Heel-toe downshifting in the GTO

[RA7 GTO]

Anybody else disappointed with pedal position in this car? This is definitely my ONLY significant beef with this awesome car. The pedals are too far apart and a little too offset. I have to twist my foot clockwise to span the pedals, and even then its difficult to get a decent blip. On my Z06 and even my 328is, the heel-toe goes like buttah, but on the GTO I have to be a contortionist. Is it just me?

[sxty8goats]

Yep, I'm with you on that one. I had a similar thread "peddle spacing" about a month or so back. Damn thing almost killed me when my foot slipped off of the break peddle.

[2004Goat]

Anybody else disappointed with pedal position in this car? This is definitely my ONLY significant beef with this awesome car. The pedals are too far apart and a little too offset. I have to twist my foot clockwise to span the pedals, and even then its difficult to get a decent blip. On my Z06 and even my 328is, the heel-toe goes like buttah, but on the GTO I have to be a contortionist. Is it just me?

I couldn't agree with you more. I have the same problem with heel and toe. And I wear a size 13. I would like to see some aftermarket pedals that would bring the gas and brake closer together. That would give me a little more confidence when trail braking.

Brakes could also use a little touch up since they faid after some hard stopping.

[High Octane]

Not only are the pedals to far apart but the gas is closer to the floor than the clutch also gives me grief.

[FLORIT]

What is "heel/toe shifting"?

[sxty8goats]

What is "heel/toe shifting"?

When entering a corner at speed and down shifting and breaking at the same time to more rapidly slow down and stay in power band.... pressing the break with the heal of your right foot and bliping the throtle (sp, gas, sorry) with your toe as you down shift. The idea is to raise the RPM to the higher rate the lower gear will demand. In this car, with the high torque of the motor, if you do not heel/toe and you down shift hard the rear end will break loose because the tires will not spinn as fast as they need to. Kind of like hitting the breaks... Bad in a hard corner.

Too many "and"s in the first sentence, not time to be gramaticly correct.

[mistermike]

I wonder what they did to the pedals on Stu Hayner's car, if anything. Don't recall seeing any pix of them.

[Doc GTO]

In the article they said they installed a heel/toe kit on Stu's GTO. Some of the parts for the his GT car came from down under, like his brakes. I wouldn't be suprised if the heel/toe kit came from HSV or one of the Aussie companies.

[Warren]

I have wondered about this "Heel/Toe" thing. I was trying to figure out how to do a smoky burnout, but with my limited experience with a manual transmission I was trying to figure out how I would brake and clutch at the same time. At least I assume this is how you do a smoky burnout. I have not tried it yet. Advice is appreciated.... :D

[sxty8goats]

Smoky burn out.

install a line lock on the front breaks. turn it on. pump the break pedal to build preasure. spin the tires. when you feel you have done enough damage to your tires, push the release button and roll it out.

[mlc]

I saw a vid (and have no idea where it is now) of several different cars in japan racing on a road course. I know one was a s2000 and another a g35. Anyway, they had camera's in the cars and one guy was doing a toe-heel (he had his toe on the break and the heel on the gas). It was really wild to watch.

[sxty8goats]

Huh, it was always explained to me to heal the break and toe the gas. I could easily be wrong, I learned as a teenager from a teenager.

[Warren]

Smoky burn out.

install a line lock on the front breaks. turn it on. pump the break pedal to build preasure. spin the tires. when you feel you have done enough damage to your tires, push the release button and roll it out.
This sounds great, but where do you get one? Thanks again.

[Tigger]

Huh, it was always explained to me to heal the break and toe the gas. I could easily be wrong, I learned as a teenager from a teenager.If the pedals are close enough, you press the brake with the inside edge of your foot and you blip the throttle with the outside edge of your foot, like this picture:

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds .com/media/ownership/howto/heel_toe/position4.350. jpg

If the spacing (or your shoe width) does not allow that, you're supposed to press the brake with the ball of your foot and rotate your heel counter clockwise to get the accelerator with your heel. Here's a diagram that I found:
http://www.teammiata.com/images/heelandtoe.JPG

I've tried a couple times and can reach the throttle with the outside edge, but only if I put my foot very close to the edge of the brake pedal. It doesn't feel very secure, and the little rubber knobbies don't help much either. I haven't found a comfortable way to do the true heel-toe like the second diagram. Do a Google search on heel toe and you'll find several articles right away.

I need to find a nice empty place where I can practice this for a while. I keep having this vision of coasting into the car in front of me because either my foot slips off the brake, or just not braking enough while I'm concentrating on trying to blip the throttle and downshift.

[Huntress]

Would the answer to this be aftermarket pedals (ie, bigger, wider clutch pedal)

[Tigger]

Maybe a wider brake pedal. The clutch pedal isn't the problem. The other alternative would be if the brake pedal could some how be adjusted even just a half inch closer to the accelerator.

[Tails]

So I assume Bozo the clown wouldn't have a problem.....
:drink: :drink:

[sxty8goats]

I actualy bought a new pair of Vans because they had a wider, flatter toe area..

[mlc]

If the pedals are close enough, you press the brake with the inside edge of your foot and you blip the throttle with the outside edge of your foot, like this picture:

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds .com/media/ownership/howto/heel_toe/position4.350. jpg

If the spacing (or your shoe width) does not allow that, you're supposed to press the brake with the ball of your foot and rotate your heel counter clockwise to get the accelerator with your heel. Here's a diagram that I found:
http://www.teammiata.com/images/heelandtoe.JPG

I've tried a couple times and can reach the throttle with the outside edge, but only if I put my foot very close to the edge of the brake pedal. It doesn't feel very secure, and the little rubber knobbies don't help much either. I haven't found a comfortable way to do the true heel-toe like the second diagram. Do a Google search on heel toe and you'll find several articles right away.

I need to find a nice empty place where I can practice this for a while. I keep having this vision of coasting into the car in front of me because either my foot slips off the brake, or just not braking enough while I'm concentrating on trying to blip the throttle and downshift.

This would be good practice for auto-xing.

I thought raising the gas pedal (or lowering the break) is whats needed.

[sxty8goats]

This would be good practice for auto-xing.

I thought raising the gas pedal (or lowering the break) is whats needed.

Na, you need the break a little higher that the gas. That way when you are in the break it is almost level with the gas and you use the bread pedal as a fulcrum.

[kevm14]

Even before we start educating people on the benefits of heel-toe downshifting, I think we should start by explaining why the rev-matched downshift is beneficial. I have a feeling many people are in the dark about this, and still insist on that irritating, slow, 3 second clutch slip to bring the tach up as they come to a stop. It irritates me. And it's not ok!!!

[Tigger]

Are you asking for an explanation? If so, do the Google search and read the articles which explain things far better than I can. In a nutshell, the point of doing a rev-matched downshift is not to slow the car down -- that's what the brakes are for. Rev-matched downshifting is done in cornering maneuvers so that the car will be in the proper gear to get maximum acceleration out of the corner.

If you downshift without rev-matching, various things can happen depending on how fast you are going and what gear you try to downshift into. At best, you'll get a little jerkiness as you let out the clutch and the engine comes up to speed. If you're going too fast, you can lock up your wheels and lose control. At worst, if you downshift into too low a gear while you are still going too fast, you can over-rev your engine and break things. Rev-matching won't help this last case, but if you understand rev-matching, you'll know which gears you can and cannot downshift into at various speeds.

[sxty8goats]

It irritates me. And it's not ok!!!

Then Freaking Ejudi-Cate us. I understand the reasons and I do heal/toe. What Irritates me is people who make accusatory or inflammatory statements without making an argument to support it. If you think someone should do something your way or belive something you do, you have to make a convincing argument.

Example

Country Musik on the radio today sucks! Don't listen to it!

This is a statement and a command. If I said that to you, and you and happen to like Country musik, you would have nothing to say to me and would keep on listening to CM.

Now if I said:

Country music irritates me with its repetitive 4/4 rhythm and predictable chord progression. It also offends me with the predictable lyrics and whiny vocals. The "poor pitiful me" attitude of 88% of the songs I hear on country radio fills me with disgust.

I have made an argument and given a reason that I do not like whinie a$$ singers and Guitars that manage to whine as well. I leave it up to you to decide if my arguments are valid and to make your own choices there.

[kevm14]

Are you asking for an explanation?

No I was not. I just didn't want to launch into an explanation until someone asked. I am on my way out the door and will respond to the rest of your post, and the following one, when I get back.

[FLORIT]

The owner's manual says to use downshifting to help slow the car down and save wear on the brakes. That, of course, is for normal street driving. Downshift when you approach a stop light, and you can watch and listen as RPM's go up and the drive train "brakes" the car.

Rev-matching, on the other hand, negates the braking effect of down shifting. But it is not nearly as easy as it sounds. There is a very thin line between under revving (drive train braking) and over revving (wheel spin and possible engine damage.) This heel-toe rev-matching road racing stuff takes a LOT of practice. DON'T DO IT IN TRAFFIC.

Hey, I'm no expert. I understand the concept, but wouldn't dare stake my life on trying to pull it off. Then again, that SCCA Solo2 stuff looks like a LOT OF FUN.

[Huntress]

Maybe a wider brake pedal. The clutch pedal isn't the problem. The other alternative would be if the brake pedal could some how be adjusted even just a half inch closer to the accelerator.
You know honestly I meant brake, it was early... I am thinking the pedal from the A4's might work for you guys.

[DANSLS1]

You know - I was actually thinking about this thread when I was out driving last night, and I am pretty sure that I can use my size 6 1/2 shoes and spread the gas and brake as demonstrated in the picture above. It's maybe not the most comfortable - but I think I could do it.
Dan

[sxty8goats]

The owner's manual says to use downshifting to help slow the car down and save wear on the brakes. That, of course, is for normal street driving. Downshift when you approach a stop light, and you can watch and listen as RPM's go up and the drive train "brakes" the car.

Rev-matching, on the other hand, negates the braking effect of down shifting. But it is not nearly as easy as it sounds. There is a very thin line between under revving (drive train braking) and over revving (wheel spin and possible engine damage.) This heel-toe rev-matching road racing stuff takes a LOT of practice. DON'T DO IT IN TRAFFIC.

Hey, I'm no expert. I understand the concept, but wouldn't dare stake my life on trying to pull it off. Then again, that SCCA Solo2 stuff looks like a LOT OF FUN.

It is a little easier than you think. It does take a bit of finess but I have never over rev'd and caused the wheels to break loose. I have under-rev'd and caused them to slide/drag but this was downshifting and missing the gas because of pedal spacing. When down shifting and breaking, Blip the gas to bring the rpm up to the aproxamate area they will be in when the clutch is released and release the clutch, being off 100 rpm +/- will not do any harm and will help entend the life of your clutch as there is much less slipping while the clutch closes/ engages. If you are cornering stay in the gas to maintain the cornering speed. If you are breaking, lay off the gas to let the drive train assist. Pratice in straight line break situations to get the feel for it.

I'm getting used to hte spacing but I may still do something about it.

[desertgoat]

I have size 11 shoes and I also have problems with heel/toe downshifting due to the position of the gas pedal in relation to the brake. The gas sits about 1.5 inches lower than the plane of the brake.....
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=1610&stc=1


Everytime I try to blip the gas, I end up either having to contort my foot in such an awkward position that it borders on being unsafe, or I end up leaving the brake pedal altogether.
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=1611&stc=1

I have pretty much given up on heel/toe downshifting the GTo and just decided to practice more efficient coming out of the apex turns with the downshift to get up to speed quickly.

[mistermike]

How about a moon gas pedal? I know I'm not the oldest guy here.

[gto_in_nc]

You know honestly I meant brake, it was early... I am thinking the pedal from the A4's might work for you guys.

I knew you meant brake, Huntress...

[Huntress]

I knew you meant brake, Huntress...
The next time we get these Chi-town goats together I want to compare the A4 brake pedal to the M6 pedal... I think the A4 pedal is wider, but I could be wrong... but if it is, it might be a solution to this problem.

Of course it could introduce new problems...

[gto_in_nc]

Like the M6 trying to shift itself, maybe???

[Huntress]

Like the M6 trying to shift itself, maybe???
LOL no I was thinking of maybe the pedals being too close together.... :slap:

Silly boy! :p

[2004Goat]

Huh, it was always explained to me to heal the break and toe the gas. I could easily be wrong, I learned as a teenager from a teenager.

Sorry to say but heal and toe is toe on the brake and heal on the gas. I used to think it was the other way until they taught me the right way at the Bob Bondurant school.

[sxty8goats]

y b Sorry? I addmitted that I could be wrong..

[kevm14]

In a nutshell, the point of doing a rev-matched downshift is not to slow the car down -- that's what the brakes are for. Rev-matched downshifting is done in cornering maneuvers so that the car will be in the proper gear to get maximum acceleration out of the corner.

If you downshift without rev-matching, various things can happen depending on how fast you are going and what gear you try to downshift into. At best, you'll get a little jerkiness as you let out the clutch and the engine comes up to speed.

Rev-matching is not only so that the car will be in the proper gear, but during a 9/10ths or 10/10ths corner, there is NO room for jerkiness. In a fairly neutrally balanced car, a sloppy downshift will almost always result in a spin, or at least unintended sideways action. A proper rev-matched downshift eliminates that jerk from the engine being pulled up to speed. And I disagree that rev-matching downshifts won't slow the car down. Engine braking is still a major player. IMO, there is no reason to use the engine's momentum to slow the car down, because it's hard on the clutch lining. Brakes are approximately 600x easier to replace. I will never, ever understand why someone would choose to slip the clutch into a lower gear to "save the brakes."

My only car is an automatic, but every single time I drive a manual car, I rev-match all over the place. Like when coming to a stop, I'll rev-match down through the gears, just because I find it so satisfying. Even the 2-1. And if you GTO guys want to try something fun, try this: go about 20-25mph in 2nd gear and quickly floor the gas, push in the clutch, shove the shifter into 1st and let off the clutch again. You should be able to clutch and shift fast enough to hold your foot on the gas the entire time (i.e. the engine won't have time to spin up much, except about the amount it would need to rev-match the 2-1, perfect). The resulting grin on your face should be hard enough to last the rest of the day. I do this in my cousin's Z06 whenever I get the chance and it's highly addicting.

[2004Goat]

What is "heel/toe shifting"?

For a somewhat detailed explenation click here.
http://ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?p=55004