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Old 11-29-2012, 08:26 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuhThugga...View Post
How far are you from Quakertown?

I live up by that area and work at the Lehigh Valley Mall...

Welcome to banjo country.
You are right around the corner from some really good roads once you get up and running again.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:09 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by mchicia1...View Post
About an hour. I appreciate the offer though . I am really only working on it on weekends anyway. I refuse to get under the car in the dark outside and alone when it is 29 degrees. I don't mind working in the engine bay in the dark though. So the plan is to get the tranny and motor back up into the car next weekend. Then I can work on the accessories after work during the week with my spotlight. This thing should be running again before XMAS. All I want for XMAS is some smurfing luck with this build. Is that too much to ask????

From my experience. . . yes, that is asking WAY too much! But good to know it's finally coming together again Looking forward to hearing how it runs!
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:13 AM   #153
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Thanks man. If the block is determined to be a good build this time, I am going to spend a week detailing it, then I am going to cover it and never drive it again. That's the only way to not break LOL. I am so tired of turning wrenches. I need at least a year off.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:07 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by 87LC2...View Post
Welcome to banjo country.
You are right around the corner from some really good roads once you get up and running again.

Heh, that is a pretty tall order to fill.

I am accustomed to great roads in the hills of Hockessin.
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Squeezing another 50 rwhp out of one of those setups would be like trying to squeeze the sarcasm out of MuhThugga. . . . . . . . not gonna happen

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Old 11-29-2012, 04:52 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by mchicia1...View Post
Stopped over there today.

The block is prepped and ready to be assembled, just waiting on rings and a line bore for the main studs I am putting in now.

The culprit of the scored cylinder walls was from the oil rings shattering. I guess there wasn't enough gap and they butted together. The weird thing is Wiseco says right in their documentation that you don't have to gap the oil rings, you can just put them in. Maybe it is not the machine shops fault after all?

There's never an excuse for not checking the ring gap, even on the oil rings. It its still 100% the shops fault because they installed the parts.

Secondly, oil rings will not shatter, they will bend and twist into magnificent shapes, but they will not shatter. The second ring is a different story as it's only cast iron. If they tried to install those very thin Napier rings without the proper ring compressor, or caught one on the lip of the bore, it's very possible that they broke one when shoving the piston in.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:12 PM   #156
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I've never seen a gap spec for the oil control rings. It's a three piece design that doesn't lend it self to end gap filing very well.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:22 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by 87LC2...View Post
I've never seen a gap spec for the oil control rings. It's a three piece design that doesn't lend it self to end gap filing very well.

I've never not seen a specification for oil control ring gaps contained in the ring manufacturers literature or published by the OEM. Regardless, the omission of a specification does not mean that it does not need to be checked, that's the difference between an engine builder who has the ability to take a pile of parts from different manufacturers and machine them to fit properly vs. an engine assembler that just throws the parts together and hopes for the best....a monkey or a five year old could be trained to do the latter.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:25 PM   #158
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This has been a very interesting a sad thread. I completely sympathize with the painfulness of all this. Having a 'built' engine fail kinda destroys your confidence doesn't it? I had a forged motor prematurely fail a year ago and the last thing I wanted to do was fork over $5k only to have the same thing happen again - especially if the cause was unknown.

I went the 5.3L route for this exact reason (and to have a low risk engine with which to learn up on engine assembly). I won't be too devastated if it blows up - though it will suck if I have to pull the motor again.

It is a shame to have a lot of high $$$ parts and then feel like you have to treat the car like a baby so you don't break something. It's a cruel hobby...

Quote:
Originally Posted by machinistone...View Post
I've never not seen a specification for oil control ring gaps contained in the ring manufacturers literature or published by the OEM. Regardless, the omission of a specification does not mean that it does not need to be checked, that's the difference between an engine builder who has the ability to take a pile of parts from different manufacturers and machine them to fit properly vs. an engine assembler that just throws the parts together and hopes for the best....a monkey or a five year old could be trained to do the latter.

It's ironic as I was just gapping the rings for the 5.3 last weekend. Lots of information out there on the top ring gap. Lots of information on the 2nd ring gap. Absolutely ZERO information on the oil ring gap. Both LS assembly books I have make no mention of it. The ring manufacturer also made no mention of it. It didn't help that there were no performance ring choices for a stock 5.3 piston. I checked the rings for the heck of it, and there was essentially 0 gap which seemed odd. I just assumed this was the way it was supposed to be. As someone else mentioned, 3 piece oil rings are not exactly conducive to gapping.

I was about to install them like this during the upcoming weekend. Based on the outcome of this thread however, I might reconsider.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:09 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by FSAE_Junkie...View Post
This has been a very interesting a sad thread. I completely sympathize with the painfulness of all this. Having a 'built' engine fail kinda destroys your confidence doesn't it? I had a forged motor prematurely fail a year ago and the last thing I wanted to do was fork over $5k only to have the same thing happen again - especially if the cause was unknown.

I went the 5.3L route for this exact reason (and to have a low risk engine with which to learn up on engine assembly). I won't be too devastated if it blows up - though it will suck if I have to pull the motor again.

It is a shame to have a lot of high $$$ parts and then feel like you have to treat the car like a baby so you don't break something. It's a cruel hobby...



It's ironic as I was just gapping the rings for the 5.3 last weekend. Lots of information out there on the top ring gap. Lots of information on the 2nd ring gap. Absolutely ZERO information on the oil ring gap. Both LS assembly books I have make no mention of it. The ring manufacturer also made no mention of it. It didn't help that there were no performance ring choices for a stock 5.3 piston. I checked the rings for the heck of it, and there was essentially 0 gap which seemed odd. I just assumed this was the way it was supposed to be. As someone else mentioned, 3 piece oil rings are not exactly conducive to gapping.

I was about to install them like this during the upcoming weekend. Based on the outcome of this thread however, I might reconsider.

Odd.

My engine specification software takes it's information directly from the OEM's, and I cannot remember a single time when the oil control ring gap was not specified. Same goes for aftermarket pistons, I have some Wiseco pistons with the GFX ring pack and the paperwork states oil control ring minimum gap, same goes for the JE Proseal rings that I have for another job, minimum gap is stated on the paperwork.

JE: http://www.jepistons.com/PDFs/TechCo...instrc4032.pdf
Manley: http://www.manleyperformance.com/dl/...ston-rings.pdf

Total Seal: http://www.totalseal.com/TechPage.as...plessPistRings

CP: http://ipgparts.com/blog/wp-content/...SpecSheet2.png

I could take pictures and post the same charts for Wiseco rings whether they're the standard moly made by Hastings, or the GFX made by Nippon, same goes for Icon, Mahle, or any of the other piston companies.

Again, regardless of whether or not they had a specification, anyone (well obviously not everyone) who has built any performance motors knows where the ring gaps should be approximately and never just decides to not check it because he doesn't have a number to compare to. To check oil control rings you need to bunch up half the set together and put them in the bore at one time to give them rigidity. You line up the gaps as best possible, then use a feeler gauge to line them up exactly. On the rare occasion that you need to adjust oil control ring gaps a piston ring filer is often way too course, I use our diamond wheel sharpener that is intended for sharpening carbide seat cutting inserts.

Last edited by machinistone; 11-29-2012 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 02:48 AM   #160
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There was no mention of gapping oil control rings in any of those instructions, only a minimum gap of 0.015" from all manufactures. You obviously don't want ring end gaps to butt, but there was never any mention of correcting the gap like there is with the first and second rings.

They mention gapping the rings in the bore they will be used in, as a bore difference of 0.001" will change gap by 0.003". If you bunch up half of the oil rings and gap them in one bore, you are not gapping them properly to each individual bore.

I still stand by my statement that there is no "gapping" of oil control rings. You can verify they have a minimum end gap, but there generally isn't a need like with the top two ring packs. I'm not saying it can't be done, or doing it is wrong, it's just something that isn't normally done. The gap isn't as critical as with the top two rings, and heat expansion is less as the oil ring is further down the skirt. The oil rings don't seal compression, they only scrape and drain the excess oil from the cylinder walls.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:59 AM   #161
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Sounds like they must have shattered the rings when the put them in then. The only thing is the motor was perfectly fine for the first 200 miles with no smoke.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:00 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSAE_Junkie...View Post
This has been a very interesting a sad thread. I completely sympathize with the painfulness of all this. Having a 'built' engine fail kinda destroys your confidence doesn't it? I had a forged motor prematurely fail a year ago and the last thing I wanted to do was fork over $5k only to have the same thing happen again - especially if the cause was unknown.

I went the 5.3L route for this exact reason (and to have a low risk engine with which to learn up on engine assembly). I won't be too devastated if it blows up - though it will suck if I have to pull the motor again.

It is a shame to have a lot of high $$$ parts and then feel like you have to treat the car like a baby so you don't break something. It's a cruel hobby...



It's ironic as I was just gapping the rings for the 5.3 last weekend. Lots of information out there on the top ring gap. Lots of information on the 2nd ring gap. Absolutely ZERO information on the oil ring gap. Both LS assembly books I have make no mention of it. The ring manufacturer also made no mention of it. It didn't help that there were no performance ring choices for a stock 5.3 piston. I checked the rings for the heck of it, and there was essentially 0 gap which seemed odd. I just assumed this was the way it was supposed to be. As someone else mentioned, 3 piece oil rings are not exactly conducive to gapping.

I was about to install them like this during the upcoming weekend. Based on the outcome of this thread however, I might reconsider.

Yes, in hindsight I wish I had just done a stock 5.7L rebuild. I could have paid about $400 for the machine work and assembled the motor myself to learn something or two.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:03 AM   #163
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If the rings broke on installation, would I know it when I got the block back from assembly?
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:32 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by 87LC2...View Post
There was no mention of gapping oil control rings in any of those instructions, only a minimum gap of 0.015" from all manufactures. You obviously don't want ring end gaps to butt, but there was never any mention of correcting the gap like there is with the first and second rings.

They give you a minimum specification, that means you are expected to check it, as I said, any builder worth his salt is going to check everything, and leave nothing to chance....again, the difference between a garage assembler, and an engine builder is the ability to make proper and precise corrections to parts in order to put them within specification. So you tell me, since you're so adamant that there is no "gapping" of those rings, then what do you do if they're out of spec?

Quote:
They mention gapping the rings in the bore they will be used in, as a bore difference of 0.001" will change gap by 0.003". If you bunch up half of the oil rings and gap them in one bore, you are not gapping them properly to each individual bore.

If someone is honing cylinders with a spread of .001" you need to find a new machinist, mine never go over .0002" spread from top to bottom and O/R...regardless, as you already pointed out, gapping oil control rings is not that important - you just need to make sure they're open more than the minimum spec which is exactly what you're doing when you group them together in order to get an accurate measurement.

Quote:
I still stand by my statement that there is no "gapping" of oil control rings. You can verify they have a minimum end gap, but there generally isn't a need like with the top two ring packs. I'm not saying it can't be done, or doing it is wrong, it's just something that isn't normally done. The gap isn't as critical as with the top two rings, and heat expansion is less as the oil ring is further down the skirt. The oil rings don't seal compression, they only scrape and drain the excess oil from the cylinder walls.

Uh, is that any different than what I said? Yes, in 95% of cases you will not need to adjust the oil control ring end gap....BUT, that does not mean that you can just skip the step of checking it, there is a minimum specification for a reason.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:03 AM   #165
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Ok I get it, my machinist sucks. We can stop with that now. The bottom line is I could have either gone to another machinist and lost my $1800 or give him a chance to fix it for free. Anyone would have given him the chance.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:13 AM   #166
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Lol Wiseco won't have replacement rings until January 9th. Unbelievable. Good thing I refreshed my beater's suspension and brakes.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:20 AM   #167
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Scratching Wiseco off my shopping list.
Here's hoping they don't send you the wrong rings.....


















.....for the third time.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:39 AM   #168
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Seriously, wtf is up with Wiseco? Such a good reputation online. They seem like amateurs. I also got word they "wiped their stock clear of the bad 3905GFX rings" whatever that means. It made me skeptical for sure. Maybe my rings WERE bad the whole time and had a defect in them?
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:51 AM   #169
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Part number looks like a Ls1 bore size ring set.

3.905" maybe?
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:57 AM   #170
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Yes, 3.905". I would rather wait for the correct rings rather than going with a set that "may work". Some used Total Seal with their Wiseco pistons, but I read some mixed reviews about Total Seal.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:31 AM   #171
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Wiseco probably gets their rings from Total Seal, re-labeled
I can guarantee they don't make them in house

If it's a 1.5/1.5/3.0 ring pack there should be many options on the shelf. I'd go for a napier 2nd ring
Or just wait until next year
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:31 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A_VAS...View Post
Wiseco probably gets their rings from Total Seal, re-labeled
I can guarantee they don't make them in house

If it's a 1.5/1.5/3.0 ring pack there should be many options on the shelf. I'd go for a napier 2nd ring
Or just wait until next year

Nope not made by total seal. Total seal doesn't make any steel top ring packs in 3.905" bore size, I already checked.
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Old 12-07-2012, 05:47 AM   #173
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I hate this hobby
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:23 AM   #174
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CS7984 steel top ring, std bore, +005 and +015 sizes listed. Napier 2nd can be ordered too. You may want to call them directly
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:49 AM   #175
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My pistons are +.007, maybe it is an odd size.
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Old 12-07-2012, 02:29 PM   #176
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The steel toP ring is made by Nippon piston ring in Japan.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:23 PM   #177
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Question. Did your machinest/did you oil the bores and rings before you finished the install or were they fired dry?
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:44 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Cwarta...View Post
Question. Did your machinest/did you oil the bores and rings before you finished the install or were they fired dry?

I didn't do anything, I just installed it and fired it.


I just got my motor back today. No charge to me and I also added main studs at the same time which added extra labor for the line hone.

I will be dropping it in the cradle this weekend.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:40 PM   #179
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Anyone have any tips before I start assembling tomorrow? Motor is together minus accessories. Should I put oil on the cylinder walls and turn the motor over a bit by hand?
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:04 PM   #180
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Anyone have any tips before I start assembling tomorrow? Motor is together minus accessories. Should I put oil on the cylinder walls and turn the motor over a bit by hand?

No, excess oil in the ring pack can lead to seating problems.
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