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How competitve can I expect to be ?

7K views 37 replies 11 participants last post by  blackbob 
#1 ·
Seeing how drag racing is non-existant where I am,I'm curious to know how well on the road course the car can be. There is a road course every 5 seconds where I am and they have track days pretty much year round. So right now, aside from bolt on power mods I'm trying to improve the suspension as much as I can afford to. I have Peddlers "0" drop rear on now with OE replacement shocks ( I know,I know,I'll upgrade as funding allows). I will be ordering Peddlers 20mm front drop springs next week or the week after along with new shocks. Tax time should net me BMR sways,steal braided lines,White line shock tower bushings with bearings,BMR inner and outer radius rod bushings, and EBC red pads.

The car came with the factory tower strut bar already. However,I'm not sure how good it is compared to aftermarket or if it even matters. I'm still deciding on wheels and looking at ENKEI PF01's or RP03's with a matching tire. Given my plans and some minor adjustments,how competative can I expect to be out here running against M3's,Proches,and well....Ferrari's.
 
#2 ·
Depends on how good of a driver you are! I've been to a few HPDE days over here at MSR, and ran a bunch of different cars. Constantly lapped z06's and a Viper, yet got my ass handed to me by quite a few Miata's. Was consistently getting passed by a 370z, until the kid decided to turn all of the electronic nannys off. Then he was spinning off course. Sticky tires are your friend! Our cars are heavy with a lot of body roll. First things I'd recommend getting a set of track rotors and pads. Also braided brake lines. Easily best mods I've done so far.

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#3 ·
Thanks ! I'm not bad,bit I'll have lots of oppurtunity to get better while I'm hete. I do plan to upgrade brakes again along with controlling the roll. I aspire to rape as many Ferraris and Lambo's as my budget will allow. I know power isn't big thing on a roadcpurse,but I have to ask do our cars hurt any in that department?
 
#15 ·
I aspire to rape as many Ferraris and Lambo's as my budget will allow.
The only way you're going to rape Ferraris and Lambos is by driver skill. You could dump $10k into your car, and with equal skill drivers, the Ferrari and Lambo will still run circles around the GTO.

I know power isn't big thing on a roadcpurse,but I have to ask do our cars hurt any in that department?
No, our cars definitely do not hurt in that department. I haven't spent a single dime with the intent of making more HP as I built my GTO up to be a reliable trackable car.

For striaght line power, I have Kook's LT's lined up with offroad mid pipe and SLP cat back. I'm also shooting for a ported intake and a OTR or SVEDE in the near future with a tune. I know it wont make the car a rocket,but I do want nice crisp thottle with a slightly fatter mid range.
What you have is significant overkill for someone learning road course driving

When I went to Limotala,I quickly realized I coulda "sudo-drift" the car to help get it around the corner. My tires and front suspension was not up to the task. This is why I am addressing everything now.
You shouldn't be sliding at all ... if you are, you're losing time. This isn't a limitation of the car, but is a sign of you being new to driving on a road course. Best way to fix this is a coaching session from a quality coach (good ones around here run $1000/day).

Realistically,would I have to ever worry about the car being a limiting factor ?
Not for several years to come

As for power,did you ever feel like your GTO needed more ?
Absolutely, positively NO! ;) Adding more power is a cardinal sin for someone who wants to be a good driver.

I ask because I feel my stock LS2 is a FANTASTIC engine as it sits from factory,the only thing I aim to do is fine tune it where it is as efficient as possible. I've made a plan for just that and I'm slowing getting all the parts together to make it so.
Spend your money elsewhere if your goal is to be a fast track driver. More power will only hurt your driving skill development, not help it.

I do get a dyno tune every year, but it's not to squeeze every HP out of the motor. Me and my tuner look at the logs and make changes to ensure the mixture is safe, timing curve is safe, knock counts are safe, there's no pinging, etc ... See a pattern? I want to be sure my motor is going to last the season rather than see how high I can make the peak numbers go. Driving on a road course for 20 min sessions is not easy on the car.

Did you upgrade your brake lines yet ? If no,why not ?
Yes, I upgraded to braided lines when I did the initial prep for my 1st track event (upgraded lines, high temp brake fluid, new rotors, and race pads).

I already have a dual pod to put in the center of the dash and a mechanical oil pressure gauge ( sunpro brand ). However, I want to get an electronic one and throw a water temp next to it.
You already have a water temp gauge. Oil pressure and oil temp are the important things to watch on track. I have an Aeroforce gauge and have the annunciator setup to throw a warning light at me if the oil pressure drops below 25psi, or if the oil temp climbs above 290*F.

Right now I have stock 17's on the car and I want to upgrade to 18's
Again, depends on your goal. $1000 for rims can certainly buy a lot of track time ... and guess which one will make you faster on the road course? ;)
 
#5 ·
I agree with the above. The car won't be the limiting factor in lap times for quite a while. The straights are never a problem versus other cars. It's the need to brake earlier due to all the extra lard that goats have. I also couldn't seem to keep enough speed in turns because my nt555's weren't sticky enough. On shorter courses or lots of tight turns the extra hp is welcome to really help steer with your right foot.

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#7 ·
I agree with the above. The car won't be the limiting factor in lap times for quite a while. The straights are never a problem versus other cars. It's the need to brake earlier due to all the extra lard that goats have. I also couldn't seem to keep enough speed in turns because my nt555's weren't sticky enough. On shorter courses or lots of tight turns the extra hp is welcome to really help steer with your right foot.Sent from my GT-N8013 using AutoGuide.Com Free App
Thanks Cavell ! I'm starting to see a lot of that as I go to more and more track events. These guys take track racing very seriously out here as everything is track inspired down to the Fiat ! For striaght line power, I have Kook's LT's lined up with offroad mid pipe and SLP cat back. I'm also shooting for a ported intake and a OTR or SVEDE in the near future with a tune. I know it wont make the car a rocket,but I do want nice crisp thottle with a slightly fatter mid range. When I went to Limotala,I quickly realized I coulda "sudo-drift" the car to help get it around the corner. My tires and front suspension was not up to the task. This is why I am addressing everything now. Realistically,would I have to ever worry about the car being a limiting factor ?


BMR doesn't make sway bars for our cars. If you are worried about being competitive now then you will be very disappointed. Seat time will be the best mod you can do for your car.
I get that,what I was reffering to is general GTO specific road course issue I should be aware of.

Depends on how good of a driver you are! I've been to a few HPDE days over here at MSR, and ran a bunch of different cars. Constantly lapped z06's and a Viper, yet got my ass handed to me by quite a few Miata's. Was consistently getting passed by a 370z, until the kid decided to turn all of the electronic nannys off. Then he was spinning off course. Sticky tires are your friend! Our cars are heavy with a lot of body roll. First things I'd recommend getting a set of track rotors and pads. Also braided brake lines. Easily best mods I've done so far.
Sent from my GT-N8013 using AutoGuide.Com Free App
I have DBA rotors on it now and I was planning on getting some race pads with steal braided lines. Will this due, or do I need heavier stuff ?
 
#8 ·
I've got a set of OEM rotors and EBC Yellowstuff pads for track duty. Those, combined with the brand new feel of the braided stainless lines seems to be enough for me. Although I don't have any experience with any big brake kits. Sure there are other guys who have installed them to compare stopping power against stock calipers, rotors, etc..

The limiting factors of GTO's are momentum and intertia :) No matter what mods you install on your car, you're still driving a ~3800 lbs car with you in it.
 
#9 ·
Thanks,all input is welcomed ! I have DBA rotors on there now and I was going to throw on higher performance pads and steal braided lines. I'll see how that combination works out and goes from there.
 
#10 ·
If you have drilled and slotted rotors, get rid of them and go with slotted only. Good race pads and if you can, get air ducts installed to help cool your brakes.
 
#14 ·
No I have the DBA rotors with just slots,I believe Maryland speed ran a special on them with Hawk pads. I figured they should more than suffice for what I need.


Good info from these guys so far.

Biggest limiting factors for the GTO are the stock brakes, front end geometry, and limited tire size.

For the brakes, stock up on the cheapest rotors you can find (I found some for $8 each and bought a dozen of them), a set of track duty pads (Carbotech XP10, EBC blues, etc ...), and get some good fluid into the lines (I use Wilwood EXP 600).

Rotors are consumable items when you track this car, so DBAs are not the way to go unless you're ok with spending that much cash every couple of events.

Keep the DBA rotors and EBC red pads for street duty, and swap them out for track events.

For the front end geometry and tire size, you're pretty much limited to .5 -.75 degrees of negative camber with the stock configuration and 245/45/17 tires (are you on 17 or 18s?). To get more camber, you'll need different rims with a better offset, or some wheel spacers.

I've been tracking my GTO for almost 3 years now, and go to 5 or so events a year. Each event is 2 days, with four 20 minute sessions per day. I've run the EBC yellows, Blues and Oranges, and liked the blues the best. My next event is this weekend, and I'm going with Carbotech XP10 pads this time.

After you have a few events under your belt, and the tires start limiting your times, move up to a comp-R tire (I run Nitto NT01s).

Believe it or not, the stock suspension on these cars is very good on the track. It's predictable and easy to control, especially for someone who is learning. The biggest draw back from the suspension is the understeer. To dial it out, you can swap the rear sway bar only, and leave the stock front bar in place.

My car right now has stock springs, Monroe Sensatrac replacement dampers, SLP rear sway bar, all poly bushings and 6mm spacers up front. I'm able to get neg 2* camber up front now, and that combined with the SLP rear bar, completely eliminated the understeer. The car feels fantastic now, although I'm not sure how well I would have done 3 years ago if the car was setup this way.

The understeer is safe, and will keep you on the track when you enter a corner too fast. You'll turn, and the slip angle will be huge, causing you to scrub lots of speed ... eventually you'll end up taking the corner wide, but remain on trackl. The same situation in an oversteer car, can easily cause you to spin before you realize it.

Another thing to watch for is oil pressure ... the front sump design can be problematic with high lateral G forces. Get a good gauge and look at it each lap in a safe spot (long straight). Also put an extra quart of oil in before an event to help control the oil starvation risk.

Good luck!

Oh, and I forgot to mention: Sliding is slow ... if your drifting, or spinning tires, or sliding, you're losing time. This is not a bad thing if you're wheel-to-wheel and trying to prevent someone from passing, but in time trial (or HPDE), it's just going to eat into your time. Watch a small, light, low HP car go around the track. That's called a "momentum car", and a good driver will squeeze every thou of a second out of it by using minimal braking and setting the car up to be on the gas as soon as possible mid-corner. If you come flying into a corner with all your Horses pumping, and can't slow down enough, it will feel fast as you slide through the corner, but reality is you can't get on the gas until you have control again and are setup to ride the angle out to the exit berm. The guy in the momentum car will come in casually, brake a little bit, and glide through the corner, getting setup to be on the gas just before the apex, and blow by you on corner exit; and because of this, his momentum will most likely prevent you from catching him on the straight even though you could have 200+ HP advantage on him.

The sayings "Smooth is Fast" and "Slow in, fast out" are absolutely true!

Thanks man, and a lot of this I kinda put together when I tracked the car the last time. I was looking for insite just like what you gave to help me from spending money in the wrong places and guide me to the right ones. I was debating on getting a front and rear sway,but it's nice to know a rear is all I need to get the steering back I want. As for the brakes,I'll order some cheapo replacements as soon as I come across some.

I know I will need these before I head to the bigger tracks like Mugello and Misano later this summer. As for power,did you ever feel like your GTO needed more ? I ask because I feel my stock LS2 is a FANTASTIC engine as it sits from factory,the only thing I aim to do is fine tune it where it is as efficient as possible. I've made a plan for just that and I'm slowing getting all the parts together to make it so. Did you upgrade your brake lines yet ? If no,why not ?

I already have a dual pod to put in the center of the dash and a mechanical oil pressure gauge ( sunpro brand ). However, I want to get an electronic one and throw a water temp next to it.

Right now I have stock 17's on the car and I want to upgrade to 18's,but there are a few things holding me back. I'm in italy and there are pot holes gallore along with just shitting all around roads. I want a more secure feel when corning,but I don't want to risk a nice wheel to do it. I have two bend wheels so I need to do something soon,it's just a matter of what option is best for me.


With coilovers up front, wheel studs and spacers (or lower offset wheels) you should be able to fit 265-275 tires to match the rears and have a square setup.

I was thinking of doing this with the BC's front only,but I wasn't sure how it would match my Peddlers rear spring.


Right, it's a matter of spending the $$ for the parts needed to gain the clearance, then deciding if you want more tire size or more neg camber.

The bottom line is tire size and neg camber capability are both a weakness of this car for road course duty. There are ways to cure them, but it will certainly cost you.

I decided to stick with the factory strut setup and add wheel spacers because my GTO is only being used on the road course while I grow my skillset, and it's a fairly good setup as it is. I'm planning to move into a dedicated track car (f-body for AI/CMC) in April/May, and the GTO will go back to 100% street duty; So the $1000 I would spend on coilovers is better put towards the purchase of the AI/CMC car.

Another point to make is return for the dollar spent. So many people get into road course events and start throwing lots of money at their car to improve its capabilities, but the reality is they just want to brag about the parts and not really go any faster. If they wanted to go faster, that money would be much better spent on track time and coaching sessions.

A driver in a stock GTO, with good track experience and lots of coaching sessions under his belt, will run circles around a green noob in a fully prepped GTO with coilovers, swaybars, wide tires, big brakes, etc ...

NOTHING beats track time and quality coaching, and your time/money is much better spent on those rather than parts for the car (other than the basic safety stuff... which brake fluid, pads, tires are considered) IF your goal is to go fast on the race track.

So, 1st thing anyone should do when considering road course racing is decide what their goals are, and make financial decisions which support that goal. My goal (starting ~3 years ago) was always to use the GTO to grow my skils and get my comp license, then transition into W2W racing with an AI/CMC car .... what's yours?
Much in the same,I want to be better and I want to take the GTO as far as it will physically let me. Like you said though,I don't want to go overboard because I think a car more "track" oriented in design or intended to be track used is better suited for the coils,cage,etc. I want to maintain my GTO in all its do everything well glory. Later down the line once I see how I feel about road racing and the GTO,I will be more amped to spend dimb amounts of money on the car.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Good info from these guys so far.

Biggest limiting factors for the GTO are the stock brakes, front end geometry, and limited tire size.

For the brakes, stock up on the cheapest rotors you can find (I found some for $8 each and bought a dozen of them), a set of track duty pads (Carbotech XP10, EBC blues, etc ...), and get some good fluid into the lines (I use Wilwood EXP 600).

Rotors are consumable items when you track this car, so DBAs are not the way to go unless you're ok with spending that much cash every couple of events.

Keep the DBA rotors and EBC red pads for street duty, and swap them out for track events.

For the front end geometry and tire size, you're pretty much limited to .5 -.75 degrees of negative camber with the stock configuration and 245/45/17 tires (are you on 17 or 18s?). To get more camber, you'll need different rims with a better offset, or some wheel spacers.

I've been tracking my GTO for almost 3 years now, and go to 5 or so events a year. Each event is 2 days, with four 20 minute sessions per day. I've run the EBC yellows, Blues and Oranges, and liked the blues the best. My next event is this weekend, and I'm going with Carbotech XP10 pads this time.

After you have a few events under your belt, and the tires start limiting your times, move up to a comp-R tire (I run Nitto NT01s).

Believe it or not, the stock suspension on these cars is very good on the track. It's predictable and easy to control, especially for someone who is learning. The biggest draw back from the suspension is the understeer. To dial it out, you can swap the rear sway bar only, and leave the stock front bar in place.

My car right now has stock springs, Monroe Sensatrac replacement dampers, SLP rear sway bar, all poly bushings and 6mm spacers up front. I'm able to get neg 2* camber up front now, and that combined with the SLP rear bar, completely eliminated the understeer. The car feels fantastic now, although I'm not sure how well I would have done 3 years ago if the car was setup this way.

The understeer is safe, and will keep you on the track when you enter a corner too fast. You'll turn, and the slip angle will be huge, causing you to scrub lots of speed ... eventually you'll end up taking the corner wide, but remain on trackl. The same situation in an oversteer car, can easily cause you to spin before you realize it.

Another thing to watch for is oil pressure ... the front sump design can be problematic with high lateral G forces. Get a good gauge and look at it each lap in a safe spot (long straight). Also put an extra quart of oil in before an event to help control the oil starvation risk.

Good luck!

Oh, and I forgot to mention: Sliding is slow ... if your drifting, or spinning tires, or sliding, you're losing time. This is not a bad thing if you're wheel-to-wheel and trying to prevent someone from passing, but in time trial (or HPDE), it's just going to eat into your time. Watch a small, light, low HP car go around the track. That's called a "momentum car", and a good driver will squeeze every thou of a second out of it by using minimal braking and setting the car up to be on the gas as soon as possible mid-corner. If you come flying into a corner with all your Horses pumping, and can't slow down enough, it will feel fast as you slide through the corner, but reality is you can't get on the gas until you have control again and are setup to ride the angle out to the exit berm. The guy in the momentum car will come in casually, brake a little bit, and glide through the corner, getting setup to be on the gas just before the apex, and blow by you on corner exit; and because of this, his momentum will most likely prevent you from catching him on the straight even though you could have 200+ HP advantage on him.

The sayings "Smooth is Fast" and "Slow in, fast out" are absolutely true!
 
#12 ·
For the front end geometry and tire size, you're pretty much limited to .5 -.75 degrees of negative camber with the stock configuration and 245/45/17 tires (are you on 17 or 18s?). To get more camber, you'll need different rims with a better offset, or some wheel spacers.
With coilovers up front, wheel studs and spacers (or lower offset wheels) you should be able to fit 265-275 tires to match the rears and have a square setup.
 
#13 ·
Right, it's a matter of spending the $$ for the parts needed to gain the clearance, then deciding if you want more tire size or more neg camber.

The bottom line is tire size and neg camber capability are both a weakness of this car for road course duty. There are ways to cure them, but it will certainly cost you.

I decided to stick with the factory strut setup and add wheel spacers because my GTO is only being used on the road course while I grow my skillset, and it's a fairly good setup as it is. I'm planning to move into a dedicated track car (f-body for AI/CMC) in April/May, and the GTO will go back to 100% street duty; So the $1000 I would spend on coilovers is better put towards the purchase of the AI/CMC car.

Another point to make is return for the dollar spent. So many people get into road course events and start throwing lots of money at their car to improve its capabilities, but the reality is they just want to brag about the parts and not really go any faster. If they wanted to go faster, that money would be much better spent on track time and coaching sessions.

A driver in a stock GTO, with good track experience and lots of coaching sessions under his belt, will run circles around a green noob in a fully prepped GTO with coilovers, swaybars, wide tires, big brakes, etc ...

NOTHING beats track time and quality coaching, and your time/money is much better spent on those rather than parts for the car (other than the basic safety stuff... which brake fluid, pads, tires are considered) IF your goal is to go fast on the race track.

So, 1st thing anyone should do when considering road course racing is decide what their goals are, and make financial decisions which support that goal. My goal (starting ~3 years ago) was always to use the GTO to grow my skils and get my comp license, then transition into W2W racing with an AI/CMC car .... what's yours?
 
#16 ·
As "STOOP" said, there is no replacement for track time. I started 3 years ago and it has become an obsession now. One way to gauge your improvement is to see how you compare with those cars that are better thru the turns. If you can maintain a close distance or increase distance if you are in front of them then you are faster in the turns. It will take awhile but that is where the track time makes a difference.
This year I will be running R compounds for the first time in place of Bridgstone RE-11's, so the learning curve starts over.
 
#18 ·
Thanks,and I was actually quite surprised of the difference between my fastest lap time and the one of the F430. Granted in road racing 3 seconds is a lot,but for someone starting out it was pretty exciting.
 
#19 ·
Sounds like you're still trying to decide what your goal is. Is it to build a road course car and develop your skills to run with competent drivers/cars, or is it to build a fast street car which you can use for the occasional road course fun day but no intent to be competitive?

The title says 'How competitive can I expect to be'. So to answer that directly: "Not very competitive if you spend your $$ and time on performance upgrades to the car" or it can be "fairly competitive if you focus on reliability upgrades and driver skill (track time/coaching)".

Also, FYI: For accurate oil temps, you'll need to install a sending unit. The factory PCM does give you an oil temp reading, but it's a calculated value based on various other sensor readings. I compared the PCM calculated value vs. my sending unit value, and they are very close during normal day-to-day driving, but they were way off when driving on the course. I was seeing 290*F + temps on some days, so I installed a Laminova heat exchanger to cool the oil. This brought it down into the 270*F range.
 
#20 ·
It's more to see as far as road racing the car in general "how competitive can I expect to be". Especially considering the cars that will show up on the track days here in Italy when I go. To put it short,I'm trying to learn all aspects of the car as best I can so I can formulate the direction of the car. For the GTO right now, I envision an awesome all around performer,something like a AMG 6.3 Black series but on a budget....lol. I want to find the best way to modify it to be decent on the track,decent at the strip and still maintain all the things that I love about it on the day to day.

That and I got a killer deal on Kook's LT's WITH midpipe here in Italy I'm simply not going to pass up ;-). So far aside from weight and minor suspension mods,the biggest thing that appears hold this car back is cooling and so I will make a plan to address it. There are TONS of couching tracks out here too, everything from M3's to full out Kart cars ( that shit is happening ).
 
#22 ·
Also on drag strip,but it was fun as hell !
 
#23 ·
As someone who's been tracking the GTO for 5 years, I second what Stoop has to say.

Spend your money on trackdays, and fixing what breaks on the car. You'll be much better off (and money/track time ahead) if you don't go mod-crazy. I ran the stock radiator for 3 years! The closer you can stay to what GM put on the powertrain, the more reliable you'll be.

As far as competitive, you'll be mid-pack in the GTO after you get your driving skill to a good level. If your intention is to compete as in race, learn on the GTO for a year and step up to a real track car. You'll only be passing Ferraris/Porches in the GTO if their driver sucks.

I have no aspirations above open-passing HPDE, so I'm sticking with my full interior caged GTO. It's been a very reliable car (at stock power levels) assuming you upgrade the necessary stuff like brakes.

Of course headers won't hurt, and it'll make it sound good. Do it. :) (assuming you don't have dB restrictions at the tracks in Italy)
 
#24 · (Edited)
Oh believe me, I'm lisening to all the advice very well because I want to learn the car overall. To be honest,I don't desire ZOMG HORZ POOWAZZ in the car right now. For some reason, I just don't get that feeling from the car. I do want to maximize what it already does now,by making it a little better in some areas. It came with a k&n on it already and a SLP LM cat-back. So my goal with the LT's is to simply finish it off and maximize efficiency. For as long as I am in Italy,this will be the extent of my power mods. Unless of course I am forced to do something major due to a catastrophic failure (god forbid).

Next up is dailing in suspension and new wheels/tires. Tracking such a large engine car here is kind of expensive, so I have every intention of saving money for the important stuff. The car doesn't strike me as something that is great at anyone thing. It is however really good at many things equally and I want to keep that aspect about it. So in the future I forsee me moving on to something better suited. Be it for road racing,drag,street,etc the next car will be much stronger base for racing in general. For now I will enjoy the GTO,but I will use this thread to track my progress on the road course.

The middle of the pack sounds good to me !! I don't mind as kong as I have fun and nake it home.
 
#28 ·
This right here means you'll do well. This car's a lot of fun to drive on track, it's like a big yellow golden retriever.
Thanks,I really do like the car and just want to get a heads up.
 
#25 · (Edited)
how far are you willing to go to be competitive is the question. Weight is what will hold you back the most. You can pull over 1000lbs out of the GTO if you are willing to take it to that level.
Also adjusting camber caster and toe is a must. Do all poly bushings, (adjustable rears) caster kit, good set of coilovers with spring rates for a track not the street. Upgrading brakes will help a lot for late braking into corners. Obviously Good tires and a temp and pressure gauge for the tires.
Dialing in the cars suspension will help out your times a lot more than adding 100hp or more. Focus on that. In the end its all about seat time tho.
 
#26 ·
Yeah I know as I have read thus far,but as of right now I want to increase the overall fun factor. I think it handles fairly well for such a big car,I just want a little more feel and confidence. I spent the better part of my lunch period looking up tracks within five hours of me here in Naples.

There is a track that offers a 5 day driving school with everything from GT cars to entry level Formula. There is also another fairly large track about 45 minutes from me as well. I also found out that there is a track event coming up where you get to make laps in a GT prepper Maserati for 60 bucks a lap....so happening !

I don't expect to take the GTO to super awesome full metal enterior competition just yet. Right now,I just want some insight to point me in the right direction and I'll take it from there. I will say though,if i can manage to get good enough to make a M3 sweat,I'd be pretty proud of myself.
 
#30 ·
Before I read any of the advice from the seasoned folks, I was thinking brake upgrade (you already have DBAs - good enough) and weight reduction as two immediate places to invest your focus/time/money for safe, reliable fun around a track. You've already got some fresh suspension bits, so that may tide you over for a while.

To me, the way I drive my car, as Stoop said, the car is pretty predictable in stock-ish form - it just behaves the same way every time, no overly scary surprises. Now, that's with my current setup (Lovells/KYB) though, but I imagine that characteristic of predictability is intrinsic to the GTO platform rather than any specific suspension setup you could apply to the car (busted stock bits excepted). Again, your suspension may be good enough to get you going for the next 3 months, maybe even year depending on where you want to go with.

As Stoop said, buy cheap rotors, as the race pads will literally eat through them if you track the car often enough. I like the point about oil temp/pressure gauges, too. Different pads for track vs street is a must, too.

miker, the local AutoX timing chief, has modded his car backwards and forwards 3 or 4 times (replaced some parts that many times even). He's the local SM champ, but has to drive the shit out of his car to do it, even with all the mods he has. Just saying you can make the car fast, but it'll take a good bit to get there, and tons of seat time. The expectation should probably be to have a forward-of-middle-of-the-pack car that has plenty of grunt on the straights but is balanced enough in the braking/twisties to really reel people in.

With the headers, maybe the tune should be your last HP mod. The Svede + ported intake will put you in the ballpark of 30rwhp gained over the headers+tune already. With all of that, you'd be putting down some heavy torque for an ass-happy, beefy, RWD car in the twisties, maybe too much to manage comfortably just starting out. The tune is simple anyway, not like pulling the intake manifold, which isn't hard, but still it's pulling an intake manifold and all that comes with it (vacuum hoses, fuel rail, covering the head intake ports, etc. - just kinda involved when you consider the extra HP may actually hurt you). Like you said, the LS2 already has torque everywhere, and a pretty flat curve at that, so there's no sudden, unpredictable torque spikes to deal with. Adding the Svede+intake may take you over the top on the torque in the twisties.

Like you said, the GTO doesn't excel at any one thing, but is a decent all-rounder, even if a bit beefy on the scales. Should be fun. Get ready to spend some money on broken/wornout/raced parts!
 
#31 ·
Thanks Paulsz28,
I just got a facebook message the other day inviting me to Vallalunga in March,so I will be ordering blanks and pads next month. To be honest,with all the road trips and events I'm trying to make. I simply don't have enough extra money to do much more then what I am already or have already done.

I've owned faster cars then the GTO and corner carved a few MR2's,but the track is another animal. I have decided to attend as many cheap driving schools in Italy as I can find. There is one in Aprilia that lets you drive a 360 Modena Challenge GT race car !!! Granted it's only for one lap,but you get kart car seat time and shifter cart seat time as well.

All in all it's about a 4-5 hour school with lots of training and class time. I talked to the owner and he said his school is focused more on you driving then in a class room like most schools in Italy. The best part is it's ONLY 99 Euro ( about 130 bucks ) and each additional lap in the Ferrari is 35 Euro. So I think it will be a B-day gift to myself.
 
#32 ·
UPDATE: Post track day report

Well first and foremost,I had LOADS OF FUN !! At no time did I concern myself with how fast my time was,my apex,or hell even braking ! I mean, I did towards the end. However, to be honest I was more worried about not breaking anything or hitting anyone seeing as I had a two hour drive home. I did learn a lot though and it was fun. I will do it again,but I think next time I will be much better prepared then this time.

Breaks surely need some upgrading as they where cooked at the second half of the first session. The track itself was amazing and easy to follow. I have lots of video and most of it is me getting passed,but it's cool. I think with matching tires in better shape,better suited brakes and fresher clutch I should be in buisness. I do have some front suspension stuff that needs address. I have the parts,I just need a few more before I install everything.

I'll keep you guys posted,pics and vids are in my thread GTO Adventures.

Here's a link to my Youtube page with the vids: http://www.youtube.com/user/Japracer02?feature=mhee
 
#33 ·
Nice! Looks like a really fun track to drive! Did you have an instructor at all? Looks like you had a blast!!!! :cool:

Your brakes were cooked because you were riding them and extending out the brake zone longer than it needed to be.

It's harder on the brakes to lightly press the pedal for a longer period of time than it is to completely stand on the pedal for a shorter period of time.

You were braking very early, and riding the pedal all the way to the turn in. If you waited to hit the brakes until closer, and slammed them hard (ie: the seatbelt should feel like it's punching you in the chest), then let off slowly, your pads will last longer.

Also try to get your downshifting done before turning in, it'll be much smoother .... then get on the gas sooner and slide the car out to the exit berm.

So, how do you feel about your original question?
Given my plans and some minor adjustments,how competative can I expect to be out here running against M3's,Proches,and well....Ferrari's.
Those things were flying around that track, weren't they? LOL!
 
#34 · (Edited)
Nice! Looks like a really fun track to drive! Did you have an instructor at all? Looks like you had a blast!!!! :cool:

Your brakes were cooked because you were riding them and extending out the brake zone longer than it needed to be.

It's harder on the brakes to lightly press the pedal for a longer period of time than it is to completely stand on the pedal for a shorter period of time.

You were braking very early, and riding the pedal all the way to the turn in. If you waited to hit the brakes until closer, and slammed them hard (ie: the seatbelt should feel like it's punching you in the chest), then let off slowly, your pads will last longer.

Also try to get your downshifting done before turning in, it'll be much smoother .... then get on the gas sooner and slide the car out to the exit berm.

So, how do you feel about your original question?


Those things were flying around that track, weren't they? LOL!
Weellll.....I lost braking half way through the first session and that was using them the correct way as you described. I just didn't have any,so what I ended up doing is simply getting off the throttle and gingerly clutch braking ( that's why it looks like I'm simply on the brakes the whole time ). At one point after it cooled down and I went back for the next session it got a little better,but it just wouldn't stop.

So I will be ordering more brakes here soon along with front tires ( they where..meh to begin with ). I also need to change out the front shocks and upper bushings too since I have those on hand anyway.

Then I'll feel much better about going to town out on the track. Surprisingly enough,she didn't so all that bad ! Ok,well granted the video says otherwise,but what you don't see is all the cars that "didn't" pass me..bwahahahahah. There was about 30 or so cars in the field. Like you said before though "expect to be about mid pack" and that's where I stayed. Despite the issues I muscled through,I had a great time and I learned a lot.

As for my original question,well depending on how prepared the car is a head of time...pretty damn competitive. There was a 911 Turbo I fought off for three or four turn with sheer power alone. However,it came down to breaking and I simply didn't have it...at all. So I'm going to start back at "0" with fresh rotors and heavy duty pads and work on my breaking technique.

To be fare,those Ferrari's and the one white Porshe are straight up GT Class race cars.....just saying,lol.

Oh and no I didn't have an instructor,but I will be doing a school this summer for my birthday.
 
#35 ·
Hmmm, if you lost braking then either the fluid boiled, or the pads were gassing; it's not an issue with the rotors. Did you swap the fluid out for high temp stuff? What pads did you end up going with?

When you say "lost braking", did the pedal feel normal and you just weren't slowing down, or did the pedal go spongy on you?

For comparison: I instructed out at "Circuit of the Americas" last weekend for the Lamborghini club, and I can tell you a stock Lambo will run complete circles around a heavily modified, race prepped, GTO with equal drivers. The platforms are just completely different, and designed with a different purpose in mind.

Lambos, Ferraris, Porshes (like the GT3s) are purpose built from the ground up for stuff like this :D

(ex: lambos are not bolted together, everything is welded which gives the car an extremely stiff chassis ... the mechanical grip, even on street tires, is outstanding!)

Certainly get your brake situation sorted out, and throw some decent tires on there. You can't be fast if you're not confident ... that's rule #2 (rule #1 is "If you can't stop, then don't go!) LOL
 
#36 · (Edited)
I would say a combination of the two or one lead to the other. Because at first it was spongy when stabbing them like you said I need to do. However,when fighting the Porshe in turn 5 or 6 ( which is hella fun,like dog fighting on the ground ). I "out braked him" as far as line and timing,but the GTO was like "F-You,I aint stopping for shit". So I ended up clutch breaking her hard core to avoid the run-off area.

Then every corner after was like it just would not stop. The first thing I thought of was the fluid because I toltalled forgot about it before heading up there. It's cool though,because now I will make a point to and situations like that one are just little reminders to check the little stuff.

Afterall,I'm not a roadcourse guy at heart,so this is all a learning experience and I like to learn, so its no big deal. I take it one lesson at a time ! You're right about ground up purpose,because you really can't see how fast those damn things are until they are on their home turf ! Which is more reason why I need to find a drag racing event to return the favor and thus feel good about myself out treeing these same cars,lol.
 
#37 ·
Sounds like you boiled the fluid. You could have bled the calipers between sessions and your braking would have come back, until it boiled again.

When fluid boils, it's just the fluid in the caliper itself, not fluid in the lines or reservoir, so you can just bleed it out of the calipers until all the black stuff is gone.

When it boils, then cools down, you get air in the system as well as some moisture. Then, because of the air/moisture, the boiling point is reduced and it will boil easier next time.

Get some good fluid in there, and this problem will go away. The stock '05-'06 caliper and rotor size is fine for road course duty until you really get to advanced levels on slicks. You need good fluid and good pads, and the braking performance will increase significantly.
 
#38 ·
Thanks,that's on the list for sure before I hit tracks like Mugello and Monza which from what I understand are SIGNIFICANTLY faster tracks. So on the list his summer for road course prep is pads,cut the rotors I have ( if it's needed ),badass fluid,and new wheels/tires ( mostly because the stock combo is getting old and doesn't suit my personality. I also have a feeling my strut bearing are moving from being really bad and needed changing.

This is fine because I have Pedders replacements in the garage among other replacement parts. But I need front springs ordered and shocks before I can put them on. All in all I am happy with it's performance as a weekend track car,but like you said. If I feel the need to take road racing seriously,I'll simply switch to a Corvette,Miata,RX-7, or something much better suited for this kind of thing.

Drag racing is where my heart is,so I don't see that happening anytime soon,lol.
 
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