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Old 02-03-2013, 06:49 AM   #31
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I think we need some more information tocomment on that slip.

1) What was the DA that day?
2) Was the car sitting in line heating up the IAT?
3) What is the race weight of the car & driver?
4) Where is the rpm that the car is shifting at?
5) When you launch - any hesitation or slight bogging?
6) Track prep okay? No spinning?
7) Same questions above for prior best before change.
8) How do the incrementals match up from prior best run?
9) Was that converter in the car before the new setup or designed for the H/C?

In regards to the dyno & track - not sure how well the vararam flows for these type of cars - anyone else know? It would be nice to to see an airflow log to see if there is any rpm choke points.

Dyno numbers I leave to others.

Just some thoughts and hope you figure it out.

Steve
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:48 AM   #32
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Yes i know the dyno sheet is a shitty one but thats i all i have on it right now......trying to get the tuner to email me the file. No one has a thought on the dip of power at 5000 rpms???? Why the convertor wont stay locked??
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Old 02-03-2013, 10:57 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rushhour...View Post
I think we need some more information tocomment on that slip.

1) What was the DA that day?
2) Was the car sitting in line heating up the IAT?
3) What is the race weight of the car & driver?
4) Where is the rpm that the car is shifting at?
5) When you launch - any hesitation or slight bogging?
6) Track prep okay? No spinning?
7) Same questions above for prior best before change.
8) How do the incrementals match up from prior best run?
9) Was that converter in the car before the new setup or designed for the H/C?

In regards to the dyno & track - not sure how well the vararam flows for these type of cars - anyone else know? It would be nice to to see an airflow log to see if there is any rpm choke points.

Dyno numbers I leave to others.

Just some thoughts and hope you figure it out.

Steve


Temps were mid 50's
I pushed the car through the line
Car is full weight
Car shifting at 6500
No hesitation or spinning at launch, full balls to the wall

For prior best
everything still the same except car was shifting at 6700
Yes had same yank 3600 converter both times
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:15 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchicia1...View Post
LS3 heads are just not that great on LS2 blocks IMO.

*cough* bullshit *cough*
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:25 AM   #35
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I really cannot believe that we are still seeing people say the LS3 heads don't work

I do believe we have a gigantic 100+page thread on this site, which is one of the most concentrated sources of LS3 head swap information in the entire LS forum landscape, that says otherwise. I see plenty of 460+rwhp H/C 6.0 motors with stock, unported LS3 heads complete with stock shrouded, heavy ass valves. I personally made 475rwhp with lightly ported LS3 heads and a itty bitty 224/230 off the shelf comp cam; this was after making 450rwhp with the same cam and completely bone stock, not even milled LS3 heads that I picked up from the parts counter at the local GM dealer.

Thanks to these wonderful LS motors that GM designed, the cathedral port heads aren't the only game in town. You can make phenomenal power using 243, 241, LS3, or aftermarket heads. I know there are lots of cars running badass cathedral port heads and getting close to or over 500 at the wheels on 6.0 blocks. But those of you who look at the square ports and scoff, saying the valves are too shrouded, or too heavy, or the exhaust to intake flow is terrible, or any number of the oft repeated yet continually disproven internet theories that are used to discredit these fantastic cylinder heads, are fools.

Sure, on paper the LS3 heads might leave some people scratching their heads. But do you know where they shine? In the real world, in real cars, on the dyno, on the track. The places where internet myths meet harsh daylight and disappear like farts in the wind
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Valve shrouding on a stock motor is fine though, because ultimately you're just going to blow it up anyways, and then bore out the motor. Voila, valve unshrouded.


Last edited by Beach Goat; 02-03-2013 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 02-03-2013, 11:54 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morris05GTO...View Post
Temps were mid 50's
I pushed the car through the line
Car is full weight
Car shifting at 6500
No hesitation or spinning at launch, full balls to the wall

For prior best
everything still the same except car was shifting at 6700
Yes had same yank 3600 converter both times

Interesting - you have a good prior run to compare it too and the car was hooking.

I think you are going to need to log this car on a run to see if anything is screwing up. Maybe at a shift your getting knock or the Ls3 MAF is causing issues - too hard to tell - could be a bunch of things.

I know on my car I had an issue that ended up being a tail pipe that was just to close to the pumpkn and though you couldn't hear it touch/ping - the engine thought it was knock every once and a while and pulled some serious timing.

Good luck with her.

Steve
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:39 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beach Goat...View Post
I really cannot believe that we are still seeing people say the LS3 heads don't work

Steve

The gurus on Tech said they suck, so that means it must be true. Just because you made 470+ on a 6.0 does not mean you know what you are talking about. Your car was a mutant that GM actually sold you.LOL

To make the story better, the guy that built your LS2 at the factory was pissed off because they cut his overtime, so there were about 70 LS2's that actually came with a bigger bore.

sarcasim

Quote:
Originally Posted by rushhour...View Post
Interesting - I know on my car I had an issue that ended up being a tail pipe that was just to close to the pumpkn and though you couldn't hear it touch/ping - the engine thought it was knock every once and a while and pulled some serious timing.

Good luck with her.

Steve

Mannn, how long did it take you to figure out that was the issue.
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:25 PM   #38
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I figured some folks were probably gonna get butt hurt. Admittedly, LS3 heads are better than 243 heads. But, due to valve shrouding, there are better options on a 4" bore motor. I've seen a couple people with LS2 motors swap out their LS3 heads for Trick Flow and make a lot more hp. Heck, I've seen a LS2 with stock 243 heads make more than 470 hp. So, until you are running bigger than a 4" bore, the catherdral heads seem to be just fine.

That dyno sheet the OP posted was STD which is probably about 4% higher than SAE. That means it was really about 405 hp. Heck, I've seen bolt-on cars put down nearly that much. There is clearly something wrong here.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:40 PM   #39
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Butthurt....riiiiight. Dissenting opinions=butthurt.

You can say they don't work all you want. You can show me a dozen charts, data graphs, or engineering articles that show how shrouded the intake valves are, and how they shouldn't work.

And ill show you a fast car with square port heads. That's what it boils down to. In real life, they just plain work, no matter how many internet experts say they don't.
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Old 02-03-2013, 09:06 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beach Goat...View Post
In real life, they just plain work, no matter how many internet experts say they don't.

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Old 02-04-2013, 07:04 AM   #41
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fact: L92s shot JFK and caused hurricane katrina. they are also rumored to kick puppies.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:21 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Fourman...View Post
fact: L92s shot JFK and caused hurricane katrina. they are also rumored to kick puppies.

They couldn't have caused Hurricane Katrina, the gargantuan intake valves were shrouding New Orleans the whole time.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:38 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Beach Goat...View Post
They couldn't have caused Hurricane Katrina, the gargantuan intake valves were shrouding New Orleans the whole time.

Lol that was hilarious. Well played, sir.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:52 AM   #44
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Once again, it boils down to the set-up.

LS3 heads and a mismatched camshaft profile will make less power than 243 heads and a well-matched camshaft profile and vice versa. Every time.

I will say that the biggest mistake people make with LS3 heads on a 6.0 block is they go crazy with the porting. If you are going to do anything, mill them, maybe a valve job, but leave the ports alone.

I selected LS3 heads because I got a killer deal on a complete top-end, and those heads leave me room to grow in the future when I decide on doing a stroker. 402? 416? It doesn't matter because the heads will complement either displacement.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:59 AM   #45
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Need to see the air/fuel ratio to determine anything.
Anyone can make shit power with a shit tune.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:13 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuhThugga...View Post
Once again, it boils down to the set-up.

LS3 heads and a mismatched camshaft profile will make less power than 243 heads and a well-matched camshaft profile and vice versa. Every time.

I will say that the biggest mistake people make with LS3 heads on a 6.0 block is they go crazy with the porting. If you are going to do anything, mill them, maybe a valve job, but leave the ports alone.

I selected LS3 heads because I got a killer deal on a complete top-end, and those heads leave me room to grow in the future when I decide on doing a stroker. 402? 416? It doesn't matter because the heads will complement either displacement.

Exactly. The combination is what makes it. The LS3 heads are phenomenal (and cheap) when matched with the correct cam.

FWIW, most of the butthurt and the negativity on Toke (and elsewhere) about LS3 heads come from LS1 guys who can't use them.



Like anything else, there are better heads out there that cost a smurf ton more money. But the combination of LS3 heads and a cam spec'd for them (and the rest of the car) is going to be one of the best bangs for the buck that money can buy.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:35 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick G...View Post
It's totally the heads. I have seen TFS 235 heads consistently pick up anywhere from 30-40 over stock or ported LS3 heads on 402-408 engines...every time. You L92 lovers have to understand that these heads are not ideal for a 4" bore. The big 2.165" intake valve is slammed right next to the chamber wall and cylinder bore. Might flow well at 28" of H2O but it does not make great power on a real running engine...not compared to a well designed cathedral port head.

LS3 heads are a good low budget option, don't get me wrong. But, if you are after max power though, there are better options with a 4" bore. The LS3 heads are not working for the OP though, especially when we've seen cam only LS2 GTOs make more power than him.

Last edited by batboy; 02-04-2013 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:40 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by batboy...View Post
LS3 heads are a good low budget option, don't get me wrong. If you are after max power though, there are better options with a 4" bore. They sure don't seem to be working for the OP though when we've seen cam only LS2 GTOs make more power than him.


http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomete...k-results.html

114 trap still seems real low though. The ported LS3 heads that I have seen under perform didn't make LESS power than stock LS3 heads. They just didn't make much more and we all know an ls3 head swap will trap more than 114. Hell I trapped 119 cam/fast only.

I would say he has a tune or install issue still.

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Old 02-04-2013, 08:44 AM   #49
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Interesting read and it backs up what I've been saying.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:44 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchicia1...View Post
http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomete...k-results.html

Those are also $3600 heads on top of a $1000 porting job on a $1000 intake. That's basically a max-effort build for that car NA without going into the block.

Now, as everyone on here will say, you can get great power out of LS3 heads. But there are some choices that will net better results with the proper set-up (which is the single most important thing). For most people, spending <$1000 on a set of LS3 heads will be enough. There are those who will want and/or need a more extreme set-up, though, and if you have money to blow, there are some great ones out there.

But it all comes down to the set-up. Matching the heads, cam, and other parts.

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Old 02-04-2013, 08:46 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by mchicia1...View Post
http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomete...k-results.html

To be fair though they changed the cam and heads. Plus the point has already been made that there are more expensive heads that are better than L92s. Nobody is arguing that. The point was that L92s are a good bang for your buck. After researching the L92 thread its pretty obvious that it all depends on how your cam is spec'd with the L92 heads as to how well they will perform.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:51 AM   #52
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Also, I am not all that impressed with Pat's track times and MPH. There are G8s running L92 heads that are lightly milled with a valve job running an equal MPH. With my stall change in my car, I should be running right near his MPH or equal to it.

For a "500rwhp" car with $3600 heads, I walk away quite unimpressed compared to what other guys are running and spending.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:56 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by youngrushhour...View Post
Also, I am not all that impressed with Pat's track times and MPH. There are G8s running L92 heads that are lightly milled with a valve job running an equal MPH. With my stall change in my car, I should be running right near his MPH or equal to it.

For a "500rwhp" car with $3600 heads, I walk away quite unimpressed compared to what other guys are running and spending.

I didn't really link that to say L92s suck. I just thought it was interesting. I like the L92 swap if you leave them alone. I am just not a fan of spending the money to port them on a stock displacement ls2.

As for his times, It really is hard compare anything car for car. Just running a drag pack can add 2+ mph.

I always thought 121-122 mph was hauling in a heavy G8 assuming he is stock weight on drag radials.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:04 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchicia1...View Post
I didn't really link that to say L92s suck. I just thought it was interesting. I like the L92 swap if you leave them alone. I am just not a fan of spending the money to port them on a stock displacement ls2.

As for his times, It really is hard compare anything car for car. Just running a drag pack can add 2+ mph.

I always thought 121-122 mph was hauling in a heavy G8 assuming he is stock weight on drag radials.

121 IS fast. But it's as fast as guys are running with unported L92s with proper matching cams and a good set-up around the system. That's a very unimpressive MPH for a "500rwhp" car. Most guys around 460 or so are running near the same MPH.

I chalk it up to the gains being nowhere near as significant as Pat and some other dyno lovers think they are. Look at what cars being spec'd by Rick Crawford are running (most all of them are 120 or very close to it). I mean, the cam only G8 record is the same as what Pat's car ran (11.4). And that's not even with milled heads or a valve job!

That thread is just a typical Toke masterbatory thread where the real world results are not as impressive as the dyno results when you compare his car to what others are running with set-ups that cost half the price.

I give Pat credit for doing the swap, but I walk away unimpressed with the actual times compared to the dyno sheet. JMHO. It gets a "meh" from me.
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:12 AM   #55
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Isn't your car like a 112ish trap car? How are you gonna gain 10 mph with a stall swap? Or did you change more?
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:23 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mchicia1...View Post
Isn't your car like a 112ish trap car? How are you gonna gain 10 mph with a stall swap? Or did you change more?

No. I trap 115s right now as it sits. 114 on hot days.

The stall is killing the car both at the low end 60' time and the slop at the top end (MPH). I am also changing the intake to a Rick Crawford modified L92 intake which should help the top end even more. I'll never use another Circle D stall. I should've paid the money at the time and went with the Coan from the beginning.

I should gain 2 or so just with the stall change. Another 2 or 3 with the intake change (that intake is gaining more than FAST intakes, FWIW, on these cars).
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Old 02-04-2013, 03:51 PM   #57
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121 IS fast. But it's as fast as guys are running with unported L92s with proper matching cams and a good set-up around the system. That's a very unimpressive MPH for a "500rwhp" car. Most guys around 460 or so are running near the same MPH.

I chalk it up to the gains being nowhere near as significant as Pat and some other dyno lovers think they are. Look at what cars being spec'd by Rick Crawford are running (most all of them are 120 or very close to it). I mean, the cam only G8 record is the same as what Pat's car ran (11.4). And that's not even with milled heads or a valve job!

That thread is just a typical Toke masterbatory thread where the real world results are not as impressive as the dyno results when you compare his car to what others are running with set-ups that cost half the price.

I give Pat credit for doing the swap, but I walk away unimpressed with the actual times compared to the dyno sheet. JMHO. It gets a "meh" from me.

Kinda what I thought too. He sounds like a salesman trying to sell cylinder heads. I personally dont give two cents worth of crap about dyno number. Its all about the track times. When I look at signatures on here I completely bypass the hp numbers and look for times.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:50 PM   #58
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Kinda what I thought too. He sounds like a salesman trying to sell cylinder heads. I personally dont give two cents worth of crap about dyno number. Its all about the track times. When I look at signatures on here I completely bypass the hp numbers and look for times.

I never understand why anyone would just write off LS3 heads. It's retarded and flies in the face of all the real-world results that they have brought. And, for the bang for the buck, they may be the way to go for most LS2 owners. A good cam and a matching set of LS3 heads from someone like EDC is going to get you ridiculous power for a relatively cheap price compared to the $3600 heads that are "better" than them according to Pat G.

And yes. Pat G is a salesman through-and-through. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:53 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by youngrushhour...View Post
I never understand why anyone would just write off LS3 heads. It's retarded and flies in the face of all the real-world results that they have brought. And, for the bang for the buck, they may be the way to go for most LS2 owners. A good cam and a matching set of LS3 heads from someone like EDC is going to get you ridiculous power for a relatively cheap price compared to the $3600 heads that are "better" than them according to Pat G.

And yes. Pat G is a salesman through-and-through. Nothing more, nothing less.

I agree, which makes it very interesting because the OP has EDC heads/cam/intake everything and he came out with poor numbers, which really points to something else going on.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:26 PM   #60
housewolf
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2006 GTO Owner

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lost highway
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Originally Posted by mchicia1...View Post
With a 1.7 60', his ET matches his trap speed pretty dead nuts IMO.

Agreed, I went back through my data and found this:
Me------------------- OP
1.766---------------1.777
4.996---------------5.037
7.689/91.4---------7.747/90.44
10.045-------------10.096
12.036/113.07--- 12.069/114.55

The disheartening part is; I was cam only on 17" tires & 3.46 gears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS2-GTO...View Post
Need to see the air/fuel ratio to determine anything.
Anyone can make shit power with a shit tune.

If PatG did his tune, it's not likely he left with a "shit tune". I'm not a PatG nuthugger but I've worked with Pat and know the amount of effort he puts into all the cars he tunes. Like I said...IME; not likely.
I will add; anything is possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by youngrushhour...View Post
But it all comes down to the set-up. Matching the heads, cam, and other parts.

I hope we are beyond the point of trying to decide if these heads will work on an LS2. There's enough guys here and on tech that have proven that point. Unfortunately, this wouldn't be the first time LS3/92 results fell short of expectations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by youngrushhour...View Post
I'll never use another Circle D stall.

I'd be hard pressed to use anything but. This was three N/A passes in a row a couple of weeks ago with a Circle D C4 that has about a 125 good hits on it. I kept raising the launch rpm and it kept leaving harder. It may have a bit more in it


To the OP; I only just noticed you have 3.91 gears too. I was thinking your 60' left a bit on the table with 3.46s. Have you logged the car for converter efficiency? Trans slipping. Unless you weight 4K#+ or are spinning terribly, your "problem" is presenting itself right off the line. I would expect mid 1.5s in that air @ ~3800#s on decent drag radials.

I know how frustrating it is but I would suggest being patient and methodically working your way through this without jumping to conclusions that may or may not be correct. You need to get some logs at the track.
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