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Old 05-11-2017, 06:32 PM   #31
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Edelbrock has their Air-Gap intakes for small and big block Chevy engines. The concept looks good at first blush, but before too long that aluminum manifold is going to heat up just the same from general engine heat and being in contact with the block and heads.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:36 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rich-Tripower...View Post
I've been told my ported LS2 is as good as an untouched FAST but I don't know if I believe that or not.

It's not. Member and good friend Dave (BRZN) went from an aggressively ported LS2 to a stock FAST 92. He picked up only a few HP (7 I believe), but quite a bit of torque all thruout the curve. Is that worth it to you? That's up to you.

These cars are a pure hobby for me. I don't care about $$ per HP, so my purchase of a FAST was worth it to me as I just want the best available parts on my car.

I can totally see how that may not be a wise purchase for someone who has a GTO as a daily driver though.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:21 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SkiPopeye36...View Post
It's not. Member and good friend Dave (BRZN) went from an aggressively ported LS2 to a stock FAST 92. He picked up only a few HP (7 I believe), but quite a bit of torque all thruout the curve. Is that worth it to you? That's up to you.

These cars are a pure hobby for me. I don't care about $$ per HP, so my purchase of a FAST was worth it to me as I just want the best available parts on my car.

I can totally see how that may not be a wise purchase for someone who has a GTO as a daily driver though.

Exactly. From what is widely known about the ls2 intake is it has internal leaks that cause issues and a lot of stuff don't line up on the inside that you can't get to. I have no personal experience with this intake but that's lots of hate for it on the web. The dorman should be a good bit better but I'm a little concerned if it's going to pick up power over my ls6 intake. We all know the ls6 is a good intake and can be better with a bigger throttle body hole and bigger throttle body. Supposedly the lsd2 intake is supposed to be the best of both worlds but from what I've seen it needs a little cleaning up out the box. I really need to order my stall so I can put my cam in but I'm very tempted to order the dorman and try it and sell my ls6 if I seen a gain. Plus I could do an intake swap much quicker than a stall and a cam. But a stall an cam are worth much more. Decisions decisions lol
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:26 PM   #34
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Let me ask you guys this:

Would you be interested in a dyno comparison? The only thing is I couldn't do it back to back. I'm not in with any dyno guys that are gonna have the patience to let me swap intakes at their shop. It may be one weekend I base line and the next dyno with the other intake. Not sure how valid this test would be but I might be willing to do.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:23 AM   #35
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Well, any data would be useful on some level but dyno runs a week apart could either mask or exaggerate the change and you wouldn't really know which. The amount of supposed improvement is small enough I'd think that the dyno numbers could change a similar amount from one week to the next without any changes to the engine.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:43 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Abe05GTO...View Post
For the cost of the heat shield it's a low risk gamble. You certainly won't lose any HP by using one.

That's kind of where I am with that. I highly doubt it will yield 15-20 HP, but it certainly isn't going to hurt anything, either.

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Originally Posted by Rich-Tripower...View Post
That was kind of my line of thought. And couldn't you just jam some of that reflective bubble wrap insulation some of us have used to insulate a Vararam under the manifold and get the same effect (if there is any) for about $2?

I still have like 20 feet of the stuff under my workbench.

Just cut to fit. Any sort of reflective, adhesive heat shielding should work.

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Originally Posted by Kfxguy...View Post
Let me ask you guys this:

Would you be interested in a dyno comparison? The only thing is I couldn't do it back to back. I'm not in with any dyno guys that are gonna have the patience to let me swap intakes at their shop. It may be one weekend I base line and the next dyno with the other intake. Not sure how valid this test would be but I might be willing to do.

Being a week apart would cause the armchair mechanics to grab their pitchforks and torches. It isn't like you are getting paid to do this, so any comparison would be appreciated. However, swapping intakes on these engines takes 20 minutes, so the shop may allow you to do it off the dyno.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:15 AM   #37
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If i were going to do a heatsheild, i would research what the best material would be to insulate.

I'm sure slapping a layer of frost king on the bottom of the intake won't help as much as you would want it to.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:19 AM   #38
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I mean we are dealing with convective and conductive heat transfer, not just radiant...
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:31 AM   #39
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I wonder if thin phenolic sheet could be cut to shape and you could slap some dei tape on one side.

You could probably make a spacer for the heads, too.
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:06 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Nothubertjfarnsworth...View Post
If i were going to do a heatsheild, i would research what the best material would be to insulate.

I'm sure slapping a layer of frost king on the bottom of the intake won't help as much as you would want it to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothubertjfarnsworth...View Post
I mean we are dealing with convective and conductive heat transfer, not just radiant...

Gee, If only a company called "Heat Shield Products" who might be an expert in these sorts of things would come up with a product for our cars...



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Old 05-12-2017, 09:54 AM   #41
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Gee, If only a company called "Heat Shield Products" who might be looking to make a quick buck with an overhyped product they paid a magazine to publish inflated dyno numbers to advertise for would come up with a product for our cars...




Yeah, you're right.

But seriously, it can be fun figuring something else for yourself.
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:04 AM   #42
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Cheap heat reflective materials = . If it was good / had a purpose, car manufactures would be using them.

Oh but gold reflects radiant heat so well, none of those products "gold tape" contain actual gold in them and nearly all those products use an adhesion which breaks down at 250F rendering them useless AND ugly.

When it comes to radiant heat in an engine bay, I doubt there is anything you can do (affordably). Now methods of transferring heat conventionally, that I can understand.


GTOs lead to modding
Modding leads to money loss
Money loss leads to reflective heat materials
Reflective heat materials leads to the Ricer side
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Old 05-12-2017, 12:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by DangerNoodle...View Post
Cheap heat reflective materials = . If it was good / had a purpose, car manufactures would be using them.

Oh but gold reflects radiant heat so well, none of those products "gold tape" contain actual gold in them and nearly all those products use an adhesion which breaks down at 250F rendering them useless AND ugly.

When it comes to radiant heat in an engine bay, I doubt there is anything you can do (affordably). Now methods of transferring heat conventionally, that I can understand.


GTOs lead to modding
Modding leads to money loss
Money loss leads to reflective heat materials
Reflective heat materials leads to the Ricer side

I agree to an extent. however, this isn't always the case. sometimes manufacturers cost cut in strange ways. i think many times they simply don't care about that extra 1.5 horsepower to spend the extra 12 bucks a car to add the part--unless it is a specific design goal. it's obvious with many cars, GTO included, that maximum possible performance was not a design goal. it was "let's take a grand tourer that was ripped off from opel and shove a bigger motor in it, rebadge it, and sell it in the shortest time possible."

anyway, car manufactures already use heat shielding in lots of places. stock exhaust manifolds, firewalls, around the bottom of the car near the exhaust piping and converters, etc. it's not that they don't work...

my argument against the part, is this:

reflective materials work well as barriers against radiant heat. radiant heat is transmitted via electromagnetic radiation, and if you can reflect it instead of absorb it, then there you go. they don't really work well to prevent convective or conductive transfer, though. the intake manifold is being hit with all 3 types. being so close to the intake valley and also being directly attached to the heads poses the most problem, imho.

there are plenty of aftermarket options that help with radiant heat, that are proven. exhaust wrap and ceramic coating, for example, work well. there are folks on the forum that have tried reflective materials on their intake tracts that report a measure of success. if you think it makes you look ricer, then don't open your hood around people i guess? it's not a 10 foot biplane wing.

if there is proof that it actually has a benefit, then by all means, use it. if there isn't, by all means, find some.

i would take lowered intake manifold temps as proof, in some kind of controlled variable yet real-world condition, in lieu of dyno numbers. both the manufacturers website and the article show it, but that could all be inflated claims. objective proof is worth more.
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Old 05-13-2017, 08:08 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuhThugga...View Post

Being a week apart would cause the armchair mechanics to grab their pitchforks and torches. It isn't like you are getting paid to do this, so any comparison would be appreciated. However, swapping intakes on these engines takes 20 minutes, so the shop may allow you to do it off the dyno.

I know. I was figuring I'd get beat up on, called out, doubted and everything else in between. I don't know what I'm going to do just yet. I wouldn't install the intake untouched either, it would be cleaned up so I'm sure some people would call that unfair too. The only thing I'm after is making that car as fast as I can as cheaply as I can.

I used to be cool with the owners of thunder racing and I'd be able to swap intakes there because they were in to that kind of of stuff but they are no longer around and I've been out the game for quite a while. Only Dyno's I know of around here are futral (won't go dyno my car there) and stang hi, a mustang shop. It's directly across the street from my work so that may be a better option anyway.
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:35 AM   #45
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The way I look at it is that you don't owe the internet a damn thing. So, while the keyboard warriors will get up in arms over any test you spend personal time to perform, the comparison will ultimately help you see if you made any gains on your car. Dorman certainly isn't paying you to test their shit, so bolt it on, throw it on the rollers, and see what happens.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by MuhThugga...View Post
The way I look at it is that you don't owe the internet a damn thing. So, while the keyboard warriors will get up in arms over any test you spend personal time to perform, the comparison will ultimately help you see if you made any gains on your car. Dorman certainly isn't paying you to test their shit, so bolt it on, throw it on the rollers, and see what happens.

So very true. The thing is we are all guilty of not thinking before we post and condemning the guy forking out the money and posting his findings. I honestly don't care what my car Dyno's at as long as it runs what I want it to in the 1/4. If I do dyno before and after I will post up what I find and if it's not on the same day then so be it. If I see a 20hp difference then I'll know there was a difference but it may not be exactly 20hp because of weather differences
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:51 AM   #47
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Whatever the case, I'd be interested to see a stock LS2 to a Dorman LS2 comparison.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:55 AM   #48
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Whatever the case, I'd be interested to see a stock LS2 to a Dorman LS2 comparison.

And an untouched LS6
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:03 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-Tripower...View Post
Whatever the case, I'd be interested to see a stock LS2 to a Dorman LS2 comparison.

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Originally Posted by cookmeup272...View Post
And an untouched LS6

Annnnnd a stock TBSS.







All compared against each other on a LS1.
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Old 05-15-2017, 05:25 AM   #50
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Well that was already done in the test on LS1Tech

EDIT: Alright well I missed your fine print but still
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:29 AM   #51
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Posted this on ls1tech also


Ok fellas, I got a email from rock auto letting me know they got some dorman 615-901's in. How I have no idea because dorman told me two days ago that they wouldn't have any more in till the end of the month, so we shall see. I have a feeling I'll get a notification that I'm getting a refund or these are on back order. $328 shipped I couldn't pass it up tho. I could get it in town for $297 but they won't have any more in till next month, and patience isn't something I have so......


I want to try and run the car at the track as it is now then put the manifold on and retune and run again. I'm not going to dyno any time soon so that's all I'll have for now. I plan on cleaning up the airflow restrictions I've seen in pictures so my comparison will not be an out of the box manifold.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:33 AM   #52
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Back to the heatshield thing. I was bored the other night and made up a heatshield and my janky tests seem to indicate it will at least do some insulating.

The first layer is aluminum tape, the next is strips of header wrap topped with another layer of aluminum tape to hold the wrap into a solid piece. That then is topped with a layer of that aluminized bubblewrap stuff. Once I had the shield built I tested by laying it on a hot engine (on my daily after I got home from work). I found if I laid it on the engine with the header wrap side down, the bubble wrap side barely got warm to the touch. If I laid it the other way up the top side, the side that would face the LS2 intake manifold, got really hot to the touch due to high conductivity of the tape and the lack of conductivity of the underlying header wrap. So, when I install it I'll install it with the bubblewrap stuff towards the manifold.

The last test I did was to put the shield on a hot engine, placed my spare LS2 intake on top of the shield. After it sat there heat soaking for 20 minutes the inside of the manifold was barely more than room temp on in the inside. In fact, the top side of the manifold was warmer than the inside or underside.

Are these tests really that telling? Well, maybe only kind of. Will it make much difference on the engine? I doubt it, but I'm going to install it anyway. I'll do some before and after temp measurements like they did in the article linked to earlier. All in I probably have about $1.50 in materials in this thing so really all I have invested is a little bit of time.
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:17 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-Tripower...View Post
Back to the heatshield thing. I was bored the other night and made up a heatshield and my janky tests seem to indicate it will at least do some insulating.

The first layer is aluminum tape, the next is strips of header wrap topped with another layer of aluminum tape to hold the wrap into a solid piece. That then is topped with a layer of that aluminized bubblewrap stuff. Once I had the shield built I tested by laying it on a hot engine (on my daily after I got home from work). I found if I laid it on the engine with the header wrap side down, the bubble wrap side barely got warm to the touch. If I laid it the other way up the top side, the side that would face the LS2 intake manifold, got really hot to the touch due to high conductivity of the tape and the lack of conductivity of the underlying header wrap. So, when I install it I'll install it with the bubblewrap stuff towards the manifold.

The last test I did was to put the shield on a hot engine, placed my spare LS2 intake on top of the shield. After it sat there heat soaking for 20 minutes the inside of the manifold was barely more than room temp on in the inside. In fact, the top side of the manifold was warmer than the inside or underside.

Are these tests really that telling? Well, maybe only kind of. Will it make much difference on the engine? I doubt it, but I'm going to install it anyway. I'll do some before and after temp measurements like they did in the article linked to earlier. All in I probably have about $1.50 in materials in this thing so really all I have invested is a little bit of time.

Cool beans!
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:59 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Rich-Tripower...View Post
Back to the heatshield thing. I was bored the other night and made up a heatshield and my janky tests seem to indicate it will at least do some insulating.

The first layer is aluminum tape, the next is strips of header wrap topped with another layer of aluminum tape to hold the wrap into a solid piece. That then is topped with a layer of that aluminized bubblewrap stuff. Once I had the shield built I tested by laying it on a hot engine (on my daily after I got home from work). I found if I laid it on the engine with the header wrap side down, the bubble wrap side barely got warm to the touch. If I laid it the other way up the top side, the side that would face the LS2 intake manifold, got really hot to the touch due to high conductivity of the tape and the lack of conductivity of the underlying header wrap. So, when I install it I'll install it with the bubblewrap stuff towards the manifold.

The last test I did was to put the shield on a hot engine, placed my spare LS2 intake on top of the shield. After it sat there heat soaking for 20 minutes the inside of the manifold was barely more than room temp on in the inside. In fact, the top side of the manifold was warmer than the inside or underside.

Are these tests really that telling? Well, maybe only kind of. Will it make much difference on the engine? I doubt it, but I'm going to install it anyway. I'll do some before and after temp measurements like they did in the article linked to earlier. All in I probably have about $1.50 in materials in this thing so really all I have invested is a little bit of time.

I'm lazy and I just bought the heat shield. I'll install it tomorrow before I go to the tuner on Sunday.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:12 PM   #55
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Are you guys riding around with your hoods off? If not it's going to heat up just the same I'd imagine. Just for kicks do this: drive to work or home from work. Have a temp gun handy. Check the temps in several locations. Write it down. Key....write it down. Then do your manifold swap and add your heat shield. Repeat. Report back. I predict not enough difference for the effort. Something else to ponder. When air is rushing into your engine, under wot, do you think the air has a chance to be heated up by the intake that quickly? Too bad there's not temp sensors in the intake ports on the head because that would tell the true story. I'm pretty sure once the air is in the cylinder head port that it's getting heated by that hot aluminum. Morel of my prediction, the intake temp likely has less to do with air temp than cylinder head temps and air temperature coming into the motor. Just my .02
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:33 AM   #56
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:26 AM   #57
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Are you guys riding around with your hoods off? Something else to ponder...

...When air is rushing into your engine, under wot, do you think the air has a chance to be heated up by the intake that quickly? Too bad there's not temp sensors in the intake ports on the head because that would tell the true story. I'm pretty sure once the air is in the cylinder head port that it's getting heated by that hot aluminum.

1. No but I have a cool air intake (DuSpeed) that funnels air that is cooler than under hood temperatures directly into the throttle body.

2. The air spends more time in the intake manifold than it does in the cylinder heads and there is far more surface area in the intake manifold that in the ports have so that time in the intake should not be considered lightly. You're not wrong in regard to the ports adding heat but if they add heat to cooler air then the air will still be cooler than it would have otherwise been when it gets into the combustion chamber.


Getting cooler air into the combustion chamber is the goal and any way we can accomplish that is good. The cooler the surfaces of whatever the air comes into contact with, the cooler the air itself will be.
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Old 05-20-2017, 08:51 AM   #58
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1. No but I have a cool air intake (DuSpeed) that funnels air that is cooler than under hood temperatures directly into the throttle body.

2. The air spends more time in the intake manifold than it does in the cylinder heads and there is far more surface area in the intake manifold that in the ports have so that time in the intake should not be considered lightly. You're not wrong in regard to the ports adding heat but if they add heat to cooler air then the air will still be cooler than it would have otherwise been when it gets into the combustion chamber.


Getting cooler air into the combustion chamber is the goal and any way we can accomplish that is good. The cooler the surfaces of whatever the air comes into contact with, the cooler the air itself will be.

Heat will be transferred from the surroundings to intake air no matter what. Time spent in contact with the surroundings matters, of course, but so does heat differential.

The air will heat up on its way to the combustion chamber. Goal is to minimize how much heat energy is transferred before it gets there.

Now, that being said, this is an "every little bit counts" mod. Air spends fractions of a second in contact with the intake pathway from filter to combustion chamber. Heat transfer exists, but we need to establish at what point we consider it negligible, i.e. when is it not worth it to mess with?
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:34 AM   #59
treyelchivo
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Biggest joke ever. The freakin hot air from exhaust and radiator is completely surrounding the intake. That little shield is a joke.
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Old 05-20-2017, 11:22 AM   #60
Nothubertjfarnsworth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treyelchivo...View Post
Biggest joke ever. The freakin hot air from exhaust and radiator is completely surrounding the intake. That little shield is a joke.

heat energy is coming from multiple areas in the engine bay. as discussed before, we have radiative, conductive, and convective. the engine, radiator, and exhaust manifolds are the primary contributors.

of the three types, i would bet conductive is probably the greatest contributor.

only the top of the plenum is exposed to air that has been heated by the radiator/exhaust... the rest of the external surface area is presented to the heads and engine valley cover. it actually touches the heads, and not the valley cover, but it is pretty close...

with the car in motion, air is exhanged out of the engine bay through the bottom, and possibly out of the top (through hood scoops and PERHAPS the cowl area if it isn't sealed with weatherstripping, although the cowl area is technically a higher pressure area and might not contribute to engine bay airflow...) i would worry more about heat soaking the intake manifold from air convection while the engine sitting rather than with it in motion.

anyhow, as i said, this is an "every little bit helps" mod.

my bet is that insulating the bottom of the intake helps to stall heatsoaking, which is better than nothing. i have experimented with reflective materials on intake tracts on other vehicles, and in my experience, intakes still get heatsoaked, but it does take longer. it works, but it isn't magic--laws of thermodynamics still apply here.

add in other tricks to draw air from as close to ambient as possible, increase engine bay airflow, decrease air exit temp out of the radiator (lower temp thermostats, although you really don't want to go below 170-180 degrees), insulating the intake tract, insulating the exhaust manifolds/headers with coatings and wrap, etc... and you arrive at a better overall picture of a system that allows for cooler intake air temps.

i wouldn't spend 60 bucks on a small peice of reflective material, but the idea is sound. i just wouldn't buy into any idea that it works wonders and adds 20 horsepower.
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