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Small Cam ... can I tune it myself ?

8K views 125 replies 25 participants last post by  87LC2 
#1 ·
Was thinking about maybe installing the LS9 cam (super cheap and supposed to be super smooth with decent gains for a blower cam). What kind of changes would need to be made to the tune for it to run well ? I have HP tuner but have never tuned for a cam before. Local shops around here really rape you. The most respected local shop wants $3000 for Cam, install and tune :bomb: ridicules IMO. Seen other reputable shops in TX for instance only charge $1500 total for everything including tune. Was thinking if I could tackle the tune myself it would save a lot of money and might be able to pull this off for around $1K.
 
#3 ·
Do your research on the tuning beforehand. There are a lot of great write-ups out there that show you step-by-step how to approach it. There are also numerous tunes in the repository that may be of use where a car with similar mods has been tuned and you can use portions of their tune if you get stuck. That'd be one of the easier cams to learn with!
 
#4 ·
That cam would most likely idle fine on your stock tune. I installed a 226/230 cam last year and it idled and drove on the stock tune. Just do the basics of getting the maf/ve dialed in and maybe add some base airflow and a little bit of timing in the idle cells and call it good. That is all most tuners would do with that cam anyway.

If you have hptuners, there is no reason to ever go to a tuner again. Just learn to do it yourself.
 
#13 ·
Thanks for the helpful response. That is what I was thinking too. Everyone goes on and and about how smooth it is and like stock. Still supposed to be good for about 30 WHP with a blower. FYI to others who may not now the LS9 is a blower cam for the ZR1 so its a perfect fit.

I have also talked to Ed Curtis for a custom cam. Told him I needed a mild one that will pass smog and idle smooth too. Said I wanted no less then 30 WHP from it as well. Would most likely go that route honestly.

So is the consensus that yes I could install the cam and do some mild changes to tune to make it run well ? Would it be pretty easy to at least make the tune safe right away and fine tune it over time ?

I do have a decent amount of boost wit the 2.6 pulley. I get no KR and it is a conservative tune done by a very reputable tuner. If it is half as easy as a few of you have stated I would be totally down for tuning it myself. I just want to be safe and not blow shit up of course :bomb:

Do you have an AFR gauge?
No I do not, I only have HPT and a Predator for scanning.
 
#5 ·
I don't know. Can you? Can you read and learn? Can you experiment and document what you are doing? Can you spend hours and hours reading random posts on the hptuners forums about how stuff actually works? Can you change just one thing at a time in the tune and see what the results are in reality? You need to have the patience of a laboratory researcher. You need to read everything and trust nothing. After a while, you might actually start to pick it up.

Given some of the stupid shit I've seen you post, I doubt it. But that's not an insult, that's a challenge. Prove me wrong, padowan.
 
#52 ·
Well, he kind of called it on your ability. Anyone who is even partially competent at tuning would know that you really need a wideband. .

Agree x million.

You need a wideband on a boosted car.
I tried doing the narrow-band method on the gto years back. Then i discovered what a shot in the dark using that method really is.

If you don't have a wide band, don't mess with the tune. And I don't know that there is a shop out there that will do WOT and not plan on re-doing the entire tune. Would leave to many variables unanswered, and if something went wrong, would leave them exposed to complaints/ridicule for a tune that wasn't fully their responsibility.
If you can install the cam yourself you would spend under $500 for the LS9 cam and a wideband.

I tried tuning my supercharged 3800 with the narrow bands as well. I realized real quick I wasn't getting anywhere with it. I'm by no means an experienced tuner, but I'm literally nothing without the wideband. It's worth it's weight in gold.

If you are ever in the Maryland area you can come by and use my LM2.
And OP tuning a car (a boosted one at that) without a wideband is retarded. Answer this questions...if you cannot afford a wideband can you afford a new motor?
.
Yeah, right. A narrowband is only useful to know when you are close to 14.7 and that's about it. It's practically impossible to know if your AFR is 10 or 13 so I call bullshit on the "tuned very well" part. Maybe it didn't blow up, but that doesn't mean it was "tuned very well".

If you can tune turbo cars with narrowbands, why are you asking us if you can tune your S/Ced car again?
You really should at least borrow a wideband. I tuned my old regal GS on a narrowband too, but it's a crap shoot. Shoot for around 11.5 afr....probably 18* timing max at your boost level.
OP if you would join us on a track day we would be able to help but you seem to go different days when we go. One of the guys in our group has an LM2 wideband.
If you find a local shop, NewTech, Synergy that will do a WOT tune only after a cam swap let me know so I can go smack Nick or Rick.

I've even had to have a re-tune going with a bigger TB so a Cam swap with a blower is playing with fire. :bomb:
 
#15 ·
I don't think he wanted to literally know if he could tune it or not based on our responses.

Sounds like he just wanted a difficulty scale for a newb tuner. That cam is not large and wouldn't take much to get it running smoothly just like any negative overlap cam. I would be more concerned with making sure the WOT fueling is correct after the swap. If no wideband, I say bring it to a trustworthy tuner. Good luck :)
 
#18 ·
Ahh a real response is sure nice to hear :)

No wide band here. Wonder if I could perhaps get a deal on WOT tuning only. Maybe get the idle and low/mid end tuned myself then get the WOT tuned for less $$. Or what about using parts of other peoples tunes with similar setups as a base and fine tune from there as someone else mentioned ?
 
#16 ·
Maybe, I don't understand why he says half shit he does. Probably my fault.
 
#19 ·
It's a stupid question because you are asking other people to use a crystal ball and figure out what your tuning skill level is and somehow tell you whether or not you are competent enough to do something. Only you can know this. However, based on your posts (the only information I have about your skill level), I'd say you are not competent enough to do it. Now don't tell me this "not constructive" because I answered your question, even if it hurt your e-feelers.
 
#23 ·
My point was and still is that you contributed NOTHING constructive to this thread. I was trying to gauge what was required to properly tune a cam like this. Was a very valid question and you just barge in with insults and BS :facepalm: My feelings arent hurt in the least I just see you very clearly for what you are now. Someone who knows a a lot about something and acts like an arrogant, rude child half the time because you didnt get enough attention as a kid :dunno: Didnt anyone teach you if you dont have anything nice to say ...... guess you got the meaning of that lesson backwards :)
 
#30 ·
No shop is going to touch another shops tune. Too many variables there.

Once tuned though any changes or touch ups are by the hour. Corrections/issues of course are free.
 
#28 ·
You definitely should get a wideband on a boosted car, even if you don't tune it yourself. With a supercharger, you want to know ASAP if something goes wrong. If someone else tunes it for you, you still want to know what AFRs it's running, and if the weather affects it or whatever.

So get a wideband and then you can try to tune myself. If it turns out you can't figure it out, you can always go back to the shop. The car will run and be driveable at low throttle with that cam before the retune.
 
#34 ·
Tuning with a narrow band is just blind luck if you happen to get it right and an expensive mistake if you don't. Wide bands give nice smooth outputs and they still have some error. Narrow bands have such a narrow point of any meaning and the tiny voltage difference between is ripe for sensor and and voltage errors.

 
#51 ·
Tuning with a narrow band is just blind luck if you happen to get it right and an expensive mistake if you don't. Wide bands give nice smooth outputs and they still have some error. Narrow bands have such a narrow point of any meaning and the tiny voltage difference between is ripe for sensor and and voltage errors.
 
#35 ·
OP, if you want a "pretty close" tune it's not that hard. With your setup, you don't have to do VE if you don't really want to so it's really just dialing in the fueling and timing. It's been a few months since I messed with mine, but there are tables that need to be tweaked like startup Airflow and airflow minimum, adaptive idle spark over and underspeed may be needed to level your idle out if its searching (this is more necessary on a lower lsa, the car will sway it's timing considerably causing the car to surge up and down)

Honestly, the cam has such a high lsa and large split like stock, so just throw it in, do some fueling tunes to make sure everything is in line and then see where you sit with the tune. You might only need minor tweaks past that. If you need help with getting it to idle right or start correctly (you usually need to raise the airflow minimum tables when you put a larger cam in) you can PM me and I'd be glad to help you out.
 
#41 · (Edited)
Wow, I really appreciate this information, thank you very much. I go back and forth. I like to tweak things, always have. I have HP tuner sitting right here and I enjoyed tuning the tranny on it. I get a little worried when I have a blower at high boost already. I wouldnt know exactly how to start the WOT tuning mainly. That is where it will go boom if it is way out of whack for some reason. I was thinking the same thing for the LS9 cam in particular. Seems like that cam would be pretty doable. Not so sure about Ed Curtis Cam though. He did spec it to be very smooth idling and to be able to pass smog so perhaps it would be doable as well.


I didnt get the HPT that supports wideband ...... I guess I can upgrade to that and get a wide band.

OP if you would join us on a track day we would be able to help but you seem to go different days when we go. One of the guys in our group has an LM2 wideband.

Thank you I appreciate that. As far as the track days I just go when I can actually get away. Having a 5 year old and a wife in school makes that a little more difficult. I hadnt even been to the track in 4-5 years until late this year when I went three times :)
 
#38 ·
OP if you would join us on a track day we would be able to help but you seem to go different days when we go. One of the guys in our group has an LM2 wideband.
 
#44 ·
Why wouldn't you be able to obtain what you are looking for with the stock cam? The LS9 is definitely smooth, but I think what you are looking for can already be had. You can get the idle pretty smooth and you'll stay under the 30whp gain you said was your limit.

The LS9 is definitely an upgrade, but I would spend the money on a wideband and tune the current cam.

If you can install the cam yourself you would spend under $500 for the LS9 cam and a wideband.

I tried tuning my supercharged 3800 with the narrow bands as well. I realized real quick I wasn't getting anywhere with it. I'm by no means an experienced tuner, but I'm literally nothing without the wideband. It's worth it's weight in gold.

If you are ever in the Maryland area you can come by and use my LM2.
 
#45 · (Edited)
The car has a good tune on it right now from a very reputable tuner. Dont think I would gain much by having the stock cam retuned. If I am going to cam it I want at least 30 WHP 40 or 50 would be even better. I can afford a wide band and a new motor or new car for that matter, but like anyone, I try to save money where possible.

I dont think I am going to try and tune it myself wideband or not. I wonder if the cam is even going to get me the kind of SOTP I am looking for anyway. If I can gain a solid 4-5 MPH in trap speeds with a cam ugrade it is worth it, otherwise I might start looking in other directions. I have always really wanted a Twin turbo on this car but $500 smogs arent so great. 250 a year isnt too bad though .... been thinking about a blown C6 too but wife would make me sell the GTO for that. Have her convinced to get a E55 AMG once I sell the 300C though . Just saw a guy at the track who had LT headers, tune, pulley and tires running 10.9@127 MPH :turbonaug Going to the track always makes me want so much more. :bomb:
 
#46 ·
I would get a better cam or a custom grind if those are your goals. After forking $$ for the install and tune, it won't make that big of a difference money-wise and you will get better results. And don't worry about drivability, mild-to-medium blower cams are usually very well-mannered.
 
#47 ·
There is a local member who has a A4 LS2 with LT headers, custom EDC cam, I believe a procharger and he is getting less then stellar results. He just ran at the track with a -200 DA and only trapped 115 MPH which is less then I am on stock cam and shortys .. Plus I have a stall which should lower MPH a little I thought. I did hear he is running low boost but still seems very low as cam only guys are running the same trap speeds. :dunno: Need to find out more about his setup. Maybe he doesnt even have a blower cam and may have a bad tune. I just want a difference I can really feel if I am putting that much money into her. I would think 30-40 WHP would give me a 4+ MPH increase in traps and a happy butt dyno :dunno:
 
#48 ·
Without a wideband , you're not tuning and hand helds pale to a software interface tuner like efi or HP.
 
#50 ·
Yes you are tuning but it makes it more difficult. I have HPT, I only use a handheld for quick scans.
 
#59 ·
This is your opinion. Show proof by providing logs and graphs of transitions and lambda ratio.

OP is only looking for people that will pump him up and agree with him.
 
#58 ·
I heard narrowband tuning and $700 turbos go pretty well together.
 
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