: MSD Timing Twister Install


jsolsona
04-23-2008, 06:46 AM
Has anybody succesfully installed the MSD timing twister on their goat? I tried but the harness first would not plug in to the sensors (cam and crank). MSD told me to order the part number for an LS1 which I did and it pluged in but the car would not run. MSD now sent me a new harness and box but i have not installed yet as it is a pain since the starter has to come down to access the crank position sensor. Any help would be appreciated.

RUQWKNF
04-23-2008, 11:30 AM
What part number did you get the first time?

Page 114 of the 2008 catalog says, P/N 8625 is specifically for LS1 & LS6 only. Meaning the wiring harness is motor specific. (2004 GTO)

P/N 86251 is for LS2 & LS7 only. (2005 & 2006 GTO)
I have one sitting at home waiting to be installed soon.

FWIW, here is a link to the instructions manual and MSD's blurb.

http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/8625.pdf

http://www.msdignition.com/2007/timingtwister.html


And for those who have never seen one, here is a pic.

http://www.msdignition.com/2007/images/Timing-Twister.jpg

Here's some of the verbage direct from MSD's site.

"The Timing Twister has four rotary dials that give you the ability to advance the timing curve, set up a step retard or even select a retard rate based on boost pressure. Control over the timing can help improve economy, improve performance and help tune the engine for other modifications. The Timing Twister does not modify ignition timing at idle, but becomes active above 1,800 rpm. Once above that rpm, the entire timing curve can be advanced up to 9 in 1 increments. There is another setting for a wire-activated step retard, primarily designed for use with nitrous oxide. Another great feature is for the forced induction crowd. When used with the optional MAP sensor, you can easily dial in a retard that is based on boost pressure. Twist in .1 - 1.9 of timing per pound of boost to retard the timing up to 30. If you ever need to bypass the modified timing settings, theres a dial to twist and the factory curve will be used."

Let us know which p/n they sent you and what they told you.
HTH

Patrick

jsolsona
04-23-2008, 12:05 PM
I originally order #86251 for the LS2 but the harness would not plug into the sensors or factory harness. According to MSD the 2005 & 2006 GTO (with LS2)still used the same sensors and harness (including reluctor wheel on crank) as the LS1 until about mid year 2006. Sure enough i returned the box and ordered the #8625 and it plugged right in but the car would only start on occassion and would sputter and back fire and also gave me a check engine light which said "Cam sensor" according to the scan tool on my predator. I have been going back and forth with MSD on this for a couple of months. Hope you have better luck than me.

RUQWKNF
04-23-2008, 01:43 PM
Ok, I just got off the phone with Dre at MSD.
Very helpful tech. He is the same tech that has been working with you. I have the scoop.

The issue is indeed the wiring harness and the crank sensor used on '05 & '06 GTOs. He said that pinouts A & C on both the male and female plugs for the crank sensor, need to be swapped out. Ala re-pinned. This is the solution for '05 - '06 GTOs with LS2 motors.
He said that they went to a local dealership, and took a virgin LS2 GTO off the lot and did their testing to verify this condition/solution. And it worked no problems.

In your case, he said that the box and harness that they sent you, has been re-pinned and should work perfectly.

He said that for others that get a 8625 box, to install it first. Start the car, if you get a Check Engine Light or misfire, to re-pin A & C on the male cam harness plug connector.

I'm glad I asked, cause I have heard a few grumblings from customers about this product, and all of them have given up on using it because of issues. He also mentioned that there are compatibility issues with it with the trucks as well, due to differences in the sensors themselves.
I mentioned that they should put a supplement letter in the box of the 8625 Timing Twisters, specifically talking about this issue on 2005 & 2006 GTOs with LS2 motors. I would even go so far as to include the pin remove/install tool free in the box. It might cost what, $.15 extra? Hopefully, they will do that and the word will spread. This is an excellent product and I know this is the reason why there are non on peoples cars, because of this issue.
Anywho, hope some of this helps a little.
Thanks for the heads up jsolsona. I'm gonna swap out mine here at work and do exactly as he said and see if it works.
Thanks Dre for the help on this issue.

Patrick

jsolsona
04-24-2008, 05:34 AM
Wow, thanks a bunch for the research. I think i will be able to get around to installing it this weekend and let you know if it works. Fingers are crossed. I have always had good experiences with the MSD products in the past and this thing has great features (timing retard for nitrous and timing advance for N/A power, etc) so i am looking forward to it actually working. Yeah, Dre has definatley been helpflull but they really should have done their homework before putting it on the market as it would have avoided some frustration.

Jose

jsolsona
05-05-2008, 06:33 AM
GOOD NEWS! I finally got around to installing the Twister with the new wiring harness from MSD and voila, it works. I guess three times the charm. Finally! The car starts right up and no check engine light. The LED lights up solid in the MSD box so looks like all is OK. I didn't get a chance to play with it but i will next weekend. Knowing how little timing these LS2 motors run from factory i am hoping this will make a noticeable difference and since i plan to spray it the timing retard function is also a godsend.

PS: Hope this helps out other Goat owners that you need to get a differenct harness from MSD in order for the Twister box to work correctly in the car.

mistermike
05-05-2008, 06:47 AM
I'm kind of wondering about why something like this exists when the timing is easily accessable in the ECM?

HSV-GTS-300
05-05-2008, 07:03 AM
The issue is indeed the wiring harness and the crank sensor used on '05 & '06 GTOs. He said that pinouts A & C on both the male and female plugs for the crank sensor, need to be swapped out. Ala re-pinned. This is the solution for '05 - '06 GTOs with LS2 motors.
He said that for others that get a 8625 box, to install it first. Start the car, if you get a Check Engine Light or misfire, to re-pin A & C on both the male and female connectors.


CAM sensor not crank sensor.

:secret:

ddawson
05-05-2008, 07:14 AM
I'm kind of wondering about why something like this exists when the timing is easily accessable in the ECM?

I'm wondering the same thing. Sounds great if you were building a dune buggy or something but my ECU has all programmed to control the timing.

HSV-GTS-300
05-05-2008, 07:40 AM
I'm kind of wondering about why something like this exists when the timing is easily accessable in the ECM?

Maybe for the guys who fit carburettors, distributors and spark boxes to LS1's. ie they dont run a proper ECU

jsolsona
05-07-2008, 01:16 PM
If you are running, say a Predator or other handheld tuner you can only advance timing a couple of degrees, 3 degrees at most i think. This lets you advance timing up to 9 dgrees. As you know timing is power. Second and most important you can retard the timing pretty much all you want if you put nitrous or a blower (12 volt activated timing retard function for nitrous) as it has the ability to read boost via a MAP sensor . I think you can retard timing somthing like 40 degrees if you want. You can do all this via a twist of the knob and no need to re-tune for good gas or changes in weather conditions, nitrous, etc...

mistermike
05-08-2008, 10:34 AM
If you are running, say a Predator or other handheld tuner you can only advance timing a couple of degrees, 3 degrees at most i think. This lets you advance timing up to 9 dgrees. No serious tuner would use a handheld programmer.

As you know timing is power. This is a common fallacy that if taken too far, blows up engines. Timing is not power. Detonation issues aside, increasing spark advance beyond that which causes peak cylinder pressure to occur at 15 deg ATDC +- reduces power.

Second and most important you can retard the timing pretty much all you want if you put nitrous or a blower (12 volt activated timing retard function for nitrous) as it has the ability to read boost via a MAP sensor . I think you can retard timing somthing like 40 degrees if you want. You can do all this via a twist of the knob and no need to re-tune for good gas or changes in weather conditions, nitrous, etc...
Any good tuning package such as EFI Live or HPT can do all of the above and actually be able to log the engine parameters required to make intelligent decisions about things like timing.

Gforce1320
05-08-2008, 11:09 AM
Hmm.. So HPtuners can retard timing when my 2nd stage of nitrous kicks in? I didn't see a way to do that, then again I didn't look very hard either.

jsolsona
05-08-2008, 11:44 AM
I am not 100% familiar with those software tuners but i doubt that they can pull timing when activating nitrous via a trigger. How does the software know when you are on the nitrous and when not? I think you missed the point that it seems to me that this thing makes it really easy to just add and remove timing on the fly as opposed to having to go back to your "tuner" everytime you wanted to change the timing for weather conditions or good gas or whatever. By the way do you consider me a "serious tuner" if i personaly tuned my V6 Buick to run 10.60 @ 125 with stock cast pistons, don't answer that cause i aint serious about anything in my life. Anyway just trying to be helpfull to the other board members about a product for our cars not promoting one product over the other.

Gforce1320
05-08-2008, 12:21 PM
I plan on getting the twister along with the LPM launch controller soon.

RUQWKNF
05-08-2008, 12:32 PM
GOOD NEWS! I finally got around to installing the Twister with the new wiring harness from MSD and voila, it works. I guess three times the charm. Finally! The car starts right up and no check engine light. The LED lights up solid in the MSD box so looks like all is OK. I didn't get a chance to play with it but i will next weekend. Knowing how little timing these LS2 motors run from factory i am hoping this will make a noticeable difference and since i plan to spray it the timing retard function is also a godsend.

PS: Hope this helps out other Goat owners that you need to get a differenct harness from MSD in order for the Twister box to work correctly in the car.


That is very good news to hear, as I will be installing mine here soon.
I see we have another Turbo Buick owner/racer here. Good deal. I learned my lesson with my old TSE class '86 T-Type. No more race car for me. :nonono:

And yes, HSV-GTS-300 I stand corrected. Cam it is. I was typing too fast. LOL

Thanks for the update jsolsona. I was wondering when you would get around to installing it and reporting back.
Thanks again.

Patrick

mistermike
05-08-2008, 03:07 PM
Hmm.. So HPtuners can retard timing when my 2nd stage of nitrous kicks in? I didn't see a way to do that, then again I didn't look very hard either.
Not sure on HPT, but EFI Live custom O/S can utilize switch closure and / or MAP to guide other events. The second stage N2O is probably getting further off the beaten path and would require something like the MSD to really get it dialed in nicely.

I didn't get the impression from the OP, particularly given his comparison with Predator's capabilities, that he was doing anything that elaborate.

mistermike
05-08-2008, 03:12 PM
I am not 100% familiar with those software tuners but i doubt that they can pull timing when activating nitrous via a trigger. How does the software know when you are on the nitrous and when not? I think you missed the point that it seems to me that this thing makes it really easy to just add and remove timing on the fly as opposed to having to go back to your "tuner" everytime you wanted to change the timing for weather conditions or good gas or whatever. By the way do you consider me a "serious tuner" if i personaly tuned my V6 Buick to run 10.60 @ 125 with stock cast pistons, don't answer that cause i aint serious about anything in my life. Anyway just trying to be helpfull to the other board members about a product for our cars not promoting one product over the other.


For the most part, the software tuners are going to give you a good deal more flexibility in adapting to special circumstances, but perhaps more importantly, the ability to log various systems to aid in the decision making process. Ref post above. If you got a stock block Buick into the 10's without such tools, then my hat's off to you. It's not an easy task, nor one for the faint of heart. +10 on not being serious. LOL.

jsolsona
05-12-2008, 07:30 AM
Well guys it looks like unfortunatley it may be back to the drawing board. After driving the car for a while the SES light is flashing when the car is at a steady cruise. When driving aroung town the light stays off. When i check the code it says "RANDOM MISFIRE". Now, the car seems to be running fine and i don't sence that it has a misfire but sure enough when i clear the code and drive it again , same thing. I bypassed the MSD box and no SES light so it has to be the box. I will call Dre at MSD again today and give him the news. I am about to throw in the towel but going to give it one last shot. It's a shame cause my buddy has this installed on his Ls1 powered vette which has gone 11.05 at 122 on a 175 shot (no internal engine work) and he swears by this box!

mistermike: Yeah going mid 10's with a stock shortblock and ported stock iron heads isn't easy with only 231 cubes and 3680 lb. race weight (this is a full weight street car) but boost is a wonderfull thing and of course an occassional blown head gsket is the price of doing business at 30 lbs of boost! I tune with an EGT and a wide band 02 and run C16 when turning up the boost and trust me you WIILL NOT DETONATE WITH 116 OCTANE!

Freedom_Fighter
05-12-2008, 05:35 PM
I talked with dre at MSD today around 3 pm and he said I need to ( return ) swap my Ls2 version for the Ls1 version. Install it, and IF it throws any codes to do the A & C pin swap. I just dunno what to really think or do at this point..

HSV-GTS-300
05-12-2008, 05:51 PM
The issue is indeed the wiring harness and the crank sensor used on '05 & '06 GTOs. He said that pinouts A & C on both the male and female plugs for the crank sensor, need to be swapped out. Ala re-pinned. This is the solution for '05 - '06 GTOs with LS2 motors.

Mate think about it.....if you swap A&C on both the male and female, you're not achieving anything. Draw yourself a diagram if you need to.

Just swap A&C on the male cam harness plug.

:popcorn2:

RUQWKNF
05-14-2008, 05:30 AM
Yep, I stand corrected. Just repeating what Dre said. But you're right, swapping both male and female A & C wires would just be changing wire color. :nonono:

I'll be installing mine soon myself and if need be, I'll swap only the male connector A & C wires.
Good catch HSV-GTS-300.


Patrick

BubbaDuss
05-14-2008, 05:36 AM
i was thinking the same thing. you can't swap both or you will end up exactly where you started.

WilsonSSS04
05-15-2008, 07:17 AM
Well I'm in the market for one of these... doesn't sound promising.

Freedom, if you want I will buy yours instead of sending it back. I need the LS2 box anyways. Let me know.

HSV-GTS-300
05-15-2008, 08:00 AM
I need the LS2 box anyways. Let me know.

You might want to check with the Manufacturer which box you need.

As far as the 05 & 06 GTO's go....they run 1x cam reluctors and 24x crank reluctors the same as LS1's.

All the LS2 engines made after 1 Jan 2006 run 4x cam and 58x reluctors. There are none of these in GTO's.
It's most likely that the LS2 box was designed for these 4x/58x engines.

RUQWKNF
05-15-2008, 01:34 PM
I believe this is why Dre at MSD told us to use the 8625 box on '05 - '06 GTOs and to do the wire swap on the cam harness plug. See my reply #4.

I also mentioned to him that they should put a supplement notice in the box explaining this issue. Dre said he would submit the request. Officially from MSD, the 86251 will not work on '05 - '06 GTOs with the LS2 because of what HSV-GTS-300 just mentioned above.
HTH

Patrick