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Old 02-09-2009, 05:31 PM   #31
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chris i think its time for you to back up your statements, can you please list one person that has had a issue with a adapter plate.i will give you one guy that had a shaft made by me to replace a bad cf shaft.HEATH,now who had a bad plate with a vibration issue with a Non-Sponsor-Engineering shaft.thanks

I never said a problem with your shafts, I said problems with adapters. I had a vibration problem with an adapter.
Didnt mean to sound like I was talking about your shafts..
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:54 PM   #32
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I know that I am bumping this from the dead, but I was wondering what someone would say that the optimum pinion angle would be... I have a vibration and am using a 1 piece aluminum d/s... its only above 75mph, but it is scary bad. I am trying to do some troubleshooting.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:35 AM   #33
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The real issue i believe on these cars is the fact that the cradle can move. this would mean you would have to check the angle on 2 planes. there is a tool made to see it its straight left to right. as for the actual angle the simplest way would be to match the trans and the diff angles. in most stock or factory cars this is the safest way to go. Konnie had a very good post in the beginning of this thread. Read it.



p.s. with the Giubo joint you do wan about Zero so the "rag" joint does not push and pull on the 2 shafts

Last edited by Driveshaft Shop; 11-14-2012 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:35 AM   #34
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Konnie the Goat

the pinion angle is one of 2 key angles, the other being the transmission angle. U-joints dont like a lot of angle for one. and if the angular difference between the trans to shaft, and shaft to diff joints is more than a few degrees, you get noise, vibration, and joint failure.

This does not apply to the GTO in stock form. one, we have and IRS, that doesnt move much. two, we have a 2 piece shaft, which by adding a middle joint increases the variability (althought the angles between joints on the same shaft must remain within the tolerance). And 3, we dont have a pinion u joint. What we have is a rag joint.

These angles matter most on SRA vehicles. They can be alltered by lowering or raising the vehicle, or by cargo loads. They can also change on a momentary basis during acceleration. This is called axle wrap. The pinion will move up, as an oposite reaction to the wheels moving down. What can I say, Newton knew his shit. Motor/trans movement can also change these angles, either thru torque rock, or mount bushing failure.

The closer you get to zero difference at static position (all 4 wheels on the ground, full vehicle weight), the more balanced the angles will remain under momentary dynamic conditions.

In SRA vehicles it is adjusted by changing link lengths on multi link suspension, and with wedged shims on leaf springs.

On an IRS like ours, youd first have to limit travel of the x-member the diff bolts to. There is some play there. Pedders subframe bushings and a HArrop cover will do that. to point the pinion more up, put shims under the Harrop-to-body bracket, or above the differential's back 2 dif-to-xmember bolts. to move it down, you shim the front two bolts.

These angles do matter on a 1 piece DS IRS car. as i said, the diff xmemeber does have play, as do the engine/trans mounts. You dont have as much issue as a SRA car, but it is still there. The chances of major noise and vibration are low, but joint life is still a factor.

also, you cant have a zero angle. the bearings in the ujoint must turn, or they will lock up. this is why old chryslers offset the engine to one side, and why GM engines slope to the rear. Ford cants some of theirs slightly. No i see people saying 'but you cant have a zero angle anyway, for the reasons you listed", and youre right. But thats momentary stuff. The car spends most of its time at the static position, be it idle in a driveway or parking lot, or cruisin downt he road. This is when the joint would seize. It would then fail during a momentary change. This is why its still important to check an IRS cars angles.

The exception is a 100% hard mount, like a c5/c6 vette. Those cars do not have a DS, they have a Torque tube. The diff is always in the same spot, and is infact directly connected to the engine. it does not move. This is how all IRS should be, IMO
Great post
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:39 AM   #35
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I read that one, I was looking for someone who maybe had altered their pinion angle before and found that these cars liked -1degree best. I know how to find what the angle is, and how to adjust it, I was just hoping to not have to try the guess and check method over and over again to obtain the end results that I desire.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:25 AM   #36
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I know that I am bumping this from the dead, but I was wondering what someone would say that the optimum pinion angle would be... I have a vibration and am using a 1 piece aluminum d/s... its only above 75mph, but it is scary bad. I am trying to do some troubleshooting.

Huh. Same problem I'm fighting.

If someone offered me a good 2-piece that would work with my 4L80, I bet they'd make a sale.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:31 PM   #37
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Im in the same boat, trying to figure out how to re-use stock driveshaft with 4L80 upgrade. I thinking about taking f-body driveshaft to shop and have them r&r it to fit gto
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:08 PM   #38
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I am hoping that the pinion angle winds up being the issue so I do not have to get another driveshaft, I am willing to swap to a 2 piece, but I do not really want to unless I absolutely have to. I will probably be messing with the angle this weekend.
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:11 PM   #39
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There is no 'magic' answer. There never is.

The sinusoidal action of a u-joint is self-cancelling in a paired system. in other words, one joint is always equal and opposite of the other. or should be.



red lines are the pinion and trans. black is the propshaft. to not lock up, you need .5* per joint. run a ujoint at zero, it will fail. but let us not worry about that. you'll have that .5 beat. So we need to focus on the split. yove ogt a front joint and a rear joint. In order for them to cancel, the angles must be close. Ideally, zero. SO if the pinion is at 5* up, and the Trans is at 5* up, you have zero angle differnece between the joints on the shaft. the pinion axis is parallel to the Trans axis. Basic geometry takes over. a straight line between them will intersect both lines at equal angles. Savy?

Zero is the goal, that is full cancel. 1* is 'ok' on a street car, but will probably NVH the shit out of you at extra-legal speeds. you get it under .5* split, you can run pretty fast with no shake on a quality shaft.

Measure with a magnetic angle gauge off both joint yokes. Jegs, summit, speedway all stock these. Park the car level, full weight on the wheels, and measure. Then shim.

Checking side angle is a bit trickier. you need to measure from known points and trig that shit out. Do a cradle align first. This is a GM car. GM, almost invariably, tilts the motor down in the back to get the .5 minimum angle into the system. So unless youve really gone in there and changed things (and we all have), that should be ok. But if youve taken the diff out, changed the motor or trans or mounts for anything, you didnt check the angle. of the million things going on, that never crossed your mind, and that is ok.

A 2 pc shaft 'solves' this by splitting the angle in half. Traditionally, 2 pc shafts were used in long trucks and limos where a 1pc wasnt structurally sound due to length. They go in cars today to cover up shoddy workmanship in the factory. They dont need the critical speed gains. They justify the complexity and added mass by assembling the car quicker. Every joint eats power, and a 2pc shaft generally weighs more than a comparable 1pc of the same material. You have an added center bearing (and hardware) as well as the tube connections for that new joint needing more heft to support said joint.

Still, a 2pc is a fine solution. To me, in this application, it is just lazy. blueprint the motor, cnc port heads, degree cams, built trans, all this effort expended. Then it comes time to move the power to the rear, and all the 'effort' steps there seem to get ignored. I find it shocking.

3 years Ive been harping on this. Probably more, but my first post in this thread was 3 years ago. This is like the wheel shake thread. I give the info, get nothing back. No magic answer. Crawl your monkey ass under the car and measure the mothersmurfing angles. Thats step 1.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/upi-3007 $10. get some steel bar thats square to use for spacers if you cant take the joint out. get me some smurfing angles, I'll tell you what to do from there.

Or, put the shit on a trailer to BFE IL. $79/hr for me to use a $10 tool. I love my job.

I've been pondering a topic for a new video. Maybe next slow day I have I'll shoot video of me measuring the angles on my 1990 chevy's propshaft. GTO is done for the year, but it really is all the same shit. I'm trying to hide my frustration, because I don't want to seem dickish while trying to help. Perhaps showing the procedure will clear up the confusion. I sure dont seem to be able to convert this into lay speak well.

Frank got it though. Even gave it his stamp of approval. Thanks, Frank. Always makes a guy feel good to get a compliment from a Master.

Dont worry about what the angles should be before you know what they are. Doric's 4L80 is likely to be different than my T56. Thats's fine, we can work with that.

Frank- many moons ago Dana corp put out a training video on u-joints and their self cancelling action. they have a short prop shaft set up, hooked to a motor. Old video. real old. Can't find it. If you can, for the love of god post it.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:46 AM   #40
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Huh. Same problem I'm fighting.

If someone offered me a good 2-piece that would work with my 4L80, I bet they'd make a sale.

We can make one for you in a few days if you like. we had come up with this design for the SRT8 guys using a CV in the center. its bit more forgiving on the angles. As a matter of fact i can make one with CV's thru out the shaft and would not need any angle correction. it would be a bit expensive and heavy but I'm my opinion if you have a single shaft and use the rules show above it will work, no magic just understanding.





We are also working with a new design that would allow for a CV 2 piece Carbon shaft. its being tested on an Evo 8 right now.



for the others the pinion is a Giubo and the absolute best angle is none-Zero if any of you have taken off the Giubo you will know there is a pin on one side and sort of pilot bushing on the other. if there is an angle the pin will bind into the pilot part and at the same time the 3 fingers on one shaft will push while the 3 fingers on the other side pull giving the shaft a pulsing vibration. The pilot part is a high durometer plastic with a rubber insulator, if the car has been run for some time with the angles out the pilot will wear out. to check this you would pull all 6 bolts off the Giubo and see if the shaft can move up and down. When we balance this type of shaft in either of our balancers we have check to make sure all angles are ZERO of the shaft will not balance.

here is a picture of the pilot, its pressed in to the shaft

Last edited by Driveshaft Shop; 11-15-2012 at 02:57 AM.
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Old 11-15-2012, 02:48 AM   #41
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Huh. Same problem I'm fighting.

If someone offered me a good 2-piece that would work with my 4L80, I bet they'd make a sale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konnie the Goat...View Post
There is no 'magic' answer. There never is.

The sinusoidal action of a u-joint is self-cancelling in a paired system. in other words, one joint is always equal and opposite of the other. or should be.



red lines are the pinion and trans. black is the propshaft. to not lock up, you need .5* per joint. run a ujoint at zero, it will fail. but let us not worry about that. you'll have that .5 beat. So we need to focus on the split. yove ogt a front joint and a rear joint. In order for them to cancel, the angles must be close. Ideally, zero. SO if the pinion is at 5* up, and the Trans is at 5* up, you have zero angle differnece between the joints on the shaft. the pinion axis is parallel to the Trans axis. Basic geometry takes over. a straight line between them will intersect both lines at equal angles. Savy?

Zero is the goal, that is full cancel. 1* is 'ok' on a street car, but will probably NVH the shit out of you at extra-legal speeds. you get it under .5* split, you can run pretty fast with no shake on a quality shaft.

Measure with a magnetic angle gauge off both joint yokes. Jegs, summit, speedway all stock these. Park the car level, full weight on the wheels, and measure. Then shim.

Checking side angle is a bit trickier. you need to measure from known points and trig that shit out. Do a cradle align first. This is a GM car. GM, almost invariably, tilts the motor down in the back to get the .5 minimum angle into the system. So unless youve really gone in there and changed things (and we all have), that should be ok. But if youve taken the diff out, changed the motor or trans or mounts for anything, you didnt check the angle. of the million things going on, that never crossed your mind, and that is ok.

A 2 pc shaft 'solves' this by splitting the angle in half. Traditionally, 2 pc shafts were used in long trucks and limos where a 1pc wasnt structurally sound due to length. They go in cars today to cover up shoddy workmanship in the factory. They dont need the critical speed gains. They justify the complexity and added mass by assembling the car quicker. Every joint eats power, and a 2pc shaft generally weighs more than a comparable 1pc of the same material. You have an added center bearing (and hardware) as well as the tube connections for that new joint needing more heft to support said joint.

Still, a 2pc is a fine solution. To me, in this application, it is just lazy. blueprint the motor, cnc port heads, degree cams, built trans, all this effort expended. Then it comes time to move the power to the rear, and all the 'effort' steps there seem to get ignored. I find it shocking.

3 years Ive been harping on this. Probably more, but my first post in this thread was 3 years ago. This is like the wheel shake thread. I give the info, get nothing back. No magic answer. Crawl your monkey ass under the car and measure the mothersmurfing angles. Thats step 1.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/upi-3007 $10. get some steel bar thats square to use for spacers if you cant take the joint out. get me some smurfing angles, I'll tell you what to do from there.

Or, put the shit on a trailer to BFE IL. $79/hr for me to use a $10 tool. I love my job.

I've been pondering a topic for a new video. Maybe next slow day I have I'll shoot video of me measuring the angles on my 1990 chevy's propshaft. GTO is done for the year, but it really is all the same shit. I'm trying to hide my frustration, because I don't want to seem dickish while trying to help. Perhaps showing the procedure will clear up the confusion. I sure dont seem to be able to convert this into lay speak well.

Frank got it though. Even gave it his stamp of approval. Thanks, Frank. Always makes a guy feel good to get a compliment from a Master.

Dont worry about what the angles should be before you know what they are. Doric's 4L80 is likely to be different than my T56. Thats's fine, we can work with that.

Frank- many moons ago Dana corp put out a training video on u-joints and their self cancelling action. they have a short prop shaft set up, hooked to a motor. Old video. real old. Can't find it. If you can, for the love of god post it.

to better help understad the lay out for 2 shafts this may help

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Old 11-16-2012, 04:43 AM   #42
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Huh. Same problem I'm fighting.

If someone offered me a good 2-piece that would work with my 4L80, I bet they'd make a sale.

Weve sold several of those and its no problem to get done .I could take care of it or DSS
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:37 AM   #43
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Still cant find the Dana video I mentioned earlier, but at about the 4 minute mark of this video they show how a normal u-joint accelerates and decelerates. They only show one joint though. a pair of joints at equal angles would cancel out.

Frank, how much for a shaft with Thompson couplings? Mikey likes.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:39 AM   #44
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We can make one for you in a few days if you like. we had come up with this design for the SRT8 guys using a CV in the center. its bit more forgiving on the angles.

Thanks, Frank. I'll have to consider it. The thing that weighs heavily on my mind right now is the hundreds of dollars I have invested in the shaft I have now - and as you can probably imagine, there won't be a lot of demand if I try to resell it.

It's winter, snow is coming to CO, and I have the luxury of putting it out of mind for awhile longer.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:05 AM   #45
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Im always looking to find solutions to problems on cars, do you have a problem with the shaft thats in it ? i may be willing to give it to you for test purposes.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:06 AM   #46
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgQgm3GwaFs

Still cant find the Dana video I mentioned earlier, but at about the 4 minute mark of this video they show how a normal u-joint accelerates and decelerates. They only show one joint though. a pair of joints at equal angles would cancel out.

Frank, how much for a shaft with Thompson couplings? Mikey likes.

you know these never really came to be used that much. its a great idea but im not sure it technology has been proven yet.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:13 PM   #47
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you know these never really came to be used that much. its a great idea but im not sure it technology has been proven yet.

Obviously one cant use them for a FWD inner or RWD axle, no plunge. but since a propshaft is going to use a slip yoke anyway...

Maybe the physical size of the joint for a given rating is too large for automotive applications?
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:20 PM   #48
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Im always looking to find solutions to problems on cars, do you have a problem with the shaft thats in it ? i may be willing to give it to you for test purposes.

The shaft that's in it has been balanced and trued by a local shop, but the problem has persisted.

What I'm really looking for is a shop that will work on the car itself with the shaft in it, but thus far, I've come up pretty well dry.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:09 PM   #49
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im game if you want to try one of the 2 piece with the center CV's shoot me a PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:07 AM   #50
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Rather serendipitous that I have a vehicle (non-GTO) in the shop right now with a horribly fubar'd driveshaft setup. So bad I can't correct it, but it will make a great demonstrator of the Issues Frank and I have been discussing here. I should have it up by this weekend, and I'll link to it here.

Frank, I think you'll be amused (in a tragic way) by the level of fail. It's bad. Real bad.

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454605

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Old 12-01-2012, 08:07 AM   #51
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Driveshaft shop, I sent you a PM
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Old 12-01-2012, 09:01 AM   #52
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Pinion angle will be different with a one piece or two piece driveshaft. What is a good angle for a daily driver one piece or two piece? If you put an adapter on the pinion flange, where is the angle measurement taken from?
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:20 PM   #53
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Pinion angle will be different with a one piece or two piece driveshaft. What is a good angle for a daily driver one piece or two piece? If you put an adapter on the pinion flange, where is the angle measurement taken from?

.5*-3* is the angle. This is going to vary from car to car. but lower is better. Since the car has giubos stock the angle is going to be very low, right about that .5* figure.

when measuring the angles, anything known to be parallel to the axis you are measuring is fine. So on the diff side, the flange, yoke, adapter and a u-joint end cup in a yoke are all valid choices because we are measuring an imaginary line coming out of the center of the pinion. just as at the trans end we are measuring a line coming from the center of the trans output shaft.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:00 PM   #54
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i have built 2 replacement shafts for guys with carbon fiber 1 piece shafts,they got tired of the vibration.

What vibration? My CF one piece is way smoother than the crap two piece stocker.

I remember seeing lots of adapter issues a few years ago right here on this forum.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:04 PM   #55
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So, setting up and working on the suspension of this car is no different than race cars I've owned / built in the past. After reading the posts on this site, I thought only Harry Potter could work on my car.
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:09 PM   #56
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So, setting up and working on the suspension of this car is no different than race cars I've owned / built in the past. After reading the posts on this site, I thought only Harry Potter could work on my car.

yeah, its really no different. I hate that certain folks have created this notion that it is.
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