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Old 01-28-2013, 09:50 AM   #1
Fourman
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what would you do? 550ish whp on e85

I have been so focused on suspension/brakes this winter that i have not thought about fueling requirements with my new bolt ons until last week. Fuel systems intimidate me a bit, so any advice would be greatly appreciated. I think that with the new parts i might test or break 550. Very optimistic thoughts of 570 are in my head... but as optimistic as that may be, its not like i want to just barely get by fuel-wise, so build for 600+?

Ive read through the "i am doing all the sh*t the interwebs tells me not to do" thread, but i am just not sure what all applies to an NA setup. I am completely ignorant with fuel systems. That said...

Current fuel system: all stock except for a walbro 255 and some 72# resized LS3 injectors

Old build: 11.4:1 403 with ported LS3 top end, 234/242 cam. 523whp, 70% IDC
New build: 11.7:1 403 with ported LS3 heads, 239/245 cam, mamo fast 102, NW102

Last year i was seeing some pressure drop. I was getting down into the high 40s psi at the top of 2nd. This was with the new compression and cam but the old intake/TB. The tune was unfinished and the dyno's sniffer said i was a bit lean after 5500 or so.

What i know: stock rail + LS3 fast102 + LS3 injectors = no reach. Planning on some aftermarket rails instead of injector spacers.

What i think (and really, i do not know) : i need more pump? Maybe a BAP gets me by? Maybe an 8.1 bucket? Stock pump feeds bucket, 255 feeds engine? Some combination of all that?

What would you do?
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:02 AM   #2
VT05ls2goat
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I don't think you're even close to running out of injector, but I'd be willing to bet you're running out of pump. What are your end goals? Are you done with power mods now and just ready to have it tuned for the last time?

You may want to just try a voltage booster before spending more money on a bigger fuel system. It doesn't sound like you need too much more fuel.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:14 AM   #3
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I think i will be done. I really didnt put it together as-is with boost in mind and i am even more ignorant on nitrous than i am on fuel systems, so i do not think i would go that route either.

Like you, i am leaning more towards pumping ability than i am towards injectors. My only concern with just adding a BAP is that a lot of people seem to talk badly about the reliability of the walbro 255 and this one has been in my tank since 2010. Bad rep pump getting older and then turning up the juice... good/bad idea?
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Old 02-04-2013, 03:51 AM   #4
1_slow_goat_ A4
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I don't have any dyno numbers but my gto was trapping 130mph with a single pump on spray and never had an issue.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:35 AM   #5
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You could go with a deutschwerks dw65c with a BAP.
Or you could even buy one of the new walbro 450 e85 pumps.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_slow_goat_ A4...View Post
I don't have any dyno numbers but my gto was trapping 130mph with a single pump on spray and never had an issue.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:48 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_slow_goat_ A4...View Post
I don't have any dyno numbers but my gto was trapping 130mph with a single pump on spray and never had an issue.

On e85?
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:11 AM   #8
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I did some thinking and some searching and some math... wanted to throw this out there and make sure i am thinking correctly.

High side estimate of 575 whp
High side estimate of 18% drivetrain loss
700*.82=574... so let us proceed at fuel requirements for 700 crank hp

PUMP:
GPH = HP * BSFC / DC% / 6.009
This formula says that your GPH requirement is equal to crank hp multiplied by brake specific fuel consumption divided by pump duty cycle percentage divided by 6.009, which is the weight of a gallon of gasoline at 65 and .72 atmosphere. Time to plug in values. According to what i have read, 90% pump duty cycle is used for calculations in order to leave a cushion and .5 is a safe value for NA BSFC.

GPH = 700 * .5 / .90 / 6.009
GPH = 64.72

I think this is the point where the e85 conversion should be performed

64.72 * 1.3 = 84.13 GPH

3.785 liters per gallon...

84.13 * 3.785 = 318.44 LPH required of the pump.

I am not sure how our 58psi fuel system comes into play here. There is no calculation based on fuel pressure to this point, so perhaps it does not matter? That would make sense i suppose, due to the calculation being based on engine output with the BSFC factor.

INJECTORS:
I used an online calculator for this, so i do not know the formula.

Input:
700 flywheel hp
8 injectors
.5 BSFC
80% max injector duty cycle

Output: 54.7 lb/hr

I think the e85 conversion is required here as well

54.7 * 1.3 = 71.1

Looks like i am just within the safe 80% IDC calculation with my 72#s

Thoughts on this? Am i on the right track? Are my calculations/assumptions off base?
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:55 PM   #9
1_slow_goat_ A4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audacious Nick...View Post
On e85?

oops, i missed that part. no, this was on pump gas
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:01 AM   #10
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This is what I did. I am selling mine.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-clas...el-system.html
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:38 PM   #11
Jared H
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350lph intank E85 Pump

I think you can source it via ETMC ... I do not see it on their website but they are a vendor for pump source and I'm sure they could get it for you if you were interested.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:36 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsta...View Post
This is what I did. I am selling mine.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-clas...el-system.html

! Injectors with that too?
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:52 PM   #13
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The Stealth 340 pumps have worked well for me. I can't remember where I read this but I believe the pump is good for 700+ crank hp w/o boost. Aeromotive makes good products so maybe check them out...
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:01 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourman...View Post
I did some thinking and some searching and some math... wanted to throw this out there and make sure i am thinking correctly.

High side estimate of 575 whp
High side estimate of 18% drivetrain loss
700*.82=574... so let us proceed at fuel requirements for 700 crank hp

PUMP:
GPH = HP * BSFC / DC% / 6.009
This formula says that your GPH requirement is equal to crank hp multiplied by brake specific fuel consumption divided by pump duty cycle percentage divided by 6.009, which is the weight of a gallon of gasoline at 65 and .72 atmosphere. Time to plug in values. According to what i have read, 90% pump duty cycle is used for calculations in order to leave a cushion and .5 is a safe value for NA BSFC.

GPH = 700 * .5 / .90 / 6.009
GPH = 64.72

I think this is the point where the e85 conversion should be performed

64.72 * 1.3 = 84.13 GPH

3.785 liters per gallon...

84.13 * 3.785 = 318.44 LPH required of the pump.

I am not sure how our 58psi fuel system comes into play here. There is no calculation based on fuel pressure to this point, so perhaps it does not matter? That would make sense i suppose, due to the calculation being based on engine output with the BSFC factor.

INJECTORS:
I used an online calculator for this, so i do not know the formula.

Input:
700 flywheel hp
8 injectors
.5 BSFC
80% max injector duty cycle

Output: 54.7 lb/hr

I think the e85 conversion is required here as well

54.7 * 1.3 = 71.1

Looks like i am just within the safe 80% IDC calculation with my 72#s

Thoughts on this? Am i on the right track? Are my calculations/assumptions off base?

E85 conversion is not required the second time that you have for the injectors. You already converted once in delivery. I'm running 720cc (~69lb)injector dynamics injectors making more than you hope for at low 80's% duty cycle. IMO you are gonna need a little more pump. Most pump manufacturers have a flow chart based on voltage and psi. Make sure you fuel calculations include about a 30% return.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:22 PM   #15
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Just seen you locale. I'm in kokomo. Not to far away.
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