New Tire Balance Problems........Anyone Else?

[J.E.T.]

I've gone through three different sets of tires in the last month or so due to "out of round" issues. Has anyone else experienced this problem? I have the Pedders Street II and new Baer brakes installed on the car along with the stock 17" rims (chromed). LMK...........


JET

[Luke@tirerack]

use www.hunter.com to find a shop with a GSP9700 road force balancer

[J.E.T.]

use www.hunter.com to find a shop with a GSP9700 road force balancer

Doesn't make a difference if the operator of the machine isn't trained properly or takes the time necessary to make sure the balance is spot on...........

JET

[tkd0706]

Actually you would have to be pretty much retarded to not be able to get a perfect balance with a Hunter 9700 machine. The damn thing does basically everything for you, all you have to do is hammer on the weights.

[GagToe]

Actually you would have to be pretty much retarded to not be able to get a perfect balance with a Hunter 9700 machine. The damn thing does basically everything for you, all you have to do is hammer on the weights.
I don't like hammered weights on my aftermarket wheels, get the sticky lead

[1stGOAT]

I've gone through three different sets of tires in the last month or so due to "out of round" issues. Has anyone else experienced this problem? I have the Pedders Street II and new Baer brakes installed on the car along with the stock 17" rims (chromed). LMK...........


JET

My Goodyear F1's have been difficult for them to balance. I don't know what difficult means in terms of what they had to do to get them balanced but it took them quite a while. My brother in-law was the service manager so I know was not getting a BS line. It is just about time to replace the rears and I really like the F1's but I may try something else. Not sure what, probably see what the Corvette guys are running.

[J.E.T.]

In talking with my suspension guys today who still do the "on car" balance method I was told that even after the Hunter method is done they use the "on car" balance machine to check the Hunter's findings........you tell me.

JET

[MidwestPd]

As stated above you would really have to try hard to get an improper balance with a 9700. We use one at the shop and I will say there are random occassions where troubleshooting is necessary, but it is definitely rare. Have they checked bare wheel runout aside from the total assembly runout? They can also match the high and low spots of wheel and tire to remove some of the total assembly runout, this usually is a last resort. Are they using an inner and outter tape weight or lip/tape. Many wheels we come across come in with weights missing because people prior are too lazy to clean the mating surface off so the tape weights can adhere properly, we will also use aluminum tape in certain applications to make sure they never fall off.

[EEZGOAT]

i had the high speed bal done a week ago and it like butter now. b4, my wacht on my left wrist would make a lot of clanking noise

[J.E.T.]

As stated above you would really have to try hard to get an improper balance with a 9700. We use one at the shop and I will say there are random occassions where troubleshooting is necessary, but it is definitely rare. Have they checked bare wheel runout aside from the total assembly runout? They can also match the high and low spots of wheel and tire to remove some of the total assembly runout, this usually is a last resort. Are they using an inner and outter tape weight or lip/tape. Many wheels we come across come in with weights missing because people prior are too lazy to clean the mating surface off so the tape weights can adhere properly, we will also use aluminum tape in certain applications to make sure they never fall off.

They did everything pretty much by the book but didn't do a a bare wheel runout........not necessary at all in this case. The back tires are clearly out of round, you can see it when the car is jacked up and in gear.......no brainer. The 9700 and all other balance machines like it were designed to do a lot of balances in a short period of time. On car balancing takes a lot more time to do it right hence checking problem balances are its main benefit.

JET

[MidwestPd]

They did everything pretty much by the book but didn't do a a bare wheel runout........not necessary at all in this case. The back tires are clearly out of round, you can see it when the car is jacked up and in gear.......no brainer. The 9700 and all other balance machines like it were designed to do a lot of balances in a short period of time. On car balancing takes a lot more time to do it right hence checking problem balances are its main benefit.

JET


That is false, a 9700 when used to its capacity will take significantly longer than a standard balance. Thus added costs. We have had certain issues with GSD3's but matched them up with the wheel to balance extremely well with a low total assembly runout. Goodluck

[J.E.T.]

Let's just say we'll agree that we disagree about this machine and it's "effectiveness".........

JET

[sccaGTO]

JET, I remember the problems you had with the GS-D3s. I remember this set is the Michelin Pilot PS2, correct? What was the other brand? Just for reference, I was informed by our Michelin representatives that they will not warranty a tire as out of round based on the road force balancer's read-out. Has it been all 4 tires that were defined as out of round, or 1 or 2 each time? Since this is the third set of tires that is giving you trouble, the previously mentioned question of wheel runout is looking like a possibility.

[J.E.T.]

JET, I remember the problems you had with the GS-D3s. I remember this set is the Michelin Pilot PS2, correct? What was the other brand? Just for reference, I was informed by our Michelin representatives that they will not warranty a tire as out of round based on the road force balancer's read-out. Has it been all 4 tires that were defined as out of round, or 1 or 2 each time? Since this is the third set of tires that is giving you trouble, the previously mentioned question of wheel runout is looking like a possibility.

I'd believe that if it was just my thoughts on this......it's not. They've been looked over by a VERY competent shop and it's the tires, no question. The other set that was on about two days prior were a set of the Dunlop Sport Maxx, also out of round and sent back to Tire Rack who I now firmly believe sells "seconds" and less than perfect product.....hence their low prices. As far as Michelin is concerned I've only had one other out of round problem with their products and that was on my '05 Caddy CTS. One of the rears was bad and even though Michelin wouldn't take responsibility the Caddy dealer replaced it. If anyone believes that mass produced products like tires are fool proof I've got beach front property in Idaho I'd like to sell 'em. I'm running stock 17" rims that were fine with the stock BFG's and also fine for a few thousand miles running the Goodyear G3's........it's not a rim problem, it's a tire problem. Having been in the service station business for many, many years and having sold and installed thousands of tires I'm here to tell you that my problem is not unique. Some people will put up with minor balance problems on their cars.......I won't. At 150 mph plus the LAST thing you need is vibrations of ANY kind.

JET

BTW.......only three of the four Michelins is bad, one is spot on.

[sccaGTO]

I agree that tires are not fool proof. I've seen it too many times. As for any retailer selling "seconds", I can't say. I've only dealt with Tire Rack on one set of tires. I had no problem from the tires. Do you think there is a possibilty of a vibration in the driveshaft? Or a worn front suspension part? Does the vibration come from the same end of the car? No trying to divert the problem, just thinking out loud.

[J.E.T.]

I agree that tires are not fool proof. I've seen it too many times. As for any retailer selling "seconds", I can't say. I've only dealt with Tire Rack on one set of tires. I had no problem from the tires. Do you think there is a possibilty of a vibration in the driveshaft? Or a worn front suspension part? Does the vibration come from the same end of the car? No trying to divert the problem, just thinking out loud.

I appreciate the thoughts but no, the car has only 14K miles on it now and the suspension was recently replaced with the Pedders Street II. Also, brakes were completely replaced with Baer's. I'll post tomorrow after the Michelin rep gets to do his song and dance.........should be entertaining. In talking with the Sears rep the other day I heard stories of so many tires being returned for balance problems that it wasn't funny. Nice thing about Sears is that they stand behind their products.......no questions asked.


JET

[J.E.T.]

Update:

Well finally met with the corporate guy......Michelin rep was still out "sick" so she couldn't be there. Had their balance guy do run-out checks on bare rims.......no problems. Then tried one of the new Michelins they had shipped in........couldn't get it to balance. Worked on the rears and got them pretty good but when I got out on the open road the steering wheel started vibrating again starting at 63 mph. Took it right back to the shop and corporate guy just shook his head and said he'd refund my money, no problem. He said he had just gotten off the phone with the Michelin factory and they told him that they were "not fans" of the Hunter force balance system but corporate guy said that's all they had to work with. Took the car back to my suspension guys who do the on-car balance and they said they would try to get the fronts to balance out good enough for me. I told 'em I just wanted to take 'em back for a refund but they insisted. One thing of interest, the mfg. date of these tires was 2004. These tires were almost two years old (new). I thought the PS2 was a new Michelin model line..........go figure.

JET

[dsclark]

Tire rack doesn't sell seconds. As a matter of fact, most of the local tire stores in my area buy from them (they are located 30 miles away).
It has been 25 years since I have balanced a tire, but I remember that if I had a tire that couldn't be balanced, a trick was to break the bead and move the tire on the rim a few inches. This always worked.

[J.E.T.]

Tire rack doesn't sell seconds. As a matter of fact, most of the local tire stores in my area buy from them (they are located 30 miles away).
It has been 25 years since I have balanced a tire, but I remember that if I had a tire that couldn't be balanced, a trick was to break the bead and move the tire on the rim a few inches. This always worked.

Balance guy at this shop tried EVERY trick he knew but still couldn't get it right for some reason. Maybe his machine wasn't calibrated correctly or maybe the tires were just bad which I believe is the cause. Going tire shopping again tomorrow. I'll get some good rubber on this beast, one way or another, believe me. As far as Tire Rack is concerned I know what I know.....that's all.

JET

[DVS]

I use a GSP9700 and road force balance Michelins on Navigators all day, but couldn't balance out a vibration from the stock BFGs that started around 12k miles... the machine will match tire high/low spots to rim high/low spots as best it can, but ultimately if a tire is bad, it can only minimize it so much, no matter where you rotate the tire on the rim!

[GTO1_OHIO]

Back in the early 90's I worked on major factory automation projects at several Michelin plants in the US. At that time anyhow, they ran 100% of the tires though the uniformity testing machines (thats the area of the project I worked on) to see which OEM or the retailers minimum specifications that each and every tire matched. Basically there was no way a tire that was out of round would be passed and shipped. The tire would be cut if really bad or else designated not for US market. So if this (100% testing) is still the case I can see how the factory or local Michelin rep would be surprised.

As far a quality between OEM and some major mass retailers is concerned there is a very big difference in the minimum acceptable specification. If I remember correctly Sears had pretty good specs while Sams Club...not so good. Tirerack I have no clue as to what quality tire they will accept.

[Yeller Jakett]

Sigh! If I've told you people a thousand times... Go old school and get'em balanced on the car. Then TRUED. Like buddah! Especially a good thing when you get new tires. It helps them wear more evenly from the start. It might not even be your wheels or tires but your rotors. An on the car balance should handle this so it probably isn't your rotors from what you've said. Truck (i.e semis) places that do alignments and tires usually do this kind of work. Hope this helps and good luck!

[J.E.T.]

I use a GSP9700 and road force balance Michelins on Navigators all day, but couldn't balance out a vibration from the stock BFGs that started around 12k miles... the machine will match tire high/low spots to rim high/low spots as best it can, but ultimately if a tire is bad, it can only minimize it so much, no matter where you rotate the tire on the rim!

Thanks.........finally a pro offers some sane advice. The machine is a machine, pure and simple. People are people, pure and simple. Match the two and you NEVER know what you'll get. All I can say for sure is that I've never had such problems with tires. And I've been buyin' 'em for over 40 years. I honestly think that "quality control" is totally gone when it comes to mass produced items, especially tires. I also firmly believe there are "grades" of tires. It's a sad thing that the most important component of a vehicle........where the rubber meets the road, is the most inconsistant. Your life depends on these things..........I refuse to settle for anything but top shelf stuff. If I die in a car it will be on good, well balanced tires. As the previous poster stated, "on car balancing" is the absolute best there is. It's a shame that it's almost a lost art.

JET