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Old 12-02-2012, 01:28 PM   #91
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The current pad that I am running has a very progressive bite to it. It starts off pretty weak and gets stronger progressively, rather than uniformly as I have felt in the past with the StopTechs. The nice thing with that is that they are not touchy. Also it allows the brake pedal to sink in deeper and align with the gas pedal under heavy breaking for relatively easy heel/toeing. However the pas is strictly for street so I doubt it would last on high speed tracks. I think you may have to find a less aggressive pad to get what you want since everything else is a constant and not much you can do about it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:14 AM   #92
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:46 PM   #93
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:08 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havoc...View Post
Based on what you're describing and the modifications made (Larger rotor >greater torque arm leverage = less pedal effort. larger caliper >increased piston area, greater clamping force = less pedal effort) it sounds like a larger master is in order.

A bigger master cylinder would create less pressure, and therefore require higher pedal effort making the system easier to modulate… of course I have no clue what the ABS system would make of all those changes. This is why BBK manufactures keep piston surface area near stock or reduce it in the case of adding larger rotors; that keeps pedal effort, travel and balance near stock levels without the need to monkey around with master cylinders…

But the band aid solution is as you suggested, less aggressive pads; though that doesn’t cure pedal feel or travel.


yup^ Miker is the pedal effort too low?

Also, how's the brake balance? How are the rears doing when you lock the fronts?

Last edited by MTung; 12-06-2012 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:17 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTung...View Post
yup^ Miker is the pedal effort too low?

Also, how's the brake balance? How are the rears doing when you lock the fronts?

Pedal effort might be to low.

Rear don't lock up. Bias is definitely front heavy.
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:24 PM   #96
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^^ rears should never lock up by design
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:17 AM   #97
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Ive had my rears induce ABS on a really hard braking event with warm ET streets out back on a couple occasions. Thought that was weird at the time, but maybe a combo of no tow/tank brace and a low tank of fuel?
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:45 AM   #98
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^^ rears should never lock up by design

Maybe. I think if they tuned the system correctly from the factory the rears should go into slip. Otherwise you're giving up stopping distance since you're not utilizing the rears.

Miker, def keep us updated on what you do. I'd be interested in doing this once you figure out all the quirks. If you're looking at different master cylinders, maybe try to find out the brake distribution and knee point. Otherwise are you going to upgrade the rear calipers too?
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:44 PM   #99
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So 30minutes into the event my rear pads were metal on metal. They were almost new, and I never used to wear rear pads. It has to be a bias or ABS issue but these calipers do not play well with the OEM rear.

Fronts only had slight fade after epic abuse, 130 down to 80; then 120 down to 30 like 15 seconds later; doing around a 1min lap. It was the east course at CMP.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:50 PM   #100
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That would suggest a rear bias. Which doing the Brembo front should make it more front bias I'd think. Possible that you're just using the fronts so much harder that the rears are starting to show weakness?

Just throwing ideas out. I'm way too drunk to think about this shit... :lolz:
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:56 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiksilver...View Post
That would suggest a rear bias. Which doing the Brembo front should make it more front bias I'd think. Possible that you're just using the fronts so much harder that the rears are starting to show weakness?

Just throwing ideas out. I'm way too drunk to think about this shit... :lolz:

My thinking is maybe less piston area in the front is putting more bias to the rear? I was also abusing the brakes way harder then I used to. The fronts bite so much hard it feels like it is a front bias but more pressure is going to the rear.

Last edited by miker; 12-08-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:06 PM   #102
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I converted to rear CTSV brakes about 2 or 3 months ago to match my fronts. I have yet to put them through the same testing you have but I am damn interested now to know what the wear will be like.
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:52 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTung...View Post
Maybe. I think if they tuned the system correctly from the factory the rears should go into slip. Otherwise you're giving up stopping distance since you're not utilizing the rears.

Miker, def keep us updated on what you do. I'd be interested in doing this once you figure out all the quirks. If you're looking at different master cylinders, maybe try to find out the brake distribution and knee point. Otherwise are you going to upgrade the rear calipers too?

Find the braking effort required to lock the front tires, then try to make the bias to rear so that the rear tires lock /w 10% more pedal application than the fronts. Maximizes control and still has all 4 tires working at either 100% or 90% stopping capacity. You need to factor in the added rear brake force from engine braking too though, or the rears will lock before the fronts at higher RPMs under no throttle, causing a lot of fish tailing.

The rears being gone likely has to do with the fact that you just upped the rear braking force a lot in comparison to the fronts. They're doing a lot of the work that the front brakes used to do, killing their lifespan

Last edited by HunterKiller89; 12-08-2012 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:20 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by miker...View Post
So 30minutes into the event my rear pads were metal on metal. They were almost new, and I never used to wear rear pads. It has to be a bias or ABS issue but these calipers do not play well with the OEM rear.

Fronts only had slight fade after epic abuse, 130 down to 80; then 120 down to 30 like 15 seconds later; doing around a 1min lap. It was the east course at CMP.

Two questions? 1) Are you saying you did this same event with the old brake setup and never experienced this sort of rear wear?

2) Did the ABS engage often with the new setup?
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:22 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havoc...View Post
Two questions? 1) Are you saying you did this same event with the old brake setup and never experienced this sort of rear wear?

2) Did the ABS engage often with the new setup?

I was running the identical rear setup I used to run when I had the stock 05-06 fronts; I used to see next to no wear on the rear pads.

ABS was engaging the same as it used to.
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Old 12-08-2012, 05:26 PM   #106
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:01 PM   #107
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Miker if you have the ability to get some brackets made, are willing to run a longer wheel stud and use a 3mm spacer I can help you out with a ctsv rear setup if you choose to go that route. I have have to admit it would be nice to see them tested hard. PM me if interested.
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:16 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choicesmade24...View Post
Miker if you have the ability to get some brackets made, are willing to run a longer wheel stud and use a 3mm spacer I can help you out with a ctsv rear setup if you choose to go that route. I have have to admit it would be nice to see them tested hard. PM me if interested.

I already run ARP studs, the spacer doesn't both me except I don't have 3mm of spare room to move the tire out as low as I am.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:53 AM   #109
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:48 AM   #110
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My thinking is maybe less piston area in the front is putting more bias to the rear? I was also abusing the brakes way harder then I used to. The fronts bite so much hard it feels like it is a front bias but more pressure is going to the rear.

Where did you get the idea there's now less piston area in the front? You have more area AND larger rotors to boot. Both of which add up to more front bias.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miker...View Post
I was running the identical rear setup I used to run when I had the stock 05-06 fronts; I used to see next to no wear on the rear pads.

ABS was engaging the same as it used to.

Well you already said, “20% pedal gets ABS to engage; I pulled the ABS fuse and any time I got into the brakes at all they locked up.”
So the ABS can’t be engaging exactly as it did with the 05/06 brakes.

Assuming the rest of the system is functioning properly, my guess is this: The greater initial bite you feel is just fool’s gold and doesn't necessarily equate to better overall braking. The problem with using the wrong caliper/rotor combo is an overactive ABS system, and when it’s activated the braking is no longer as effective as it was prior to activation. So despite the greater initial bite the overall front braking effectiveness (once the ABS kicks in) is likely less than the old 05/06 brakes, hence the rear brakes are now being overworked.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:04 AM   #111
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Where did you get the idea there's now less piston area in the front? You have more area AND larger rotors to boot. Both of which add up to more front bias.

Well you already said, ď20% pedal gets ABS to engage; I pulled the ABS fuse and any time I got into the brakes at all they locked up.Ē
So the ABS canít be engaging exactly as it did with the 05/06 brakes.

Assuming the rest of the system is functioning properly, my guess is this: The greater initial bite you feel is just foolís gold and doesn't necessarily equate to better overall braking. The problem with using the wrong caliper/rotor combo is an overactive ABS system, and when itís activated the braking is no longer as effective as it was prior to activation. So despite the greater initial bite the overall front braking effectiveness (once the ABS kicks in) is likely less than the old 05/06 brakes, hence the rear brakes are now being overworked.

Correct, more front piston area will behave exactly like Miker is describing. The greater piston area in front is causing the pistons in the rear too way overwork. The only way to combat this is to increase piston area in the rear, or decrease it up front. This is why I have refused to run the CTS-V setup unless both front and rear calipers are being utilized, or a proportioning valve is installed on the rear line. This will help balance the system, and is really the only way to do this "kinda right". The area increase is going to make the pedal ever more touchy however.
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:13 AM   #112
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Old 12-10-2012, 11:20 AM   #113
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Like I said before, my brakes act nothing like Mikers. It would be nice if others with the Brembos would chime in. I can't imagine pads alone making such a huge difference.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:07 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havoc...View Post
Where did you get the idea there's now less piston area in the front? You have more area AND larger rotors to boot. Both of which add up to more front bias.

Well you already said, ď20% pedal gets ABS to engage; I pulled the ABS fuse and any time I got into the brakes at all they locked up.Ē
So the ABS canít be engaging exactly as it did with the 05/06 brakes.

That was due to a rotor with .07 runout. Abs started calming down with a true rotor.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:15 PM   #115
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Going from a 2 piston floating caliper to 4 piston non-floating you only count the pistons on one side.

Going into turn 8 I was going 10mph faster then I was on the stock motor/brakes yet braking 100ft later. I could have went in deeper but I'm not a fan of finding the limit on a road course.

Ill be putting the rear CTS-v brakes on as soon as possible.
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:48 PM   #116
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^^ ??
I can't see how that makes sense
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:12 PM   #117
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I can, remember everything is a balance.

Stock the rears barely do anything. Now they do too much but that was better then before.

That's whats cool about miker doing the testing.

Dialing it in and fine tuning is what it's all about now. The old fox body guys made the same mistake over and over replacing the stock calipers with 73MM SVO units.

The rear drums would then do too much of the braking causing longer stopping distance.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:22 PM   #118
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i meant the fixed vs floating part. I don't see how that makes sense? Even if one side is fixed, the pressure from the pistons will still be equal on both sides, but the displacement is not. While the displacement only happens on one side, wouldn't it be displaced by 2x the distance for the save given pedal effort/fluid displacement? effectively evening out?
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:14 PM   #119
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Going from a 2 piston floating caliper to 4 piston non-floating you only count the pistons on one side.

Going into turn 8 I was going 10mph faster then I was on the stock motor/brakes yet braking 100ft later. I could have went in deeper but I'm not a fan of finding the limit on a road course.

Ill be putting the rear CTS-v brakes on as soon as possible.

That's not true, but even if it were the CTS-V @40/44 would still have more piston surface area than the stockers @ 40/40mm.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:58 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Havoc...View Post
That's not true, but even if it were the CTS-V @40/44 would still have more piston surface area than the stockers @ 40/40mm.

A floating caliper with two 40mm pistons, vs non-floating with four 40mm pistons will have the same clamping force at a given pressure.
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