Limit of 60lb injectors and 255 Pump?

[SOMBV]

What the Power Limit of 60lb Injectors and a 255 Pump? Trying to figure out if I can live with these for awhile with the new setup.

Setup now 402/Maggie 112. On the Fuel Pressure gauge Ive never seen it go below 60psi no matter what?
Numbers Now 585/618

Basically how far can I push this setup before going to return style Fuel System with Dual Pumps

[pbmgoat]

I think the limit is around 650ish, give or take. If your seeing 60psi of fuel pressure, your pretty much perfect. Hell I drop below 60psi with boltons on stock pump. If anything I would throw on a boost a pump just to be safe.

[SOFAKINGGR8]

What the Power Limit of 60lb Injectors and a 255 Pump? Trying to figure out if I can live with these for awhile with the new setup.

Setup now 402/Maggie 112. On the Fuel Pressure gauge Ive never seen it go below 60psi no matter what?
Numbers Now 585/618

Basically how far can I push this setup before going to return style Fuel System with Dual Pumps

:hrjd:Im curious about a simular set up also....low impedence 72 lb'ers and single walbro. forged 365ci twin turbo ..how far can i go. i made my numbers below only b/c of lots of meth i think

[SOMBV]

Guess Im going to need to upgrade the whole system.
New Setup is Custom S88 Kit

[rednari]

Your fine. Most injectors (GM type) produce the maximum at 40-45 lbs of pressure. Meaning you get maximum fuel delivery at the nozzle with 45lbs or a little less from the pump. So, even if your pressure drops to say 56 lbs at WOT, you are well above the pressure needed for maximum fuel delivery.

[Fraser@speedinc]

adding a return line in will give you increased capacity, and should be on any boosted combination over ie 600rwhp.

I've seen people go 875rwhp with 60s.

Their is 80lbs/hr motron injectors due very soon.

low impedance injectors I wouldn't recommend.

[Fraser@speedinc]

Your fine. Most injectors (GM type) produce the maximum at 40-45 lbs of pressure. Meaning you get maximum fuel delivery at the nozzle with 45lbs or a little less from the pump. So, even if your pressure drops to say 56 lbs at WOT, you are well above the pressure needed for maximum fuel delivery.

If the fuel pressure drops only tells me your sucking up air, and no if the set fuel pressure isn't met you have problems.

[ericwilloughby]

I have Siemens 62's from RPMOUTLET. What pressure are they rated at? If they open up full they drain my Walbro 340, (255 lph) below 50 psi.

[Fraser@speedinc]

I have Siemens 62's from RPMOUTLET. What pressure are they rated at? If they open up full they drain my Walbro 340, (255 lph) below 50 psi.

Injectors are rated at 43.5 PSI of rail pressure

The volume made at 58psi is 70lbs/hr; 85psi yields 87lbs/hr

This is why boost referenced regulator is so important.

What is the capacity? are you using the factory GTO bucket and jet pump, around 580-600rwhp.

[Perdieu]

adding a return line in will give you increased capacity, and should be on any boosted combination over ie 600rwhp.

I've seen people go 875rwhp with 60s.

Their is 80lbs/hr motron injectors due very soon.

low impedance injectors I wouldn't recommend.


I'm getting ready to test the 875hp number once the new fuel pump and line are done..

got anymore info on the 80lb injectors.. sound like just what i'm going to be looking for soon.

[mygto]

So can 60s on a boost reference return style system handle 750rwhp? I was told to do 79's with a versafueler.

[Fraser@speedinc]

got anymore info on the 80lb injectors.. sound like just what i'm going to be looking for soon.

We recently ran them in a C6Z06 900rwhp with the first set we had available. UScar connector LS1 dimension.

So can 60s on a boost reference return style system handle 750rwhp? I was told to do 79's with a versafueler.


Why use 79 low Z injectors when you can source Lucas 79lbs injectors high Z all day long that will work with your factory computer?

I'm at 735rwhp with 60lbs hr injectors, and twin walbro pumps with an Aeromotive regulator.

Very soon versafuellers will be like beta max, completely obsolete.

We recently ran 100lbs/hr high impedance bosch motorsport injectors; the retail price on this set is $4,000 very soon will be a manufactured item and the price will drop 75% i'm told. They're LS2 style injector.

[mygto]

Why use 79 low Z injectors when you can source Lucas 79lbs injectors high Z all day long that will work with your factory computer?

I'm at 735rwhp with 60lbs hr injectors, and twin walbro pumps with an Aeromotive regulator.

Very soon versafuellers will be like beta max, completely obsolete.

We recently ran 100lbs/hr high impedance bosch motorsport injectors; the retail price on this set is $4,000 very soon will be a manufactured item and the price will drop 75% i'm told. They're LS2 style injector.[/QUOTE]

Well that is what I was told I would need. The last shop who tuned my car told me that the ls2 stock computer would only handle the 60lb injectors.... But that is also the same shop that didn't reset my low octane table too.:bomb:

[ericwilloughby]

Injectors are rated at 43.5 PSI of rail pressure

The volume made at 58psi is 70lbs/hr; 85psi yields 87lbs/hr

This is why boost referenced regulator is so important.

What is the capacity? are you using the factory GTO bucket and jet pump, around 580-600rwhp.

Thanks, cool. I thought they were rated for whatever pressure system they were designed for. I.E. Ford green tops rated at 3 bar. LS1 rated at 4 bar. Not true?

[SOFAKINGGR8]

We recently ran them in a C6Z06 900rwhp with the first set we had available. UScar connector LS1 dimension.




Why use 79 low Z injectors when you can source Lucas 79lbs injectors high Z all day long that will work with your factory computer?

I'm at 735rwhp with 60lbs hr injectors, and twin walbro pumps with an Aeromotive regulator.

Very soon versafuellers will be like beta max, completely obsolete.

We recently ran 100lbs/hr high impedance bosch motorsport injectors; the retail price on this set is $4,000 very soon will be a manufactured item and the price will drop 75% i'm told. They're LS2 style injector.

to make that 735 whp, did that require anything else like rails, or a return system...? my goal is 600whp as safe as possible

[SOFAKINGGR8]

Why use 79 low Z injectors when you can source Lucas 79lbs injectors high Z all day long that will work with your factory computer?

I'm at 735rwhp with 60lbs hr injectors, and twin walbro pumps with an Aeromotive regulator.

Very soon versafuellers will be like beta max, completely obsolete.

We recently ran 100lbs/hr high impedance bosch motorsport injectors; the retail price on this set is $4,000 very soon will be a manufactured item and the price will drop 75% i'm told. They're LS2 style injector.

Well that is what I was told I would need. The last shop who tuned my car told me that the ls2 stock computer would only handle the 60lb injectors.... But that is also the same shop that didn't reset my low octane table too.:bomb:[/QUOTE]

im running 72lb'ers low impedence, and that required resistor boxes to make it compatible with the stock ecu

[tmbutitta]

fraser,


were my injectors shipped with everything else, or are we still waiting on those? and what exactly are the ones i picked up?

[rednari]

If the fuel pressure drops only tells me your sucking up air, and no if the set fuel pressure isn't met you have problems.

I have two problems with this answer. First, if the fuel module is covered in gasoline, which is all the time unless the tank is very low, no air can get into the system.

Second, a pressure drop of say 60lbs to 56lbs indates fuel being consumed at WOT and the pump being unable maintain an even 60 lbs due to fuel consumption. It is not due to sucking air.

Third, all GTOs I am aware of have small pressure drops under WOT. A slight drop in pressure is not critical because the injectors will still provide 60lbs of fuel per hour at 45 lbs of line pressure. Do not confuse line pressure poundage with fuel injector delivery poundage.

Therefore, upgrading the injectors to higher poundage types, is not necessary for his HP requirements.

[mistermike]

I have two problems with this answer. First, if the fuel module is covered in gasoline, which is all the time unless the tank is very low, no air can get into the system.

Second, a pressure drop of say 60lbs to 56lbs indates fuel being consumed at WOT and the pump being unable maintain an even 60 lbs due to fuel consumption. It is not due to sucking air.

Third, all GTOs I am aware of have small pressure drops under WOT. A slight drop in pressure is not critical because the injectors will still provide 60lbs of fuel per hour at 45 lbs of line pressure. Do not confuse line pressure poundage with fuel injector delivery poundage.

Therefore, upgrading the injectors to higher poundage types, is not necessary for his HP requirements.

By air, Fraser was probably referring to fuel vapor caused by cavitation, and it's a very real problem with the stock system. It might as well be air because it blows up motors just as quickly. Much below 1/4 tank, and it IS air, because the inlet venturi can't keep up with demand.

From a tuning perspective, any pressure drop at the rails is a bad thing. Yes, you can "tune around" it in the same sense you "eat around" a piece of spoiled meat, but it doesn't inspire confidence, especially when it's inconsistant. A conservative tuner will run richer than he otherwise would, when he doesn't trust the fuel system. My setup first time out was running 60 Lb injectors into the 90% range at a surprisingly low power level. PD blowers will do that to a system where the regulator is 15 feet from the rails.

Voltage boosters, modified pumps, buckets, etc are no substitute for a boost referenced regulator under the hood. It's a different world when you IFR chart was drawn with a bubble level.

[hellbents10]

800whp is not a problem with 60's and a return style sytem, all though the 255 will not make it there.

[ericwilloughby]

I have two problems with this answer. First, if the fuel module is covered in gasoline, which is all the time unless the tank is very low, no air can get into the system.

Second, a pressure drop of say 60lbs to 56lbs indates fuel being consumed at WOT and the pump being unable maintain an even 60 lbs due to fuel consumption. It is not due to sucking air.

Third, all GTOs I am aware of have small pressure drops under WOT. A slight drop in pressure is not critical because the injectors will still provide 60lbs of fuel per hour at 45 lbs of line pressure. Do not confuse line pressure poundage with fuel injector delivery poundage.

Therefore, upgrading the injectors to higher poundage types, is not necessary for his HP requirements.


Me too. But I was just going to let it go. Everyone on this board is big on drilling the bucket. I call BS. The inlet at the bottom is by far not the only way for fuel to get into it. There are a couple of big ass holes at the top.....ect. Like's been said, want to test your fuel system, let it drop below 1/4 tank.

My 62's will put a 10 psi drop on the returnless....I don't need to run them that hard though. I wish these cars had a return system like the Camaro used to. This design can be worked around but it sucks. Pun :)

[Fraser@speedinc]

I have two problems with this answer. First, if the fuel module is covered in gasoline, which is all the time unless the tank is very low, no air can get into the system.

You can suck the fuel out of the bucket quicker then it can return, just ask Chris White.

Main reason why people have used the 8.1 bucket for example which I believe has 2 venturi's in the bucket vs. GTO's 1.


Second, a pressure drop of say 60lbs to 56lbs indates fuel being consumed at WOT and the pump being unable maintain an even 60 lbs due to fuel consumption. It is not due to sucking air.

I'm sure a small drop like that is ok, we've seen it before, thats what a regulator is for. When fuel pressure drops to say 45psi, thats when you see the wideband go 14:1.

The intank regulator is designed to maintain 58psi, if fuel pressure drops, you've overcome the output of the pump/bucket, how else could you describe that?

If that doesn't make sense explain to me why a procharged GTO at 550rwhp has the A/F go lean at 6000rpm, with 60lbs/hr injectors @ 110% duty cycle and stock intank pump?

[mygto]

800whp is not a problem with 60's and a return style sytem, all though the 255 will not make it there.

Is that without using meth on a Fi application?

[Fraser@speedinc]

to make that 735 whp, did that require anything else like rails, or a return system...? my goal is 600whp as safe as possible


I installed billet fuel rails, more so to make for easier installation of the regulator.

Used the factory feed line as a return line, and an Aeromotive 13109 regulator. Its fed by two inline walbro pumps.

I'm sure I could run a single walbro and a return line off the factory fuel rails w/ regulator, to cover 750rwhp.

Whats the safest thing you can add to a force induction fuel system? a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator.

[ericwilloughby]

The intank regulator is designed to maintain 58psi, if fuel pressure drops, you've overcome the output of the pump/bucket, how else could you describe that?

If that doesn't make sense explain to me why a procharged GTO at 550rwhp has the A/F go lean at 6000rpm, with 60lbs/hr injectors @ 110% duty cycle and stock intank pump?


Uh, no. It is of course possible to over task your pump, but one can have a very capable pump and bucket and because the regulator is in the tank very easily loose 10 psi by the time it gets to the injectors. You could have a big ass pump and 60 psi at the outlet of the regulator and if the flow out the end is huge have 0 psi there.

[cquist]

MY Fp is about at 64 all the time. 86% duty cycle on the 60's. They are fine. The 340 though is at its limits. I have burned it up before by allowing fuel inthe tank under 1/4. I would say anything much higher than 600rwhp a return is a must.

[Steel Chicken]

A slight drop in pressure is not critical because the injectors will still provide 60lbs of fuel per hour at 45 lbs of line pressure.

Ummm, no.

Injectors will not provide the same exact amount of fuel at 45 psi as they will at 60.

[Fraser@speedinc]

It is of course possible to over task your pump, but one can have a very capable pump and bucket

The bucket is fed by a venturi feed, are you saying the fuel bucket is not a problem and good for infinite amounts of fuel flow?

and because the regulator is in the tank very easily loose 10 psi by the time it gets to the injectors. You could have a big ass pump and 60 psi at the outlet of the regulator and if the flow out the end is huge have 0 psi there.

True, the regulator, regulates the intank pump, still loosing 10 psi after the regulator is doomed for failure. Not according to Rednari.

[ericwilloughby]

The bucket is fed by a venturi feed, are you saying the fuel bucket is not a problem and good for infinite amounts of fuel flow?



True, the regulator, regulates the intank pump, still loosing 10 psi after the regulator is doomed for failure. Not according to Rednari.

As long as you maintain at least 1/4 tank of fuel, yes. The venturi's purpose is to keep the bucket full even though the tank level may be empty.

It's certainly not doomed for failure. It just delivers less pressure. 3 bar works just fine for a Mustang, it'll work for a LS. Just makes it less accurate to tune.

There are large holes in the top of the bucket here and here. As long as the fuel stays over them....


http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=101048&stc=1&d=1234893974

[mistermike]

As long as you maintain at least 1/4 tank of fuel, yes. The venturi's purpose is to keep the bucket full even though the tank level may be empty.

It's certainly not doomed for failure. It just delivers less pressure. 3 bar works just fine for a Mustang, it'll work for a LS. Just makes it less accurate to tune.

There are large holes in the top of the bucket here and here. As long as the fuel stays over them....



Even with a full tank of fuel, the stock pump is barely adequate for a stock motor. Increasing the size of the pump or overdriving it with a voltage booster increases the chance of cavitation. It may not show up on a dyno pull or a 1/4 mi run, but if you're a circle track racer, you better have a spare motor or two handy. This is why serious racers use oversized feeds on the low pressure side of a fuel pump.

The venturi is completely incapable of keeping the bucket full at high demand, once it's no longer fed from the top. This is why people go to 8.1L buckets, or do away with the stupid EPA-inspired single-ended fuel system altogether.

Drooping fuel pressure under load is the hallmark of a sloppy, amateur setup, and has no business on a F/I car that anyone expects to be taken seriously. Tuning around it requires all kinds of fudging and bandaids that turn a good tune into a minefield. You can only push a VE table so far, before it bites you in the ass. Even with perfectly flat pressure at the rails but no boost referenced regulator, the effect manifold pressure on fuel delivery requires undesired alterations to the VE.

[ericwilloughby]

I know you are a smart guy that has built some fast cars. I don't understand your combativeness and insulting nature here.

No one is talking about a stock pump. Even thought N2O guys run 50-100 shots dry on them.

Increasing the size of the pump does not increase the chance of cavitation. Increase speed could I agree. But it works.

There is no better "oversized feed" than a pump with an open inlet sitting inside a tank full of fuel. I'm sure you'd agree.

For the entire last paragraph, your just a perfectionist, fine for you. There are a lot of guys on here with fast ass cars that don't have a return system or an external regulator that you've called sloppy, amateur, and not to be taken seriously. So, as smart or good as you may be, I'd rather you kiss my *** than hear your mouth run anymore. JMO

[mistermike]

I'm not trying to insult anyone, and the only thing I am combatting is misinformation.

In your classic thread where you insisted that narrowband sensors could be used for tuning, some very smart people tried to lead you to some kind of understanding, even to the point of creating special documents and providing graphs and charts and were quite patient with you. The more information they provided to you, the more you acted like they were pouring battery acid down your throat. They were trying very hard to be nice to you, and your combativeness had them scratching their heads and eventually throwing in the towel. This same argumentativeness and closed mindedness has been repeated countless times across many subjects, to the point where it seems rather futile to tap dance around your insistance on wrong facts.

A pump with too much capacity will drain the stock bucket quickly, once the fuel drops below the top.
A pump overdriven with a booster can cavitate at any fuel level.
I have yet to see a submersible pump outside of a Bosch, with a decent sized inlet, once the sock is attached. Yes, you could run more than one intank pump, but why go to all that work to still have all the crap associated with an intank regulator that is 15 feet too far from the point where you need steady pressure.

I stand by my assertion that a forced induction engine without a boost referenced regulator and return line is sloppy, and not a serious fuel system. Lets assume 10 Lbs of boost combined with a pressure drop of 10 Lbs from the tank to the rails. This is a 20 Lb deficit in fuel delivery that must be tuned out in the VE table. Increasing the VE values to a number high enough to offset that will cause your CYLAIR to max out at which point you lose control of your timing. Only an aftermarket timing box, a custom operating system in the ECM, or a prayer can fix that. Outside of the prayer, those options costs at least as much as a simple return style system (http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162 495), which is still far less expensive than a new motor.

[ericwilloughby]

Guess what. I still tune with narrow bands. It still works. And if I'm at 11.5 AFR rather than 12 the engine wont care. We'll see tommorow, I have a dyno apt. But as I said. It wont matter.

"once the fuel drops below the top". You're more hard headed than me. Don't run it with the fuel below the top. Easy cheap fix.

I'm not arguing that a return system isn't better. I wish I had one. When I feel like doing one I will.

You're just the type to spew a bunch of "CYLAIR" nonsence trying to sound like a bad ass while putting everyone else down for not being as good as you. You're a ****. But you already knew that.

[Perdieu]

Guess what. I still tune with narrow bands. It still works. And if I'm at 11.5 AFR rather than 12 the engine wont care. We'll see tommorow, I have a dyno apt. But as I said. It wont matter.

"once the fuel drops below the top". You're more hard headed than me. Don't run it with the fuel below the top. Easy cheap fix.

I'm not arguing that a return system isn't better. I wish I had one. When I feel like doing one I will.

You're just the type to spew a bunch of "CYLAIR" nonsence trying to sound like a bad ass while putting everyone else down for not being as good as you. You're a ****. But you already knew that.

I have a question.
Didn't you hurt your engine?

BTW whats with all the name calling....

[mygto]

lol! This thread has derailed!

[Doric]

I'm going to let this thread stay open, but if things get much worse, Infractions will get handed out.

Cheers.

[mistermike]

lol! This thread has derailed!

http://frankensteinsninja.files.wordpress.com/2008/ 08/train_wreck2.png

[NicD]

This thread delivers...

[jmd]

this thread should go in the fuel section. oh yea , we do not have one.

[Doric]

this thread should go in the fuel section. oh yea , we do not have one.
...Know what I tell my seven-year-old when he keeps pestering me about petty shit?

I tell him to eff off.

Hint, hint.

[gto_in_nc]

I'm not trying to insult anyone, and the only thing I am combatting is misinformation.

In your classic thread where you insisted that narrowband sensors could be used for tuning, some very smart people tried to lead you to some kind of understanding, even to the point of creating special documents and providing graphs and charts and were quite patient with you. The more information they provided to you, the more you acted like they were pouring battery acid down your throat. They were trying very hard to be nice to you, and your combativeness had them scratching their heads and eventually throwing in the towel. This same argumentativeness and closed mindedness has been repeated countless times across many subjects, to the point where it seems rather futile to tap dance around your insistance on wrong facts.

<snip>


<grumble>
<grumble><grumble>

What the...

Who poked me???

:(



:D Hey! I remember that thread! It's high on my list, actually.

Physics is a bitch, Mike. I'm trying to learn to accept that fact with Zen-like tranquility...

:)

<nods-off>

[blwnls1]

I'm going to let this thread stay open, but if things get much worse, Infractions will get handed out.

Cheers.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa287/tdazmansF D/badass.jpg

[gtore62]

what fuel system does the zr1 have? i read somewhere that, gm pcm controls increase fuel pressure to 89psi at high boost levels and 60 psi for idle and driveability. anyways, it would be nice to be able to monitor fuel flow along with ipw, and psi. fuel flow demands will increase as the afr decreases. if you go lean on a stock bucket, a higher capacity pump may not be the culprit, instead the restriction in the lines and inlet, which if made larger the pump may suffer some . with a bit of math somene here, i'm shure, can figure out how fast the bucket fuel volume will deplete. as far as the o2 sensors, i think you could tune with it but you would have to start real fat and work your way down, and maybe end up somewhere between 11 and 12 afr, coupled with a wideband, you could micromanage the afr to achieve lean best torque. the o2 sensors have a smaller window of accuracy than the wb for sure, but can get you close. try running an efi engine without front o2 sensors, it won't work, so therefore they must be quite important. ahh, who knows , maybe i'm off.

[Perdieu]

try running an efi engine without front o2 sensors, it won't work, so therefore they must be quite important. ahh, who knows , maybe i'm off.

I don't have any 02 sensors.. I get 19 mpg avg with the th400
Could I have tune it with them sure but then I would have left something on the table and ran 11's in a car that runs 10's :D

as for the fuel part I was dropping 20psi add in the 8-9 psi of boost thats a 38-39 swing.... I was lucky I have my meth set up with to big sprayers

[mistermike]

I don't have any 02 sensors.. I get 19 mpg avg with the th400
Could I have tune it with them sure but then I would have left something on the table and ran 11's in a car that runs 10's :D

as for the fuel part I was dropping 20psi add in the 8-9 psi of boost thats a 38-39 swing.... I was lucky I have my meth set up with to big sprayers

Wow. I didn't know you were drooping that much. I guess it stands to reason considering your ET's. Thank God for meth. With that much meth, I'm guessing you learned to think in terms of Lambda, rather than AFR, not to mention having the shiniest piston tops in town. It sounds like it's going to be a fair amount of work to transition to a setup with flat fuel pressure. Can you say Roadrunner?

[mistermike]

what fuel system does the zr1 have? i read somewhere that, gm pcm controls increase fuel pressure to 89psi at high boost levels and 60 psi for idle and driveability. anyways, it would be nice to be able to monitor fuel flow along with ipw, and psi. fuel flow demands will increase as the afr decreases. if you go lean on a stock bucket, a higher capacity pump may not be the culprit, instead the restriction in the lines and inlet, which if made larger the pump may suffer some . with a bit of math somene here, i'm shure, can figure out how fast the bucket fuel volume will deplete. as far as the o2 sensors, i think you could tune with it but you would have to start real fat and work your way down, and maybe end up somewhere between 11 and 12 afr, coupled with a wideband, you could micromanage the afr to achieve lean best torque. the o2 sensors have a smaller window of accuracy than the wb for sure, but can get you close. try running an efi engine without front o2 sensors, it won't work, so therefore they must be quite important. ahh, who knows , maybe i'm off.
The ECM doesn't really consider absolute deviation from 450 mV in its fuel calculations using NB sensors. It just toggles between rich and lean. Time plays a bigger part than voltage in the algorithm used to trim the fuel in closed loop. All O2 sensors are more or less accurate at stoich, because all they really do is indicate whether the cell is accepting or donating oxygen. When it's doing neither, combustion is stoichiometric. Voltage away from stoich is heavily influenced by temperature and to a lesser degree, pressure. WB sensors put cell temperature in a tightly closed loop with the aid of a computer, whereas in an NB sensor this parameter is out of control.

[gtore62]

The ECM doesn't really consider absolute deviation from 450 mV in its fuel calculations using NB sensors. It just toggles between rich and lean. Time plays a bigger part than voltage in the algorithm used to trim the fuel in closed loop. All O2 sensors are more or less accurate at stoich, because all they really do is indicate whether the cell is accepting or donating oxygen. When it's doing neither, combustion is stoichiometric. Voltage away from stoich is heavily influenced by temperature and to a lesser degree, pressure. WB sensors put cell temperature in a tightly closed loop with the aid of a computer, whereas in an NB sensor this parameter is out of control.

i have been logging wot runs at the track, about 300 runs now. maybe 10 or so did not successfully record. but it's been my experience , at least with my own 02 sensors that, they are CONSISTENTLY always around .910 -+ .020mv, but i have always used my trustworthy wb, and i rely on both as a sanity ck.. anyways. many of us in this forum have screwed up to the point that we blow our engines up prematurely. anyways , the op was interested in knowing weather the 60lbs injectors and the 255 are adequate for his set-up. personally i don't think there is an accurate way to assess the capability of that combination, unless there is an accurate fuel flow readings available to us, otherwise you have to rely on idc, ipw, and or the system going lean, via lambda reading as your sole indications.

[gto_in_nc]

What you are saying it that your NBO2 sensors show anywhere between 0.89 & 0.93 volts (a 4.4% uncertainty.) If the difference between a 12.8 & a 13.4 is irrelevant then the narrowbands are OK, I guess...

You are correct, of course, that this has nothing to do with whether the OP's injectors & pump are adequate. :)

[gto_in_nc]

The ECM doesn't really consider absolute deviation from 450 mV in its fuel calculations using NB sensors. It just toggles between rich and lean. Time plays a bigger part than voltage in the algorithm used to trim the fuel in closed loop. All O2 sensors are more or less accurate at stoich, because all they really do is indicate whether the cell is accepting or donating oxygen. When it's doing neither, combustion is stoichiometric. Voltage away from stoich is heavily influenced by temperature and to a lesser degree, pressure. WB sensors put cell temperature in a tightly closed loop with the aid of a computer, whereas in an NB sensor this parameter is out of control.

As an aside, Mike, another factor making the narrowbands problematic when used for other than intended purposes (i.e., in saturation rather than as switching devices) is the tendency to move into full saturation over a period of time. This means that a long pull at constant AFR will result in constantly changing NB readings, so now the voltage on the NB becomes even less useful for determining AFR.

Basically, trying to tune (or even just to monitor) using narrowbands is like brushing your teeth through your anus -- it is awkward & painful, and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth...


That said, however, I think gtore62's point about using it as a sanity check is very valid! The NBO2 sensor is a switching device with a threshold at stoich. This means that it does an outstanding job of indicating "too rich" or "too lean" (it utterly sucks at doing anything else.) If your WB says 11.6 but your NB says "too lean", something is not working properly! That would be a good time to stop & figure out what. :)

[ericwilloughby]

I have a question.
Didn't you hurt your engine?

BTW whats with all the name calling....

Yeah, I spun a bearing. I doubt that was do to the tune :) But having it apart was a good opportunity to check the pistons out.

What's with the name calling? That's what I asked Mike.

[mistermike]

My HHR uses a WB for the primary mixture control and an NB for policing the cat(s). The Dashhawk lets me monitor in real time the WB equivalency ratio, AFR, and heater current, and it's interesting to see how much tighter the amplitude boundaries of the oscillations are compared to NB. Naturally, the oscillations of the NB are a lot less wild as well, but it's even more interesting to see how significantly the NB voltages vary at a relatively constant WB indication.

To put in my $.02 regarding the OP's request for information:
When I was researching my new fuel system based on 60 Lb Mototron injectors. I was utilizing the injector / fueling calculators that are available around the internet. The formulae are pretty well established, so I endeavored to determine what kind of fuel volume and pressure would be required to get a set of 60s to produce 1000 FWHP or aproximately 800 RWHP, using a generous driveline loss. You need to input a limit for duty cycle and a projected BSFC, with suggestions offered as to what BSFC would be appropriate for N/A, supercharged, or turbocharged setups, with turbos being the highest.

The results had me buy a rather hefty Mallory 160 GPH pump operating at its maximum safe continuous pressure, not counting short term boost reference bumps of 10-15 Lb. (Heat produced by the pump tracks fuel pressure closely.)

Later, I had an opportunity to speak with a couple of fellows who do this sort of thing for a living on LS1s and LS2s, and found out in the real world that they were able to get pretty good power out of 60's without going to the extremes I was seeing dictated by the formulas. The only explaination I can offer for the real world results being more optimistic than the calculated ones, is that LSx motors with their modern head, valve, and rotating parts are much more efficient than the ones that the BSFC recommendations were based on, which were probably Gen1 small blocks.

I'm hesitant to say you can make XYZ power with a particular setup because tuning and safety margin preferences can have a significant effect on the projections. I would love to see actual BSFC numbers worked up on these motors using engine dynos and compare that to the conventional wisdom.

[gtore62]

What you are saying it that your NBO2 sensors show anywhere between 0.89 & 0.93 volts (a 4.4% uncertainty.) If the difference between a 12.8 & a 13.4 is irrelevant then the narrowbands are OK, I guess...

You are correct, of course, that this has nothing to do with whether the OP's injectors & pump are adequate. :)

actually i have it norrowed down even closer than that, i can go out on any given day and and run 13.2afr and i know i will see about .880 =-.5mv, 12afr is very close to .940mv, and 11afr is also very close to .960mv, i have also gone very dangerously lean and rich, i'm not proud of either one occurence , but my wideband has given me reason to believe that the nb is a very good friend to have. people seem to always put timing in the background as if it wasn't nearly as important as the fuel mixture. i would again like to know what set-up the zr1 employs and maybe the op might have a better idea wheather his set-up is barely capable.

[gto_in_nc]

There you go throwing around big words like endeavored, formula, BSFC and all...


Not to mention the word "safety" -- I think I heard that this was just a euphemism for "p____". :stickpoke:

:)

[mistermike]

I'm going to go out and get me some safety tonight!

[gto_in_nc]

Schwing!

[Perdieu]

It sounds like it's going to be a fair amount of work to transition to a setup with flat fuel pressure. Can you say Roadrunner?

I will fall in love with the RR for a few days and all should be good to go playing again


Yeah, I spun a bearing. I doubt that was do to the tune :) But having it apart was a good opportunity to check the pistons out.


You might want to rethink that.. you can run to lean and knock the bearings out or you can run to rich and knock them out.. something caused them to spin....and I've see BOTH ways do it..

[ericwilloughby]

actually i have it norrowed down even closer than that, i can go out on any given day and and run 13.2afr and i know i will see about .880 =-.5mv, 12afr is very close to .840mv, and 11afr is also very close to .860mv, i have also gone very dangerously lean and rich, i'm not proud of either one occurence , but my wideband has given me reason to believe that the nb is a very good friend to have. people seem to always put timing in the background as if it wasn't nearly as important as the fuel mixture. i would again like to know what set-up the zr1 employs and maybe the op might have a better idea wheather his set-up is barely capable.

Na na, na na, na :) Can I say, told you so. hahaha

Just playing, I call a truse Mike.

[ericwilloughby]

I will fall in love with the RR for a few days and all should be good to go playing again




You might want to rethink that.. you can run to lean and knock the bearings out or you can run to rich and knock them out.. something caused them to spin....and I've see BOTH ways do it..


It had 3 quarts of oil in it. When I turned up the boost the turbo drank oil and I didn't see it because it was dark outside. I didn't have a restrictor in the oil feed line. Opps, $700 lesson.

[ericwilloughby]

:gr_jest:There you go throwing around big words like endeavored, formula, BSFC and all...


Not to mention the word "safety" -- I think I heard that this was just a euphemism for "p____". :stickpoke:

:)


That's some funny shit. But true:gr_jest:

[rcsfastgto]

I would like to add my 60lbers were at 99% duty cycle at 16psi and 134mph ,i input that in the trap speed car weight and et in for a drag/hp numbers put me over 800hp to the rear wheels.I also have the twin intank Nastys setup.

[mistermike]

I would like to add my 60lbers were at 99% duty cycle at 16psi and 134mph ,i input that in the trap speed car weight and et in for a drag/hp numbers put me over 800hp to the rear wheels.I also have the twin intank Nastys setup.

That sounds about right. You usually have to run a bit richer with turbos because they're load driven rather than RPM driven. I'm assuming no meth?

[ericwilloughby]

i have been logging wot runs at the track, about 300 runs now. maybe 10 or so did not successfully record. but it's been my experience , at least with my own 02 sensors that, they are CONSISTENTLY always around .910 -+ .020mv, but i have always used my trustworthy wb, and i rely on both as a sanity ck..

I have them same experience with NBO2's. They are in fact quite accurate at WOT. But you are the only person other than me on this board and ls1tech that will come out and say it and back it up with data. I don't have a WB so I can't say what v equates to what AFR, until I go to the dyno anyway. You do. Thanks.

Most of the data I've seen against the argument is taken at or near the switching point of the NB. Or at loads other than WOT.

For my ride .87-88 is where I need to be. Next time I'm on the dyno I need to see what AFR that is.

[Perdieu]

For my ride .87-88 is where I need to be. Next time I'm on the dyno I need to see what AFR that is.

How do you know thats where you need to be...

do you have track time's to show what A/F produces what results

[ericwilloughby]

How do you know thats where you need to be...

do you have track time's to show what A/F produces what results

I've learned from experience. i.e.
.85-.86 gives me knock in 3rd gear.
The first time I had it on the dyno I got some figures..I'm looking them up now.
G-tech 1/4 mile times between tunes.
Seat of the pants feel for course adjustments.
G-tech g readings are the simplest and most legal. My favorite is a 2nd gear pull from 30-80 MPH. I used to get .44g on the old Holset 4 psi. I need to check that again when I get more NT-01's this spring. With this turbo it's 3rd gear pulls only. Even then I spin on the bumps.

Oh, here it is. I wrote the nb o2 readings on the top of the sheet. .87 and .88 equal 12.1 afr. It's from my thread OEM vs Predator vs E85 dyno thread. http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4184 875#post4184875

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=83607&d=1210242004

[mistermike]

How do you know thats where you need to be...

do you have track time's to show what A/F produces what results

Don't get sucked in. There's no escape once you've entered the vortex.

[NicD]

I have them same experience with NBO2's. They are in fact quite accurate at WOT. But you are the only person other than me on this board and ls1tech that will come out and say it and back it up with data.

:banghead:

[Perdieu]

Don't get sucked in. There's no escape once you've entered the vortex.

LOL I've been building track cars for 20+ years I understand how to get the most out of a set up....First ruel is to not half ass it

[mistermike]

I have them same experience with NBO2's. They are in fact quite accurate at WOT. But you are the only person other than me on this board and ls1tech that will come out and say it and back it up with data...

What part of the graph below didn't you understand?

http://www.public.asu.edu/~cwessel/AFR%20vs%20O2v. JPG

OK, I guess that would be ALL of it, then.




:facepalm:

[ericwilloughby]

What part of my middle finger do you not understand?

Another chart of the nb02 switching. No shit they v is all over the place.
I mean how the hell do you think guys tuned 5-10 years ago before WB's were available. You're not at bright as you make out to be.

[Hendrix-Engineering]

LOL I've been building track cars for 20+ years I understand how to get the most out of a set up....First ruel is to not half ass it

2nd rule....THERE ARE NO RULES!LOL

[Perdieu]

Another chart of the nb02 switching. No shit they v is all over the place.
I mean how the hell do you think guys tuned 5-10 years ago before WB's were available. You're not at bright as you make out to be.


They tune to what they "thought" was a good tune.. not what "IS" a good tune.. Kind of like what you are doing you tune to what you "think" is good.. which myself and several other disagree with and YOU can't deal with it..

plus W/B have been used for over 15 years that I know of and on top of that several used EGT's to tune..

on a side note....I'm still lost on why the name call and remarks you make toward other members has been allowed to continue.

2nd rule....THERE ARE NO RULES!LOL

I'm poor I have to have rules I can't half ass a set up then keep throwing money at it just to half ass it somemore with a tune and crappy resulting et's

[mistermike]

What part of my middle finger do you not understand?
Brilliant. I guess that settles THAT.

I mean how the hell do you think guys tuned 5-10 years ago before WB's were available...

Well, they certainly didn't wait until their F/I engine went into detonation in third gear to decide that it was too lean.

[GTO Fan]

I'm at the limit with this setup. I'm still using the 255 with 60lb injectors and stock bucket and I'm fine on the dyno, but at the track I'm detonating in 4th gear. I increased boost and added afr heads and decreased my trap speed by 3 mph :bomb:. So now I need to upgrade my fuel system. I'm contemplating switching to E85 at the same time and ditching my meth kit as well.

[ericwilloughby]

If you have access to E85 it is by far the better option. I run 7-9 psi and 22-24 degrees timing with no intercooler and make 550 ft lbs on a Mustang dyno.

[NicD]

What part of my middle finger do you not understand?

Another chart of the nb02 switching. No shit they v is all over the place.
I mean how the hell do you think guys tuned 5-10 years ago before WB's were available. You're not at bright as you make out to be.

:banghead::banghead:

[mistermike]

I'm at the limit with this setup. I'm still using the 255 with 60lb injectors and stock bucket and I'm fine on the dyno, but at the track I'm detonating in 4th gear. I increased boost and added afr heads and decreased my trap speed by 3 mph :bomb:. So now I need to upgrade my fuel system. I'm contemplating switching to E85 at the same time and ditching my meth kit as well.

At the track, the fuel is plastered against the back of the tank, instead of nicely sitting at the bottom. Same for inside the bucket. E85 will up the fuel volume required by 30-40%. You should have ditched the bucket long ago if you're running F/I with heads and cam. Copy Fraser's setup and call it a day. Your engine will thank you, and you opponents will curse you.

[mistermike]

:banghead::banghead:

http://trybecca.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/bayer-aspirin.jpg

[GTO Fan]

At the track, the fuel is plastered against the back of the tank, instead of nicely sitting at the bottom. Same for inside the bucket. E85 will up the fuel volume required by 30-40%. You should have ditched the bucket long ago if you're running F/I with heads and cam. Copy Fraser's setup and call it a day. Your engine will thank you, and you opponents will curse you.

Well the noise I thought was detonation on my last run was actually my new 8 rib belt shredding on one side :bomb:. I will have to get a shorter one next time and recheck my pulley alignment. However, I still think I need to upgrade my fuel system and I understand I will need a larger fuel system for E85 than gasoline. Thanks for the info and I will check out Fraser's setup :).

[JAX04]

ok, i have now read evey line of this thread, line for line, and still didnt understand what type of fuel system i need to go with for around 7 psi of boost. and be safe. ohwell. maybe i missed it.

[Perdieu]

ok, i have now read evey line of this thread, line for line, and still didnt understand what type of fuel system i need to go with for around 7 psi of boost. and be safe. ohwell. maybe i missed it.

gs340 pump, Kenny Bell Boost a Pump, 60lb injectors and you'll be fine

unless you want to spend some money and do a GOOD system

[ericwilloughby]

That's what I have, minus the boost a pump, and I can get an AFR of 10.x with pulse width to spare. And that's on E-85. Which requires 25% more fuel. It's not a "good" fuel system and it's not tuned "good" either per most on this board. But enough is enough.

[jmd]

...Know what I tell my seven-year-old when he keeps pestering me about petty shit?

I tell him to eff off.

Hint, hint.

same to you buddy. just because you are too hard headed to listen to members about an improvement to the forum and the gto community is not my fault. it is yours. i am not the only member of this forum that thinks that way.

[Doric]

same to you buddy. just because you are too hard headed to listen to members about an improvement to the forum and the gto community is not my fault. it is yours. i am not the only member of this forum that thinks that way.
It's not going to happen. I'm sorry. And you can call me hard-headed, but it just is not a necessary change.

Now, you can drop it and actually contribute to the threads that are already here, or you can find another site and another admin to pester.

Cheers.

[JAX04]

gs340 pump, Kenny Bell Boost a Pump, 60lb injectors and you'll be fine

unless you want to spend some money and do a GOOD system

Please, enlighten me on what a good fuel system would be. Thank you

[Doric]

Please, enlighten me on what a good fuel system would be. Thank you
He posted a thread just the other day. I'm certain that it's even still on the first page of this section.

Please use the Search function. It works wonders.

[JAX04]

sorry op, wasnt tryin to hijack the thread. My bad doric

[cquist]

90% of the time the search function dont work for me anymore.He posted a thread just the other day. I'm certain that it's even still on the first page of this section.

Please use the Search function. It works wonders.