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Old 02-24-2017, 03:40 PM   #1
Curtis20112
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Okay, I'm redoing this post so I can provide more accurate information hopefully also easier to understand

I will try to get a video up soon so you guys can see and mostly hear the regular start and the bad start

PROBLEM: Occasional hard starting
Here's a video for you guys to hear for yourself. I hope it helps

What I know so far:

Seems to not matter if the engine is hot or cold

Engine seems to idle good. Very slight movement in rpm's coasting in 1st gear but not in neutral

The car actually turns over and runs fine about 80% of the time (Still driving it every day)

it seems like the internals are being spun by the starter just because when its failing to start it sometimes sputters like it's about to turn over and run.

There is no Check Engine Light


What I've done so far:
-Had Battery tested :PASS
-Had Starter tested :PASS
-Inspected flywheel has all teeth and no sheering going on
-Fuel pump pressure 52psi (engine off) 61psi (engine idle) pressure very steady
-All spark plugs are giving off a good spark
-Ran a scanner and there are no codes stored
-Relay Fuses all look good
-Checked for vacuum leaks with starter fluid. Sprayed every line, throttle body, entire intake manifold with no change in idle. Almost used the full can


About the car:
-49k Miles
-Vararam air intake
-Hinson short shifter
-Mishimoto radiator

Please all suggestions help

Last edited by Curtis20112; 03-12-2017 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 02-28-2017, 02:53 PM   #2
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what do you mean "car won't turn over?"
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Old 02-28-2017, 02:57 PM   #3
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Check for codes.

Clean MAF sensor, examine MAF connector/harness.

EDIT: just a side note, you may want to consider trying to start the car with the MAF sensor disconnected. it will throw a code, but still start if the MAF was causing the issue.

Last edited by Nothubertjfarnsworth; 02-28-2017 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 02-28-2017, 02:58 PM   #4
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i think a failing cam or crank position sensor will give you similar issues, as well. cam sensor will make the engine sputter and fart and throw a code though.
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Old 02-28-2017, 04:24 PM   #5
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I'm disappointed Farnsworth. You forgot.

sounds like someone trashed the motor, demodded it, and put it up for sale.

congratulations on your new purchase.
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Old 02-28-2017, 04:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis20112...View Post
Put the car in stands and checked out the starter and flywheel today. I don't see any broken teeth or bad connections. I'm lost here. I couldn't get the starter all of the way out. How the hell is anyone getting to the wires on the back of the starter?

Be sure and disconnect the battery first. If you cant reach the wires from under the hood, pull the exhaust manifold and swing it out of the way (or headers).
You have to get the starter out to change the crank sensor.
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Old 02-28-2017, 04:34 PM   #7
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To see if you have fuel pressure, on the drivers side fuel rail, there is a black cap like a tire valve stem cover. Unscrew the cover, put a rag under the area and press the valve release. Fuel should spray out. If no pressure, check the fuel pump relay in the pass side electrical box before pulling the fuel tank.
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Old 02-28-2017, 04:37 PM   #8
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And like Farnsworth said, the cam sensor can cause all kinds of problems. It is on the front cam cover. Fairly easy to replace.
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Old 02-28-2017, 05:58 PM   #9
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I have to agree with Farnsworth, Im confused when you turn the key what happens ?,Does the motor turn over, Starter issues are different then NO start issues, You have to separate the 2, If you get The motor to turn over what happens?, When the motor ran the last time you drove it were there any codes? Need to get the basics down first.
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Old 02-28-2017, 06:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakegoat...View Post
I'm disappointed Farnsworth. You forgot.

sounds like someone trashed the motor, demodded it, and put it up for sale.

congratulations on your new purchase.

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Old 03-01-2017, 11:30 AM   #11
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So this is still the same issue as before.
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Old 03-01-2017, 12:00 PM   #12
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some questions:

does the hard starting occur only when the engine is warm? cold? after having been sitting overnight?

any other symptoms, such as rough idle, hesitation, misfiring, etc?
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:44 PM   #13
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it seems pretty random meaning I've see it happen warm/cold. Idle does seem a little rough in first gear if I'm just coasting through a parking lot but that's the only time. (yes same issue as before the other thread just has too many other random things going at once)

Tomorrows To Do List:

-Hook up to a scanner
-Check fuel pressure

-Check crank position censor (how do I tell if there's a problem with it? will it throw a code and no light?)
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:47 PM   #14
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do you know how to bring up the "secret menu"?

with the car cold, having sat overnight, do that without starting the car. just hold the set/mode buttons together and cycle the key to run, but do not start. cycle through the options until it displays ECT. compare it to the ambient temperature. is it lower?

now start the car, holding those two buttons down, and once the secret menu comes up, cycle to ECT with the car running and let it warm up. your thermostat should open around 195 and i forget when the fans kick on... but no colder than that... does it read colder than it should?

if these numbers don't match up, your coolant temp probably needs replacing.

ALSO do the MAF sensor "test" i mentioned.

Lastly, just because your CEL isn't on doesn't mean you have pending codes. Have them pulled.

Last edited by Nothubertjfarnsworth; 03-01-2017 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:54 PM   #15
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the camshaft position sensor should be your typical hall effect pickup type, so back-probing it and seeing if you get a frequency that corresponds to engine RPM should be a good test. it would not indicate intermittent operation, though.
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Old 03-01-2017, 08:58 PM   #16
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i think you can read the cranking rpm with an obd scanner, and that should tell you if the crank position sensor is working or not. maybe.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:00 PM   #17
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...if you have a good obd scanner, or hptuners, or torque app and a bluetooth adapter, you could monitor MAF frequency/airflow as well, and see if the MAF has an issues.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:51 AM   #18
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UPDATES:
- Fuel pressure is there.
- Scanned only to find no codes
Going to check condition of all the plugs
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:52 AM   #19
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Check your MAF seneor and ECT sensor
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Old 03-02-2017, 02:11 PM   #20
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The sensor itself and the wiring looks like it is in pretty good shape. With it being an intermittent problem I couldn't see how unplugging the MAF sensor and starting would tell me anything. I can still go do it real quick though for good measure.

Also plugs and wires look good. Fuse relays look good as well. I don't think it's a problem with my fuel pump engaging because today when it didn't turn over I never turned the key all of the way off. I waited for the auto starting to time out then tried it right after which worked fine. Meaning I didn't disengage and renegage the fuel pump.

I will be looking into that ECT sensor as well. Car does have an aftermarket radiator.
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Old 03-02-2017, 02:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis20112...View Post
TWith it being an intermittent problem I couldn't see how unplugging the MAF sensor and starting would tell me anything. I can still go do it real quick though for good measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothubertjfarnsworth...View Post
...if you have a good obd scanner, or hptuners, or torque app and a bluetooth adapter, you could monitor MAF frequency/airflow as well, and see if the MAF has an issues.

logging the MAF output may tell you if you have an intermittent loss of signal, or for that matter, if the MAF is reading improperly.
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Old 03-02-2017, 03:46 PM   #22
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The coolant temp sensor s in the drivers side head in the front, close to the exhaust manifold.
I would remove the auto start thing until you figure out the problem. Just one more thing to cause a problem.
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Old 03-02-2017, 06:56 PM   #23
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So I'm back to thinking I need to check the starter solenoid. Now how'd you get behind the starter? Did you just unbolt the exhaust manifold and pull it away far enough to get in there? Trying to do this as quick as possible because it's my daily at the moment and I'll be doing it before work. I could not manage to get the wires off the back of the starter the first time. I don't have aftermarket headers or anything like that. There wasn't enough slack to drop the starter then remove the wires from the back maybe I should remove the wires first? I know last time I spent almost 2 hours trying to get that smurfer off.

Last edited by Curtis20112; 03-02-2017 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 03-03-2017, 12:57 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis20112...View Post
So I'm back to thinking I need to check the starter solenoid.

Why?
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Old 03-03-2017, 01:02 AM   #25
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i think you're getting frustrated and going back to something you think is the "obvious" cause. this is something basic that should have been eliminated a long time ago.

with a good battery charge, does the engine crank at a good rate when you turn the key? if yes, not the starter.
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Old 03-03-2017, 02:48 AM   #26
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Yep if the starter is operating then it's not broken.
The failure of the engine to start is due to either missing or improper fuel or spark, or the PCM not seeing all the correct sensor data to fire it. That is why you are being advised to read and log sensor data before and during cranking, rather than throwing un-needed parts at it.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:31 AM   #27
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I think we just need to make sure we get some definitions straight with OP.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:40 AM   #28
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So:

When we ask if the engine "cranks" or "turns over," we are asking if the engine internals rotate when the key is turned to start. You should hear the sound of the starter motor varying as the various cylinders go their compression strokes, making the typical "RarRarRarRar" noise associated with starting an engine.

When we refer to a hard start, we are referring to an attempt to start the engine where the key is turned to START, the engine CRANKS, but it does not actually start or takes a much longer time than normal to start.

NOW...OP... by these definitions... does the engine crank or turn over every time the key is turned to start???
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:53 AM   #29
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Now, it is possible it is your starter solenoid, but that means occasionally the starter solenoid isn't kicking the gear out. So the engine isn't "cranking," "turning over", "trying to start," nothing engine related rotates--so no spinning pullies or belts--and you just hear a WHIIIIIIIIIIR sound for several seconds until that autostart bs stops.
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Old 03-03-2017, 09:59 AM   #30
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Based upon a comment that was made in the beginning of all this it was said the car might of been demodded ,Is it a possibility that the car in fact was demodded and the tune is out,Just thinking out loud.
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