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Old 12-16-2006, 03:35 PM   #1
dms
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Photos showing bad strut bushings and tire damage

There is another post I made that does a fine job of discussing strut bushing failures and the affects it has on tire wear

I have added about 7-8 pictures to my Pedders web shot site that is a pictorial of cause and affect. GM is aware of issues with collapsing strut bushings but there are no bulletins about it. There are TAC cases on it.

The GTO they came out of had about 16000 miles and on their 2nd set of tires. There were noise complaints when hitting bumps or going in/out of driveways.

What is great about the pictures is the reference pictures of good versus bad bushings. Unless you are a GTO gunky like me, thee are no Pontiac dealers out there that would know the difference between a good versus bad strut bushing unless they are tearing like the ones in the pictures. A brand new OE strut bushing is approx 57mm tall. A picture with a tape measure will show it.

I have only seen 1 set of strut bushings that were not collapsed. I feel it is casued from the shipping process getting them to the USA

Here is the link.

http://rides.webshots.com/album/5201...ions/FullAlbum

If someone could put the pictures on this link, that would be great. I do not know how to reduce the size so it will work. Sorry. I might know GTOs, but I have issues with computers!!

So check them out, and lets chat about it

mike
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Old 12-16-2006, 04:11 PM   #2
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The other thing is that with collapsed strut bushings you typically will have damaged the strut bearings that sit underneath the bushing.







Last edited by 1stGOAT; 12-16-2006 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 12-16-2006, 04:11 PM   #3
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That is just crazy. Those bent sway bar links are nuts too. Thanks for showing us Mike.
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Old 12-16-2006, 04:12 PM   #4
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Nice software 1stGOAT.

Very happy with my new strut top bushes.

I am stopping right here.
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Old 12-16-2006, 04:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
So check them out, and lets chat about it

Mike,
The photo caption of the strut rub picture "Major contact due to collapsed strut bushing" is incorrect.
Quote:
Notice my finger is pointing to the rubber from the tire collectin on the strut. When jouncing cnegative camber increases and here is the proof

The wheel to strut relation is not dependent on the strut bushing.
The wheel rub condition is only dependent on the wheel, spindle, and the strut. The strut bushing is not going to fix the problem of wheel rubbing on the lower perch of the struts.
BTW, thanks for the photos.
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Old 12-16-2006, 05:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis...View Post
Mike,
The photo caption of the strut rub picture "Major contact due to collapsed strut bushing" is incorrect.


The wheel to strut relation is not dependent on the strut bushing.
The wheel rub condition is only dependent on the wheel, spindle, and the strut. The strut bushing is not going to fix the problem of wheel rubbing on the lower perch of the struts.
BTW, thanks for the photos.
Dennis

ennis I do aggree with you. However, my rational, and it could be flawed, but the camber on this vehicle goes quite negative on a jounce. I am thinking this is putting abnormal stress on the tread, causing the the tire to squirm more. There was alsmot 1/4 of an inch of clearace between the tire and strut when in the air and the tires had 35psi tire pressures. After doing the sturt bushings, there was no more contact. So the only variable was the bushings

mike
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Old 12-16-2006, 05:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stGOAT...View Post
The other thing is that with collapsed strut bushings you typically will have damaged the strut bearings that sit underneath the bushing.







Thanks so much for your help. You guys are great
mike
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Old 12-16-2006, 05:43 PM   #8
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No Mike, thank you, and your great!
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Old 12-16-2006, 11:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis...View Post
Mike,
The photo caption of the strut rub picture "Major contact due to collapsed strut bushing" is incorrect.


The wheel to strut relation is not dependent on the strut bushing.
The wheel rub condition is only dependent on the wheel, spindle, and the strut. The strut bushing is not going to fix the problem of wheel rubbing on the lower perch of the struts.
BTW, thanks for the photos.
Dennis

Hmmm..............why do you say there is no relation. I believe that the angle between the spindle and strut is adjustable as in adjustable strut top and that you can indeed move the strut toward or away from the tire. He is not saying that collapsed bushings "drop" the strut down, rather it allow additional lateral movement of the top of the strut which will allow the strut to swing out to the already very close tire. Number of folks use adjustable strut mounts to swing it away from the tire for extra clearance.

Last edited by 1stGOAT; 12-17-2006 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 12-17-2006, 08:14 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by 1stGOAT...View Post
Hmmm..............why do you say there is no relation. I believe that the angle between the spindle and strut is adjustable as in adjustable strut top and that you can indeed move the strut toward or away from the tire. He is not saying that collapsed bushings "drop" the strut down, rather it allow additional lateral movement of the top of the strut which will allow the strut to swing out to the already very close tire. Number of folks use adjustable strut mounts to swing it away from the tire for extra clearance.

Dennis is correct. The relationship between the wheel and strut is dependent on the adjustment of the clevis bolts. Typically moving the top bushing to make te strut a different angle, automatically changes the relationship between the strut and the knucke. So you would think the distance between the tire and strut would stay the same.

With the pictures above, there was at least 1/4 inch clearance between the strut and the tire. But under a jounce situation, the front negative cambers went way above -1.5. from the -.5 to -.7 with stock wheels. Since all we did was replace the damaged strut bushings, then rechecked, we had no more rub. I am speculating that the strut rub could be caused by putting so much stress on the inside tire edge, and on a corner, that the sidewalls will have more stress and flex, and give a lot more in the tires and significantly increase squirm. Now the only other variable here is the damage occurred when then the tires were severely underinflated. But the customer was running 35 psi and upon review with him, he said he always runs 35psi and they were never run low.

the tires were new so it is hard to say what tread wear was occuring. But typically, you would see negative cambers increase, casuing excess inner tire wear and when it changes due to the bushing not being able to hold the struts position, this may cause cupping; again, another common front tire issue.

Now when installing a brand new OE front strut bushing, when you pick it up the GTO in the air, you can still see the bushing collapse (moves down and the big ring contacts the inner fender) On a Pedders unit, it just rotates as it was designed and does not collapse like the OE.

The Pedders bushiung is significantly more heavy duty than GMs with larger contact areas, and the ferrile in the center is larger, to allow a better bonding between the rubber and the metal to reduce the tearing issues that the OE has.

We did the nut test on the bushings before removing. One side we rotated the nut 90 degrees and it sprung back perfectly, and the other side did not spring back at all. Both bushings were equally collapsed and tearing on the inside.

The biggest issue I see and the best help I can give all of you was the picture documentation I have supplied. You can print this and show the dealerships the measurements of a good strut bushing and how it is suppose to look like. There is no info about this bushing in SI. There is no labor op to replace this bushing The most common failure I have seen is the center section sticking above the outer section. Seeing the pictures, you can see what it is suppose to look like. I can tell you almost every OEM strut bushing out there is partially collapsed due to the shiping, strapping, of the GTO which puts great upwards force on the bushing for for a long time.

mike
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Old 12-17-2006, 03:10 PM   #11
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I have the exact tire tread wear problem you have pictured, inner 1" of tread gone....I just bought the Pedders GTO Justice kit, I'm sick and tired of going to dealer and being told my alignment is "Within Spec", I'm on my second set of front tires. I just need to find somewhere to have it aligned once I install the kit.
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Old 12-17-2006, 08:49 PM   #12
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Ok..stupid question here. Where is the strut bushing located,..is it hard to put in? After i put new ones on will i have to have my car aligned? I Bought and installed myself thus far, new rear shock and struts from Pedders and new front radious arm bushing. So far, it doesn't feel or seem like it needs and alignemnt from those new parts being installed. I also bought some new rear sway bar bushing,..installed the little one, but the two bigger ones were going to be too much of a headache to get to, so i left the stock ones on.
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Old 12-17-2006, 09:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loosecannon...View Post
Ok..stupid question here. Where is the strut bushing located,..is it hard to put in? After i put new ones on will i have to have my car aligned? I Bought and installed myself thus far, new rear shock and struts from Pedders and new front radious arm bushing. So far, it doesn't feel or seem like it needs and alignemnt from those new parts being installed. I also bought some new rear sway bar bushing,..installed the little one, but the two bigger ones were going to be too much of a headache to get to, so i left the stock ones on.

The strut bushing is attached to the strut and is the contact to the body

mike
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:08 AM   #14
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How hard of an install is this? And will I have to get my car aligned after this?
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:35 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by blkgoat05...View Post
How hard of an install is this? And will I have to get my car aligned after this?

Doing them is almost like doing struts or springs. Yes, you need an alignment afterwards.

mike
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Old 12-18-2006, 11:34 AM   #16
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Why doesn't GM cover the labor for this 'repair' if its so common?

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Old 12-18-2006, 12:30 PM   #17
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Old 12-18-2006, 12:44 PM   #18
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all in all - how much will this cost in the end to get the correc suspension with least amount spent?
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Old 12-18-2006, 04:42 PM   #19
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How can I tell if the bushings are bad? I have smiliar tire wear. I assumed it was just out of alignment and had the front aligned. Camber was off quite a bit.
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Old 12-18-2006, 05:30 PM   #20
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holy crap i just went up to 19 in rims so now ill really have to keep an eye on them! my car only had 3000 mls on it and it needed an alignment so the dealer did it and it made a big difference in how the car handeld and im glad that got done but now i must watch for the rub. hey mike do you know wheres a good place to get the pedders strut tower brace? how much?
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Old 12-18-2006, 05:38 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loosecannon...View Post
Ok..stupid question here. Where is the strut bushing located,..is it hard to put in? After i put new ones on will i have to have my car aligned? I Bought and installed myself thus far, new rear shock and struts from Pedders and new front radious arm bushing. So far, it doesn't feel or seem like it needs and alignemnt from those new parts being installed. I also bought some new rear sway bar bushing,..installed the little one, but the two bigger ones were going to be too much of a headache to get to, so i left the stock ones on.


Last edited by 1stGOAT; 12-18-2006 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 12-18-2006, 06:22 PM   #22
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You guys are doing a GREAT job in this thread. All I have to say is well done.
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Old 12-18-2006, 06:28 PM   #23
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Based on that diagram, it doesn't look like the problem can be diagnosed without disassembly. Can anyone confirm?
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Old 12-18-2006, 10:51 PM   #24
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Based on that diagram, it doesn't look like the problem can be diagnosed without disassembly. Can anyone confirm?

MMMmmmm.... pretty much. I think if you worked around GTO's on a regular basis you "might" be able to see it on top with excess movement but the key is knowing what is normal and what is not.

Not hard to take apart really. Like I posted, mine were shot by 15K and the car was not driven hard at all. My point is that the parts are notorious for premature failure, the replacement Pedders parts are cheap and it is possible to do the install yourself with a few normal tools, jack and jackstands. Just need to borrow spring compressors from Auto Zone (they loan them).
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Old 12-20-2006, 05:57 PM   #25
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What do you think?

Mike and the rest,

I spun the top strut nut and it seemed to return fine but look at my attached photos of the tire wear I have. I just put the stock rims on for the winter and am worried. Any diagnosis would be helpful and I'll be calling Frank Beck tomorrow.

RF Tire Wear.jpg

RT Front.jpg

Thanks,

Steve
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Old 12-20-2006, 09:32 PM   #26
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Mike and the rest,

I spun the top strut nut and it seemed to return fine but look at my attached photos of the tire wear I have. I just put the stock rims on for the winter and am worried. Any diagnosis would be helpful and I'll be calling Frank Beck tomorrow.

Thanks,

Steve

There are three major things going on here.

1. When did you last check your tire pressure, and when was your tire pressure gauge last calibrated to what standard?

I will bet you five bucks your tires are really at about 32psi right now, even if you checked them yesterday with a guage more than two months old. Check your owners manual.

I got the tire pressure religion about six months ago and I hope you get it too.

2. Driving in a spirited manner. The MacStrut suspension is a cheap solution that works well for little old ladies who idle over to the grocery store in '2' on Saturday and idle in 'D' to church on Sunday. Exit a corner in a GTO looking for your friend Mr. Rev Limiter in any gear and you are WAY beyond the inherent capabilites of the MacStrut design.

3. Squishy factory bushings. Upgrading your bushings will help. However, you could install special golden bushings made by magic elves, run your tires in a spirited fashion at 32psi, and post exactly the same picture you just posted.

So you go into a spirited corner with MacStruts, underinflated tires and squishy bushings, what happens? The body of the car rolls to the outside of the turn. You get weight transfer inboard to outboard. The front outboard tire goes from say -0.3 camber to say +1.5 camber, but it has 3/4 of the weight of the front half of the car pushing down on it, so the contact patch stays OK though the outside band of treadblocks hears up more than the inside. On the front inner though, your camber goes from -0.3 to, in this case, -1.8 with only 1/4 of the weight of the front of the car. That front inner rides right up on the corner, and the underinflation makes it worse and hotter, the squishy bushings make it worse and hotter, and you get what we have here today.

So there are five thigns you can do, least expensive to most expensive:

1. Search on Google instead of ls1gto about inner treadwear. You'll find VW, Audi, Porsche, Ford, Honda...

2. Take all future corners in the GTO at walking speed so there is no more body roll.

3. Buy a new tire pressure gauge every two months, and wear that SOB out. $2.99 a pop, 6 times, how much gas you gonna buy for $18 in December 2007?

4. Upgrade your bushings.

5. Cut the snout off your GTO, weld in the front clip off a late F-body or Corvette, and rehang the GTO sheet metal. If you can get some unequal length A-arms under there a lot of this will go away.

EDIT: I know, I know, I said in post whatever, this thread, that I was going to keep my mouth shut so Mike could run his own thread, but I, I, well officer, I am busted...


Subaru, BMW,...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripped from another site without credit...
I'm getting extremely severe wear on the inside shoulder of the front tires on my Audi A4 (with Quattro, if that matters.) The wear is severe enough that the tire's worn down to the steel belt on the extreme edge of the inner shoulder, but isn't even worn down to the wear bars anywhere else.


Last edited by swmn; 12-20-2006 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:08 PM   #27
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doing ther spin test is not 100% accurate. If it does not return, then it is definately bad. But I have seen them collpased and torn and still return ok.

One thing I think is possible to do is with the tires on the ground, remove the cap, then nut, then big washer to look in and see thetop of the strut bushing.
DO NOT LIFT THE VEHICLE UP AT THIS PIONT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look down and see if the center section of the strut mount is higher than the outer section. If it is, it is definately bad.

Now the nut that is removed is one of those 1 time nuts and very hard to get from GM

Mike
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:12 PM   #28
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I got the tire pressure religion about six months ago and I hope you get it too.


3. Buy a new tire pressure gauge every two months, and wear that SOB out. $2.99 a pop, 6 times, how much gas you gonna buy for $18 in December 2007?

.

Those cheap gauges are junk. I have seen different readings from the several that I used to have. Get a good dial gauge. I got this one from Summit for $22:

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Mine differs in that it is 0-45lbs. Each hashmark is .5lbs. The black surround is
a rubber shock absorber and the end is a chuck, like you see
on a air setup at the tire shop. The dial also glows pretty bright in the dark.
I have used cheap dial, pencil gauges and this one so far is the best.
The tires on a GTO can cost over $700. Why trust a cheap gauge to tell you how much pressure is in there? To paraphrase a manager I had when I was a tire jockey "Many have complained about spending little money on cheap tools, but no one ever has complained of spending more money on quality tools that last and work real well."

Last edited by dsclark; 12-20-2006 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:23 PM   #29
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Those cheap gauges are junk.

I have asked the PI (primary investigator) on this one, twice, to start the new thread this research deserves:

Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymously from my PM box...
i've been reading your threads regarding suspensions and corner weights and remember you were looking for a good tire gauge. i've found the following two threads to be useful.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...51&Main=730664
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef017dc/0

based on these recommendations i decided to go with this one for $9.99 and free shipping from amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Accutire-MS-40...440046?ie=UTF8

previously, i was dead-set on a dial-type from meiser or longacre, but this is reported to be more durable and in the test above it performed perfectly from 25-100psi.

For now I have been running the cheapies against three local gas stations. The cheap ones are 'good' for about two months, tops. Haven't personally pulled the trigger on a digital yet.

Sorry for the highjack Mike. I agree with you that the the OE strut top bushes suck @55.

S

EDIT: I agree with dsclark re: cheap tools.
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Old 12-20-2006, 11:02 PM   #30
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For now I have been running the cheapies against three local gas stations. The cheap ones are 'good' for about two months, tops. Haven't personally pulled the trigger on a digital yet.

Sorry for the highjack Mike. I agree with you that the the OE strut top bushes suck @55.

S

EDIT: I agree with dsclark re: cheap tools.

The gauges at the stations suck. I have tried a few digital gauges (I own one I got for $14 from I forgot where- but it sucks!) get a good dial one- I am looking at my Rebco and dang, it looks good, works well and is real, real accurate!
Back to strut mounts, I haven't replaced mine yet as it has been in the low thirties during the day, my younger daughter has had the flu and we will be going to New Orleans tomorrow for a Xmas cruise aboard the Golden Princess. In my desk drawer is a Pedders strut mount, eagerly awaiting the day I go into my cold garage. I will say that that the rubber on the Pedders is real, real hard. I have no idea of what the stocker is like, but the hardness of the of the rubber in the Pedders mount is really encouraging. Looking at the new pedder lower control arm rubber bushing, if this is made from rubber from similar durometer, it could be a darn nice bushing.
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