HSV Monaros are Still Rolling

[bonequark]

Interesting article and check out the 19" wheels and paint scheme of HSV's GTO:

http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,826 9,16969154%255E21822,00.html

22626

[rlsedition]

Have you ever seen the prices for the HSV cars? They don't exactly give them away. The 19" wheels they can get away with on the smoother Aussie road system, but not here in "pothole" USA.

[mrgto]

Have you ever seen the prices for the HSV cars? They don't exactly give them away. The 19" wheels they can get away with on the smoother Aussie road system, but not here in "pothole" USA.



That why Corvette's come with 19's ?

[rlsedition]

Corvette C6s come with 19" wheels/tires on the rear only (18" fronts). They were designed from day one to drive in the US, whereas the GTO was designed for Aussie roads which are much smoother in most cases.

[rlsedition]

OBTW, GTOs weigh about 500# more than a Vette and have smaller tires also, making the problems worse on bad roads.

[mrgto]

Corvette C6s come with 19" wheels/tires on the rear only (18" fronts). They were designed from day one to drive in the US, whereas the GTO was designed for Aussie roads which are much smoother in most cases.



Much smoother? Funny, I was reading an Australian magazine about the development of the Monaro and they said they designed the suspension to tolerate the dirt roads that occupy much of Australia.

[Mean Goat]

Corvette C6s come with 19" wheels/tires on the rear only (18" fronts). They were designed from day one to drive in the US, whereas the GTO was designed for Aussie roads which are much smoother in most cases.
I thought the skid plate was installed because of crappy roads in Australia.

[Flashpoint]

I thought the skid plate was installed because of crappy roads in Australia.


More becuase the pan, which is aluminum is backwards on this car, with the steering behind it. and the filter all hangs down in front.

Aluminum if it is hit with something significant will crack and not dent like steel.

[Mean Goat]

More becuase the pan, which is aluminum is backwards on this car, with the steering behind it. and the filter all hangs down in front.

Aluminum if it is hit with something significant will crack and not dent like steel.
Ok....Makes sense.

[zog]

Damn I love those wheels!

[cali_broker]

Shame GM won't bring HSV over to show the Pontiac boys how they really do things!

[nomostang]

Is it me or is that bumper a hybrid GTO/Monaro bumper!!! If so i want that shit!

Also i think you got the harsh road thing backwards, Aussie roads suck and US roads are much better!

[rlsedition]

Holden designed the suspension to handle all their models, not just the Monaro/GTO coupes. That would include the 4x4 wagon and half car/half truck versions, which could see some off-road usage.

Aussie roads worse than US? And you live in Chicago? Oh, come on.

I like the HSV stuff, too, but the model prices are a bit much for what changes they make, at least compared to what you get in the US for your performance car dollar.

[nomostang]

Holden designed the suspension to handle all their models, not just the Monaro/GTO coupes. That would include the 4x4 wagon and half car/half truck versions, which could see some off-road usage.

Aussie roads worse than US? And you live in Chicago? Oh, come on.

I like the HSV stuff, too, but the model prices are a bit much for what changes they make, at least compared to what you get in the US for your performance car dollar.

nope i live in the suburbs of chicago. Roads are great man, besides one road (palatine road east of rt 53 which is now being torn apart and redone) all the streets i know of are pretty damn smooth.

[rlsedition]

Well, Michigan roads are not smooth and I think its that way in most parts of the US right now.

[nomostang]

Well, Michigan roads are not smooth and I think its that way in most parts of the US right now.]

actually i didn't mean roads in particular i meant because lots of roads outside of cities are dirt roads etc. in Aus. I'm sure their "paved" roads are even better since they don't expand and contract due similar temperatures all year around.

[isszy]

It is true our main highways are excellent - the main highway 1 around Australia is 4 lane ashpalt for much of the way around. Our city area roads are usually pretty good, but our secondary roads can be quite narrow and poorly maintained - thats what happens when you have many millions of miles of roads to maintain with a population of only 20 million.

Most cars in Australia rarely leave metropolitan areas, so 19inch wheels tend to be an acceptible fashion statement.

[isszy]

We also have the longest straight section of road in the world in Western Australia - 148km (91 miles), plus virtually an entire state (Northern Territory) with no speed limits !!

[isszy]

Have you ever seen the prices for the HSV cars? They don't exactly give them away. The 19" wheels they can get away with on the smoother Aussie road system, but not here in "pothole" USA.

Car prices in general are higher in Australia. There are a number of reasons for this - the exchange rate, the distance from anywhere, and compliance issues (RHD etc) plus a very small market (< 1 million new cars each year).

For example, Nissan 350Z in the US ranges between $27K and $36K. In Australia, the price range is between $60K and $69K (AUD). Even after currency conversion, that is still $45K to $52K.

As a consequence, Australias car fleet tends to be older than other countries - the average age of Australias cars is 10.3 years, the US is less than 8 years.

Lucky GM and Ford build such good cars here that they are worth keeping for a while...

[rlsedition]

izzy,

I was fortunate enough to have visited your country on several occasions the last few years. working with Holden on the GTO, current and future. Of course most of my travels were around Melbourne, a city I came to really enjoy. I drove company car Holdens in the city and on coastal roads and found the RHD experience not to be a problem, except, perhaps, on the "rotaries".

[nomostang]

ummm dude, it only cost me $800 to ship a car from Los Angeles, CA to Hawaii. So i would imagine it wouldn't cost more than $1500 to ship a car from LA to Austrailia. Took my car about 3 weeks to get there, so say 1 month for you guys. Why don't you guys fly to the US, buy a car, and then ship it yourself to Austrailia, maybe there will be some fees or something but it surely cannot add up to $15-$20K!!!!! You would be saving TONS of money that is just ridiculous!

[Flashpoint]

ummm dude, it only cost me $800 to ship a car from Los Angeles, CA to Hawaii. So i would imagine it wouldn't cost more than $1500 to ship a car from LA to Austrailia. Took my car about 3 weeks to get there, so say 1 month for you guys. Why don't you guys fly to the US, buy a car, and then ship it yourself to Austrailia, maybe there will be some fees or something but it surely cannot add up to $15-$20K!!!!! You would be saving TONS of money that is just ridiculous!


if you are saying to import the US versions of these car to AUS, one problem with that, they would NEED to convert it to RHD as thier laws require them to have RHD.

As well as add extra lighting on the front.

[yellow04]

We also have the longest straight section of road in the world in Western Australia - 148km (91 miles), plus virtually an entire state (Northern Territory) with no speed limits !!


what do i have to do to move to australia???? :) :driving:

[Flashpoint]

what do i have to do to move to australia???? :) :driving:

why move there, visit for vacation and rent a car that has GPS nav. :driving:

[cali_broker]

Holden/HSV need to relocate here to the USA!

[rlsedition]

As much as I was impressed by my Holden visits and the one trip to HSV, aren't you selling the GM Performance crew over here a little short? Have you driven the CTS-V? Talk about an impressive sedan!

Yeah, I know we still need more affordable RWD performance cars from GM, but its not like we have nothing to choose in the US lineup.

[cali_broker]

Affordable? Sure; why not. I think people here in this particular forum and the US market is looking for a more diverse lineup for the "GTO." Everyone wants that elusive affordable vehicle but reality is many here will easily spend just as much to "replace" what was left out vs their home market version (Bluetooth, DVD Navi, etc). Although the CTS-V is part of the GM lineup and shares some commonality with the Holdens it's not a GTO in these members eyes albeit 4DR's and all. Different price point and market. People balk at how much Chrysler products are going for with the additional upgraded hardware..and they sell like hotcakes. So who's to say a stock upgraded GTO won't sell? Plan it right with the proper marketing campaign and GM's got a winner as well. Once you have a HSV type or performance subdivision for the GTO then everybody will whine a bit less! Face it; nothing but a Aussie tease.

[rlsedition]

As has been said now many times in this forum, the next-gen (Zeta) GTO was going to address pretty much all the issues I have seen on this site, but it was cancelled by GM brass. With their current sales troubles, the low-volume GTO niche will be the least of their worries.

Yes, I know GM needs affordable RWD performance cars, but if you ran the company, would that be your first priority? I thought not.

[nomostang]

I think GM needs to fire all of their guys in the cosmetic styling department, thats a hell of a start. Look how UGLY all of their cars are, how do they expect to compete with cars that look 10 times better, and have more options and more up to date technology for the same price? It costs no more money to make an exterior of a car look good than it does to make a boring looking one. Hell you could make a $15,000 econo car look EXACTLY like a ferrari Enzo if you wanted too, so why not do it? (well not to that extreme but you get the point) I mean plastic is plastic and metal is metal, just a different shape thats all. Wheels can look like $5000 aftermarket wheels and be cheap cheap cheap knock offs and look a hell of alot better, but they decide to just use the most plain looking wheels possible. The interior plastics always look crappy, the layout looks plain, and the leather is always sub par on most cars. Again it costs no more to make a quality looking piece of plastic than the boring nasty shiny cheap looking plastic, and designing a pretty layout like say the Acura TL would have looked so much better than what you see in the Grand Prix, no extra cost.

I mean look at the Grand Prix? Jesus did they mess the looks of that car up, everyone will agree the last generation, and the generation before looked great, they sure messed up this on ethough.

THe G6? how the hell is that going to compete, that thing is ugly as hell. The Vibe......well they took a good looking car called a Matrix and managed to even make it look bad..... The new SUV's look like ass, except for a small handful like the Equinox (spelling?) looks "okay" and the Blazer SS looks cool.

Saturns whole line of cars look ugly and always have, they always look like they are a goofy and have no nice lines or anything.

Caddys look good IMO, not as good as they could though. When competing with sexy BMW's, Acura TL's, and new Lexus like IS350 the look is not going to sell at the same price.

GTO they throw nasty wheels on it, and change just about everything that makes the Monaro look good, take away all the features like optional moonroof, the digital climate controls. And put a mushy suspension on it that every review has dissed really bad.

i'm leaving out 90% of whats wrong in my eyes but i'd be typing 100 pages
of stuff

[rlsedition]

nomostang,

I take it you don't work for a car company? Your assumptions are way off and you'd know that if you were on "the inside". Designers tend to want to please their bosses bosses, who usually run the company, so if you see "ugly" cars, management probably wanted them that way. Many times GM would spend the time/money to do market research with consumers, then ignore the findings entirely (example: Aztec, 2004 Grand Prix).

The plastics, interior trim, wheels and so on really do cost more to make better looking. Not all parts/processes cost the same, as you suggest. I wouldn't argue that spending money in the product is better than on rebates, but the "good stuff" does cost more. Example: the "blue" gauge lighting on the Acura TL we liked and wanted that technology on a new Pontiac model. Engineering quoted plus $100-130 to get that look in the cluster. It does cost more.

It also costs more to do "swoopy" exteriors versus simple, plain ones. It does cost more do do an Enzo than a Kia. Plenty more.

Your opinions on the various Pontiacs are yours, but I don't agree on the Matrix (yucchh!) or the G6 (it looks pretty good to me and many others I know). The GTO contenting was done as a performance coupe, rather than a luxury car, but we were going to address those issues with the Zeta replacement, until it was canceled, that is.

[wa6usa]

what do i have to do to move to australia???? :) :driving:
Doesn't Wyoming, or Montana have no speed limit on their highways during daylight hours?
Help me out on this one.
Also in good old CA I know of a road that I drove to work everyday with no speed limit and 35 miles of straight well maintained pavement, only catch is it was a Gov't road and no public access. Was a blast at 100++++ everyday on my BMW R80

[nomostang]

rlsedition no i have nothing to do with the car industry. But obviously i'm not the only one that thinks this way about these cars.

[rlsedition]

nomostang,

You are entitled to your opinions about cars, whether I agree with them or not, but please don't suggest that all designs and materials cost the same. They don't.

[nomostang]

nomostang,

You are entitled to your opinions about cars, whether I agree with them or not, but please don't suggest that all designs and materials cost the same. They don't.

Sorry i didn't mean that part i meant the way they look. I just think they need to spend a little more, lose a little more $$$ per car, but sell MANY MANY more by making them look better. GM cars just look plain and outdated compared to the new stuff out there. As i said there are some exceptions but i'd say the boss's boss needs fired if its him thats causing this. And if GM doesn't care about what consumers want then tell them to quit whining and expect to be bankrupt sooner than later.

[Flashpoint]

nomostang,

I take it you don't work for a car company? Your assumptions are way off and you'd know that if you were on "the inside". Designers tend to want to please their bosses bosses, who usually run the company, so if you see "ugly" cars, management probably wanted them that way. Many times GM would spend the time/money to do market research with consumers, then ignore the findings entirely (example: Aztec, 2004 Grand Prix).
.


This is exactly what is wrong, Why please 1 persons opinions over the people that would actually buy the product??? That makes absolutely no sence at all.

I would bet those bosses that are making the decisions wouldn't even drive thier own products if they didn't get free company cars.

Hell I'd bet those bosses and bean counters that make the choices arn't even "car people" and have less knowedge on the design of vehicles then the engineers and designers do.


While this type of stuff goes on in the industry I am in also, Where bosses ask our opinions (the people actually using the products) and then ignore us If they don't like what they hear....then bitch at us when they buy a POS system that doesn't work right, when we told them it won't work before they even bought it.

[rlsedition]

If you think about it, there probably needs to be a good balance among the designer's opinion, market research results and what the head honchos think looks good. The problem with vehicle appearance is that it is so subjective. What you think is great I don't like at all, and so on.

The thing I fault with management is when they ignore market research results entirely because the results happen to disagree with their personal opinions on a design. I've never seen a situation within GM where the customers told us the design wouldn't work that it did work in the marketplace. Customers may not be able to tell you exactly why something doesn't look good to them, but you'd better believe them when they tell you "your baby is ugly".

[nomostang]

If you think about it, there probably needs to be a good balance among the designer's opinion, market research results and what the head honchos think looks good. The problem with vehicle appearance is that it is so subjective. What you think is great I don't like at all, and so on.

The thing I fault with management is when they ignore market research results entirely because the results happen to disagree with their personal opinions on a design. I've never seen a situation within GM where the customers told us the design wouldn't work that it did work in the marketplace. Customers may not be able to tell you exactly why something doesn't look good to them, but you'd better believe them when they tell you "your baby is ugly".

hehe well hmmm i wonder why GM is doing so aweful, yet all the car companies i think look good are doing great? One thing i do know is that my tastes seem very similar to majority of people.

All i know is every magazine says the same thing, everyone i talk about cars with says the same thing (mechanics, friends, co-workers, family, customers of mine, etc.), that GM cars are behind in looks and technology and cost the same.

Ford is the same way. Chrysler is the only company that seems to slowly be
headed in the right direction. I'd say the only major company that makes a crappier looking product is the Mitsubishi (they may be owned by Chrysler i don't remember?).

The new Civic JUST came out, and i see them like every 2 minutes on the road now, i hardly EVER see G6 and they've been out for a while now. I see Acura TL's EVERYWHERE, i hardly ever see the new Grand Prix (especially higher models). I see TC Scions EVERYWHERE, yet i never hardly see Vibes which have been out for a long while now too, i see newer BMW's only every street corner, yet i see like 1/10 the amout of new Caddys. Why? Because at their price points they kill GM cars in just about every way.

And this is in the Midwest where GM cars are 1000 times more popular than the rest of the country.......imagine what its like in the west coast!

[Flashpoint]

If you think about it, there probably needs to be a good balance among the designer's opinion, market research results and what the head honchos think looks good. The problem with vehicle appearance is that it is so subjective. What you think is great I don't like at all, and so on.

The thing I fault with management is when they ignore market research results entirely because the results happen to disagree with their personal opinions on a design. I've never seen a situation within GM where the customers told us the design wouldn't work that it did work in the marketplace. Customers may not be able to tell you exactly why something doesn't look good to them, but you'd better believe them when they tell you "your baby is ugly".


Absolutely