Best Torque/Horsepower Bolt-On?

[dozlert]

There are lots of power adder options we have read about in the mags, on this forum and from experience of previous LS1 (F & Y body) owners. As we all know, the LS1 has more aftermarket options than an Integra with a 1.8 (that's alot). Which is best?

[DevilYellow]

The power adders will haev more torque hands down, however there is alot more than just peak HP and TQ. Its dependability, driveability, COST.....

[dozlert]

You are correct! Depending on the bolt-on, you may have to change a few other items to make it more reliable/driveable. You may have to modify your exhaust, fuel injectors, engine bay, compression, etc. Poor folks from Cali will also have to comply with emission standards. Overall, you must have a plan rather than purchasing and bolting on power adders as the money comes available. You have to know what you want as an end product and what the car will ultimately be used for. And that is exactly where many of us are...on the fence between a few of these add-ons. So, since I cannot be decisive, I thought I would post this poll so y'all can help me make a damn decision! LOL.

[adearmas]

I've been doing same as you guys. Looking around and deciding if there's something I can do to increase power and performance without having to do major surgery on my GTO. Being no mechanic myself I am not getting into mods I may not take to GM for service.

First there's air intake to consider. Basically if your car has more colder (thus denser air) availabe it will give you more bang. I have seen tests where a simple KN drop in air filter performs no better than the stock airfilter. Seems like the stock airfilter is good. So that's out.

Then there has been much controversy about the Cold Air Induction systems like KN's, Lingelfelter, so on and so forth. Basically these systems give you a larger air tube and larger surface filtering surface areas since it is a conical filter instead of a flat stock filter. I have not seen real numbers surface area measurements to compare with stock so no decision on that account. These systems take air from under the hood while the stock systems feeds from air further below near the lower edege and in front of the radiator. Some argue that the higher under the hood air is hotter do to the LS1's ability to generate much heat; thus, even if the filter itself has a larger air flow capacity, it is feeding hotter less dense air and, thus, it reallly has less air molecules per unit of space, thus less mass defeating its purpose. This seems to be the position asumed by the GM engineers in designing the stock airbox system. I have also seen plausible postures of people here who have made some tests on the subject and they claim that once the car is accelerating the temperatures even out under the hood so that the air temperature and density it is comparable with stock. That way, they argue, the CAI system gives you the edge (small hp gain). Everybody seems to agree the Cold Air induction it is not, since the air is not cold at all. To that effect, some guys here have developed modifications to the modifications adding longer tubes and positioning the conical KN air filter below its designed position, down below by the lower end of the radiator. What seems like a logical idea happens to be a terrible mistake according to others; because, adding curvatures to the tubes increeases restriction (They show a study on it to prove their point. It is not just hearsay.). Moreover, the air intake is posterior to the radiators frontal plane and not anterior to the radiator as GM designed its air intake.

There are other finer mods like changing MAF's and stuff like that which will require retuning your car and manteinance. Lot's of fitting problems here.

Conclusion, you should dyno your car stock and do your mods. and dyno again. If you feel like spending close to $300.00 for a CAI system and then testing to see what happens go ahead. Then again question is how much hp you gain and if the gain is significant for your purposes. You should realize that these filters use some type of oil while stock filter is dry and it properly protects your car against undesirable particulate in air.

It seems that everybody agrees that supercharging your car is the only real option for reliable and significant hp gain due to air intake modification. A supercharger will put your car in a different class. Then again sc is not bolt on at all and requires major changes in your car, after installation tuning and testing making you now dependant on a high performance mechanic shop for your needs.

Cams, heads and other engine components mods are reliable options but then again that is not bolt on and requirers major surgery and high performace mechanics. You cannot go to GM nor Pep Boys anymore. That's the kind of stuff you do if yoiu want to go to the tracks and actually do some serious racing. You can take your car above 500 hp with such mods. and kill yourself in street racing at the same time. Any of these modifications will cost you anywhere between $6000 to $18000 and maybe more.

So far for you and me it is CAI or nothing.

Then there is exhaust to play with. You may add headers. There's like two kinds, I gather. Shorties and Long Tubes. They tell me that shorties are easier to install while long tubes require more fitting and accomodating around though they will give you the best performance. That's not all. Headers may be ceramic coated for better heat handling. See, you do not want all that heat dissipating near your engine. Once the air is out the headers there are the cats. They say you want to have hi flowing cats or none at all. How your stock cats stand up to aftermarket cats I have no idea. I am not sure but it seems like if you change the headers you also have to tune your car.

Simpler that that is to only change your Cat Back exhaust system. That means the whole exhaust system behind the cats. They say that by just changing the cat back system you can pick up something like 10 hp while by changing headers and all something like 25 hp. Changing headers and cats can run up to $1000 to $1200 installed while the cat back system will be colse to $1000 installed. I gather that changing your cat back system does not need retuning your car. I have also heard that some guys are installing the stock system back because they are not satisfied with the aftermarket cat back systems as it ruins the sound that characterizes the GTO.

Conclussion, for you and me considering just a cat back aftermarket installation is the only bolt on, play and pulg, mod. we should consider. Kind of costly one for just a 10 hp claim at the most.

Other mods I have heard of and I am not interested in are modifying the suspension system (for a stiffer suspension for better handling in curves and stuff like that. I am not going to NASCAR with my car so that one is out) and larger disks brakes for gaining like a foot distance in performance for an over $1000.00 investment.

Other modifications are just appereance modifications, loosing weight modifications or safety modificatios like roll bars and safety cages you need to be admitted to some tracks. That you mayneed if your car is such modified like with superchargers or turbo modified (Did not mentions turbo before but there is something out there already just in case you want to rocket yourself to the moon.). Guy who really needs a roll cage don't come here for advice.

Best I can tell you is that simple bolt ons are actually limited to a CAI system from KN for close to $300 and a Cat back system for about $1000 which has brought no too much satisfaction around.

Other mods are in appereance; but, that don't add any hp unless you want to rice up your car.

That being the case I have done no modifications to my car so far. All modifications I like are expensive propositions that will generate much expense in maintenance while at the same time voiding your warranty. In any case, if I decided to spend $10.000 in modifications for my GTO I would only do such thing if and only if I was near a shpe like PFYC, Lingelfelter or some other mech shop like that.

I have taken the position to wait some to see if GM comes out with some aftermarket GM installed mods. Their weg site says that they are working on some aftermarket high performance options available at GM shops. Who knows? My car is only 1800 miles and it is only prudent to wait some more just in case something happens that needs warranty service.

I did one simple modification. I switched to synthetic Mobil 1 oil and replaced the stock oil filter with a KN oil filter. No information on how the stock oil filter stacks up to the KN, but I did it anyway.

Let's see what you guys have to say.

[BowdawG]

Wow, thats quite a post!!!
A catback will not cost $1000...
Then again sc is not bolt on at all and requires major changes in your car, after installation tuning and testing making you now dependant on a high performance mechanic shop for your needs.
Umm, the magnacharger is as bolt-on as I've seen...(it is expensive though) It comes fully assembled, you run a little plumbing for the heat exhanger, remove stock intake and drop on the assembled supercharger (with fuel system already installed too). Make a few hose, intake tube, and wire connections, reflash your computer with the included programmer and you're off with about 400rwhp.

[dozlert]

Thanks for the in-depth reply. First of all, I was considering heads, supercharger and turbos as bolt-on. I know they are not as simple as just bolting them on and that there are other considerations to be concerned with. I want reliability, driveability and enough power to easily overcome most mustang/fbody without too much difficulty. Most of the post I see now it has been close. I do not plan on hitting the track and am only looking for a quality parts/install job. I do plan on keeping my car also, so I will probably replace rather than modifying my original parts. I am leaning toward MTI or AFR heads, mid torque lunati/comp cam, long tube headers with cats, LPE intake, and a dyno tune. That should ensure I can have the reliability and driveability (depending on cam: .525+ lift, 220 to 230 duration, 112 LSA). I have patience so I can research many of these options and purchase them when they go on sale. I also plan on having these installed by a professional. It may sound like I have already made my decision...well, I haven't. Turbos/superchargers are also reliable and can offer alot. I will not go with nitrous because I will not hit the track (too much) and I am worried about the reliability.

[mistermike]

I got yer bolt-ons
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attach mentid=4252&stc=1
Mileage suffers a tad :sneaky:

[CSiJason]

The APS twin turbo system that is in the works for the LS1 GTO / Monaro makes me very happy in the pants. Not only is it a very high quality bolt-on kit, it would be easily more reliable than most other options of that caliber and add far more power than anything else without being excessive with boost, nitrous or a completely unstreetable idle (due to a big cam or such). Becides, twin ball bearing turbochargers on a V8 would sing a song like you've never heard before! And as you were burning the tires past Vipers on the highway, they would get a brief song from it also. ;)

[dozlert]

Mike...nice bolt-ons! I can tell you haven't been checking out the wheel forum! LOL. CSIJason, Will you have to change the fuel jets,fuel pump, and use lower compression heads for a twin turbo setup? That could be expensive. Powerful, but expensive.

[adearmas]

If sc, cams, heads and headers are bolt on then I would sugest to go to one of our sponsors there like Lingelfelter, Muscle Cars, so on and so forth and get installed one of their packages that will certainly juice up your car to kill any Mustang come your way and even take on a Cobra or Two around. One thing the car has is engine cpacity. It all depends on what you do with it. I guess if I had access to a well reputable high performance mechanic and some money to spread around I would modify my car to one of these packages. It would be a thrill. I have seen some clips here like PadreGTO's clips that they get something like 12.2 secs for the 1/4 mile at around 102 mi/hr.

[1BadAction]

I wanted to go heads/cam... as It is now, I will probably find a turbo shop that knows what they are doing and have a custom turbo setup built. (my design) I like the single turbos myself, the velocity of the exhaust gas from both banks of cylinders is incredible when it is directed into 1 turbine housing. im not going to say anything more about single Vs twin, Cause this thread i am sure would go on for pages. :rolleyes:

[dozlert]

[QUOTE=adearmas]If sc, cams, heads and headers are bolt on then I would sugest to go to one of our sponsors there like Lingelfelter, Muscle Cars, so on and so forth and get installed one of their packages that will certainly juice up your car to kill any Mustang come your way and even take on a Cobra or Two around. One thing the car has is engine cpacity. It all depends on what you do with it. I guess if I had access to a well reputable high performance mechanic and some money to spread around I would modify my car to one of these packages. It would be a thrill. I have seen some clips here like PadreGTO's clips that they get something like 12.2 secs for the 1/4 mile at around 102 mi/hr.[/QUOTE

I would go there as well. Unfortunately, not all of us live nearby one of these shops. We can purchase their parts and have somebody else install it.

[adearmas]

[QUOTE=adearmas]If sc, cams, heads and headers are bolt on then I would sugest to go to one of our sponsors there like Lingelfelter, Muscle Cars, so on and so forth and get installed one of their packages that will certainly juice up your car to kill any Mustang come your way and even take on a Cobra or Two around. One thing the car has is engine cpacity. It all depends on what you do with it. I guess if I had access to a well reputable high performance mechanic and some money to spread around I would modify my car to one of these packages. It would be a thrill. I have seen some clips here like PadreGTO's clips that they get something like 12.2 secs for the 1/4 mile at around 102 mi/hr.[/QUOTE

I would go there as well. Unfortunately, not all of us live nearby one of these shops. We can purchase their parts and have somebody else install it.
\
Went to a high performance mechanic shop this afternoon and said I want to install a supercharger on my car and thers's like three sc systems available on the market and I want to know if you can install them for me. Guy said right off that he needs the literature on the systems and expreessed concern for the wear on my transmission because it is automatic. He said that automatic transmission shift gears in such a way that they slip, or something to that effect, smoothly from one gear to another and if I do a modification that would add 100 or so hp to my car that the transmission needs to be modified accordingly to make it shift to withstand the added horsepower or else I put my transmission in jeopardy and that he needs to take a look at the system and its options to modify the trnsmission system for he will not asume the responsability. I cannot give a proper explanation here about all he explained to me but it seems that there are transmission concerns to be addressed as well when installing a supercharger.

I ask you know how to guys here in this forum for your reaction on the subject.

[adearmas]

Not only that he said that once the supercharger is installed my car will thrust foward forcefully while accelrating and shifting gears. he told me not to expect the same smooth driving as it is from stock. The power will show itself up and strret driving is not the same as track racing. He is excited about the GTO and says he sees much potential for the car.

[adearmas]

He told me to stay away from modifications that induce hot air in my system. He has several racing cars himself and he is a regular on the tracks. He told me that heads and cams and stuff like that will be major surgery and that if I get something I should get something trully bolt on that if I decide to remove it, it is OK, unless I trully want to commit myself to the tracks to seriously take full advantage of my investment. He said going to added power in the hundreds of hp is not exactly street wise thing to do.

He told me that my car, new to him, is practically a stock racing car and that such cars already como with optimized quality features so that doing modifications to add 10 or 15 hp is not worth it. He said he can fool my IAT and other sensors to increase hp for $50 not having to spend the extra money but that I would be fooling myself. Said, if you serious about power let's modify your car to gain over 100 hp and that other than that I would just be playing around for nothing really. That takes careful considerations and the right parts and systems.

[TEK GTO]

He told me to stay away from modifications that induce hot air in my system. He has several racing cars himself and he is a regular on the tracks. He told me that heads and cams and stuff like that will be major surgery and that if I get something I should get something trully bolt on that if I decide to remove it, it is OK, unless I trully want to commit myself to the tracks to seriously take full advantage of my investment. He said going to added power in the hundreds of hp is not exactly street wise thing to do.

He told me that my car, new to him, is practically a stock racing car and that such cars already como with optimized quality features so that doing modifications to add 10 or 15 hp is not worth it. He said he can fool my IAT and other sensors to increase hp for $50 not having to spend the extra money but that I would be fooling myself. Said, if you serious about power let's modify your car to gain over 100 hp and that other than that I would just be playing around for nothing really. That takes careful considerations and the right parts and systems.

On my C5 Vette, I only had gears, torque converter, air intake and tuning when I went 11.63@115.1. That was through stock manifolds, with cats and pre-cats. I have the slips to prove it, too. LS1s respond well to minor mods, one of the best bolt-ons for an automatic car is a torque converter as it makes the car quicker without actually increasing the engine's output. If this individual does not even know LS1Edit software don't let him near your car. GTOs are far from "stock racing cars" as he said, they're actually not that quick and mods will help quite a bit. I'd go to someone who actually knows LS series engines and has the performance to back up their claims. While I do the majority of my own install work, my local shop does all the dyno tuning for me. Check them out here www.cartek.net :cool:

[adearmas]

Sure, I am shopping around for a good mech shop. This guy is just the first I visited. I certainly will shop around before I put a 6k sc and my GTO on anybody's hand to work on it. The transmission thing sounde convincing so I would like to hear some input on the subject. I really just learning bitas and pieces here and there.

One thing seems to be clear to me by now is that if I want to beef up my GTo I will have to do something major like an sc, heads cam and stuff like that.

By the way, I just saw on another thread the new JBA dual exhaust system for the 04'GTO. I am impressed with the looks and the detail of providing an insert to conceal the cut out at the rear bumper for the additional exhaust. I am really excited about it and the proper look for my bumper once the mod is done. I think I almost convinced that ceramic coated JBA headers and exhaust is the way for me to go. The long tubes look cumbersome for a nice fit install.

[mistermike]

What city are you in / near?

[adearmas]

My GTO is overseas at The golf course resort I own a village at. No shop on the mainland is feasible. I will have to go local and import all the parts. Thanks for the help anyway.

You would cry if you knew how much a GTO goes for down here. I paid $41,000.00 minus a GM bonus of $2000.00 it came out to $39,000 and 2.99% apr from GM I put $10 k downpayment and I pay $520 a month for it. Full cover is like $1900/yr under my liability umbrella and an extended 6 yr/ 100,000 warranty extension for $2270.00.

I got a good deal since the 04's were are not selling here well. Must other people I know with GTO's paid $46,000.00 and one even paid $48,000 when they came out at 5.95% apr from GM. My neighborhood down here is mostly Mach 1's, Cobras, Q35's, Lexus coupes, Nissan 350 Z, some Crossfires and a hemorrage of BMW's and Mercedes coupes. Where I have the villa the GTO stands alone. Inside the resort it is 5mph limit, period. The highways are 65 mph. If yoou get a speeding citation it is $100 plus $10.00 the additional mile over the limit. If you get driving with.08 alcohol it is jailtime or rehab school the first ime around and $500.00 fine. Second time it is $1000.00, driver license suspension for a whole year and 1 month in the can. Third time you get driving with alcohol in your blood it is $5000 fine, permanent driver permit suspension, 1 year in the can no parole and your car is confiscated. You get into a fatal accident with alcohol in your bloodstream it is 15 years, no parole. You get driving with alcohol in the blodstream with kids in your car you go pass go and directly to the can for one year no parole. Officer decides which alcohol test you have to take and if you say no it is admission of guilt and to the can no parole. LOL, Needless to say I am looking for a radar jammer that works.

[mistermike]

Well, if you're considering something like a supercharger, then get it from a reputable outfit. Magnuson, Vortech, and ATI will supply a programmer to set the car up to use their product. While perhaps not perfectly ideal, it's far preferrable to turning the car over to an inexperienced hack who doesn't understand the product. If I were isolated from LS1 experienced tuners, I would get a copy of LS1Edit, HPTuner, or the forthcoming EFILive and spend a great deal of time studying and consulting others on its proper and safe use.

[vet652000]

Thanks for the in-depth reply. First of all, I was considering heads, supercharger and turbos as bolt-on. I know they are not as simple as just bolting them on and that there are other considerations to be concerned with. I want reliability, driveability and enough power to easily overcome most mustang/fbody without too much difficulty. Most of the post I see now it has been close. I do not plan on hitting the track and am only looking for a quality parts/install job. I do plan on keeping my car also, so I will probably replace rather than modifying my original parts. I am leaning toward MTI or AFR heads, mid torque lunati/comp cam, long tube headers with cats, LPE intake, and a dyno tune. That should ensure I can have the reliability and driveability (depending on cam: .525+ lift, 220 to 230 duration, 112 LSA). I have patience so I can research many of these options and purchase them when they go on sale. I also plan on having these installed by a professional. It may sound like I have already made my decision...well, I haven't. Turbos/superchargers are also reliable and can offer alot. I will not go with nitrous because I will not hit the track (too much) and I am worried about the reliability.

i have had both C5's and now the GTO, and have watched many guys mod their vettes and at the end of the day, except for those who use the car as only a weekend toy and who race religously, the only ones who were really happy with their mods were the guys who spent the money to do a supercharger with a good tune. the beauty of a SC is that when you are driving it back and forth to work and going on errands or taking the wife out to dinner, it runs just like a stocker, same gas mileage,same drivability. the SC's even do a great job with stock exhaust and intake, so if you like the GTO sound you can keep it. the guys who did the heads,cam,headers,intake,exhaust,custom tune, while making similiar mumbers or even better numbers than SC car, lost the gas mileage and the smooth running that the stocker had. in addition they lost the warranty as well. at least with the "maggie" SC you can get a drivetrain warranty for $200, plus it's one of the sweetest looking mods when you pop the hood. so for me its a SC or nothing as far as mods go. i'd rather spend my $2000 on nice wheels and tires ,than on a CAI, exhaust and programmer. and before i'd add headers and cats, i'd add the 2005 oem hood with scoops. just my 2 cents worth, but it seems to make the most sense to me for anyone using there GTO as an everyday driver.

[dozlert]

That was a very good response for the maggie! Thank you. Driveability is a major consideration.

[Dbluegoat]

That was a very good response for the maggie! Thank you. Driveability is a major consideration.
I gotta agree with vet652000 the maggie is not going to be the greatest thing if you want to be a track warrior. The daily driver street use is excellent. It is like a jekyll and hyde. If you want to play its available and sounds great! If you want to remain docile you can, almost feels like stock when your driving like an old lady.

[adearmas]

The issue I want to address is the super charger to automatic transmission rekationship. Wheteher adding so much power with a sc requires special modifications or adjustments to accomodate the AUTOMATI¡C transmission to function properly and safely under the effects of so much additional power. Apparently, I am told, it is not as simple as bolting on the s/c to the car plug and play like. Seems like the AUTOMATIC transmission is designed to shift gears according to original design of what I will call "power to shift mode" ratio (I am not a mechanic so I just made up my own term. You guys will know the right stuff). High performance mechanic there told me that since my GTO has an automatic transmission doing a bolt on is not as simple as doing it to a manual transmission due to the way automatics slip from one gear to another (he used some term I do not remember). Adding 100 hp or so to the car could be exccesive for the automatic transmission and not necessarily for the manual. He wanted to see the manuals on whatever s/c I wanted to modify my car with to help me decide if I should do the mod. and which sc system to get. He said that if I put a s/c on an automatic transmission without addressing this issue properly I could very well ruin my transmisssion in the long run.

This guy has some impressive cars there and some of the best cars at the track. Seems like he knows what he is saying. I can only reley to you as much as I understood.

[mistermike]

Modern GM automatics use "torque management" to pull timing during the shift points, lessening stress on the trans. This partially offsets the other grim tradition of overlapping the clutches to "smooth" the transition. Traditional shift kits reduce or eliminate this overlap, dramatically cutting wear on the clutches/bands at the expense of a more abrupt shift. I'm not enough of an expert on electronically controlled transmissions to say if this can be accomplished in the computer or not. However, increasing line pressure to get a harder shift is generally considered to be a bad idea. Most hot rodders defeat or reduce torque management to get more power, but if you were looking to "baby" the trans, I would leave it in. The point I was trying to make earlier, is that although your guy might be a wonderful, experienced mechanic, if he's not intimately familiar with LS1's and GM PCM programming, he's not the best person to be working on your GTO.

[vet652000]

The issue I want to address is the super charger to automatic transmission rekationship. Wheteher adding so much power with a sc requires special modifications or adjustments to accomodate the AUTOMATI¡C transmission to function properly and safely under the effects of so much additional power. Apparently, I am told, it is not as simple as bolting on the s/c to the car plug and play like. Seems like the AUTOMATIC transmission is designed to shift gears according to original design of what I will call "power to shift mode" ratio (I am not a mechanic so I just made up my own term. You guys will know the right stuff). High performance mechanic there told me that since my GTO has an automatic transmission doing a bolt on is not as simple as doing it to a manual transmission due to the way automatics slip from one gear to another (he used some term I do not remember). Adding 100 hp or so to the car could be exccesive for the automatic transmission and not necessarily for the manual. He wanted to see the manuals on whatever s/c I wanted to modify my car with to help me decide if I should do the mod. and which sc system to get. He said that if I put a s/c on an automatic transmission without addressing this issue properly I could very well ruin my transmisssion in the long run.

This guy has some impressive cars there and some of the best cars at the track. Seems like he knows what he is saying. I can only reley to you as much as I understood.


i thimk one thing you have to remember when it comes to your automatic is that the durability of the trans is directly in relation to the amount of abuse/non-abuse you subject it to. if you going to flog the heck out of it, you'll need a competition rebuild to really beef it up to handle the power. if you are going to "get into it" occaisionally, and maybe go to the track 4 or 5 times a year then there is no reason to fear the trans going south on you. as some has said you can tune some of the "softness" out of the automatic, which helps with the slippage at shift point. i believe,at least it was with the C5, that the "maggie" drivetrain warranty includes the automatic tranny. anytime you play with the stock setup you risk some reliability, but your driving style and habits will play a major role in how your equipment lasts. there are some people that will trash the auto trans with the car completely stock-does this mean the trans is junk or weak? no! it means some people abuse things. the same can be said of clutches, axles, output shafts, etc. If you want to abuse things enough they'll break. quit worrying about your trans, find a certified ASE mechanic, order up a "maggie" , buy your $200 warranty, and show your neighbors what a true powerhouse your GTO is! they'll all be drooling,especially when you pop the hood and they see that eye candy.

[kick_*ss]

HOLEY LOTS OF READING BATMAN!!!!

Well I can tell you between the SS Cam'ed and GTO S/C -
Cam - power all the time, any speed
S/C - at least the m/c version has the power but just does not feel like its at my fingertips like the cam does.
Cam - hard to hide since it makes my car dance a bit at idle/lights
S/C - very calm idle - easy to sucker someone
Cam - very very loud with lth and good cat back
S/C - its makes it own tone :D

I raced a little against my buddy driving who was driving my SS home and I had the GTO. I launched easily since the GTO is A4 and had him for about 50 feet. After that he just reeled me in and kept going past me.

Hopefully no rain this week and get some freaking track time in.

[vet652000]

HOLEY LOTS OF READING BATMAN!!!!

Well I can tell you between the SS Cam'ed and GTO S/C -
Cam - power all the time, any speed
S/C - at least the m/c version has the power but just does not feel like its at my fingertips like the cam does.
Cam - hard to hide since it makes my car dance a bit at idle/lights
S/C - very calm idle - easy to sucker someone
Cam - very very loud with lth and good cat back
S/C - its makes it own tone :D

I raced a little against my buddy driving who was driving my SS home and I had the GTO. I launched easily since the GTO is A4 and had him for about 50 feet. After that he just reeled me in and kept going past me.

Hopefully no rain this week and get some freaking track time in.

what your saying here is true for the most part- a heads/cam LS1 can definately make great power with a nice curve, however there is a trade off in idle quality, some drivability issues, fuel economy, and as you stated stealth factor. i believe a SC fits for the guy who wants his daily driver to perform like a race car with the drivabilty of a stocker. it just makes an excellent and hard to beat combo for the street. the power is there if you need/want it, but when you don't its like you never turned a wrench.

[lionsden]

i have had both C5's and now the GTO, and have watched many guys mod their vettes and at the end of the day, except for those who use the car as only a weekend toy and who race religously, the only ones who were really happy with their mods were the guys who spent the money to do a supercharger with a good tune. the beauty of a SC is that when you are driving it back and forth to work and going on errands or taking the wife out to dinner, it runs just like a stocker, same gas mileage,same drivability. the SC's even do a great job with stock exhaust and intake, so if you like the GTO sound you can keep it. the guys who did the heads,cam,headers,intake,exhaust,custom tune, while making similiar mumbers or even better numbers than SC car, lost the gas mileage and the smooth running that the stocker had. in addition they lost the warranty as well. at least with the "maggie" SC you can get a drivetrain warranty for $200, plus it's one of the sweetest looking mods when you pop the hood. so for me its a SC or nothing as far as mods go. i'd rather spend my $2000 on nice wheels and tires ,than on a CAI, exhaust and programmer. and before i'd add headers and cats, i'd add the 2005 oem hood with scoops. just my 2 cents worth, but it seems to make the most sense to me for anyone using there GTO as an everyday driver.

Thanks For the Post!! I agree with you completely thats exactly what I'm looking for in my car. Thanks again!

[adearmas]

Was at the track today for the American GT Grand Prix circuit. I never been to a track before in my life! As I have said on previous threads, I woke up one morning after a night of several Sam Adam's over the line only to find out this black thing with a side badge that said GTO 5.7 litre on my driveway. This is all new to me. It was a great first time at the tracks experience for me. Them cars look nothing like a regular car inside.

I tell you there were different categories of cars there. All the high end cars were Jaguars, Corvettes, one Mustang, several other chev. and the like. They all had a big round airfilter placed high at the rear of the engines and next to a large opening at the rear end of the hood. They also had like vents on the sides of the hoods. The whole thing under the body is nothing like a regular car. Engines and systems of all kinds as well as the brakes look nothing like a regular car. As the sun went down you could see the brake systems glowing red. Some of them cars spat fire from their exhaust systems at times. The competition was fierce.

At lower categories there were cars that look like regular under the hood but obviously modified. It was a Corvette win but not without a fierce fight from them little Subaru Imprezza or sti turbo things. Actally the first time around was a big win for one of the Subaru cars over the Corvette but the Subaru lost the race because he was told he had already won the race (Think it goes by time or something like that), there was some confussion and he got aout of the track too soon and lost by a technicality.

Other little things that fly as well are SRT 4's Neons and Evolutions. But I tell you all them Subaru turbo things kick ass over all the Corvettes, Camaros and all other cars except for the Corvette that won both races.

Lesson #1 for me today is them Subaru turbo things may look small next to my GTO but, I don't know guys, looks to me they kick ass. Watch out!

I was sitting there minding my own businnes and all of the sudden I hear over the lodspeaker for me to go to the VIP area. How did they know my name and why me? Turns out they have a VIP area up high right behind the starting point from where you can see the whole stretch before the first curve. Great place to be. There they have like a large long balcony with these individual private lounges companies rent for the whole year. Turns out I was spotted at a distance by one of my patients who owns a construction and steel works company and he actually built all the structures there and I was invited to his lounge area. It is a whole different ballgame up there. Them lounges have private bars, restrooms, a/c, kitchenettes, the works. Now whenever I go to the track I have an open invitation to go to his lounge. Nice gesture.

Small world it is. I had my GTO cap and shirt on and needless to say in the conversation comes that I recently purchased my GTO and I considering mods for it. I asked if they could recommend a high performance mechanic for my car. Logical question at the VIP area at the tracks. Guess what, lounge next door happens to be the GM lounge. I was introduced to the GM Service manager who told me GM could modify my car and keep warranty intact. The conversation was quick and I did not make too many questions; but, everything I have learned here helped me not to look and sound like a dodo bird. This is what I understand he said: they can change heads (sounded like the whole top part of the engine) and cams for some other LS# (maybe he said LS6 I am not sure), flowmeter, do something or other to the thermostat, KN drop in filter, and I think he said headers and exhaust system could be done as well. Well, something like that. I WILL GET IN CONTACT WITH HIM AND POST THE SPECIFICS. In the meantime I would appreciate any comments from you on this matter so that when I talk to him I understand him better and not sound like a fool.

Who knows I may even learn how to drag race myself! I liked the grand prix type of racing. Thursday night I'm going to the track again to watch the drag races.

[dozlert]

Man, lucky bastard! It seems you were in the right place at the right time! I would look at the poll here http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1231 42#post123142 ans see what the forum readers recommend. Like I said, you are in a lucky position right now. You have found a good GM shop who will do mods and warranty the work (and they have real seats at the races). Good luck whichever way you decide to go and post pics of your mods!

[TEK GTO]

i have had both C5's and now the GTO, and have watched many guys mod their vettes and at the end of the day, except for those who use the car as only a weekend toy and who race religously, the only ones who were really happy with their mods were the guys who spent the money to do a supercharger with a good tune.

Hmmm, my bolt-on daily driven Vette handed out a serious a** whooping on a bunch of S/C Vettes, all they did was accuse me of having a hidden shot and other complaining. I even offered to bet them 1k that there was no nitrous, stock heads and stock cam, but they declined because they knew they were wrong and had some serious sour grapes after getting owned by a bolt-on car. If your tuner knows what they are doing you don't have driveability issues, gas mileage issues, and other things you mention. BrentEB02 on this forum has a street driven Z06 that ran 10s all day long and was driven to out of state events(furthest was Bradenton FL). He got fuel mileage in the high twenties on that trip. The only tuners that I have seen put together a serious SC car are MDMC and Cartek. There may be others, but I have seen those 2 get some serious machines together and run them at the track. The Magnuson is such low boost that I wouldn't waste my time. They have great dyno numbers but I have yet to see one lay down any good track times. I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flak from the dyno racers here, but until they show me some timeslips I won't be convinced. Even some C5 or F-body track numbers, where are they? The Procharger guys have run the number, but I don't see any Magnuson equipped cars out there with great track times. Like I've said in the past, I never saw 2 dynos pull into the staging lanes at the track. In case you're wondering, I only laid down 334 RWHP/338 RWTQ on the dyno when I ran my 11.6@115, so I guess dyno numbers aren't everything. Dynos can be manipulated, and quite often they are. A car that is tuned properly may not have the highest dyno number, but real world results are what really count. There are many heads/cam, stroker, and nitrous LS1/LS6 cars out there running great on the tracks, but only a few supercharged cars that can produce the same results. If you have the proof otherwise, show us. I'd really like to see it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[stonebreaker]

The issue I want to address is the super charger to automatic transmission rekationship. Wheteher adding so much power with a sc requires special modifications or adjustments to accomodate the AUTOMATI¡C transmission to function properly and safely under the effects of so much additional power. Apparently, I am told, it is not as simple as bolting on the s/c to the car plug and play like. Seems like the AUTOMATIC transmission is designed to shift gears according to original design of what I will call "power to shift mode" ratio (I am not a mechanic so I just made up my own term. You guys will know the right stuff). High performance mechanic there told me that since my GTO has an automatic transmission doing a bolt on is not as simple as doing it to a manual transmission due to the way automatics slip from one gear to another (he used some term I do not remember). Adding 100 hp or so to the car could be exccesive for the automatic transmission and not necessarily for the manual. He wanted to see the manuals on whatever s/c I wanted to modify my car with to help me decide if I should do the mod. and which sc system to get. He said that if I put a s/c on an automatic transmission without addressing this issue properly I could very well ruin my transmisssion in the long run.

This guy has some impressive cars there and some of the best cars at the track. Seems like he knows what he is saying. I can only reley to you as much as I understood.

Your guy sounds to me like he knows what he's talking about. Modern engines and transmissions, particularly the trannies, aren't THAT different from the old ones. My current transmission has been in the car for three years and has survived over a thousand passes down the drag strip. I run ported heads and a cam, in addition to a 150 shot of nitrous. My car, with me in it, weighs 4400 lbs. I went through seven trannies before I found the right combination of parts and skill. I have DEALT with transmission issues before! :)

The key to a reliable automatic transmission is precision. Ten guys can build identical trannies with identical parts, and the one that lasts the longest is the one put together with the tightest tolerances. Your guys expressed all the right concerns about your transmission longevity, I'd say he knows what he's doing. He may not know every little LSx-specific trick, but then again my guy was a circle track racer who ran a transmission shop to pay for his racing habit. Guys with motivation like that will do a better job 99% of the time over guys who are just in it for the money.

Ask him if he will give you any kind of warranty with his tranny build. Even if he won't because of the supercharger, his response will help you better gauge his abilities.

Oh yeah, as far as the harder shifts with a shoft kit, you can tone that down a lot with a high stall torque converter (and make your car faster at the same time). But you won't be chirping the 1-2 shift if you do....

[kick_*ss]

what your saying here is true for the most part- a heads/cam LS1 can definately make great power with a nice curve, however there is a trade off in idle quality, some drivability issues, fuel economy, and as you stated stealth factor. i believe a SC fits for the guy who wants his daily driver to perform like a race car with the drivabilty of a stocker. it just makes an excellent and hard to beat combo for the street. the power is there if you need/want it, but when you don't its like you never turned a wrench.

I have seen a lot of people say the IDLE is a bugger with a CAM and I know that my buddy and I put in the same tr224/112 cam the same weekend. His TA ran like crap, my SS ran beautiful from day one. The only time its run crappy is after following the ( here is what to do with a cam tune ) on the other forums. I abandoned those tunes and did it myself and it runs great at idle, no misfire warnings, dances just a bit and lots of power. ( see sig )

Just some of these ls1's like cams some don't.

As for ease, I would have to agree, the s/c route is much easier. Which is why I went this way for my wifes car. I wanted easy power and not have to play much to get it to have good power.

[vet652000]

Hmmm, my bolt-on daily driven Vette handed out a serious a** whooping on a bunch of S/C Vettes, all they did was accuse me of having a hidden shot and other complaining. I even offered to bet them 1k that there was no nitrous, stock heads and stock cam, but they declined because they knew they were wrong and had some serious sour grapes after getting owned by a bolt-on car. If your tuner knows what they are doing you don't have driveability issues, gas mileage issues, and other things you mention. BrentEB02 on this forum has a street driven Z06 that ran 10s all day long and was driven to out of state events(furthest was Bradenton FL). He got fuel mileage in the high twenties on that trip. The only tuners that I have seen put together a serious SC car are MDMC and Cartek. There may be others, but I have seen those 2 get some serious machines together and run them at the track. The Magnuson is such low boost that I wouldn't waste my time. They have great dyno numbers but I have yet to see one lay down any good track times. I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flak from the dyno racers here, but until they show me some timeslips I won't be convinced. Even some C5 or F-body track numbers, where are they? The Procharger guys have run the number, but I don't see any Magnuson equipped cars out there with great track times. Like I've said in the past, I never saw 2 dynos pull into the staging lanes at the track. In case you're wondering, I only laid down 334 RWHP/338 RWTQ on the dyno when I ran my 11.6@115, so I guess dyno numbers aren't everything. Dynos can be manipulated, and quite often they are. A car that is tuned properly may not have the highest dyno number, but real world results are what really count. There are many heads/cam, stroker, and nitrous LS1/LS6 cars out there running great on the tracks, but only a few supercharged cars that can produce the same results. If you have the proof otherwise, show us. I'd really like to see it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

i agree that for the track you can run great times with bolt ons/head,cams. my point was for the guys who use their car as a daily driver and want some extra punch without changing the way the car runs when they don't want/need the power then the s/c is the way to go. for the seat of the pants torque at lower rpms, you just can't beat a s/c. it really is a question of how you use your car and what you want it to do. i'm not going to go to the track more than once a year max. i just want some good old lowend torque for fun on the street here and there, not worried about what my times are in the quarter. no different than choosing cams-totally different cam for numbers on the track versus low end torque for the street. if you want to compare a sc setup for the track and a bolton setup for the track, the sc setup will win hands down everytime, but what you are comparing is street sc setup with a bolton setup for the track, or a poorly tuned sc setup with a properly tuned bolt on. what i said was the only guys who were "happy" with their outcome, not the only guys who had great "timeslips". the manufacturers that have sc setups for the gto are all basically intended for street use and therefore have lots of compromises. if you went to them and said build me a setup for the track first and ocasional street use second, they would blow the doors off a bolton/head/cam car. i'm not trying to start anything, just trying to help guys decide whats best for them and their driving style for THEIR intended use. after all the only person i'm trying to impress is me, because its my car and my money i'm spending and if i'm happy with the outcome thats all that matters, decide what it is you want out of YOUR car and what will make YOU happy and then the decision is easy. whats best for one guy may be the worst senario for the next, thats why there are all these choices out there. its also why the best tuners out there are the ones who take the time to talk to their customer and find out what the customer wants out of his car first and then advises accordingly. just my 2 cents.
just curious, how was BrentEB02's fuel mileage for around town driving compared to a stock car? was he also able to maintain the same fuel economy their? i never had a Z06, but my C5's did over 30mpg on the highway. these are questions that are important to some people who want to mod their car and still need it as a daily driver.

[Scott]

I got an idea. Save your money and keep you warranty in tac. and buy a 05 with 400 hp (with no mods) and a full factory warranty. That's what I plan on doing. Should be able to get a good deal on one in late 05.(I work for a dealer) Gm spends alot of time working on these cars to get them to work correctly. I'm not going to screw mine up and waste a lot of money on 10 to 20hp gains. You know what they say about a fool and his money. I like mine just the way it is. And was ment to be. Oh by the way mine is not stock I painted my calipers red I hear it's good for about 50 to 60hp:banghead:

[1BadAction]

I got an idea. Save your money and keep you warranty in tac. and buy a 05 with 400 hp (with no mods) and a full factory warranty. That's what I plan on doing. Should be able to get a good deal on one in late 05.(I work for a dealer) Gm spends alot of time working on these cars to get them to work correctly. I'm not going to screw mine up and waste a lot of money on 10 to 20hp gains. You know what they say about a fool and his money. I like mine just the way it is. And was ment to be. Oh by the way mine is not stock I painted my calipers red I hear it's good for about 50 to 60hp:banghead:

:rolleyes: yeah, an 05 is going to run with a boosted car, or a heads/cam car... what a joke you are. GM spends alot of time trying to make the epa/liberal/hippy/tree huggers happy, and much less to get more HP out of a car. if all they wanted is more HP we would still have big blocks as an option. :-punch:

[SilverStreakGTO]

But along with a supercharger could you also add the other things like headers, exhaust, cam or rockers if you dind't wan't to go internal. I know that they have blower cams out there and finish that off with a nice set of heads. I myself along with other members on this board seems to have owned a GTP before the GTO. Abviously those guys are doing something right... unlocking power with a s/c seems almost endless. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Scott]

:rolleyes: yeah, an 05 is going to run with a boosted car, or a heads/cam car... what a joke you are. GM spends alot of time trying to make the epa/liberal/hippy/tree huggers happy, and much less to get more HP out of a car. if all they wanted is more HP we would still have big blocks as an option. :-punch:
I'm talking about bang for you dollar. If any car came into our service drive with a blower on his car or AM heads or cam for warranty work,we would laugh him out of the drive. :gr_jest: Not to mention the shorten engine life. GM has to operate within EPA standards set by the feds It's not a matter of choice. I'm sure they would love to put a big blocks in all of their cars. I would say that a 05 will run in the mid 12's with the right driver behind the wheel. Don't forget about the fool and his money. :drink:

[ghostridder]

The power adders will haev more torque hands down, however there is alot more than just peak HP and TQ. Its dependability, driveability, COST.....

That's true Matt. Although I'd say for dependability and driveability you probably would go with, (just for starters) mass air unit,throttle body and a custom chip. OH YEAH! can't forget the induction tube.Mandrel bent of course. Simple mods with big gains for cheap.

[dozlert]

Turbo wasn't the chosen power adder by most, but I saw a TT C6 at the track that smoked nearly all the cars. It was just awesome. I wonder what the 05/06 owners think...sorry for reviving an old post to attract new opinions. :)

[TrakDay]

Turbo wasn't the chosen power adder by most, but I saw a TT C6 at the track that smoked nearly all the cars. It was just awesome. I wonder what the 05/06 owners think...sorry for reviving an old post to attract new opinions. :)
Holy crap... talk about back from the dead!

[dozlert]

Holy crap... talk about back from the dead!


I have read, read and then read some more! I have seen the reviews of the maggie, pro charger, every cam in the book and head packages. Many of the folks have had time to test them (04-06) so I thought there might be a change. I am interested.:wall: