Grand Prix Future?

Everyone here is talking about the GTO's future, but the more important question, in my mind, is what happens to Grand Prix. This is Pontiac's bread and butter car, and it doesn't seem like any replacement is in sight. Of course, as RLSedition pointed out in another thread, a GTO is dead in the water without a Grand Prix on which to piggy back.

The Oshawa plant at which it is made is scheduled for closing, and I think that have the same sort of name deal that St. Therese did with Camaro. Will Pontiac get a new mid-size sedan? Will it be RWD?

I thought Grand Prix's where made at Fairfax.

GP replacement is in the works.

Rear drive version last time I read anything about it.

I thought Grand Prix's where made at Fairfax.
They definitely used to be - the sticker on my 2000's door says Fairfax. From what I've read though, the production transferred to Oshawa with the 2004 refresh.

Rear drive version last time I read anything about it.

Last I read was that they have both FWD and RWD versions ready and waiting on a decision on which platform they want to go with. My guess is RWD if the Camaro is a go which looks like it's going to happen.

A RWD 4 door V8 would be nice, not a fan of the 2004+ GP though, hopefully
a new version looks better. I kind of like the Impala SS, just needed to be
RWD and it would have been perfect.

A RWD 4 door V8 would be nice, not a fan of the 2004+ GP though, hopefully
a new version looks better. I kind of like the Impala SS, just needed to be
RWD and it would have been perfect.
G8.

The last Grand Prixs rolled off the Fairfax assembly line in early 2003 when production was transferred to Oshawa and the body style was changed (and 2 door version eliminated) in preparation for the New Malibu sedan and Epsilon platform. That shutdown took almost 6 months from what the electricians at the shop tell me. Now we're just starting to build the new Saturn Aura here and future projects are scheduled in the next couple of years.

We'll see what happens to the Grand Prix. When I left GM they were exploring new exterior designs that would really "move the needle", like the CLS Mercedes sedan.

If I were to choose RWD or FWD, I would pick RWD/AWD for the GP, as it would really allow Pontiac to push the excitement quotient up with that vehicle, both in design and performance. The response to the Camaro concept should help management decide on RWD for the next GP.

Why would you give RWD to the next Impala, given its mission as a family hauler? FWD transverse powertrains still package more efficiently than RWDs.

We'll see what happens to the Grand Prix. When I left GM they were exploring new exterior designs that would really "move the needle", like the CLS Mercedes sedan.

If I were to choose RWD or FWD, I would pick RWD/AWD for the GP, as it would really allow Pontiac to push the excitement quotient up with that vehicle, both in design and performance. The response to the Camaro concept should help management decide on RWD for the next GP.

Why would you give RWD to the next Impala, given its mission as a family hauler? FWD transverse powertrains still package more efficiently than RWDs.


Not to mention that SIGMA is already AWD being produced. Just include a manual option. If management has to look at the Camaro concept response for the case for RWD, then GM needs new management.

Some interesting reading

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060206/FREE/60202029/1003/newsletter12

If I were to choose RWD or FWD, I would pick RWD/AWD for the GP

I am with you all the way on this RLS. We're looking to replace the wife's Maxima and drove an Infiniti G35X last weekend. Outstanding vehicle that is split RWD/AWD. Detroit has nothing like it for anywhere near the money. So once again, even though I would buy a CTS if it could only MATCH the Infiniti, it is only RWD. I'd have to jump up into an STS for over $45K.

Yes, Ford has some AWD models and Chrysler has AWD on its top end, but they have nothing to match the performance and build quality of the G35X. It is fast, fun, extremely well bolted together and most likely getting my and my wife's vote with the wallet.

When the day arrives that Detroit can build something similar, we'll take another look.

GM is investing a ton in the plant that makes the CTS/STS/SRX. That might mean more vehicles based off that RWD/AWD platform. lets hope.

GP replacement is in the works.


I would have bought the Grand Prix GXP if it was RWD, because it's nice to have 4 doors when needed. I like the looks and the interior, but FWD :rant:

So, I have a GTO instead :D

Don't expect GM to use the Sigma platform for mainstream RWD/AWD applications - way too costly a hardware set unless they change design/materials for something less expensive.

OBTW, I would expect the next-gen CTS to offer AWD as an option, since the interest in this feature has increased and the architecture can easily build this combination.

I would expect the next-gen CTS to offer AWD as an option, since the interest in this feature has increased and the architecture can easily build this combination.

That's good news, but too late for my money. They should remember how to bolt them together so that after the mags have done their 40,000+ mile long-term tests, they can report.."the car is as tight and squeek free as the day it was brand new and we incurred no problems even in spirited driving". THEN we'll know that Detroit is back. (I'm not holding my breath)

Yes, I bought a GTO, but it's more of toy not driven in Winter. Had I had to buy something for 365 days transportation, I likely would have sprung for the G35 coupe. The CTS-V and SRT8's are just out reach of what I will permit myself to pay for a single vehicle.

I will say this though, had the Pontiac GXP been available with the RWD/AWD option, it would definitely have been on the hit list. Cars we researched included the Lexus IS-350, Audi A4 Quattro, Volvo S60 and Acura TL. We settled on the G35X because it has the best combo of balls, build quality and AWD when you need it. And price.

And Infiniti is getting ready to spring an all-new gorgeous G platform on the world. They aren't sitting still and Detroit isn't even close to catching up.

RLS, remember back 10-15 years when Nissan was in dire straights and everyone was expecting them to get sold and chopped up? What does history show about their incredible turn around? Product, product, product. Nissan turned it around with great new products that last. They kept releasing new vehicles that the buying public appreciated until their turnaround was complete.

IF GM keeps fighting this war with their trucks and SUVs, they are going to lose. GM needs some truly outstanding new product that is AT LEAST as good as the competition. There are millions of folks out there like me who would buy GM iron if they only find it comparable to what the Nissans and Toyotas of the world are doing.

Don't expect GM to use the Sigma platform for mainstream RWD/AWD applications - way too costly a hardware set unless they change design/materials for something less expensive.

OBTW, I would expect the next-gen CTS to offer AWD as an option, since the interest in this feature has increased and the architecture can easily build this combination.

It is a sure thing.

Some interesting reading

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060206/FREE/60202029/1003/newsletter12


Does GM have a Hemi? No. Could it achieve similar success if it placed a slightly lower horsepower Corvette engine under the hood of the Impala? Maybe. It offered a Corvette engine in the rwd 1994-96 Impala SS. That car is an icon.

wtf? LS series > hemi any day of the week.

But if gasoline prices jump beyond $3 a gallon and stick, the likelihood of huge sales is greatly diminished. bullshit, not if they get that 6speed auto going.

RWD all the way.

...and GM's response to winter driving solutions has been FWD. Yeah, it works, but it ain't the solution that RWD with AWD when needed is. That's one reason why we crossed the Acura TL off the list. Had the wife decided on another Maxima, I would have had her drive the Pontiac Grand Prix GXP just to compare. (then I would have had to factor in resale value in 3-4 years and the Pontiac would have dropped way off the list)

Well, I'm biased in favor of the GXP. Look at the total cost of the purchase, not just resale value. The cars you mentioned would cost $4-5k more than the GXP (which transacts, loaded, in the mid-$27s) in initial transaction price, so their resale had better be good.

OBTW, there is another alternative to AWD in the frozen north: FWD or RWD with dedicated snow tires. Benefits? Much less expensive than AWD, doesn't hurt fuel economy everyday like AWD and keeps the car from feeling like its on anesthesia like many AWD cars do. Negatives? You have to swap tires (or wheel/tire combos) at the changes of season every year, and the tires are an expense item.

^^How many soccer moms do you see throwing Blizzaks on in the start of the winter season?

A lot of people still think FWD=teh win, but many are starting to come out of hypnosis and go back to RWD. AWD is a much better choice for snow and such without having to go to strictly winter tires and remains in the performance line-up.

My dad wants an Impala SS. Then we found out it was FWD. He's waiting for a RWD version to come out.

The best solution to winter driving without sacrificing vehicle dynamic handling is the combo of RWD/AWD no question. Kudos to Infiniti for making it a reality on a car many people can afford. I thought the Audi Quattro system, while nice, did not have the same feel as Infiniti's. The Volvo S60 felt clunky and the Acura was nice but FWD.

We got tired of switching from performace radials to snows and back twice a year.

My GTO is driven 365 days a year and is excellent in the snow.

I live in Michigan where the weather is ridiculous, and I have yet to have any problems. FWD being better than RWD in the snow is overrated, completely depends on the car's weight distribution and tires.

Have run into situations where we got 6 inches of packing snow, other people were stuck with FWD and I plowed right by. Very impressed with this car's many attributes.

They should stick this FWD PoS in the pasture where it belongs.

My GTO is driven 365 days a year and is excellent in the snow.

I live in Michigan where the weather is ridiculous, and I have yet to have any problems. FWD being better than RWD in the snow is overrated, completely depends on the car's weight distribution and tires.

Have run into situations where we got 6 inches of packing snow, other people were stuck with FWD and I plowed right by. Very impressed with this car's many attributes.

I hear you. I never could understand some folk's rationale of sacraficing ten months of rwd fun for two months of perceived fwd benefits. They seem as if it snows year round. I've always reached my destinations in my rwd cars.

Sorry, not buying it, guys. I was in a 2005 GTO just a little over a year ago (Thanksgiving time) and was caught in a surprise ice/snow storm south of Frankenmuth on I75. Minding my own business in traffic at 40 MPH. Backed off the throttle just a tad to deal with a slowing car in front of me and the car let go in the rear. Tried to save it, but I spun around and was hit in the RF fender by a passing car.

Now, I was on the factory 18" wheels with "summer" tires, so that would explain it somewhat. But if you RWD guys use summer tires then change over to all-season in winter you're doing what I suggest (changing tires for the seasons).

I still like RWD with winter tires as I think its the best/most economical solution and about equal, traction-wise, to FWD with all-seasons. Where in the US do you really need AWD unless you live in the mountains? I'd rather avoid the $2000 bill.

I hear you. I never could understand some folk's rationale of sacraficing ten months of rwd fun for two months of perceived fwd benefits. They seem as if it snows year round. I've always reached my destinations in my rwd cars.

Here's what you do not "get": Not everyone wants to subject their GTO to snow, sand, salt and crap through the winter months. AWD is a better solution with RWD when it's nice out. There's a 347 pound weight penalty and 1-2MPG drop. Big wup. In New England, snow, ice, salt and sand are a fact of life from November through April. That's 6 months out of the year and in 10 years my GTO will have not seen any of it.

The last Grand Prixs rolled off the Fairfax assembly line in early 2003 when production was transferred to Oshawa and the body style was changed (and 2 door version eliminated) in preparation for the New Malibu sedan and Epsilon platform. That shutdown took almost 6 months from what the electricians at the shop tell me. Now we're just starting to build the new Saturn Aura here and future projects are scheduled in the next couple of years.

Actually the last year for a Grand Prix coupe was in 2002.

I really don't like the new Grand Prix styling and even though the GXP is nice there is no way I would buy another FWD car.

Will just have to wait and see what GM does next.

I really don't like the new Grand Prix styling and even though the GXP is nice there is no way I would buy another FWD car.


AMEN Brother! I screamed loud and clear about the new GP's design when it came out. I believe they trashed what was a very aesthetic, smooth style in the previous generation. It's like ALL of GM Design lost their minds and started designing NewAge Smegma for Budding Rocketeers! I am quite sure if you check the sales figures for the Grand Prix new design versus older design, you will see a drop in sales.

The GXP is about as nice as you can get this design, but it still smacks of perfume doppled on a turd. When the Designers ever decide to return to planet Earth and begin crafting beautiful skin for their cars, maybe some of customers may return as well.

Couple beautiful designs with outrageous innovations such as RWD/AWD, more then 4-speed autos and God knows what might happen? (But don't bet the house on this....I see where Pontiac's going to re-badge a Cobalt and pretend like they know what the market wants. LOL!!!!!!!)

I am now of the mind that GM must die in order for American Engineering and Design to come back, crush the Accounting Product Brand Managers and re-establish American superiority in this marketplace. I thought Lutz might be able to quash the bean-counters, but I fear I was mistaken.

Sorry, not buying it, guys. I was in a 2005 GTO just a little over a year ago (Thanksgiving time) and was caught in a surprise ice/snow storm south of Frankenmuth on I75. Minding my own business in traffic at 40 MPH. Backed off the throttle just a tad to deal with a slowing car in front of me and the car let go in the rear. Tried to save it, but I spun around and was hit in the RF fender by a passing car.

Now, I was on the factory 18" wheels with "summer" tires, so that would explain it somewhat. But if you RWD guys use summer tires then change over to all-season in winter you're doing what I suggest (changing tires for the seasons).

I still like RWD with winter tires as I think its the best/most economical solution and about equal, traction-wise, to FWD with all-seasons. Where in the US do you really need AWD unless you live in the mountains? I'd rather avoid the $2000 bill.

Soooo...you aren't buying it because you crashed you car with low profile summer tires in the snow? My point about the FWD long living lie answered.

GM needs to die, and then reincarnate itself into something better. I got an '04 GTO because I didn't like the newer GP's.

I owned a 98 GP. One of the best cars I ever owned. The car looked good and was trouble free. My Brother in Law started to work for Nissan so I let him convince me to trade for a 2003 Maxima. The car was nice in general but had several bad flaws. The turning radius was terrible and the high hp V6 (265 FWD) caused the steering wheel to torque badly. I kept it a couple of years and traded back for a 2005 GP GXP. Even with 303hp V8 it doesn't have the steering wheel torque problem as the Maxima. The only thing I dislike is the fact that the front tires are much larger than the rear. No tire rotation on this baby. The displacement on demand engine has been quite impressive. We squeezed out 27mpg on our last road trip. The car is fun to drive and has several features I wish my GTO had, such as the heads up display and bump shifter on the steering wheel. I agree with most of the comments here that the styling could have been better. The rear spoiler could ne a lot better looking. I am still looking for a after market that could improve the looks. Personally, I am through with foreign cars. I know there is a lot of debate these days on what is domestic or foreign and won't go there. I will continue to restore old GM muscle cars to the grave. For fun and to get my seg, I want the big block torquers that set you back in the seat. It is nice to see so many young car lovers that appreciate the cars of the past and present muscle cars. I still believe that owning a home and a nice muscle car is the American dream. Lets keep it this way for our childrens sake.

Sorry, not buying it, guys. I was in a 2005 GTO just a little over a year ago (Thanksgiving time) and was caught in a surprise ice/snow storm south of Frankenmuth on I75. Minding my own business in traffic at 40 MPH. Backed off the throttle just a tad to deal with a slowing car in front of me and the car let go in the rear. Tried to save it, but I spun around and was hit in the RF fender by a passing car.

Now, I was on the factory 18" wheels with "summer" tires, so that would explain it somewhat. But if you RWD guys use summer tires then change over to all-season in winter you're doing what I suggest (changing tires for the seasons).

I still like RWD with winter tires as I think its the best/most economical solution and about equal, traction-wise, to FWD with all-seasons. Where in the US do you really need AWD unless you live in the mountains? I'd rather avoid the $2000 bill.

So your motion towards FWD is because you were dumb enough to use summer tires in the snow/ice? Let alone the cold weather?

There is a reason they are called summer tires. They are meant for the summer.

I am still looking for a after market that could improve the looks.

Me too..spoiler options for the 04+ GP suck.

I think its kinda funny you guys pick on the 04+ GP for its looks. Don't get me started, but I get way more looks and compliments on the GP's looks than the GTO. Now of course that changes when the LS 1 roars, but still BOTH cars need improvement which just shouldn't be so.....

GM's designers just don't get it.

Well, I'm biased in favor of the GXP. Look at the total cost of the purchase, not just resale value. The cars you mentioned would cost $4-5k more than the GXP (which transacts, loaded, in the mid-$27s) in initial transaction price, so their resale had better be good.

Well, the GXP on the floor of the Chicago Auto Show was $30K and change. I was interested in it, but the build quality didn't make it worth the $$$ to me. GM DOES need the Nissan type of reform and the GTO had it. For example, the Solstice doesn't have it either...

The 97 GTP I have is the 3rd best car I have ever owned. My 68 GTO and my 05 the top 2. I'm a 2 door person and don't like the fact that they stopped making them. Other than the torque steer the car has been fun and I still get compliments on it's looks.

When the time comes for another winter car I will try to find an 02 GTP and have good times in one of the better fwd cars around.

When you look at window sticker pricing, that is MSRP, not a transaction price. The transaction price is what you really paid for the car, not where the negotiations started. On this measure (transaction price), the imports competitive with the GXP are quite a bit more expensive to buy.

I had a 3.4 DOHC Supreme Cutlass 4-door. And a 2-door. And a 1998 Buck Regal with the S/C engine. And a 3.1 Lumina. All good cars for what they were. As I mentioned I've been a GM man all my life. No more. GM needs to fire every Financial and Marketing Brand Manager it employs and start over. They are broken.

It took every other mfg. less than half the time to bring 5 and 6-speed autos to the market...with less than half the people on staff. Design has improved slightly, but even the new Impala and Monte Carlos are generic bubble-butts that break no new ground and are typical of the "cautious, guarded" BRAND design theme that now dominates this dinosaur.

What a friggin shame. At least Chrysler is **trying** to innovate while GM tries to not offend anyone. Living life trying not to offend anyone is a sure fire way to the trashheap. Personally, I thought the Aztec was the single most offensive design ever to find the light of day. I never before saw a vehicle so hideously ugly that I broke out laughing the first time I saw it!!!!!

*trying** to innovate while GM tries to not offend anyone. Living life trying not to offend anyone is a sure fire way to the trashheap. Personally, I thought the Aztec was the single most offensive design ever to find the light of day. I never before saw a vehicle so hideously ugly that I broke out laughing the first time I saw it!!!!!


Lol...simply hypocritical. Whether you hate the Aztek or not, they were trying to innovate..they missed the mark and paid dearly for it....it really lead the way for the X-over type vehicle, inspite of its ugliness...GM gets the brunt of it...personally I think the Honda $hitbox thing with the mismatched fenders is worse than the Aztek and so is the Scion milk truck...but they come from Imports so they have to be good...

With the GTO they were trying to innovate..they didn't just make a retro thingy and hope for the best. GTO was RIPPED to death about its looks.

I wonder why GM is gun shy about trying a cutting edge design? Last thing it needs is another design failure.

I think the biggest problem is that GM comes up with a good concept vehicle the concept Aztek was pretty cool..they the production vehicle comes along with different dimensions, smaller wheels and missing half the surprise and delight features..and they scratch their heads.

I don't think they aren't trying..I just think they aren't doing it right.

GM needs to fire every Financial and Marketing Brand Manager it employs and start over. They are broken.

Yes, I agree..if the manufacturing/quality guys did as bad..they'd be fired.

People love cars...they will overlook quality even if they like the car enough.

Wagoner got it in his thick head that since trucks and suvs were his most profitable platforms, he'd "shoot the works" investing in the new truck/suv platforms and interiors. Gee, that sounds like a great idea and all, but what happens if the truck/suv market falls off the edge of the earth? Guess What?

He bet wrong and all the while Lutz was telling him not to put his eggs in one basket. Now what? The japanese will use the same tactic they've used against Ford/GM/Chrysler over the past 25 years....they will steal market share ever so slowly by building demonstrably superior vehicles for the money and people will begin buying more of their product. They don't do it overnight...it's a drip drip drip thing.

GM forgot about the bread and butter sedan. But what really rails most Americans who would be patriotic with their dollars if they felt they could be is Quality Control and how they are treated by Dealers. The operation of most American dealerships is disgraceful. A complete and total sham which has driven so many hundreds of thousands of people into foreign showrooms.

I can not tell you how respectfully and decently I was treated by the Infiniti dealership (and these are all former American dealership employees working there mind you) No pressure, but a confident presentation of their product and a nice thank you. And oh by the way, I will have a loaner available whenever I have to bring the car in for service, even if it's a oil change the loaner is mine to go shop with while they change oil and filter. And the warranty is 4 years/60K bumper to bumper. 70K on the powertrain.

I want GM, Ford and Chrysler to succeed. I want American cars and trucks to be the best in each price class in the world for quality and performance. I want to walk into American car dealerships and be treated like a human being once again. I can dream, can't I?

Allright, bonequark, enough is enough.

Yes, GM brass has many errors with product, and they have paid the price in sales. I'm not supporting Aztek styling, but the Element and Xb Scion are as bad or worse, as was already mentioned. Ug-g--h-h-l-y!

Yes, I'm sure some dealers are bad, but not all. If you want to cite Infiniti, then use Cadillac as a fair comparison. Cadillac dealers really try to do the right thing, from my current experiences.

I now have two Caddies, a CTS and SRX, and like them both. No squeaks/rattles/wind noise, great chassis, competitive powertrains and great styling (Lexus, Acura and Infiniti should be so original).

GM needs to expand the Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer product philosophy to their high-volume products. The drive to "be the best" in a segment is needed in more than luxury/niche products.

With the current platform GTO dead and an uncertain comeback future ahead, and the GP plant closing down with some kind of replacement likely, I think GM should go back to basics and make the GTO a coupe/engine option for whatever the GP replacement is . . . maybe kill the Grand Prix name and revive the Tempest name ? A new modern design, with subtle retro cues would be cool.

The current GP is already a V8 - so the GTO would be a great engine upgrade to the LS2 . . the only sticking point for me is that this new car would have to be RWD and I wonder how many sales they would lose in the snow belt because of this.

how about an AWD GTO option. lol ? is that even possible from the standpoint of a FWD car platform?

GM forgot about the bread and butter sedan. But what really rails most Americans who would be patriotic with their dollars if they felt they could be is Quality Control and how they are treated by Dealers. The operation of most American dealerships is disgraceful. A complete and total sham which has driven so many hundreds of thousands of people into foreign showrooms.

I can not tell you how respectfully and decently I was treated by the Infiniti dealership (and these are all former American dealership employees working there mind you) No pressure, but a confident presentation of their product and a nice thank you. And oh by the way, I will have a loaner available whenever I have to bring the car in for service, even if it's a oil change the loaner is mine to go shop with while they change oil and filter.

What a bunch of baloney about these 'almighty' foreign car dealers. I've had two distinctly unpleasant experiences at dealers of imports:

1. I went to a Mazda dealer (quite a few years ago) due to getting a bonus card in the mail about receiving a free book if I test drove a Mazda. I went in there with a neutral and open mind, and presented the card while also asking for a test drive. I've never seen such arrogance, even rudeness from a dealer as a result. Their attitude was basically "Hey, if you're not going to BUY a car today, why should we let you test one?" The test car had 1/32 of a tank of gas (which the salesman refused to do anything about), the salesman of course had to come along with me and criticise my driving to boot, and they practically shooed me out of the showroom afterward. I'll never be going back to look at another Mazda.
2. I went to a Lexus dealer, actually to inquire about a used Grand Prix there. I got there right when they opened for the day. I walked into the new car showroom out of curiosity. The receptionist said, "can I help you?", I said, "Is there anyone in sales available?", she said "No. All of sales is in a MEETING they hold each morning when we open." Oh. Excuse me! Didn't know I need to schedule my little car shopping around their MEETINGS :rolleyes: ....so about a half hour later I finally got a salesperson. Needless to say... won't be going for a Lexus either.

When I ran sales for a dealer who shall remain nameless, there were always 2 or 3 people/couples per month we would politely show the door to. We would ask them to shop elsewhere. Usually it's the folks who think they should be able to buy a $25,000 car for $15,000. They would get one explanation of how business works and if that wasn't good enough, we would ask them to have a nice day!

When I ran sales for a dealer who shall remain nameless, there were always 2 or 3 people/couples per month we would politely show the door to. We would ask them to shop elsewhere. Usually it's the folks who think they should be able to buy a $25,000 car for $15,000. They would get one explanation of how business works and if that wasn't good enough, we would ask them to have a nice day!
Well isn't that nice? (?) My examples are a little different though. I didn't go into that Mazda dealer saying "Gee guys, I got this card, and now I've also decided I will buy a Mazda to show my appreciation! Should I pay sticker?" Instead - I was quite open and honest, I said "here's the card I got, I do want to test drive a Mazda as I was invited to, and have not ruled out buying one." The clowns there basically defeated the whole purpose of Mazda's promotion - to get folks in to the showroom and have them try a new Mazda. As for my other example - no one was available to "wish me a nice day" :D

There are bad dealers on both sides of the aisle, agreed. When I got the GTO, I had to shop quite a few different dealers before I found one willing to bend a bit on price. And in a probably ironic twist of fate, the week after I bought the GTO, this dealer sold their Pontiac medallion!

RLS hit the nail on the head. With better products coming, if GM can bring the Cadillac experience into the mass market dealerships, they'll turn things around. And the next Grand Prix really should be both AWD/RWD to compete with the BMW/Inifinit/Lexus of the world.

i loved my '98 grand prix, even with the L67. Ultimately what made me sell is was the hate of weak transaxles that couldn't handle a pumped up L67. Had it been in a RWD package, i would have never had trans problems. Besides it sucks when you have a car that can hand your GTO it's ass, but it's no fun to drive.

I am with you all the way on this RLS. We're looking to replace the wife's Maxima and drove an Infiniti G35X last weekend. Outstanding vehicle that is split RWD/AWD. Detroit has nothing like it for anywhere near the money. So once again, even though I would buy a CTS if it could only MATCH the Infiniti, it is only RWD. I'd have to jump up into an STS for over $45K.

Yes, Ford has some AWD models and Chrysler has AWD on its top end, but they have nothing to match the performance and build quality of the G35X. It is fast, fun, extremely well bolted together and most likely getting my and my wife's vote with the wallet.

When the day arrives that Detroit can build something similar, we'll take another look.

The only 2 problems I have with the G35x is that they have cheap interiors and a noisy engine, esp. in comparison to my i30t. I get G35x loaners all the time when I have work done on the i30t.

Wagoner got it in his thick head that since trucks and suvs were his most profitable platforms, he'd "shoot the works" investing in the new truck/suv platforms and interiors. Gee, that sounds like a great idea and all, but what happens if the truck/suv market falls off the edge of the earth? Guess What?

He bet wrong and all the while Lutz was telling him not to put his eggs in one basket. Now what? The japanese will use the same tactic they've used against Ford/GM/Chrysler over the past 25 years....they will steal market share ever so slowly by building demonstrably superior vehicles for the money and people will begin buying more of their product. They don't do it overnight...it's a drip drip drip thing.

GM forgot about the bread and butter sedan. But what really rails most Americans who would be patriotic with their dollars if they felt they could be is Quality Control and how they are treated by Dealers. The operation of most American dealerships is disgraceful. A complete and total sham which has driven so many hundreds of thousands of people into foreign showrooms.

I can not tell you how respectfully and decently I was treated by the Infiniti dealership (and these are all former American dealership employees working there mind you) No pressure, but a confident presentation of their product and a nice thank you. And oh by the way, I will have a loaner available whenever I have to bring the car in for service, even if it's a oil change the loaner is mine to go shop with while they change oil and filter. And the warranty is 4 years/60K bumper to bumper. 70K on the powertrain.

I want GM, Ford and Chrysler to succeed. I want American cars and trucks to be the best in each price class in the world for quality and performance. I want to walk into American car dealerships and be treated like a human being once again. I can dream, can't I?

You have to remember the Infiniti dealer is required to give you a loaner car and is a luxury or upscale brand. I have a I30t. The Nissan dealers have no loaners and they are just as bad as GM-Ford etc dealerships. When we were looking at cars in 2002, we looked at the then all new 240hp Altima V6 and all 3 Nissan dealers were as bad as GM dealer in the way they treated you. If you can afford extra $$ for the infiniti over Nissan, do it.

A bunch of Honda dealers have the "Take it or leave it attitude" while possibly looking at a Odyssey.

The Nissan dealers have no loaners and they are just as bad as GM-Ford etc dealerships.

That's funny, we bought a 2002 Maxima and always got a loaner when we needed it, no questions asked. With the last Buick we bought, we wouldn't sign the papers until they had "loaner to be made available to customer whenever car is in for service" hand written into the contract. They can do it if they want to.

That's funny, we bought a 2002 Maxima and always got a loaner when we needed it, no questions asked. With the last Buick we bought, we wouldn't sign the papers until they had "loaner to be made available to customer whenever car is in for service" hand written into the contract. They can do it if they want to.

Some GM dealers are nice, for example I got a loaner for the GTO when the O2 sensor went bad and they had to keep it overnight without even asking for it at my Pontiac Dealer.

I had a 1965 GP 2 years ago. I think that one was one of the all time great coke bottle slabs of car. It has suffered greatly since then. Gobs of ugly plastic bolt ons, front wheel drive, I surpised it survived this long at all.

But the 1965 is one hell of a beutiful car inside and out as it fought with lincolns for marketshare back then. Lets hope they look at recreating the 1965 design language and attributes if the go for real GP. LS2 while they are at it. After 1966 it got bloated and was never the same.