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Old 02-25-2013, 12:12 PM   #1
MikeTheDiabetic
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Couple Suspension questions.

So i have been thinking about upgrading he suspension on my 06 w/ about 63,000 miles on stock suspension. it is my DD during the warm months and garaged November - March. I Know i wanna do RR and Strut mount Bushings and i also know that i should do springs while i am in there. So my questions are..

1. Should i go for the Poly Strut mount bushings or just stick with the pedders regular replacement ones. I heard that if they arent Poly then they can fail again.

2. What would be my best option for springs? Keeping money in mind. I dont wanna break the bank but i don't want absolute crap either.

I dont track my car. I go to the strip maybe once a year for fun. other than that its just my fun street car. I have seen some spring kits for sale that are cheap (probably a little too cheap) Like the Tien's and the Megan Racing ones. I am sure that they are not that good but has anyone dealt with them yet? Other than that i know the pedder's spring are great but they are around 500 for the kit. Eibach's maybe? any info would be greats guys. Thanks
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:26 PM   #2
Rob@WretchedMS
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either of the pedders options will not fail again, the stock bushings are a liquid filled bushing that sucks,

the urethane bushing is adjustable and will provide more support vs the rubber.

as for springs, the Pedders 0 drop springs are a good all around option.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:35 PM   #3
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Lovells are an economical quality spring for the GTO. To the best of my knowledge the Megan Racing springs for a GTO have been discontinued because of issues. Eibachs and Tiens are far from ideal for GTO...do a search and you will find out why. If you really want the Eibachs or Tiens I can get them...but I would spend the few extra bucks on Lovells. If your gonna drop it that low with Eibachs or Teins you will need to te replace the struts/shocks...Konis would be your best. If you drop in the rear is greater then 3/4" you will need a camber adjuster in the rear
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:42 PM   #4
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I definitly want to lean towards the lovells or the pedders. I also would like to drop it a bit so i want to not get the zero drops because from what i understand when im done the car will actually sit higher because of my current sag. def not more than 3/4" tho.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:51 PM   #5
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So would it be necessary to replace all that stuff if i went with your 20mm drop springs? or will i be ok? And also why does your site say that the rears are $126 and then when i click on them it changes to $253? but the front say $206 no matter what? whats the actual price?
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:55 PM   #6
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i just noticed that i gave an incorrect answer,
my answer on 1 was for the radius rod bushings.

if you lower the car you really should replace the front struts, i can't recommend lowering it on stock struts.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:47 PM   #7
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Eibach's ride real nice, especially when combined with Koni shocks.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:56 PM   #8
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Another option are the King springs. I have Pedders right now and on the second rear set as the first set sagged and the second on haven't sagged but it stop being firm like when I installed it and allows way to more squat on the rear that I'm comfortable with. They are good for daily driving, but not if you have much hp on the car.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:23 PM   #9
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Rubber mounts will collapse no way around it. I would suggest working with Andy at Kollar racing he will get you set up right at a realistic price. If you are changing strut mounts you might as well do struts as stock leave a lot on the table. Same goes for changing springs as well.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:12 PM   #10
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Great info guys keep it coming! Any suggestions on struts and shocks?
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:53 PM   #11
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Kyb struts and shocks ok for a DD? Thinking possibly going with eibach springs 1" front .8" rear. KYB front and rear and kollar poly strut mount bushings and RR bushings. Any input is appreciated. Like i said its my DD for 7 months without track use. I want a nice look, stance, and ride.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:34 PM   #12
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KYB's are decent, but i wouldn't lower with them.
not saying you can't, just that i wouldn't.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:39 PM   #13
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eibach is way to soft you may as well keep the factory ones. Lovells 350 with the 400lb spring rate is ideal not over sprung not under just right. ride height is perfect also. I have ran 4 sets of rear springs and this has been the best by far. front struts need replacing at that mileage rear shocks will be ok but I would suggest them. honestly Lovell drop struts and spring should have been oem.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:59 PM   #14
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Im in your same situation and I decided to evenuatally piece together a Lovell/Koni set up so it firms up the ride but not too much for DD then at the track you can adjust to stiffen the shocks up if you so desire.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:25 AM   #15
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Yeah i hear ya. The problem is by the time you piece together the lovells and konis. paired with poly strut mounts you are already spending more then a complete coilover setup. doesnt make sense in my eyes. Would getting the BC coilover kit solve all my problems? since that would be like buying the strut mounts, springs, and struts/shocks? im confused. lol
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:57 AM   #16
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Coilovers will be noticeably stiffer. I honestly thought my car rode better with coilovers than my worn out stock struts however.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by high school goat...View Post
Coilovers will be noticeably stiffer. I honestly thought my car rode better with coilovers than my worn out stock struts however.

this x2

if you want, you can order them with a softer spring if you're concerned with ride quality, but the default springs are fine for most. I actually would like a stiffer set even
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:44 AM   #18
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ok i think i am going with the kyb struts, over to kollar for the RR and Strut Mount bushings, and possibly eibach's 1" front .8" rear springs. gonna have to start buying little by little. Poly bushings are first
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:10 AM   #19
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Why do you want to replace the springs? Dampers wear out, springs don't. If you want a firmer ride, or want to change ride height, then go ahead and replace them. If you want a stock ride with stock ride height, just replace the dampers.

If the rear's are sagging, then you can install some 10mm spring pads to raise it up.

Contrary to popular belief, springs do not loose spring rate over time. they do lose capacity though, which is what causes the sag; but the rate stays the same.

With 97k miles, I have stock springs, Monroe Sensatrac dampers, all poly bushings, SLP rear sway bar and 10mm spring pads in the rear and the car rides great. It doesn't handle like a sports car, but I was looking to restore factory ride comfort rather than try to make it ride on rails.

It does do very well on the road course though!
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:16 AM   #20
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springs dont wear out? Of course they do, the spring constant degrades with time. Very rapidly initially as they set, then very slowly after that, but they degrade

our saggy rear springs are testament to this, though their wear rate was a bit accelerated due to being trapped down for so long
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:21 AM   #21
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Ummm, no, the rate of a spring never changes regardless of age. the load capability of the spring does change though, because it's a factor of rate and height, but the rate itself never changes. A rear spring sagging 10mm reduces the max load (because coil bind will happen in a shorter distance), but rate is still the same.

Do a Google search and you'll find LOTS of info supporting this. Or just ask an engineer ....

I found this on a very quick search:
Click for more info
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:00 PM   #22
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I thought metals fatigue with repeated loading/unloading. example being a paperclip. Bend it a few times, sure, bend it a bunch of times, it'll just break. I thought the molecular bonds of the metal will actually break down with constant displacements, reducing the spring rate.

I'll ask my materials professor tomorrow I guess to clarify it all for me
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:17 PM   #23
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Ya, your paperclip analogy isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison.

That would be like taking the top coil of the spring and bending it back and forth, not compressing it, but bending it horizontally. You would weaken the metal, and the coil would break off, but the remaining coils would still have a spring rate ... although breaking a coil off WOULD change the rate, because you've reduced the # of active coils.

Fairly certain it's the heat due to friction which causes the break though, but I'm not sure. Notice when you bend the paperclip faster, it gets hot, and breaks faster?

Here is a REALLY good read on springs

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM Net Tech Articles...
You must remember, however, the only factors that affect spring rate are wire diameter, mean diameter, number of active coils.

Apologies to the OP for getting so far off topic ...
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:42 PM   #24
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I have a spare set of Eibach lowering springs if you're interested. Shoot me a PM.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:52 PM   #25
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Well the rear spring sag was a big reason for the new springs but I also wouldn't mind the look of the new ride height. Is a rear spacer really an answer? Sounds like its just like putting a bandaid on it.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:55 PM   #26
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i wouldn't recommend a spacer to correct ride height,
they are typically used to create clearance
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:03 PM   #27
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The sag is nothing more than the spring setting. It's extremely common in coil springs. Adding a spacer is nothing more than adjusting the ride height to correct the geometry of the chassis. Search the forum for "Ride Frequency" if you really want the details behind chassis geometry and how ride height effects it.

The loss of handling performance when the springs are sagged really has nothing to do with the springs performance, but is a result of the chassis sitting lower messing up the chassis geometry. Raising it back up will fix this.

Now if you want a lower stance, or a firmer ride, you'll need to replace the springs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM Net Tech Articles: Understanding Coil Springs...
What if a Spring "Sets"?
When a spring takes a set it will normally stabilize at its new height. The rate effectively remains the same since no appreciable changes have been made to any of the three factors that determine the spring's rate. Other than creating a need to readjust the chassis (to restore the original set-up and ride heights) the spring should provide satisfactory performance. It is not uncommon for even well designed and properly manufactured springs to settle up to 1% of their free height. It needs to be pointed out, however, that in cases where a poorly designed spring is subject to extreme over-stressing, the spring's height may not stabilize. The spring may continue to change height (both shortening and lengthening) as the spring is worked. As a result, the set-up on the race car changes every time the spring's height changes. This can cause major chassis tuning headaches!

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Old 02-26-2013, 01:26 PM   #28
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OP

before throwing out a new answer (and I've posted on this before and I'm sure most roll their eyes).


A) do you ever road course or auto x your car?

or

B) do you romp some back roads and have minor engine, suspension etc mods

or

C) bone stock all around just dig the ride.




because between those 3 cases you can get 3 distinct answers. based on your post I assume you actually fall into B or C.

I DD's my GTO for years on city streets and I have to tell you. GET THE ZERO DROPS. Worst mistake I ever made was going for the 20mm drop kits just due to BS on city streets.

Meanwile I also road coursed my GTO So there is something to be said for accounting for the other mods you may have done.

my suggestion if B or C apply to you: Get the rubber strut mounts, they reduce noise and harshness and will live as long as whatever strut you put under the car. If you are going to do the work yourself - I strongly suggest Lovells and pocketing some money for future mods and or other bushings. I will say you really need to replace your RR bushings if you haven't already.

If you are having a shop install - consider Pedders.


That's my opinion having installed both brands in cars. and I'll tell you my personal car rode on Lovells or factory parts at the end of the day.


I also replaced most of the suspension bushings on my car.


Today I have a G8 - I will be putting rubber strut tops on it when I replace the struts soon. Short of getting a poly strut top that had adjustments (and I don't think anyone makes a set anymore) I will never get poly strut tops again unless I have a pure race track toy
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:58 PM   #29
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Spring Pads are intended to fine tune ride height. A sagging stock spring will continue to deteriorate. KYBS are suitable for stock height applications only. In general if you want run "other" manufactures drop springs of over 3/4" I would use either LOVELLS or Koni struts/shocks. I have personally ran a Lovells 20mm 3/4 drop Eliminator kit for over 100k through Long Island and NYC. You do have to pay attention to speed bumps and service station ramps, especially with long tubes. In addition to Poly Mounts I also carry Roadsafe Rubber mounts for those who are more sensitive to NVH. I prefer poly mounts, lifetime warranty and for most people, they feel and hear no difference in the mounts.
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:59 PM   #30
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I will say - if you've done any exhaust mods or stereo mods to your car you might never notice the difference between pedders and lovells poly vs rubber strut mounts.

but if you ever like to close off the cabin and have a gentle exhaust - you can hear it over rough roads.

Incidentally on the city streets thing - its not so much about speed bumps or entrances - my issue with the 20mm kit was more to do with overall harshness and the BS laying in the street. If you are in traffic the last thing you need to be doing is scaning under the cars infront of you for BS laying in the road.


And I dont' care what anyone says if you reduce the amount of suspension travel you are increasing the harshness of the suspension. No damper in the world is going to fix the fact that the overall system has to work faster because of less distance to cover. which is why if you like the ride - 0 drops are your ticket all day every day.

I liked romping the corners, and on the track there was a noticeable difference in ability
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