GTO vs. F-Body Quality Question

Yes, yes yet another question about the GTO quality. As a long time Pontiac fan (and three time Firebird owner) I've had some experience with Pontiac and am looking to gauge the quality of the current GTO as compared to my current and previous ownership experience. My 82 Firebird was basically a piece of crap - poor paint, poor motor, poor interior, poor build quality, etc. When I purchased my 95 Trans Am new (6 speed for $22K) I was concerned about a repeat performance, and sadly my concerns were fairly justified. I unloaded it with 57K miles on it right before my extended warranty (note: given to me FREE by Pontiac because of all my troubles) expired. Now to one person a piece of trim falling off is the end of the world, whereas to another that would be nothing. To put my 95 TA issues into perspective, here a list of items that went wrong with it (that I can remember - it has been a while):

Radio went out
Both popup headlight motor gears ground themselves into oblivion
rear intake manifold oil leak
A/C compressor burned up (twice)
HVAC "flaps" under dash misadjusted
rear hatch window seal popped out (oozed sealant as a bonus)
firebird emblems fell off
Ignition Coil pack assembly died
Water pump went out (perhaps twice - I can't remember)
Vibration problem at 80+mph coming from driveline (never was corrected -, but I suspect the rear-end was the ultimate issue).

Many of these items occurred at less than 30K miles.

Man, my memory is bad as I can't even recall the dozen or so other little items. All of this was covered under the original or extended warranty, but I basically had it in the shop every 90 days (for multi-day stints). As a matter of fact, I never took it in for anything small as I only had to wait a month or so for something significant to break and then would have them fix the small things at the same time. The only mods I ever did were a cold air intake and a cat back exhaust. I eventually took the CAI off just becasue i didn't want the dealership (that I visited often) giving me any grief for it. Even though I wasn't out of pocket on these repairs it really soured the ownership experience (and I was prepared to tolerate soem grief for the awesome performance), and just got really inconvenient carting/towing this thing to the dealership.

As a point of comparison, my current ride is a 1997 BMW 328i (5-speed). I puchased it about 5 years ago with 80K miles on it (for $15K) and now have 147K miles on it. I (personally - no one else works on it) have replaced the air pump, fixed a power window clip, replaced the front control arm bushings, lower ball joints, front and rear struts and that's about it (besides normal maintenance). It needs new trailing arm bushings, and I think a new wheel bearing in the rear (that last one will kinda suck). Most of these items hit after the 100K mark, and weren't particulary difficult to do and parts weren't horribly priced (i.e. balljoints were $30 each i think, air pump was $189 - OK that one was kinda high, etc.).

I can tolerate the BMW "issues" over 5 years especially given its age and mileage. Even though I love Pontiacs, my TA actually became a joke to my friends and coworkers because of its chronic issues.

Anyway, am I risking a repeat of my TA items in your humble opinions? the GTO is on my "short list" along with a later model 3 series, or E39 series BMW 540i/6-speed (note: we also own a 2001 530i).

Thanks for listening,

Chris

I've had my 05 for almost three years now. My only issue has been a misaligned front end that caused unusual wear on the front tires. It was fixed under warranty at 2000 miles. since then it has been trouble free.

Compared to F-bodies the GTO build quality is much better, especially the interior. I'd say the only low point as far as quality would be the soft paint. Some guys will probably say the stock stereo and speakers, but mine sounds fine to me.

Bonedriver - how many miles have you got on your car (i.e. just trying to gauge as I know some folks barely drive these things whereas I'll be putting 12-15K miler per year on it)?


Thanks,

Chris

I've not seen anything that major on GTO's but these are new cars.

Common issues we know of:
Strut rub on 17" rim cars (fix with New radius rod and strut bushes, and alignment), but not universal problem.

Ignition cylinder freeze. Warranty fix, also a DIY fix. Pretty intermittent issue.

Bad factory Batteries (Red top FTW anyway).

there may be a few more, but those are the 'big' ones, off the top of my head.

Initial build quality is way higher than an Fbody. OUr interior is held together with a bunch of screws, not cheap clips.

I've only got about 20K on it. It was a daily driver for two years when I was in Texas. Now I live in the mountains in SoCal and have an hour commute to work. The goat stays in the garage during the winter and I drive a beater to work most days to keep the miles off the GTO.

I had a 1998 WS6 TA and when I had the car I overlooked all the squeaks and rattles and crappy plastic trim and all of that. Once I test drove the GTO my love the for the TA in terms of the fit and finish as well as the quality of the build went out the window and in a hurry. The fact that you have the GTO in a short list with BMW says it all really. It is that caliber of build in my opinion for less $$$ as well. There is not a Pontiac or GM (Caddy excluded) car on the market in my opinion that has the build quality of the goat. Holden really has it going on if Pontiac would pay more attention to what they are doing then I think they would sell a lot more cars.

many people's f-bodies were rattle-traps, but my bro and many others are happy with the quality of their f-bodies

Overall, I think the GTO is pretty well built. My wife daily drives an '04 that I bought in September, 2004, and it has not presented any of the usual problems. Nothing has broken on it and it retains its original battery as well as every other original part. No strut rub or abnormally wearing tires. The paint has held up quite well with only one very minor chip on the front clip.

I also have a 2006 that I bought in July, 2007, sitting in the garage. It has fewer than 1k miles with the only issue being the flaking trim on the steering wheel spokes. That will be corrected when I take it in for service.

As with any make, these cars are hit or miss. I say that based on reading about others' issues, not my own. There are some instances where you'll scratch your head wondering how such a cheapish part found its way onto a 30k car.

I love the cars so much that I'm willing to live with whatever I have to deal with. I owned two fourth gen F-bodys (an LT1 Z28 and LS1 WS6), and would rate their build quality as 6 with the GTO being 9. The GTO doesn't necessarily DO everything better than the F-bod, but it is better built. Personally, I don't think it rivals the BMW in build quality, but it should prove as durable and reliable.

I have over 80k on my 05 have had no issues at all.....granted I haven't owned it for the entire 80k but as far as records show, there were no major maintenance issues.

Quote: Originally Posted by LS2BlueGoat... I had a 1998 WS6 TA and when I had the car I overlooked all the squeaks and rattles and crappy plastic trim and all of that. Once I test drove the GTO my love the for the TA in terms of the fit and finish as well as the quality of the build went out the window and in a hurry. The fact that you have the GTO in a short list with BMW says it all really. It is that caliber of build in my opinion for less $$$ as well. There is not a Pontiac or GM (Caddy excluded) car on the market in my opinion that has the build quality of the goat. Holden really has it going on if Pontiac would pay more attention to what they are doing then I think they would sell a lot more cars.

Ditto from a previous owner of 4 f-bodies.

I had quite a few first year probs with my '04 but my '06 so far has only had loose weatherstripping and what I think is a loose belt.

There was a guy on here that went from a BMW to a GTO and put well over a 100K on his before he sold it and he said the BMW was tighter feeling than the GTO.

You'll have bushing replacement with the GTO. I turned in my '04 it had 31K miles and I couldn't believe how much tighter the '06 felt, but after about 1500 miles that tight steering/suspension feeling went away(mostly).

I can tell you though the GTO is three times the car a Fbod is. Tighter body, more comfortable, quieter, better seats, better quality interior, etc.

Quote: Originally Posted by LS2BlueGoat... I had a 1998 WS6 TA and when I had the car I overlooked all the squeaks and rattles and crappy plastic trim and all of that. Once I test drove the GTO my love the for the TA in terms of the fit and finish as well as the quality of the build went out the window and in a hurry. The fact that you have the GTO in a short list with BMW says it all really. It is that caliber of build in my opinion for less $$$ as well. There is not a Pontiac or GM (Caddy excluded) car on the market in my opinion that has the build quality of the goat. Holden really has it going on if Pontiac would pay more attention to what they are doing then I think they would sell a lot more cars.

Bullshit...I had a 76/85and an 01 fbod.....The 85 was a POS but the 76 and the 01 is..and I mean IS better....both of those cars are still on the road today and they never went back to the dealer for so much as a GAS cap lol...The 76 was painted twice and new dash pad/carpet...and rebuilt at 130k, engine only....and is still solid as a rock.


Quality will never ever be a strong point with the GTO......too many shitty cars for that now.

I'll take those drunk Canadians any day over those KOALA killers.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hawkgfr... Bullshit...I had a 76/85and an 01 fbod.....The 85 was a POS but the 76 and the 01 is..and I mean IS better....both of those cars are still on the road today and they never went back to the dealer for so much as a GAS cap lol...The 76 was painted twice and new dash pad/carpet...and rebuilt at 130k, engine only....and is still solid as a rock. Quality will never ever be a strong point with the GTO......too many shitty cars for that now. I'll take those drunk Canadians any day over those KOALA killers.

Put down the crack pipe the F-body interior looks like it was designed at playschool. They are essentially a motor, transmission, seats and steering, what could go wrong with them? The seats looks like they where stolen out of a 75 Pacer. The GTO does have some issues but they lie mostly in the use of more bells and whstles.

All i know is that F body's werent built that solid , one guy i know has blown 8 alternators

Quote: Originally Posted by 99socalfrc... Put down the crack pipe the F-body interior looks like it was designed at playschool. They are essentially a motor, transmission, seats and steering, what could go wrong with them? The seats looks like they where stolen out of a 75 Pacer. The GTO does have some issues but they lie mostly in the use of more bells and whstles.

Well...mine has articulating seats that were confortable and electric....a great stereo and an OIL pressure gage....

Quote: Originally Posted by DDS... All i know is that F body's werent built that solid , one guy i know has blown 8 alternators

ooooohhhhh....I wasn't comparing alternators...

As a previos LT1 F-body owner, and having several friends with LS1 F-bodies I can clearly say the GTO has much better build quality. The interior is 100 times more comfortable, no rattles like the F-body was prone to. Also since you owned an LT1 you should have known of all the typical flaws that most LT1 owners knew about. The 80 mph shake was from the steel driveshaft, a swap with an aluminum drive shaft was the fix. Also my waterpump went out at 60k miles, another typical fix with the LT1, and ofcourse there was the optispark that would go out quickly after your waterpump because it was right under the waterpump. Therefore when the waterpump went out it dripped water and coolant onto the optispark causing it to fail. The 93-95 LT1 F-bodies had non vented optisparks which was changed to a vented design in 95 1/2 when the car switched to OBDII which allowed the water and condensation in the opti to dry out should water and coolant drop in there. Also the rear of the intake manifold was notorious for leaking oil, it was a simple remove and use some liquid gasket to replace it fix. Really I never thought any of these things were an issue they were all simple fixes, but the point being that I bought my 2006 GTO and have never thought about my 97 Z28 since. Its that much better.

I loved my 95 m6 trans-am but you can't compare the cars it's not even close.

Quote: Originally Posted by Blown_Red_97z... As a previos LT1 F-body owner, and having several friends with LS1 F-bodies I can clearly say the GTO has much better build quality. The interior is 100 times more comfortable, no rattles like the F-body was prone to. Also since you owned an LT1 you should have known of all the typical flaws that most LT1 owners knew about. The 80 mph shake was from the steel driveshaft, a swap with an aluminum drive shaft was the fix. Also my waterpump went out at 60k miles, another typical fix with the LT1, and ofcourse there was the optispark that would go out quickly after your waterpump because it was right under the waterpump. Therefore when the waterpump went out it dripped water and coolant onto the optispark causing it to fail. The 93-95 LT1 F-bodies had non vented optisparks which was changed to a vented design in 95 1/2 when the car switched to OBDII which allowed the water and condensation in the opti to dry out should water and coolant drop in there. Also the rear of the intake manifold was notorious for leaking oil, it was a simple remove and use some liquid gasket to replace it fix. Really I never thought any of these things were an issue they were all simple fixes, but the point being that I bought my 2006 GTO and have never thought about my 97 Z28 since. Its that much better.

I didn't think he was talking about 15 year old car with opti spark.... The 99-02 TA's are very good cars....if you don't mind the HUMP.

GTO's have ,(at least some)...decent quality. F-Bodies have no quality. Great cars for making racers out of. But for a quality daily driver... no way no how.

my 2004 gto has 57,000 miles on it, I've used it as a daily driver...I don't now.

The major problems I had with it centered around the radio and I just replaced it w/ aftermarket.

Mechanically pretty much flawless.

No offense, but a 328i is the equivalent to a german honda accord....nice quality car, but overall a bit blah and spartanistic. The GTO is also spartanistic in a way, but the overall driving experience and solid feel to the car are equal to the bmw and drivetrain and engine (in my opinion...but not really, mostly true) are superior in every sense. Easier to work on, LS1 is reliable as hell, more power, more torque, better sound, the auto is better.
I loved the manual in my friends 328i, but truthfully my accord's (prior car) was nice and the honda was also faster.

If you're a car guy (and you definately are since you owned firebirds and a BMW and do your own work) then you will fall in love w/ the GTO.

Holdens are basically what american cars would be like across the board if we didn't have that greeny emissions restrictions scare in the 70's and 80's that stunted the performance and evolution of american built cars in the USA.

Since the GTO is essentially a rebadged holden, shortcomings of pontiacs made by gm here do not apply.

BUY THE GTO!

Quote: Originally Posted by Pont3... Overall, I think the GTO is pretty well built. My wife daily drives an '04 that I bought in September, 2004, and it has not presented any of the usual problems. Nothing has broken on it and it retains its original battery as well as every other original part. No strut rub or abnormally wearing tires. The paint has held up quite well with only one very minor chip on the front clip. I also have a 2006 that I bought in July, 2007, sitting in the garage. It has fewer than 1k miles with the only issue being the flaking trim on the steering wheel spokes. That will be corrected when I take it in for service. As with any make, these cars are hit or miss. I say that based on reading about others' issues, not my own. There are some instances where you'll scratch your head wondering how such a cheapish part found its way onto a 30k car. I love the cars so much that I'm willing to live with whatever I have to deal with. I owned two fourth gen F-bodys (an LT1 Z28 and LS1 WS6), and would rate their build quality as 6 with the GTO being 9. The GTO doesn't necessarily DO everything better than the F-bod, but it is better built. Personally, I don't think it rivals the BMW in build quality, but it should prove as durable and reliable.

ditto 100% my gto has no strut rub, no electrical gremlins (other than the radio, but I always put aftermarket in my cars), rides smooth shifts smooth and has gained power since I've owned it.

Only mods are intake, custom cat-back and now recently tune...but I haven't driven it since as it is in storage for the winter. It dynoed (basically stock minus the mods I mentioned) @ 307 whp

find a 3 series that does THAT!

the only problems i have had
my 04 bad battery at 40k electrial grimlins excessive rear tire wear.....hehe and i think some warped rotors
my 06 the mesterious horn honk and an occasional speedo glitch
no motor/tranny issues, no strut failures, fixed strut rub, and no unusual paint issues

Guys - Thanks this is all good info and very encouraging with regard to the GTO quality. I am a "car guy" as Boston F4$ notes, but I find myself with less and less time to actually work on my cars when something goes wrong (sometimes I wish i didn't know how to fix them!). When I pair that up with the fact that I almost cannot stand taking my cars to a shop (the price is bad enough, but frankly it is the ineptitude that kills me), well - I'm just looking for something that won't break TOO often. Heck, if I had time to work on my cars I'd be working on my 67 Firebird vert (paint and body is next on it).

Boston - With regard to my 328i I do like the way the car handles, and generally performs, but like you I think it is a little unexciting in the interior, and I've always wanted more torque (even with the stick) since day one. An E36 M3 would probably work, but the newest one is 9 years old I guess, and I don't want to pony up for an E46. Frankly, I think I am actually Pontiac's original target demographic for the GTO...which they supposedly targeted at BMW buyers...Hell, I should be their wet dream (i.e. a BMW Buyer with a penchant for Pontaics).

Blown Red 97Z - I became aware of the LT1 issues like every other LT1 owner (as they were occuring). I was on the 4th gen lists pretty early on and Opticraps didn't all go out day one, etc. One of the reasons I felt I had to unload that car was that the parts that were breaking were EXPENSIVE - optispark isn't cheap, pop up headlight motors weren't cheap, a/c compressor(s) weren't cheap - and the aluminum driveshaft "fix" didn't fix my vibration problem (and I was so smug when I brought the dealership the printed TSB for that one). Could I have done the repairs - yep. Should items like this be breaking on a car with less that 30K miles like my TA...um, no.

Based on what you guys have said so far, the issues you are encountering don't seem near as bad as my T/A...so far it looks like the GTO will stay on my short list!

Good decision ... go with the GTO!

You'll love the engine's power and the quality of the interior rivals any 3 Series Bimmer!

I had a '98 Z-28, and traded it in at about 110,000. No problems except for warped front rotors. It was a great car. About 1 1/2 years later, I started looking for a replacement daily driver, and pretty much had decided on a 3 series BMW. I looked at just about everything out there. I saw a GTO, and went and test drove an '06 at a dealer. That was it, and within a couple weeks I had bought a clean, low mileage, gently treated '04 M6 GTO.

The GTO has a far better interior in terms of quality of materials and layout. It drives better as a daily driver, and the seating position is alot better. The back seats are pretty useable (as opposed to the Z-28), and the passenger seat is alot better. I really liked my Z-28, but like the GTO alot more. Plus, the resale on the GTO, like the Z-28 (and unlike the BMWs), is just awful. You should be able to get a pretty great deal. Hope this helps.

good decision!

GTO + full bolt ons + tint + no spoiler = NASTY DD OCCASIONAL TRACK TOY and rarely do you see yourself driving down the road!

Quote: Originally Posted by LS2BlueGoat... I had a 1998 WS6 TA and when I had the car I overlooked all the squeaks and rattles and crappy plastic trim and all of that. Once I test drove the GTO my love the for the TA in terms of the fit and finish as well as the quality of the build went out the window and in a hurry. The fact that you have the GTO in a short list with BMW says it all really. It is that caliber of build in my opinion for less $$$ as well. There is not a Pontiac or GM (Caddy excluded) car on the market in my opinion that has the build quality of the goat. Holden really has it going on if Pontiac would pay more attention to what they are doing then I think they would sell a lot more cars.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my 99 SS but give me the Goat anyday!!!

I'll throw my opinion in here. I currently own the 06 GTO and a 96 Camaro. My wife has a X5. Between the GTO and Camaro I had a 3-Series, an Audi Allroad, a 5-Series, and a X3. If you use number of times a car was in for service as a determining factor, the Camaro is the winner hands down. It was in for non-routine service once for the first 5 years I owned it. The GTO is second, 3 times in the 2 years I have owned it. The Audi and BMW's, lets just say the Audi/BMW service managers and I were on a first name basis, with the Audi being the worst hands down.

If you ask me which cars were the most fun to own and drive, I refer you back to my second sentence, I current own a 96 Camaro and a 2006 GTO.

As a previous owner of 5 Fbody's, I have to say the quality in every department is eons ahead in the GTO. I had the usual battery of issues with my fbodys, nothing big but all annoying. The GTO is a far superior automobile, on par with cars well out of its price range.

My car must have been built on a mondy though, cuz I've had warranty leaking front struts, a new transmission, and misc other small peices of the car, as well as a howling rear end they refuse to fix. Most GTOs don't have a fraction of the issues I've had with mine, and I have never let those small annoyances outshine this wonderful car. But get a warranty just in case .