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Old 11-27-2012, 12:58 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawson...View Post
No shop is going to touch another shops tune. Too many variables there.

Once tuned though any changes or touch ups are by the hour. Corrections/issues of course are free.

Oh I know that, I thought he was talking about his current tuner charging that for a retune. Maybe I misunderstood.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:50 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by jpvulpes...View Post
Well, he kind of called it on your ability. Anyone who is even partially competent at tuning would know that you really need a wideband.

And you're the one who is acting butthurt.

Just sayin.

LOL no just have a low BS tolerance As far as mean spirited he stated "stupid questions" a number of times. How is that not mean spirited or trying to be helpful ?

FYI I tuned my turbo GP using only narrow band and it was tuned very well. Different motor different tuner and HP tuner I have used very little. That was why I was humbly asking advice on here ....

I do appreciate it when people try to help. I learn so much about cars on these forums. Unfortunately there is always lots of static to deal with as well. Usually from bored members.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:53 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ddawson...View Post
No shop is going to touch another shops tune. Too many variables there.

Once tuned though any changes or touch ups are by the hour. Corrections/issues of course are free.

I didnt know that but he did explain that to me. I look at it like there is very little tuning that would need to be done in a lot of areas. Tranny for instance doesnt need to be touched. would be nice if these tuners gave you some kind of discount since they wont be doing as much work as a stock tune. Good way to gain some business as well.

If I get the cam I will most likely go through Rick and be done with it.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:04 PM   #34
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Tuning with a narrow band is just blind luck if you happen to get it right and an expensive mistake if you don't. Wide bands give nice smooth outputs and they still have some error. Narrow bands have such a narrow point of any meaning and the tiny voltage difference between is ripe for sensor and and voltage errors.

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Old 11-27-2012, 07:19 PM   #35
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OP, if you want a "pretty close" tune it's not that hard. With your setup, you don't have to do VE if you don't really want to so it's really just dialing in the fueling and timing. It's been a few months since I messed with mine, but there are tables that need to be tweaked like startup Airflow and airflow minimum, adaptive idle spark over and underspeed may be needed to level your idle out if its searching (this is more necessary on a lower lsa, the car will sway it's timing considerably causing the car to surge up and down)

Honestly, the cam has such a high lsa and large split like stock, so just throw it in, do some fueling tunes to make sure everything is in line and then see where you sit with the tune. You might only need minor tweaks past that. If you need help with getting it to idle right or start correctly (you usually need to raise the airflow minimum tables when you put a larger cam in) you can PM me and I'd be glad to help you out.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:21 PM   #36
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You really should at least borrow a wideband. I tuned my old regal GS on a narrowband too, but it's a crap shoot. Shoot for around 11.5 afr....probably 18* timing max at your boost level.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dlively11...View Post
LOL no just have a low BS tolerance As far as mean spirited he stated "stupid questions" a number of times. How is that not mean spirited or trying to be helpful ?

FYI I tuned my turbo GP using only narrow band and it was tuned very well. Different motor different tuner and HP tuner I have used very little. That was why I was humbly asking advice on here ....

I do appreciate it when people try to help. I learn so much about cars on these forums. Unfortunately there is always lots of static to deal with as well. Usually from bored members.

I tried doing the narrow-band method on the gto years back. Then i discovered what a shot in the dark using that method really is.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:57 PM   #38
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OP if you would join us on a track day we would be able to help but you seem to go different days when we go. One of the guys in our group has an LM2 wideband.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:05 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by dlively11...View Post
FYI I tuned my turbo GP using only narrow band and it was tuned very well.

Yeah, right. A narrowband is only useful to know when you are close to 14.7 and that's about it. It's practically impossible to know if your AFR is 10 or 13 so I call bullshit on the "tuned very well" part. Maybe it didn't blow up, but that doesn't mean it was "tuned very well".

If you can tune turbo cars with narrowbands, why are you asking us if you can tune your S/Ced car again?
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:42 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by radu_rd2...View Post
Yeah, right. A narrowband is only useful to know when you are close to 14.7 and that's about it. It's practically impossible to know if your AFR is 10 or 13 so I call bullshit on the "tuned very well" part. Maybe it didn't blow up, but that doesn't mean it was "tuned very well".

If you can tune turbo cars with narrowbands, why are you asking us if you can tune your S/Ced car again?

It was tuned very well and I did do it myself but I guess you know more then I would Fact I was getting 32 MPG (more then stock) got zero KR and dynoed very well for the small turbo I had on it. tuned it a lot when it was SC as well. That motor can handle boost and early tuning mistakes a lot better then one of these motors. There are ways of knowing how a car is running without knowing the exact AFR. Lots of little changes and lots of time spent payed off for me time and time again on that car. Hell that little 3.8 can go up to about 600 WHP stock bottom end which is 3 times what it makes stock. Big difference .

maybe because this is a different platform and I was looking for ADVISE and HELP .....

Last edited by dlively11; 11-27-2012 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:45 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Shift_GRIND...View Post
OP, if you want a "pretty close" tune it's not that hard. With your setup, you don't have to do VE if you don't really want to so it's really just dialing in the fueling and timing. It's been a few months since I messed with mine, but there are tables that need to be tweaked like startup Airflow and airflow minimum, adaptive idle spark over and underspeed may be needed to level your idle out if its searching (this is more necessary on a lower lsa, the car will sway it's timing considerably causing the car to surge up and down)

Honestly, the cam has such a high lsa and large split like stock, so just throw it in, do some fueling tunes to make sure everything is in line and then see where you sit with the tune. You might only need minor tweaks past that. If you need help with getting it to idle right or start correctly (you usually need to raise the airflow minimum tables when you put a larger cam in) you can PM me and I'd be glad to help you out.

Wow, I really appreciate this information, thank you very much. I go back and forth. I like to tweak things, always have. I have HP tuner sitting right here and I enjoyed tuning the tranny on it. I get a little worried when I have a blower at high boost already. I wouldnt know exactly how to start the WOT tuning mainly. That is where it will go boom if it is way out of whack for some reason. I was thinking the same thing for the LS9 cam in particular. Seems like that cam would be pretty doable. Not so sure about Ed Curtis Cam though. He did spec it to be very smooth idling and to be able to pass smog so perhaps it would be doable as well.


I didnt get the HPT that supports wideband ...... I guess I can upgrade to that and get a wide band.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004KID...View Post
OP if you would join us on a track day we would be able to help but you seem to go different days when we go. One of the guys in our group has an LM2 wideband.


Thank you I appreciate that. As far as the track days I just go when I can actually get away. Having a 5 year old and a wife in school makes that a little more difficult. I hadnt even been to the track in 4-5 years until late this year when I went three times

Last edited by dlively11; 11-27-2012 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:20 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by dlively11...View Post
It was tuned very well and I did do it myself but I guess you know more then I would Fact I was getting 32 MPG (more then stock) got zero KR and dynoed very well for the small turbo I had on it. tuned it a lot when it was SC as well. That motor can handle boost and early tuning mistakes a lot better then one of these motors. There are ways of knowing how a car is running without knowing the exact AFR. Lots of little changes and lots of time spent payed off for me time and time again on that car. Hell that little 3.8 can go up to about 600 WHP stock bottom end which is 3 times what it makes stock. Big difference .

maybe because this is a different platform and I was looking for ADVISE and HELP .....

Lots of little changes and lots of time spent vs. buying a $200 wideband and doing it right. My ADVICE? Get a wideband this time and do it right.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:29 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift_GRIND...View Post
OP, if you want a "pretty close" tune it's not that hard. With your setup, you don't have to do VE if you don't really want to so it's really just dialing in the fueling and timing. It's been a few months since I messed with mine, but there are tables that need to be tweaked like startup Airflow and airflow minimum, adaptive idle spark over and underspeed may be needed to level your idle out if its searching (this is more necessary on a lower lsa, the car will sway it's timing considerably causing the car to surge up and down)

Honestly, the cam has such a high lsa and large split like stock, so just throw it in, do some fueling tunes to make sure everything is in line and then see where you sit with the tune. You might only need minor tweaks past that. If you need help with getting it to idle right or start correctly (you usually need to raise the airflow minimum tables when you put a larger cam in) you can PM me and I'd be glad to help you out.

Do you really have any clue what you are talking about? Have you ever tuned a car? Do you understand how to tune? Have you ever heard of LTFT's? The bolded statement above makes me question all these things.

meow.

And OP tuning a car (a boosted one at that) without a wideband is retarded. Answer this questions...if you cannot afford a wideband can you afford a new motor?

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Old 11-28-2012, 03:22 AM   #44
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Why wouldn't you be able to obtain what you are looking for with the stock cam? The LS9 is definitely smooth, but I think what you are looking for can already be had. You can get the idle pretty smooth and you'll stay under the 30whp gain you said was your limit.

The LS9 is definitely an upgrade, but I would spend the money on a wideband and tune the current cam.

If you can install the cam yourself you would spend under $500 for the LS9 cam and a wideband.

I tried tuning my supercharged 3800 with the narrow bands as well. I realized real quick I wasn't getting anywhere with it. I'm by no means an experienced tuner, but I'm literally nothing without the wideband. It's worth it's weight in gold.

If you are ever in the Maryland area you can come by and use my LM2.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:42 PM   #45
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The car has a good tune on it right now from a very reputable tuner. Dont think I would gain much by having the stock cam retuned. If I am going to cam it I want at least 30 WHP 40 or 50 would be even better. I can afford a wide band and a new motor or new car for that matter, but like anyone, I try to save money where possible.

I dont think I am going to try and tune it myself wideband or not. I wonder if the cam is even going to get me the kind of SOTP I am looking for anyway. If I can gain a solid 4-5 MPH in trap speeds with a cam ugrade it is worth it, otherwise I might start looking in other directions. I have always really wanted a Twin turbo on this car but $500 smogs arent so great. 250 a year isnt too bad though .... been thinking about a blown C6 too but wife would make me sell the GTO for that. Have her convinced to get a E55 AMG once I sell the 300C though . Just saw a guy at the track who had LT headers, tune, pulley and tires running 10.9@127 MPH Going to the track always makes me want so much more.

Last edited by dlively11; 11-28-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:29 AM   #46
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I would get a better cam or a custom grind if those are your goals. After forking $$ for the install and tune, it won't make that big of a difference money-wise and you will get better results. And don't worry about drivability, mild-to-medium blower cams are usually very well-mannered.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:12 AM   #47
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There is a local member who has a A4 LS2 with LT headers, custom EDC cam, I believe a procharger and he is getting less then stellar results. He just ran at the track with a -200 DA and only trapped 115 MPH which is less then I am on stock cam and shortys .. Plus I have a stall which should lower MPH a little I thought. I did hear he is running low boost but still seems very low as cam only guys are running the same trap speeds. Need to find out more about his setup. Maybe he doesnt even have a blower cam and may have a bad tune. I just want a difference I can really feel if I am putting that much money into her. I would think 30-40 WHP would give me a 4+ MPH increase in traps and a happy butt dyno
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:25 PM   #48
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Without a wideband , you're not tuning and hand helds pale to a software interface tuner like efi or HP.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:26 PM   #49
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No such thing as a happy butt dyno. Well maybe the first hit after new mods, but not after that.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:26 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by SCyjGTO...View Post
Without a wideband , you're not tuning and hand helds pale to a software interface tuner like efi or HP.


Yes you are tuning but it makes it more difficult. I have HPT, I only use a handheld for quick scans.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:20 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by svede1212...View Post
Tuning with a narrow band is just blind luck if you happen to get it right and an expensive mistake if you don't. Wide bands give nice smooth outputs and they still have some error. Narrow bands have such a narrow point of any meaning and the tiny voltage difference between is ripe for sensor and and voltage errors.

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Old 12-01-2012, 07:22 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by 87LC2...View Post
Do you have an AFR gauge?

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Originally Posted by jpvulpes...View Post
Well, he kind of called it on your ability. Anyone who is even partially competent at tuning would know that you really need a wideband. .


Quote:
Originally Posted by mchicia1...View Post
Agree x million.

You need a wideband on a boosted car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpvulpes...View Post
I tried doing the narrow-band method on the gto years back. Then i discovered what a shot in the dark using that method really is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by camarochevy1970...View Post
If you don't have a wide band, don't mess with the tune. And I don't know that there is a shop out there that will do WOT and not plan on re-doing the entire tune. Would leave to many variables unanswered, and if something went wrong, would leave them exposed to complaints/ridicule for a tune that wasn't fully their responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicklynx...View Post

If you can install the cam yourself you would spend under $500 for the LS9 cam and a wideband.

I tried tuning my supercharged 3800 with the narrow bands as well. I realized real quick I wasn't getting anywhere with it. I'm by no means an experienced tuner, but I'm literally nothing without the wideband. It's worth it's weight in gold.

If you are ever in the Maryland area you can come by and use my LM2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slammin86...View Post
And OP tuning a car (a boosted one at that) without a wideband is retarded. Answer this questions...if you cannot afford a wideband can you afford a new motor?
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by radu_rd2...View Post
Yeah, right. A narrowband is only useful to know when you are close to 14.7 and that's about it. It's practically impossible to know if your AFR is 10 or 13 so I call bullshit on the "tuned very well" part. Maybe it didn't blow up, but that doesn't mean it was "tuned very well".

If you can tune turbo cars with narrowbands, why are you asking us if you can tune your S/Ced car again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift_GRIND...View Post
You really should at least borrow a wideband. I tuned my old regal GS on a narrowband too, but it's a crap shoot. Shoot for around 11.5 afr....probably 18* timing max at your boost level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2004KID...View Post
OP if you would join us on a track day we would be able to help but you seem to go different days when we go. One of the guys in our group has an LM2 wideband.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawson...View Post
If you find a local shop, NewTech, Synergy that will do a WOT tune only after a cam swap let me know so I can go smack Nick or Rick.

I've even had to have a re-tune going with a bigger TB so a Cam swap with a blower is playing with fire.

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Old 12-01-2012, 07:38 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by slammin86...View Post
Do you really have any clue what you are talking about? Have you ever tuned a car? Do you understand how to tune? Have you ever heard of LTFT's? The bolded statement above makes me question all these things.

meow.

And OP tuning a car (a boosted one at that) without a wideband is retarded. Answer this questions...if you cannot afford a wideband can you afford a new motor?

The smurf on internet warriors.

I could probably have just ignored this but you come in here like a internet know it all badass who needs to try to one up someone to try to prove some sort of superiority. Then you end it with a internet warrior comment. Irony.

I have had hptuners for probably 4 years and tuned enough to know how to help the op. Some people think you need a Ve tune with just bolt ons. Fact is its not necessary on a car with a stock like cam stock heads and displacement. Will it help? Sure. Will the OPs car start, drive and run perfectly fine without doing it? Absolutely. I street tuned my car when it was boosted and later when it was cam only just fine with no issues and used a Wb to dial in the fueling under wot. I made 496whp with a tvs1900 and lpe intake and
smaller pulley, didn't even have headers. Now with a small cam, stock intake manifold and stock stall it runs neck and neck with a head / larger cam g8 that just trapped almost 118 at the track in street trim plus drag radials.

Op if you're worried about starting your tune just start conservative. I used my larger pulley and pulled the timing back to around 14 and just work your way closer to where you want to be. There are more tables then there were with 3800s but it's not bad.

Fyi I talked to the guys from hptuners at sema a few weeks back about Ve tuning and how necessary it is. The said exactly what I said, the further from stock the more benefit you will get. Stock like cam, bolt ons its not needed, but it can provide some benefit.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:50 AM   #54
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It's a stupid question because you are asking other people to use a crystal ball and figure out what your tuning skill level is and somehow tell you whether or not you are competent enough to do something. Only you can know this. However, based on your posts (the only information I have about your skill level), I'd say you are not competent enough to do it. Now don't tell me this "not constructive" because I answered your question, even if it hurt your e-feelers.

I still don't understand the point of bashing someone on the Internet. Clearly you have nothing better to do. But go ahead and defend yourself because that's what you get your jolleys off of.


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Old 12-01-2012, 07:50 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift_GRIND...View Post
I could probably have just ignored this but you come in here like a internet know it all badass who needs to try to one up someone to try to prove some sort of superiority. Then you end it with a internet warrior comment. Irony.

I have had hptuners for probably 4 years and tuned enough to know how to help the op. Some people think you need a Ve tune with just bolt ons. Fact is its not necessary on a car with a stock like cam stock heads and displacement. Will it help? Sure. Will the OPs car start, drive and run perfectly fine without doing it? Absolutely. I street tuned my car when it was boosted and later when it was cam only just fine with no issues and used a Wb to dial in the fueling under wot. I made 496whp with a tvs1900 and lpe intake and
smaller pulley, didn't even have headers. Now with a small cam, stock intake manifold and stock stall it runs neck and neck with a head / larger cam g8 that just trapped almost 118 at the track in street trim plus drag radials.

Op if you're worried about starting your tune just start conservative. I used my larger pulley and pulled the timing back to around 14 and just work your way closer to where you want to be. There are more tables then there were with 3800s but it's not bad.

Fyi I talked to the guys from hptuners at sema a few weeks back about Ve tuning and how necessary it is. The said exactly what I said, the further from stock the more benefit you will get. Stock like cam, bolt ons its not needed, but it can provide some benefit.

If you have the software and the know how then why half ass it? I hardly consider a supercharger a bolt on either.

But keep on giving out your half ass advice on the internet.
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by slammin86...View Post
If you have the software and the know how then why half ass it? I hardly consider a supercharger a bolt on either.

But keep on giving out your half ass advice on the internet.

That's what I was thinkin.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:14 AM   #57
Shift_GRIND
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Have you tuned a ls2 gto with a roots blower on it? I have. It drove 100 percent perfectly like stock without a Ve tune.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:31 AM   #58
mistermike
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I heard narrowband tuning and $700 turbos go pretty well together.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:51 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift_GRIND...View Post
Have you tuned a ls2 gto with a roots blower on it? I have. It drove 100 percent perfectly like stock without a Ve tune.

This is your opinion. Show proof by providing logs and graphs of transitions and lambda ratio.

OP is only looking for people that will pump him up and agree with him.
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:23 AM   #60
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maybe we should all pitch in and buy him a wideband...
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