Supercharged vs Turbo for your GTO

[TprGTO-[Robo Fuzz]]

Which do you install on your GTO? I was talking with my friend last night and he said S/C all the way. What is your opinion on this matter?

[GTOdriver7]

i have not seen ANY turbo setups for the GTO. thus i could not really give a fair comparison :(
if you can show me some, then maybe i will vote

[desertgoat]

When my warranty runs out, I am driving my goat straight to Howie at Arrowhead and would tell him to install the best supercharger money can buy. Now all I need to do is to get to 72 mos/ 50 K miles as fast as could and I will have a goat that has 450+hp in it...

[Shocker]

I would say sc turbos I hear are harder to maintain.

[goatwrx]

turbos are a bit harder to maintain, and after spirited driving it is essential for most turbo equipped cars to cool down before they are shut off to stop the oil from baking, see turbo timer. Plus lag will be an issue with a turbo, all though with the V8 grunt of the 350 there won't be notical lag. But I still say supercharge it.

[Holeshot]

Man If I had the extra cash right now I would do the magnacharger and not think twice about it!! :burnout: :burnout: :burnout:

[Dbluegoat]

I am getting the magnacharger before xmas....turbos cost more too

[whipplegto]

In Australia we have LS1s fitted with
- PD blowers
- centrifigal blowers
- single turbo
- twin turbo

The thing I like about the twin turbo applications I have seen is that you cannot see the turbos, and most cannot pick any change in the engine bay. Lift the hood on a blown motor and you can see it straight away.

[TprGTO-[Robo Fuzz]]

In Australia we have LS1s fitted with
- PD blowers
- centrifigal blowers
- single turbo
- twin turbo

The thing I like about the twin turbo applications I have seen is that you cannot see the turbos, and most cannot pick any change in the engine bay. Lift the hood on a blown motor and you can see it straight away.
Can you post any pictures of these setups?

[Dark]

In Australia we have LS1s fitted with
- PD blowers
- centrifigal blowers
- single turbo
- twin turbo

The thing I like about the twin turbo applications I have seen is that you cannot see the turbos, and most cannot pick any change in the engine bay. Lift the hood on a blown motor and you can see it straight away.
are you talking about this one? http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=2590&stc=1

[TprGTO-[Robo Fuzz]]

Thanks, any other pictures?

[Walker]

Twin Turbos. :secret:

[flyinlow]

V type engines are alot easier to put superchargers on than turbos. You almost have to do a twin turbo on a V engine, and now you're talking big bucks. The advantage is you can do alot of playing around with them.

[Aspect]

V type engines are alot easier to put superchargers on than turbos. You almost have to do a twin turbo on a V engine, and now you're talking big bucks. The advantage is you can do alot of playing around with them.


That is not the reason to do twin turbos. Look at the Grand National, single turbo V6 engine. Reason to do twin turbos is to either stager them in a sequential order, one small to come in quicker (thus reducing the so called Turbo Lag) and a larger one that spools up later to produce more power. The other reason is to help modulate the power by runing two smaller turbos to spool up quicker rather than one larger turbo to make better midrange hp.

Look at all the HIGH horsepower street machines. Supras, Skylines, etc... The Higher Horsepowered machines are using a single HUGE Turbo to make power. Sure the PEAK numbers look great on the dyno, but have you seen the curves? YUCK.... peddle to the floor....nothing.....nothing.....nothing...HOLYSni keys !!! Where as a dual turbo will give better midrange.

Its all about your end goal. Ease of maintainence and installation with decent gains - SC. Better gains with a little more installation pain SC with an intercooler. BEST gains will always be a turbo. Its more efficent in its flow giving better results. Look at the majority of setups between a turbo and a SC. The same PSI will not give you the same power from each. A turbo will usually have higher torque level and a flater torque curve then that of a SC.

BTW - The myth of turbo lag is virtually non existant today. Better turbine design and ball bearings have virtually eliminated this previously plaguing problems.

[GTOdriver7]

Look at all the HIGH horsepower street machines. Supras, Skylines, etc... The Higher Horsepowered machines are using a single HUGE Turbo to make power. Sure the PEAK numbers look great on the dyno, but have you seen the curves? YUCK.... peddle to the floor....nothing.....nothing.....nothing...HOLYSni keys !!! Where as a dual turbo will give better midrange.


haha, yes we have all seen STi dyno curve.

BTW - The myth of turbo lag is virtually non existant today. Better turbine design and ball bearings have virtually eliminated this previously plaguing problems

very true.

[LPEGoat]

You know where my vote went...seven days till I pick it up!!!
Magna charger intercooled supercharger kit - silver powder coat finish
Properly sized fuel injectors
Fuel system upgrades
Port & polished throttle body
Professional installation, testing and PCM tuning
LPE Hand held PCM programmer
Lingenfelter supercharged emblems
Chassis dyno test before and after installation
160 Degree thermostat
LPE cold air induction system
Corsa Pro series touring system
LPE coil covers - Red
Lloyds custom floor mats with LPE logo
2,800 stall torque converter

[Dbluegoat]

You know where my vote went...seven days till I pick it up!!!
Magna charger intercooled supercharger kit - silver powder coat finish
Properly sized fuel injectors
Fuel system upgrades
Port & polished throttle body
Professional installation, testing and PCM tuning
LPE Hand held PCM programmer
Lingenfelter supercharged emblems
Chassis dyno test before and after installation
160 Degree thermostat
LPE cold air induction system
Corsa Pro series touring system
LPE coil covers - Red
Lloyds custom floor mats with LPE logo
2,800 stall torque converter
are the fuel system and injector upgrades necessary while getting the magnacharger or can we just strap it on the stock motor and be ok?

[LPEGoat]

are the fuel system and injector upgrades necessary while getting the magnacharger or can we just strap it on the stock motor and be ok?

I have seen some sites saying you can purchase and bolt it on however I wouldn't recomend that. It seems to get what you want out of the magnacharger a few more things need to be tweeked however I'm sure some other people will know more about it than I? :eek2:

[flyinlow]

Uh, top of the line Skylines and Supras are twin turbos and most of the modified ones I have seen in the magazines also stay twin turbo.

If turbo lag is non existent, how do you explain STi's torque curve, which looks like a mountain peak.

[JZ 97 SS 1500]

Lag is all a variable of cubes, and which turbo unit you use. With the right turbo on any motor, it will blow away a S/C.

BTW I vote for twins T's. How can you go wrong with this GTO/HSV.....
http://www.ls1camaro.net/freehosting/Twin%20Turbo% 20GTS%20086sm.jpg



Jose

[GTOdriver7]

Uh, top of the line Skylines and Supras are twin turbos and most of the modified ones I have seen in the magazines also stay twin turbo.

If turbo lag is non existent, how do you explain STi's torque curve, which looks like a mountain peak.

two things

1- STi said that his car was tuned for performance at the top end, not bottom end.

2- with the PROPER turbo setup, turbo lag should be almost non existant, if not completely so. but again, STi was more concerned about TOP END. it all depends on what you are looking for.

[mistermike]

I have seen some sites saying you can purchase and bolt it on however I wouldn't recomend that. It seems to get what you want out of the magnacharger a few more things need to be tweeked however I'm sure some other people will know more about it than I? :eek2:
Almost any blown LS1 has enough mustard to outrun the injectors and go lean, resulting in potential engine damage. Most any S/C setup sold as a complete kit will have some means of increased fuel delivery. The Magnuson kit sold by TByrne and AP is supplied with increased fuel capacity. The Vortech kit for the LS1 Vette uses stock injectors, but increases fuel pump voltage and warns of possible lean condition at max output. Their F-bod kit comes with upgraded injectors and fuel pump. Just bolting on a blower and nothing else is risky business. I'll leave it to the pros to do the math, and just buy a complete kit.

[phobos512]

...The Magnuson kit sold by TByrne and AP is supplied with increased fuel capacity...

Increased fuel capacity? 'Splain?

[mistermike]

Increased fuel capacity? 'Splain?
New injectors and fuel rails.

[goatee]

...Supras, Skylines, etc... The Higher Horsepowered machines are using a single HUGE Turbo to make power.....

Not to be a total pain, but both these cars run straight six, not the V mentioned in previous post. BTW, I have seen both twin and single setups on these ones......

[Dbluegoat]

New injectors and fuel rails.
and these dont come with the s/c right? Do you have any idea what that stuff will cost and is that it or do we need more?
thanks

[mistermike]

The kit is complete AFAIK. I suppose you could buy an MP112 a la carte if you wanted, but I'm not sure why someone would, unless they were an engineer or highly advanced tech.

[Dbluegoat]

The kit is complete AFAIK. I suppose you could buy an MP112 a la carte if you wanted, but I'm not sure why someone would, unless they were an engineer or highly advanced tech.
Oh ok great...I did not know if it came with it or what and never really thought much about the other stuff needed. Thanks Mike

[whipplegto]

Can you post any pictures of these setups?

You need to check out some of the Aussie forums. Nothing in wide distribution to the public yet but talk is:

Single turbo kits circa 350rwkw (470rwhp) A$8,500 (US$6,000)
Twin turbo kits circa 400rwkw (530rwhp) A$10,000 (US$7,000)

Pretty good value - might be all talk yet. On top of kit cost you have install, tune, custom exhaust and clutch.

You can bet the custom jobbies running around in Australia at the moment cost a bomb.

[goatwrx]

Driving my stock WRX makes me believe there is still alot lag still exists, even when I had an aftermarket turbo, I still had lag. And it wasnt a monster like STi's is was a small aftermarket turbo, VF23. Ever turbo car I have driven still had lag, at least with my experience.

[Screwed Goat]

I would go with a 2.3-3.3L twin screw PD blower on a 400 cid plus motor.

[whipplegto]

I would go with a 2.3-3.3L twin screw PD blower on a 400 cid plus motor.

Wouldn't be much change for the set of tyres you'd go though every week. :)

I saw your motor on the weekend - an LS1 ute ("El Camino" style) with a 3.3L whipple on a 406 (steel block). 600 odd rwhp.

[redneck]

Damn, that's easy. Low-end torque, no lag, simpler plumbing: Roots blower all the way, unless you can get a Whipple.

Was supposed to have installed a Magnacharger by now but I drive the car too much.

[bugeyedbandit]

A guy in OZ has developed a low mount Twin Turbo setup that produces about 500kW at the wheels. I check the figures and the company tonight at home.

[BillyGoatGruff]

Just received an email from STS Turbo and they said that by Nov. this year they will have a specific turbo kit for the GTO. Did not give details upon turbo type or size or bov specs. There is a dealer near, so just give me a few months.

[ACPromotions]

Actually STS is doing a GTO kit right now for a customer but will not be productionizing the GTO kit until later in the year as the concentrate on a Hemi kit for Dodge trucks. Someone on this board may be the customer, if you are out there, give us a shout out and tell us how the fabrication is going.

[97GSTAT]

I'd say turbo all the way. I've had plenty of experience with turbo cars, and there is nothing like them. Can't image more displacement mixed with a single T or even a double T. :eek2:

[ssilverado60]

From my experiences with turbo and S/C cars, I think if you have an A4, go with a turbo. Lag will always be there to an extent, but if you have an auto, you dont have to wait for the turbo to spool up after every shift like an M6. Its also very easy to spool up the turbo when launching with the auto as well. This way you see boost when launching.

And the M6 id say go with the S/C because of the instant boost you get as soon as you get back on the gas after a shift.

I really dont think you can go wrong with either setup, but thats what I would use do determine what I would install on my car. The only reason I went S/C on my truck was because of ease of installation and because the turbo kits werent readily available yet. If I was buying now I would have gone with a single turbo.

Its impossible to eliminate turbo lag, if you have no lag, then your turbos really arent making any power.

[Rob]

I'm partial to turbos :) Lag, which wouldn't be a problem with the GTO, would actually be nice. Back when my car was still running the stock setup, but maxed out, was a good example. My car would take about 500 rpm to reach full boost as evident by the dyno. This was running the stock turbo, injectors, intercooler, downpipe, cat back, etc.

http://users.adelphia.net/~tta1387/1-13-02dyno.gif

A nice single turbo GTO would be a nice thing :) Figure 6-7psi should make for some nice fun :driving:

[mistermike]

Rob, that's an interesting looking set of curves. The downward trend to 5K or so would tend to indicate that the turbo boost is heavily biased toward lower RPM's. Is the normally expected increase in pressure at higher RPM being blown off, or is the turbo overspooling and losing efficiency?

[Rob]

Rob, that's an interesting looking set of curves. The downward trend to 5K or so would tend to indicate that the turbo boost is heavily biased toward lower RPM's. Is the normally expected increase in pressure at higher RPM being blown off, or is the turbo overspooling and losing efficiency?More in the fact that the turbo Buick is a low revving engine. The redline is only 5250. I only shifted at 5K.

I was running 18psi, which is right in the sweet spot for the stock turbo. When you get over 21psi, then you're out of its effiency range and just overheating the air.

[GTO^MOE]

Being a previous turbo owner....I'd opt for the twin turbochargers. They are slightly more maintenance...but you also have many more options. Right now there are no turbo kits available...but they will follow. Superchargers are tops for their relative ease of installation, maintenance, and dollar/hp gain. Turbochargers can give you much greater boost capabilities however and thus more power. THe lag kinda sucks...but gotta love that kick in the ass!

[gotzaGTO]

in the end it all comes down to what you want out of your machine and how much time and money ur willing to spend.
if you go s/c you get boost at low low rmps and less maintaince, but ( theres always a but) your not going to get as much hp unless you have a crazy blower sucking the air in.
if you go t/c your boost wount be there unless you boost ur car or have a twin setup with a two stage system having a baby turbo to wind up quick, but you have to maintain them more and if one breaks closed, yea ur screwed (had to push a buddies GN when the stock turbo went, but got a twin set up with 2 40psi turbos.... mmmmmm..... extreme horsepower.... uhuhuhuhuhuhuh.......)
now for cost.... s/c are a little bit more expensive but have less up keep, and turbos.... can be way cheap or mega expensive depending on what you want....
now what do you want to be stressed on your engine and do you have room for each setups intercooler? s/c use ur belt system, thus stressing the belts and turbos use exaust which is one of the reasons for a way bigger innercooler..... and ofcurse all force air in into the motor and we all know what more air does.
IMHO get a s/c if you want to putz around on the street and have a little more hp to play with, but if this is a car that only sees garage cement and track asphalt, then get the turbos..... but in the end, isnt it all about building a machine to kill yourself in?