Never liked K&N

[sxty8goats]

I never liked K&N. Especialy when people say things like "They filter better as they get dirtier". That always sounded like clogging to me. Check out these guys, Has anyone used their products? There are some interesting articals in the side bar...

http://www.performancemotoroil.com/KN_test
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[DevilYellow]

Its all propaganda ... they say foam is good, other guys say cotton is better

[GTOJ]

I agree with that statement.

[DANSLS1]

I read a bunch of filter tests posted on ls1tech.com a while back, and the results were paper flows and filters as good as, if not better than, cotton or foam. Any results quoted are due to opening up or smoothing the flow in - not from the filter itself. That's why I'm sticking with the stock box until somebody comes up with a better CAI that uses the stock-type filter.
Dan

[AmesGTO]

The first K&N I ever installed was on a 97 Dodge Ram Cummin Turbo Diesel. When we put that filter on you could hear a higher pitched whine from the turbo when you get on it. If anyone heard that truck before and after the K&N there would be no doubt in their mind that the K&N allows the engine to breath better.

[sxty8goats]

The first K&N I ever installed was on a 97 Dodge Ram Cummin Turbo Diesel. When we put that filter on you could hear a higher pitched whine from the turbo when you get on it. If anyone heard that truck before and after the K&N there would be no doubt in their mind that the K&N allows the engine to breath better.

I don't disagree that the K&N's flow more air. I just wonder at what cost? I'm with Dan on this one, I was hoping that the foamies might give us the best of both worlds. I am looking to upgrade my induction and I'd hate to turn my filter into a sand blaster.. That and all the talk of the "oil in the mass air flow sensor" stuff that is going around..
.

[DANSLS1]

No offense, but I don't take louder as flowing more air. The tests were set up with a stock-type paper filter and a k&n in a lab situation (specifically the f-body setup, IIRC). With all else being equal - the filter itself did not let more air flow through. Did you put the K&N directly in the stock airbox on the dodge, or did you also get a better box / intake tube?
Dan

[AmesGTO]

No offense, but I don't take louder as flowing more air. The tests were set up with a stock-type paper filter and a k&n in a lab situation (specifically the f-body setup, IIRC). With all else being equal - the filter itself did not let more air flow through. Did you put the K&N directly in the stock airbox on the dodge, or did you also get a better box / intake tube?
Dan

What would you attribute the turbo whine to? You can only hear it from 2/3 of the rpm to the top end of the rpm range. How can you say the filter doesn't let more air flow in? Yes it was a replacement for the stock filter in the stock box. We had other guys with the same engine in their truck ride in or drive our truck and right away notice the difference.

In my GTP I switched it to a K&N and it had no noticable effect of any kind. Same for my Trailblazer. In my Firebird it made a difference both in engine feel and in exhaust. All three were drop in replacements for the stock filter.

In my GTO it made a very noticable difference, but that one had LS1Speeds induction kit also.

[Warren]

In the world I lived in before I got my GTO, they absolute consensus best air filter to get is a K&N. Of course this was for ATV applications. After installing on my Z-400 and re-jetting, I noticed a LARGE power gain. Put one on the Arctic Cat and the Quadzilla also has one. And the die hard duners run them on their buggies too - have one on mine (it was on there when I bought it). I do not totally buy into the claim that they get better when they get dirty though, and after any serious duning I always filtercharge them. Of course I am talking about fine grits of sand that you would never see with an automobile, so that is probably a little different.

[DANSLS1]

What would you attribute the turbo whine to? You can only hear it from 2/3 of the rpm to the top end of the rpm range. How can you say the filter doesn't let more air flow in? Yes it was a replacement for the stock filter in the stock box. We had other guys with the same engine in their truck ride in or drive our truck and right away notice the difference.

In my GTP I switched it to a K&N and it had no noticable effect of any kind. Same for my Trailblazer. In my Firebird it made a difference both in engine feel and in exhaust. All three were drop in replacements for the stock filter.

In my GTO it made a very noticable difference, but that one had LS1Speeds induction kit also.

Maybe it depends on the filter size. When I get home I'll try to see if I can find the links over there. Like I said, the study happened to be specifically on the LS1 - so I figured it was most applicable to our situation.
I also plan on keeping this car (and motor) hopefully for a long time. Even if I sacrifice a little performance for it, I'll take the better filtering to keep particles out of my engine. I'm not necessarily trying to convince anybody what is right or wrong - I just think there are too many 'mod-sheep' out there that jump on every change just because other people do it and some of them don't help - or actually hurt - their situation.
Dan

[AmesGTO]

Maybe it depends on the filter size. When I get home I'll try to see if I can find the links over there. Like I said, the study happened to be specifically on the LS1 - so I figured it was most applicable to our situation.
I also plan on keeping this car (and motor) hopefully for a long time. Even if I sacrifice a little performance for it, I'll take the better filtering to keep particles out of my engine. I'm not necessarily trying to convince anybody what is right or wrong - I just think there are too many 'mod-sheep' out there that jump on every change just because other people do it and some of them don't help - or actually hurt - their situation.
Dan

I'm with you on that. I should have mentioned the first week I had my GTO I bought a K&N replacement filter for the stock box. It made no noticable difference at all. I was suprised because it did make a difference on my Firebird (it's a 91 though so no LS1).

Personally I think the K&N properly oiled will do as good or a better job of filtering than the stock filter. I think Warren summed that up well. Guys that run their toys hard tend to know what does and doesn't work. Whether it makes a performance difference varies by application and maybe it always let's a little more air through, but in some applications it's not enough to notice.

I looked at the MAF when I was replacing the stock filter with the K&N and I found some strand hair like junk on the MAF screen. I didn't see anything after running the K&N for several weeks. I also have checked the MAF screen after running the LS1Speed kit for several weeks and saw nothing. Maybe this was a fluke thing, I actually wonder if it was part of the filter, but either way I have never seen anything to make me think the stock filters better than a K&N.

I don't buy into the "lab" tests of air filters because I wasn't the one oiling the K&N. For all we know they had it too dry or they got a bad filter. True testing would mean testing a lot of filters off the line and getting average numbers.

Likewise when I have seen the oil filter tests I ignore the part where they test the filtering capabilities and I just look at the part where they talk about construction of the filter and design of the filter.

That's just my 2 cents, or today it seems more like 10 cents.

[Warren]

I put a K&N in my GTO at 115 miles, so if it did make a difference, I would not have known anyway. I did not notice any difference when I put one in my Silverado either. The main reason I put one in there is I lived on a dirt road, and after the 4th air filter, decided to invest in a reuseable one. Not exactly 10 cents, but close to 5.

[AmesGTO]

I put a K&N in my GTO at 115 miles, so if it did make a difference, I would not have known anyway. I did not notice any difference when I put one in my Silverado either. The main reason I put one in there is I lived on a dirt road, and after the 4th air filter, decided to invest in a reuseable one. Not exactly 10 cents, but close to 5.

I forgot about my Z-71, yeah that made no difference either. So my complete list of cars I've tried a K&N on would be:
91 Firebird - Worked well
98 Monte Z34 - Worked well
00 Z-71 - no diff
02 Trailblazer - no diff
03 GTP - no diff
04 GTO stock box - no diff
04 GTO induction kit - Worked well

The strange thing is the Monte Z34 and the GTP have the same engine, except the GTP has the supercharger. I thought the supercharger would really like the K&N. I don't remember if the monte had the same intake design or placement though. For all I know the GTP came with a better stock filter than the Z34.

[FLORIT]

Bah Bah Bah... I'm a "mod sheep" if there ever was one.

I looked at the MAF when I was replacing the stock filter with the K&N and I found some strand hair like junk on the MAF screen. I didn't see anything after running the K&N for several weeks.

I had the opposite experience, Ames. My MAF was clean as a whistle before I installed the Speed Inc. HFI (CAI, whatever you want to call it.) After subsequent inspections, I have noticed "strands" and other "junk" on the MAF screen. Made me real glad I did not "de-screen" the MAF.

I also admit to not noticing much of a difference between the stock setup and the Speed Inc. HFI. Of course, 350HP +/- 5 to 10HP would be difficult for a novice like myself to detect.

[sxty8goats]

So apart from better air flow, dose anyone beleive that they preform well as a filter? I'm not willing to risk my engine for 12 hp. Or am I just being too anal. Should I just order a CIA and be done with it?

[AmesGTO]

So apart from better air flow, dose anyone beleive that they preform well as a filter? I'm not willing to risk my engine for 12 hp. Or am I just being too anal. Should I just order a CIA and be done with it?

There are plenty of other things to break on a car. I wouldn't worry about it.

I have never heard anyone with the induction kit say they didn't like it and go back to stock. But, now that I have said it...

Just get the induction kit and have fun. You'll enjoy it. I'd get it just for the slight change in exhaust sound and the little extra cackle when you let off. But then again I drove around in the Iowa winter with my window down to hear the exhaust.

[FLORIT]

But then again I drove around in the Iowa winter with my window down to hear the exhaust.

Now THERE is a Goat lover. :D

[sxty8goats]

The crackle does get me hard.... I'll have to drive down to Speed Inc in Schumburg and pick one up... But I just saw this..
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2069&highlight=induction
Carbon fiber piece of art.. Now I am awaiting an email from New Zealand...

[AmesGTO]

The crackle does get me hard.... I'll have to drive down to Speed Inc in Schumburg and pick one up... But I just saw this..
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2069&highlight=induction
Carbon fiber piece of art.. Now I am awaiting an email from New Zealand...

I actually have one of those now... It's beyond description, very sweet. I have a black one on now. I'm going to sell it when my red one gets here.

[sxty8goats]

I actually have one of those now... It's beyond description, very sweet. I have a black one on now. I'm going to sell it when my red one gets here.

I just emailed them asking for a pic of the red one. Do you have a pic? How lond did it take to get it from NZ?

[AmesGTO]

I just emailed them asking for a pic of the red one. Do you have a pic? How lond did it take to get it from NZ?

I had a pic of the red, it looked really good. I deleted the pic last night though. I can send a pic of the black in my GTO. I'll have my red next week. It takes them a couple of weeks to make and at least a week to get here.

[Hardware]

Did you guys ever see the K&N counter display where you can switch out a paper filter with a K&N? I always thought that was a impressive marketing item.

(it measures air flow with a ping pong ball)

[mistermike]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.h tm

[sxty8goats]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.h tm
Great link MisterMike. It conferms what I believed.

AmesGTO did you ever get dyno numbers after installing the tube w/ a factory air box and Filter combo?

[FLORIT]

Yeah, good link mistermike. I only read the first page (test methods and conclusions) and it sounded like he did a good test. His conclusions support my personal observations... that the High Flow Induction kit did not "feel" like it made a difference in performance. (How unscientific can I be? :) )

[mistermike]

I really kind of have my hopes pinned on the forthcoming SLP system. If they do a lid, pipe and Donaldson filter similar to what they have done for other cars, it may be just about ideal. The Donaldsons are like OEM paper filters, but use a synthetic media that gives them better control over the fibers. Supposedly better flow and filtration at the same time. I believe that getting smooth, unwrinkled flow to the TB and plenty of unrestricted, cool air to the filter constitute the crux of the improvements that are to be had.

[AmesGTO]

Great link MisterMike. It conferms what I believed.

AmesGTO did you ever get dyno numbers after installing the tube w/ a factory air box and Filter combo?

What numbers did you want to see? The airflow numbers are pretty hard to compare. I logged air temp data on Warrens car for 5 mins at idle while he still had the airbox. I did the same on my car with the induction kit a day later, but at similar ambient temps. They both climbed to similar temps. The induction kit climbed faster, but only went 4 degrees higher than the stock. The stock took 2.5 mins to level off at it's high, the induction kit was there in about 1 min.

I have other logged data where I just drove around and you can see the temps move around. I was going to post this data and then I decided the guys that think the induction kits suck will probably continue to think that no matter what so who cares. If you really want to see it let me know.

[mistermike]

I suspect the induction kit lives up to its dyno numbers. SpeedInc is certainly a reputable outfit. I would just attribute the gains to smoother, unobstructed flow more so than the filter element itself. I would attribute the induction kit's quicker recovery from heat soak to its lower thermal mass. Less stuff to heat up and cool down.

[sxty8goats]

AmsGTO,

I was wondering if you had any HP/Toque gains with just the pipe. Craig from CSProformance sent me some jpgs of the red pipe last night. All I can say is
"Dhllllnmmmmmmm Red Pipe...." (wipe drool from chin)

MisterMike,

AmsGTO has a diferent pipe than the Speed setup. He is running a carbon fiber tube to his factory airbox. Looks sweet. I was hoping he was seeing equivalant or near gains. I don't think it matters though, It looks too good and If I need to I can always find a cone filter to fit on the end of that pipe..

Weeks to produce and a week to ship.... Oh well. Time does pass.

[AmesGTO]

AmsGTO,

I was wondering if you had any HP/Toque gains with just the pipe. Craig from CSProformance sent me some jpgs of the red pipe last night. All I can say is
"Dhllllnmmmmmmm Red Pipe...." (wipe drool from chin)

MisterMike,

AmsGTO has a diferent pipe than the Speed setup. He is running a carbon fiber tube to his factory airbox. Looks sweet. I was hoping he was seeing equivalant or near gains. I don't think it matters though, It looks too good and If I need to I can always find a cone filter to fit on the end of that pipe..

Weeks to produce and a week to ship.... Oh well. Time does pass.

I couldn't tell you about gains with the stock box. I never ran it that setup. I think it would have to help both this pipe and LS1Speeds pipe have very good curves, no accordian, and no crimping.

It turns out I like to change a lot of things on this car for fun. I went through this progression:
K&N Stock replacement filter
LS1 Speed Induction Kit
CS Performance Pipe on the filter that came with the LS1Speed kit

I posted a couple of good pics of my underhood setup in the vBGarage so take a look. I'll update when I get the red one in. Here is a really small version of whats in the vBGarage:
http://www.redgto.com/LS1GTO.COM/images/CSsmall.jp g

[Dbluegoat]

I couldn't tell you about gains with the stock box. I never ran it that setup. I think it would have to help both this pipe and LS1Speeds pipe have very good curves, no accordian, and no crimping.

It turns out I like to change a lot of things on this car for fun. I went through this progression:
K&N Stock replacement filter
LS1 Speed Induction Kit
CS Performance Pipe on the filter that came with the LS1Speed kit

I posted a couple of good pics of my underhood setup in the vBGarage so take a look. I'll update when I get the red one in. Here is a really small version of whats in the vBGarage:
http://www.redgto.com/LS1GTO.COM/images/CSsmall.jp g

Ames how long did it take you to get the CS Pipe after you ordered it? I ordered one on 4/20 and have not heard anything back from the guy yet.
BTW I will post some pics of the nology wires later today.

[mistermike]

My money is on the good pipe with stock box posting decent gains, especially if you let more air into the box like 1coolpc, and modify the lid. http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2226
I don't know if the turbulence is as low as just a pipe, but it's smooth close to the throttle body where it counts.

[AmesGTO]

Ames how long did it take you to get the CS Pipe after you ordered it? I ordered one on 4/20 and have not heard anything back from the guy yet.
BTW I will post some pics of the nology wires later today.

I actually ordered mine a long time ago, like 1.5-2 months ago, but he was having trouble getting the red pipes to turn out well so he sent a black pipe. My red one should have shipped out today. In general he said a couple of weeks to make it and 1.5 weeks from ship date to arrival in the US. I'd plan on 3-4 weeks from order date to get it.

[sxty8goats]

I actually ordered mine a long time ago, like 1.5-2 months ago, but he was having trouble getting the red pipes to turn out well so he sent a black pipe. My red one should have shipped out today. In general he said a couple of weeks to make it and 1.5 weeks from ship date to arrival in the US. I'd plan on 3-4 weeks from order date to get it.

That is about what I expect. I was actualy giving him 5. He sent me a pic of the red pipe he was getting ready to ship, could be yours....

[rushhour]

Ames - what does the CS pipe cost with the shipping?

[sxty8goats]

Ames - what does the CS pipe cost with the shipping?

Check here: http://www.andy-saunders.co.uk/csperformance/#Start

I just ordered mine rushhour, CS figures the price vs. the dailey exchange rate (US Dollar Vs. New Zealand). Mine was @ $165. US, shipped. The carbon fiber/ Black is @ 6$ cheeper. They have Red, Gold, Green and the Clasic..Black.

[rushhour]

Thanks for the info. By the way if you are going to sell the black one - when the red one comes in PM me - I need a black one anyway - so might as well get it from a member of the group.

[desertgoat]

I was going to put a K&N Performance Filter on my Chevy Avalanche until I saw a thread in the F Body Forums (ironically while looking for more performance mods for my Camaro) about GM issuing a warning and notice to all of its dealers about "improperly oiled reusable filters clogging up the MAF and sending error codes to the engine".

GM went as far as to say that the dealer should inspect for the presence of any reusable filters and if there is any doubt that an improperly oiled filter caused the problem, then they are not obligated to repair under warranty. Now I have no idea what "improperly" means and it sounds like a very subjective and open ended term designed to give dealers a carte blanche ticket to renege on warranty repairs.

So the question I am weighing now is does K & N add enough measurable performance gains to justify risk of oiling up my MAF and voiding my warranty?

[AmesGTO]

I was going to put a K&N Performance Filter on my Chevy Avalanche until I saw a thread in the F Body Forums (ironically while looking for more performance mods for my Camaro) about GM issuing a warning and notice to all of its dealers about "improperly oiled reusable filters clogging up the MAF and sending error codes to the engine".

GM went as far as to say that the dealer should inspect for the presence of any reusable filters and if there is any doubt that an improperly oiled filter caused the problem, then they are not obligated to repair under warranty. Now I have no idea what "improperly" means and it sounds like a very subjective and open ended term designed to give dealers a carte blanche ticket to renege on warranty repairs.

So the question I am weighing now is does K & N add enough measurable performance gains to justify risk of oiling up my MAF and voiding my warranty?

That bulletin was posted on here also. I think it has to be very over oiled to be a problem. I wouldn't worry about the bulletin either. If they do or don't want to warranty having a bulletin doesn't add any more legal rights for GM. I've had a K&N in a lot of cars and never had a problem.