blame the COMPANY for letting this happen, not the Union. It may be, however, that it's cheaper to let a few bad eggs skate by than to exact any real discipline.

American jobs are flying overseas because an impoverished community will work for fractions of what the American people have grown accustomed to earning. While this may be good for that impoverished community and help lift them out of a dismal situation, it is bad for Americans on many levels, too many to enumerate here.

Many outsourced jobs, however, are returning to the United States because companies are learning that the logistics of operating overseas will often offset the savings in labor rates. Not to mention that Americans really CAN do quality work.

To save our jobs and secure an opportunity to work for our children, Unions, companies, politicians, healthcare providers, the American society in general, is going to have to find some real common ground, genuine compromises, that work fairly for all. I am not suggesting Communism or Socialism. We, the United States, the greatest society in the history of mankind, can surely find a solution.

Or we can surely perish.

I won’t pretend to have any answers. The whole equation is too complex for any one person to comprehend. I do believe, however, that any solution will require a “give and take” attitude from everyone, with more “giving” than “taking”. Healthcare costs are out of control. Overseas outsourcing is crippling whole communities. (Examine how the textile industry abandoned Southwest Virginia.) Childcare for working families is virtually unaffordable. Drugs, crime, decaying infrastructure, threats to our safety from abroad… the variables in the equation are almost countless. How can all these issues be addressed to everyone’s benefit?

Only with fundamental changes in attitude from every member of the most diverse population of people ever collected within borders.

“Ask not what your country can do for you… ask what you can do for your country.” JFK

[sxty8goats]

There are laws today that enforce everything that the unions fought for in their begining. The unions did wonderful things for the worker at their inception. Today they are nothing but a business feeding off of the people they say they are protecting.

When GM wanted to introduce robots on the assembly line, Unions complained that the workers would be loosing jobs and would not allow robots. GM's solution was to offer to have the robots pay the same Union Dues that the worker paid. The Unions agreed. That does not show me that the union is after anything other than union dues.


Florit, you are correct. Little of what you are saying related to unions. We area in a global economy now and we will need to learn to adapt to that economy to survive.

[Warren]

Sorry, but I do not know how Unions and how to shift the M6 are connected. Lets try to keep on topic here.

[FLORIT]

Yeah, Warren, I had the same thought, but I figured after three pages this thread was "played" anyway. :D