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Old 08-30-2012, 06:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by 04 LS1 GTO M6...View Post
Whole lotta misinformation. Almost every system my company produces has a Helmholtz in it and I can personally attest to the 2011-2014 Mustangs and the 2015 Mustang which are my programs.

We don't just throw a resonator in, we tune both the resonators and mufflers to work in sync. The resonators are mainly used for an expansion chamber to help reduce rasp while the mufflers are more tuned for subjective and objective sound. Baffles alone also do not cancel drone, cut open a stock muffler some time and I'll bet that you'll never see one without tubes and just baffles.

All mufflers are tuned for specific reasons, sound, volume and characteristics. That's what is meant by proper muffler selection.

Drone cannot be phased out by a simple one size fits all calculation, its different for every vehicle.

Given that this site is primarily about ONE vehicle, although morphing from stock (new folks like myself) and those that are subjectively far away from the normal (altered heads, FI, catless, etc), I submit the following.

Since you get paid to do this very research, I would be very much interested in a thread from you on what -doesnt- drone/rasp on a GTO.

Let the newbs debate the 'want it louder' aspect - If we all wanted that, it's just a hacksaw away.

Being completely serious - If your expertise uncovers these facts empirically , why not share with your bretheren here?

Your insight might prove worth its weigh in gold.

Last edited by Logan71; 08-30-2012 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 08-31-2012, 03:09 AM   #32
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The formula I posted above has been working wonders for people on mustang forums, Titan forums, G8 forums, performancetrucks.net.

The more searching I do and the various forums in which this formula applies to and how successful it has been, makes me think this WILL work for outs given the right pipe length. I haven't come across a forum/discussion about a 1/4 wave tube on a single exhaust setup.

Seems the Honda S2000 comes stock with one of these tubes
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:09 AM   #33
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I considered this when I bought a 2nd Mustang, and it had Flowmaster 40s. Horrible drone around 1800 RPM, your head would resonate if the windows were up. Read some forums, moved to Magnaflows, no drone at all. 40s only use internal baffles and had much larger volume.
Just bought an 04 GTO,had full SLP Loudmouth system (with resonators- yeah, well-named!). Ungodly drone/resosnance in 2 ranges, just off idle and just under 2000 rpm. Muffler shop put on an additional 2 inlet X-over Magnaflow in the 05-06 location, it reduced the off-idle ( only reduced) and didn't affect the 2000 spot at all. $400 up in smoke.
I removed the resonators, which helped somewhat with both drone ranges, and greatly decreased overall sound level (yay! I'm almost 50, I like the sound of a system, not the loudness)
Forum search showed that stock exhaust wasn't really a limiting factor like it is in a Mustang ( hey, 4.6 needs all the help it can get), so I l found a stock exhaust for sale, put on the stock catback section (Loudmouth has mid-tube headers and hi-flow cats) and the drone is gone completely, with a great rumble.
The OP is on a good idea, I just don't think it will be a revolution unless you can do your own welding, since the calcs and fine-tuning could run up quite a bill at an exhaust shop.
Considering that the rear-mounted Magnaflow and the stock location mufflers ( also Mags I believe) have the same volume, placement of the OEM mufflers in the middle of the long run of pipe certainly had an enormous effect on resonance.
Adding the additional pipe volume as he states makes great sense, but I think trial and error will produce a very usable location/length for a GTO, and the calcs may get you in the ball park on another body style...but...I think most owners accept the drone or move on from their car obsession, so I can't see the exhaust manufacturers really caring. It would have been expensive for me to try to do as he's doing, and there are other things about the Goat that I love (torque, IRS, auto, seats, etc), and things that I want to improve (traction, braking, fix understeer), that the stock mufflers were an easy, known fix. I can destroy the tires as is, more power really isn't my priority until the other aspects are able to deal with it.
Great stuff OP
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:32 AM   #34
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Well I'm planning to redo my exhaust like the Corsa Sport in 3" anyways and buying some 45's, 90's etc and having a shop cut/weld it up. I have an appt. Tuesday night at the shop to get a quote.

Once that is done I will look at my spacing/room allowed and add the j pipe. Adding the j pipe would take just as long and as much money as it would cost to cut and re-weld in some different mufflers like alot of people have done. So there is no more increased cost or hassle.

My reasoning is since nissan titnans to 350Z to mustang to sport truck owners all have used the same forumla/theory and it has reportedly worked...I don't see how a GTO would differ.
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:41 AM   #35
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note..

sometimes mister mike thinks too much and become a bit assholish, you have to take him with a grain of salt he's busted my balls on a couple of occasions...
second i had a drone at about 2000 rpm in one of my other cars, i fixed it the easy way, i drove faster..
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:52 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgyair...View Post
note..

sometimes mister mike thinks too much and become a bit assholish, you have to take him with a grain of salt he's busted my balls on a couple of occasions...
second i had a drone at about 2000 rpm in one of my other cars, i fixed it the easy way, i drove faster..

I find him funny and knowledgeable. This site wouldn't be the same without him.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:22 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgyair...View Post
note..

sometimes mister mike thinks too much and become a bit assholish, you have to take him with a grain of salt he's busted my balls on a couple of occasions...
second i had a drone at about 2000 rpm in one of my other cars, i fixed it the easy way, i drove faster..

I understand, and I'm not worked up about it. I have figured out his forum "personality" and being that way. I can see he knows his stuff and I am open to be taught something by anyone here. Knowing what he knows, I would get aggrivated with every thread being about the "best exhaust".

I think he put it best in a post he made that "the exhaust section is where brain cells go to die" lol

This thread was supposed to break that theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svede1212...View Post
I find him funny and knowledgeable. This site wouldn't be the same without him.

I agree, my wife looks at me funny when I laugh out loud when it is dead silent and I'm on my computer. I just say "oh nothing, just something someone said online".
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Old 08-31-2012, 12:39 PM   #38
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The thing with tuning frequencies of 1/4 wave resonators is that it will not only be temperature dependent, but dependent on where in the system you attach the resonator. My suggestion would be to fabricate a resonator of excess length and leave the end open. Then, allow the pipe to be closed off with a piston or plunger that can be moved to tune the resonator to the desired drone frequency. The equations and RPM will only get you in the ballpark due to the number of variables in play. I would suggest a narrowband spectrum analyzer and a PZM microphone to measure the drone frequency as you tune it out by varying the effective length with the moveable closure. Once that is established, it is a simple matter to cut the pipe to that length, then cap it off.
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Old 08-31-2012, 06:15 PM   #39
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there he goes again...
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Old 09-01-2012, 07:42 AM   #40
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Thanks Mike. I didnt see locarion as a big issue since some mustang guys put them in the midpipes and some put them in the tailpipes. Not comparing to a mustang, but thats just an example of two very different locations.

I agree with the plunger idea. I was thinking to use more of a trombone idea. The resonator pipe will be maybe a foot behind the x pipe in my current dual catback then tune it from there.

Tuesday nigbt I am going to the exhaust shop to get a quote. I will drive on the single 3" and see if it changes the drone rpm. Then head back to get resonator pipe added with trombone/plunger idea. Whatever is easier for the shop to fabricate.

Good news is they are interested in this idea and willing to tackle it since they deal with a good amount of cars whose owners put mufflers ontheir cars that resemble a sound that comes out your rear.

Last edited by smitty2919; 09-01-2012 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:19 AM   #41
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3" is pretty big. The larger the diameter, the longer the pipe will be for a particular frequency. Too small, and it won't attenuate the stop band as well.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:38 AM   #42
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Only reason for the 3" is my dual 3" is overkill on a DD stock car, so to "simplify" the exhaust I was going to single 3". If 3" will make the resonator pipe required to be longer, all the more reason to do like you said about the adjustable part.

I will have it "t" off as far forward ad I can to allow the pipe as much room.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:53 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgyair...View Post

sometimes mister mike thinks too much

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Old 09-03-2012, 05:56 AM   #44
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I ended up downloading a "tone generator" on my Iphone. Since I have a aftermarket head unit with an AUX port, I was able to plug my Iphone into the head unit to play different frequencies.

It will play from 10 to 4000Hz. I calculated my drone at 116Hz. Theory is that I can play the same 116Hz through the speakers and see if my drone goes away. I will get out and do that today. If it is not 116Hz, I will play with the frequencies until I find it.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:36 AM   #45
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That won't work as expected. You can only achieve cancellation using pure sine waves under near-laboratory conditions when the emitters are precisely 1/2 wavelength apart, (148 cm @ 20C for 116 Hz) and are synchronized in phase and have equal amplitude. The exhaust sound is an asynchronous band of noise centered at 116 Hz, quite different from the sine wave coming from the Iphone, and the temperature in the exhaust pipe will differ substantially from ambient conditions for purposes of wavelength calculations. Your best bet without instrumentation is to simply vary the length of the resonator and evaluate the results subjectively.

Last edited by mistermike; 09-03-2012 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:07 AM   #46
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...or speed up...
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:08 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by mistermike...View Post
That won't work as expected. You can only achieve cancellation using pure sine waves under near-laboratory conditions when the emitters are precisely 1/2 wavelength apart, (148 cm @ 20C for 116 Hz) and are synchronized in phase and have equal amplitude. The exhaust sound is an asynchronous band of noise centered at 116 Hz, quite different from the sine wave coming from the Iphone, and the temperature in the exhaust pipe will differ substantially from ambient conditions for purposes of wavelength calculations. Your best bet without instrumentation is to simply vary the length of the resonator and evaluate the results subjectively.

Well if that is the case it will be interesting if the Iphone does ANYTHING. By LOOSE calculation it was 116Hz. Given the non lab environment, maybe it will turn into some other frequency as I scan through them. But like you said, it may do nothing at all.

The "end all" solution would be an adjustable pipe. From there Ill measure it and backtrack the calculation to see what frequency/ rpm I get and see if tbere is something you can do in the equation to compensate?


Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgyair...View Post
...or speed up...

Or I'd like to learn a little something about exhaust in particular exhaust drone and frequencies and what can be done to combat it. Yes, crossover and muffler selection can do this, but enough people experimented over the years that way to come up with the general rules of thumb we use now. Im not going to start some revolution in exhaust experiments, but this seems interesting.


Like I said, I planned on a single 3" anyways. Maybe adding a magnaflow 4"race muffler out back. But until then Ill play with this resonator to see what i can come up with.

Last edited by smitty2919; 09-03-2012 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:06 PM   #48
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hehe, i'm just jacking with ya! i've got a 1.8 mirage i'd like to put an exhaust on, but would actually like to tune OUT the upper fart can range, just give me a nice tone at idle/ off idle
my buddy had an AWESOME exhaust on his 2.8 jetta, but neither of us can remember who made it!
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:41 PM   #49
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So that little drive was interesting. I set my phone at 116.6 Hz (my calculated frequency at 1750 rpm) and right off the bat I can see what MisterMike was referring to:

"That won't work as expected. You can only achieve cancellation using pure sine waves under near-laboratory conditions when the emitters are precisely 1/2 wavelength apart, (148 cm @ 20C for 116 Hz) and are synchronized in phase and have equal amplitude."

I first thought that I got my frequency wrong on the phone since the drone would get twice as bad, then better, then bad, then better. It would speed up then it would slow down going back and forth. I figure this is due to the fact that my phone and exhaust were both emitters. You would have to start the phone frequency at the exact right time for it not oscillate back and forth between doubling the drone and reducing it.Not to mention, it would be hard to keep the car at a constant 1750rpm. It will only be as close and precise as the cars CC system would allow.

When the frequencies were 180* out of alignment, I wouldn't say the drone was completely gone, but reduced yes.

What I have found out first hand is what MisterMike and others have been saying. There are many other factors in doing this. Most of them I (as a common chump) cannot account for or do anything about to "plan ahead". I tried leaving the phone tone playing but try to narrow in on the frequency by speeding up or slowing down. Still gave me the same drone amplification/reduction oscillation.

So, I took this away...1)it is possible to do this under a more controlled environment 2)those calculations (as I have read before) are for a very narrow frequency range 3) I'm kind of deaf now...lol

Most of the guys doing this mod have mufflers/cats/resonators somewhere in their system. Having a drone-free catless/muffler-less system I don't see happening just by the sheer noise that also gets generated that may be mistaken as drone. So my "done" may be actual drone PLUS a ton of noise (that I can't get rid of without a muffler).

Going forward I will have the 4" round magnaflow muffler installed in my single 3" system and go from there.

Last edited by smitty2919; 09-03-2012 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:28 AM   #50
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The other difficulty with this method is that a small device like a phone is not capable of generating a large amplitude signal at 116 Hz, a fairly low frequency in the grand scheme of things. To match amplitude with an automotive exhaust would require a decent woofer with a fair amount of power behind it.
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Old 09-05-2012, 12:29 PM   #51
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This is what gets to me sometimes...I figure I'm doing the right thing in how to approach this with using the phone etc...cleaver ways to "verify" only to find out that it's all a bust lol.

It would be cool to be in a car and just "turn the radio on" and bye bye drone lol.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:30 PM   #52
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All I will say is:

My exhaust with cats: no drone
My exhaust without cats: drone
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Squeezing another 50 rwhp out of one of those setups would be like trying to squeeze the sarcasm out of MuhThugga. . . . . . . . not gonna happen

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Old 09-12-2012, 04:48 AM   #53
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Well, I gave in and bought some SW mufflers off a member and took the cheap solution out had them welded in rather then redo the whole exhaust. Plus I had spoke with Svede1212 and MisterMike about the impact of a single 3.5"...specifically the Y design and how it impacts scavenging. I was impressed with Svede1212's "calculated" exhaust combo and how properlay placed components give good results.

Taking my car on anything more than a 30 min trip on the highway was getting old lol.

Interesting to know that I was misinterpreting "drone" with "exhaust noise" at my proposed 1750rpm spot. With the mufflers in it looks like I'm more around 1500rpm for drone.

I may or may not revisit this idea. With dual 3" pipes with mufflers, there is not much room for more pipe. I will drive it like this for a while since my ears are happier. I still believe this can/would work just on the simple fact that people with a WIDE range of cars/trucks are all using the same calculations/method and all are reporting great results.

Thanks for everyone suggestions/help.
Until next time, signing out for now...
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:04 AM   #54
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So I'm going to bump this back up again...

I used the SW catback with SW mufflers for a while and my ears were happy. But then it seems like I got used to the that setup and I started hearing drone again. Not a lot but enough to get old when on a 1hr+ trip.

I quantify "no drone" as my L/T, catless and stock 04 catback (for any of you that have been in an 04 with this setup). Only issue is I would like to have a little more "bite" out of the exhaust note.

I picked up a welder, so now modification/plans have gotten one step closer. I still wouldn't mind making a single 3.5" system with a Dynomax VT muffler in the 05/06 location (buy mandrel bends and muffler and start welding), but I may be able to acheive my goal even cheaper.

I have since sold the SW catback and am back to the 04 catback. It dawned on me that there must me something in the stock mufflers/catback that eliminates drone. I know one is a "straight through" style and the other is "chambered"....also that there is no "crossover".

These are the only 2 pics I have found:




Anyone have pictures of the "skin" of the muffler removed to see a cutaway of them?
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:13 AM   #55
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Stumbled across a pic of the drivers side straight through muffler:

[IMG][/IMG]

Search continues for passenger side
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Old 03-03-2013, 02:38 PM   #56
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Well...finally completed this and it works VERY well!

It is 29" long and 3.5" piping to cancel my 1750rpm 70mph cruising drone.

The only thing in the system is a 3" Magnaflow Magnapack in 05/06 location.







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Old 03-07-2013, 09:42 PM   #57
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Hmmmm good read. Cool results at the end. I felt like I learned a lot in the exhaust section tonight..... Wow never expected that to happen.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:23 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buford T. Justice...View Post
Hmmmm good read. Cool results at the end. I felt like I learned a lot in the exhaust section tonight..... Wow never expected that to happen.

That was my goal along with actually making this and having it work without breaking the bank. I doubt someone else will do this though.

Most people here will just buy a quieter exhaust or go Corsa. For any DIY'ers it's worth a try.

I'll say this though, exhaust work is tricky and we have a simple exhaust routing. Getting angles right etc. Gives a new found respect for the GOOD exhaust shops.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:11 AM   #59
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Smity, have you considered selectively adding sound deadening? It'll help with tire noise when not absorbing exhaust waves. I did Dymamat on the doors and under the rear seats on the wall. Made a nice difference since most of my driving is on the highway.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:47 AM   #60
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I have not. If i did, I would think to put it behind the rear seat, doors and over fender wells in the trunk.

While added weight is not a huge issue with me since it's no track car, how much weight did you think you added Norm?

Did you use Dynamat product? Or some other company?

I hear Second Skin has some great product with a butyl based and closed cell foam based materials that, when used together, work amazing.
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