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How To: 4L60/65E trans tuning. Shifting/TCC/TM (w/ Pics)

145K views 52 replies 27 participants last post by  dansgoat 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Disclaimer: I (CoolAid) as well as LS2GTO.com (AutoForums) will NOT be held responsible for nor claim responsibility for damage to a vehicle or loss of any warranty coverage from members or guests that use this GUIDE. Use this How To as a guide and reference ONLY. Do not directly copy numbers or values into your tune from this write-up without knowing what you are changing first! That being said, every vehicle is different. As such, every driver is also different. Expectations of drivability or performance will VARY so once again, use this write-up as a GUIDE and adjust your tables and tune to suit YOU and your goals/expectations.

The software I will use in this write-up is HP Tuners. Excellent product and resident board sponsor (http://www.hptuners.com). I'll be using 2.23 BETA for this write up which isn't generally available for the mass public yet.



The current stable release listed on the site is 2.22, so you may see some tables or variables in my pics that don't completely match up with yours if you using 2.22. The general idea remains the same, however. TCC apply/release speed is TCC apply/release speed across all platforms so this guide can be used to help with EFI Live as well. The tunes I will be comparing in this guide are my bone stock 2006 A4 file and my current modified file.

My trans specs:
-4L65E fully built by Top Gear Motorsports.
-Stall: 4,200 billet 254mm (9 3/4'') single disk built by Circle D Specialties.

A little info to set the pace of this thread: My car is not a DD. I am going to use my tune/car as a reference in this thread and you may see some settings that are too harsh for a DD or "occasional" fun car. With me performance and reliability come first, ride/shift comfort is a very distant afterthought. That's what crappy beaters with good MPG are for. Anyway, let's continue.

First and foremost:
SAVE A COPY OF YOUR STOCK/CURRENT TUNE! Let's make sure we have a backup tune if need be. I recommend emailing it to yourself just in case your laptop's hard drive crashes so you'll be able to access the file. I email all-important tunes to my various emails for backup. The files are small and it's easy and free insurance. Always name your tunes something different so you can differentiate them. I also like to create text files containing any changes I've made to the tunes naming the text file the same as the tune. I.E. Stock1.0.hpt for the tune and Stock1.0.txt for the notepad txt file that you mark down what you've changed. HPT has a history, but nothing is more detailed than your own personal account of things.

Speedometer Check:
In this section, we make sure the speedo is in check. Most of the trans settings rely on MPH input in order to function so we need to make sure your current rear tire height is on par with reality. First, go to your tire manufactures website and notate the exact height of the tire you use. For me, this is a Nitto 555R 275/45/17 DR that is 25.63''. So we need to click the "Speedo" button on the toolbar and enter the correct tire size into the box, the correct rear-end gear ratio into the box (stock is 3.46), and click "Commit". This will help to dial in your speed correctly so that your MPH values reflect real-world numbers.




Shift Point Tuning:
In this section, we will deal with shift point tuning. This can be very hit-and-miss. Just because you set a certain value does not guarantee that the trans will shift at those EXACT values. It usually varies by a hundred or so RPM and an MPH or two. The goal here is trial and error (without going to jail trying to dial it in!). Set it, test it. If it's fine then great. If not, adjust accordingly to your taste.

First off the A4 needs to satisfy TWO variables before the shift is made. 1) RPM 2) MPH. Let's say you have a 1>2 (meaning 1st to 2nd gear shift) set at 6,400 RPM and 40MPH. When the engine gets to 6,400 RPM then trans will generally wait until it hits 40MPH before commanding the shift and vice versa. You'll want to give yourself a smidgen of room here since it takes time for solenoids to activate, springs to move, fluid to flow...etc.

If you want out at 6,500 at 40MPH try setting it at 6,350 and 37MPH, it might just bang out right where you need it. If not, readjust. A common mistake people make in this area is just addressing the WOT shift points.

It is important to increase/decrease the part throttle values by the same % as the WOT values.

Computers can be finicky and if everything isn't set up right you may just find yourself banging the limiter searching for that perfect shift and all the while the problem is in the part throttle tables.

Something to use that usually gives good luck in predicting where to set shift RPM so it correlates with MPH is the VCM scanner. First, do a few log runs with the car with the VCM Scanner. Full pulls into 3rd (don't go to jail! legal areas only! Mexico seems to be a nice place to get away with this stuff ㊙ ). Note where your trans is shifting out at: (This pic is from a modified tune with built trans and DRs, not stock)



There you see in first gear I'm recording 6,300~ish RPM at 42~ish MPH. If you have to, hold a gear up to your target RPM so it records the MPH at that speed. I.E. If you want to check MPH at 6,500 and you have a tune that shifts you out at 6,200 and you leave it in D, it will punch out before you get to your target. Adjust your engine side rev limiter accordingly and hold a gear out manually if you have to.

Now let's apply our new found info to the tune. Click on the "Trans" tab on the toolbar and under the "Auto Shift Speed" tab find "Full Throttle Shift Speed Normal" and click the "Normal" tab and you'll see something like this (stock file in this pic):



I like to set the MPH low, and let the RPM be the trigger spot for the shift and you'll see this in my tune. Meaning, I like to get the MPH variable satisfied so that the TCM just waits for the RPM to hit and then bang (remember, 2 variables are needed, RPM and MPH) A good 4-5 or so below actual MPH is a good buffer for MPH variables. Don't set it too far off though. If it's too far off it may miss the shift, i.e., if you have the MPH set at 70 and the shift should occur at 86 it's too much of a discrepancy for the TCM to decipher. Try to keep it close to +/- 4 or 5MPH max.

Remember it probably won't hit the dead nuts spot on either RPM or MPH due to the things I mentioned before (internal part actuation...etc). Now, let's change that variable to reflect what we need. We will need to do this in "Normal" and "Performance" or "Pattern B" (if using 2.23 Beta).



Here you see I've adjusted the MPH UP 1MPH in 1st (didn't need much) and 9MPH in the second and so on. You can either highlight the box you want to change and enter the number in the box in the upper corner of the window and hit the = button or just type the number into the variable box once selected.

Also, we need to adjust the downshift MPH by the same percentage that we adjusted the upshift MPH. Although, the upshift MPH has to remain higher than the downshift MPH. You'll see how I modified those variables as well. Notice I added about 2-3MPH to each upshift point except for the 3>2 downshift. This is where further custom tweaking comes in.

For me, I don't want my trans downshifting into 2nd gear at 79 MPH if I go WOT or manually pull down because I feel it is too close to the shift-out point and doesn't want the engine screaming for a second before it shifts. It generally feels like it's holding back and slower when the downshift is really close to where the upshift is. I'd rather just stay in the gear I'm in (this case 3rd) and continue to climb. Adjust to your tastes.

Now we need to go into "Part Throttle Shift Normal" to adjust a few things:



Now we need to copy over the 100 (WOT) values from the Full Throttle Shift Speed area to the Part Throttle Shift Normal. In my readings, this isn't 100% mandatory, but many good tuners like to make them match up so the TCM doesn't have any variance issues and I like to follow suit with that idea so here goes:



Now that we have that squared away it's time to tackle RPM. This one is pretty straightforward forward and if you've set up your MPH correctly and have given it a 4-5MPH buffer before actual you should be able to get your RPMs to hit pretty close. If not, like anything else, adjust accordingly. Let's start off by opening the "Full Throttle Shift RPM Normal", "Normal" tab, and the "Performance" or "Pattern B" (if using 2.23 Beta) tab as well:



Now adjust the values to your liking:



Now I usually punch out first at around 6,300 and 2nd and 3rd at around 6,450-6,500. This is where that variance stuff comes in. Since I know I'll have a small bit of time before the actual shift, since I want the 2nd and 3rd out at 6,500 I've set them to punch in the tune at 6,300. This mixed with my MPH settings has worked for me. You will need to test and tune them to your flavor. That pretty much wraps it up as far as shift point tuning. If I've left anything out of this section feel free to comment and I will add it in.

Shift Pressures:
As far as shift pressures go I leave them at stock levels and so do many of the major builders/tuners out there. The stock levels in the GTO are max @ 90psi and are plenty fine for quick shifts.

The correct way to increase shift pressures is mechanical with a shift kit. The kit will include pieces that are built to handle the increased pressure such as different springs and metal parts that replace plastic parts I.E. the boost valve. Beyond this people who boost up the pressure through the tune are risking mechanical failure for no great reason. If torque management is gone 90psi is plenty of pressure even in a stock trans to make a quick shift.

Remember it's not about how HARD the trans shifts, it's about how QUICK it does it.

That old-school nonsense about a trans that slams the tires in every gear and hits hard on shifts is just that. Nonsense. My trans is very smooth and while it definitely hits and lets you know it's there, its emphasis is on speed rather than force.
 

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#2 · (Edited by Moderator)
Torque Converter Tuning

Torque Converter Clutch Duty Cycle (TCC) Maximum & Minimum Pressure
:
This section deals with the TCC PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) Apply/Release pressure. Modifying these values is recommended for high stall or aftermarket torque converter users. Most good aftermarket torque converters contain high carbon lockup clutches that are strong and allow you to lock them solidly, thus saving wear on the clutch and increasing longevity/durability.

This is going to be one of those "driveability" settings.

This is how much pressure is given to apply or release the lockup clutch. Therefore, more pressure equals a harsh feel and solid lockup, less equals a softer engagement and a smooth feel. The drawbacks to this "smooth feel" however are that the lockup clutch is literally slipping into place as opposed to solidly applying itself.
  • The more slip, the less durability, and the more wear on the clutch.
  • The more positive and quick you can get that clutch to lock in there the less wear however with my upcoming recommended settings you WILL feel that bitch lock in.
It feels like a 4th shift. So the question is are you willing to sacrifice a smooth lockup feel for the increased durability of your lockup clutch? To access this section's variables you need to click the "Auto TCC" tab in the Transmission section. Find the "TCC Duty Cycle" area and open the "Maximum" and "Minimum" windows. The stock settings on a GTO are:



Time to put these bitches to full capacity. Enter "100" in all of the "Maximum" boxes and "90" in all of the "Minimum boxes. Like so:



Note: If you have a shift kit these pressures are generally set to max mechanically. I like to set them to full even though I have a shift kit.

Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) Apply/Release Speed aka Lockup Speed
In this section, we'll go over the TCC Apply/Release Speeds. As in, at what MPH the converter will lock and unlock? This is another trial and error section like the shift point tuning.

First off unless you have a multi-disk converter or one designed specifically for WOT lockup it is highly recommended that you tune out WOT lockup. It is simply too hard on the single disk and common "Stage 1 & 2" converters. Force locking it on the dyno to get good numbers is one thing, but locking through 3rd or 4th flat out with a converter that is not designed for it on the street/strip is asking for a blown converter that will then spit busted clutch material into your trans which will waste it as well.

So let's go ahead and disable WOT lock by finding the "Full Throttle Normal" area of the Apply/Release Speed section in the Auto TCC tab and clicking the "Normal" and "Performance" or "Pattern B" (if using 2.23 Beta):



Now let's go ahead and max those bitches out by placing the max value in all of the Apply boxes, and 1 less MPH in all of the release boxes in both windows (should be 318 in all years, if not, find the max variable at the bottom right corner of the window and enter it in the boxes).



Now it's on to the part throttle stuff. In these tables, we can adjust what MPH and throttle % the lockup occurs and also what it unlocks at. Look for "Apply/Release Speed Normal" under the "Auto TCC" tab and open the window by clicking on the "Normal" button (stock settings are shown below, no need to open Performance or Pattern B on this one as those tables are maxed from the factory and don't apply to this):



Notice how the Apply speeds are always higher than the Release speeds even when maxing it out (318 apply, 317 release). This needs to be the case even after we modify them. Also notice how 2nd gear is maxed out. No need to lock in a second. In fact, there is really no need to lock in a third either, and most modders don't include me. I don't want the car stuck in 1:1 locked up at low speed when I can be in overdrive unlocked with more low-speed pull power at light throttle % (since traffic ebbs and flows at low speeds). Most people have 4th gear lockup come in around 40-45MPH. This can depend on what type of cam you have in the car as well. Certain big cams like to buck at low-speed lockup (which is another reason modded cars don't lock 3rd) and if you feel the car buck or surge or bog out try raising the lock MPH. Here is the table that I use with my 4,200 stall:



Pretty straight forward no? You can see where I maxed out the 3rd gear lock by entering max values in the 3rd Apply and 1 less numeral in the 3rd Release (remember that whole "apply has to be more than the release thing?).

Also, take note of where I dropped in the max value on 4th apply. Let's focus on that window for a minute and I'll try to describe what's going on:



The RED circle is showing us that the lockup clutch will apply at 43MPH at any throttle up to 25%. It will not apply under 43MPH at any throttle % with those settings. Also if I was to speed up to 51MPH and let off on the pedal down below 32% throttle it would also lock. Now as far as kicking it out of the lock or "releasing" it, the BLUE circle shows us that anything below 43MPH will unlock the converter no matter the throttle %.

The YELLOW circle shows us how I set up my lockup cruise so that it doesn't kick in and out of the lock at light to semi-light throttle. This is nice when you cruising at let's say 65, and want to get around someone that's driving slow but don't need to floor it and don't want to kick it out of the lock. The YELLOW circle shows us that I can give it as much as 50% throttle under 65MPH without it kicking out of the lock. If I hit 56% throttle @ 65 however, it would kick it out of the lock. This is where the trial and error stuff comes into play and fine-tuning these settings for your taste could take some time.

At the low-speed lockup areas, you want to keep the application and release close. Notice how my application is 43 for the first couple of boxes and the corresponding release boxes are all within 1MPH. Past my initial "city cruise" lockup and throttle points (Usually 45MPH and 25% throttle is par for the course so that's why the settings) I have opened up the gap between the apply and release a bit. Scale it according to where you want your lock to kick in/out.

Once it gets faster the gap opens wider as I want the lock to stay applied below 50% throttle all the way up to 80 or so but I don't want it to release if say, I cruise up to 75 and have to let off the pedal for a bit. When I get back on it should stay locked as long as I don't go over 50%.

I hope I'm making sense here :D Anyway, that's the gist of part throttle apply/release converter tuning.
 

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#3 · (Edited by Moderator)
Torque Management (TM):
In this final section, we will deal with Torque Management, or TM, as it's called, settings that are on both the engine side of the tune and the trans side of the tune for A4s. M6 cars do not have trans-side TM in the tune. For those that don't know TM is something, GM added to the tune to dial back the engine timing during shifts and also add a shift time delay. This helps protect the trans from breakage but also makes for slow shifts and with timing being pulled and RWHP reduced because of it TM can put a serious hindrance on performance. Most modern vehicles have TM.

For reference, the stock torque rating for the 4L60E is 360 ft/lbs and 380 ft/lbs for the 65E. I personally don't recommend more than a 50% reduction of TM on a stock trans. Some people go further. 75% is fairly common and some even pull it out altogether 100%. As far as a built trans, let it all hang out. That's what they are for.

On my trans I have it pulled out 100% since it is built to take the abuse. As far as how much YOU should pull out, well that's up to your personal preference. Do some research and be careful with your decisions. That being said let's get to it.

In the "Transmission" section, find your way over to the "Torque Management" tab. Find the "Torque Reduction" area and there you'll find the "Torque Reduction vs Torque vs Shift" button or something along those lines. Unfortunately, I don't remember what it says because 2.23 Beta has it listed as "Pattern X". This will be one of the main TM variables. There are a few others but this one makes the largest impact. Maybe someone can post up with what it is called in 2.22 and I'll amend this write-up. The pic below is from my stock tune:



Now the reason people say "-x%" is because these numbers are kind of arbitrary and don't really work out to be 1-100 in scale. So basically, looking at the 230 ft/lb area on the sixth box for the 1>2 shift you'll see an 8. Obviously, a -50% reduction for that box would be 4. If you are going to do -50% then do it across the board. So, -50% on the first set of numbers 8, 11, 20 would be 4, 5.5, 10...etc. Now as far as the 5.5 things HPT won't let you enter that so I usually would round up to 4, 6, 10...etc. If you want to go -100% drop 0s in every box.

Next, let's check out "Abuse Mode". This is something the tune will reference if it feels like it's getting the Ike Turner treatment. Here we have "Torque Reduction" and "Reduction Duration" buttons. Pop em open and let's see what's inside:



Let's go ahead and leave the Duration vs Trans Temp completely alone for all % reductions except 100%. If you're taking out all TM then 0 out this entire table.

Next, we see the Trans Abuse Mode Torque Reduction vs RPM at the top right of the pic. Just like the Torque Reduction vs Shift from before if you are going to pull out a % of TM the 90, 100, 100...etc would be 45, 50, 50...etc down the line for -50%. Once again if you are taking out all TM then 0 out the entire table.

Next, we'll go over to the "TCC Limit" area and you'll see the Tq Reduction drop-down disabled. Under that, you'll see an area where you can enter in the max torque numbers. This is the maximum TCC limit torque. If you have an aftermarket quality converter max this out by entering the max possible value in the box, with my car it says that it's 6042. It can be found in the lower right corner of the window:



There we have it! That's my write-up. I trust that everything I have put in here is spot-on accurate but as always I am open to any and all criticism. This entire thing came off the top of my head and if I missed something I'd like to hear it so I can add it in.

Thanks to the members of LS2GTO.com, HPT forums, and LS1Tech. It's where I gathered all of my info over the last couple of years and if I can give back then I'm more than happy to because without all of us working together and sharing knowledge this hobby is flat hard to figure out sometimes.

Good luck with your trans tunes and take things slow until you fully learn the ropes and what you are doing. There is a little more elbow room doing trans tunes for the first time since it's a bit harder to blow things up as you can easily with motor tunes. Have at it!

Cheers :cool:
 

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#6 ·
Great job, I haven't got a chance to read it all yet but what I have read sounds great!
 
#7 ·
efi live is a little different .... do i want the converter to lock on upshifts ?? it ask about that......everything else i should be able to work threw if not ill gice coolaid a shout . thanks again
 
#9 ·
This is awesome... Thank you very, much!!! I will have to print this out and start checking my changes I had already made, to see if I screwed anything up. :)
 
#17 · (Edited)
Thanks!

I don't own a Goat but I had to create an ID on this board just to say thanks! Man this is really an awesome writeup. I've been tuning with HPT for years but have never tuned an auto until my buddy recently bought an '01 C5. I really had no idea what to do and there is surprisingly little on the HPT forum regarding auto tranny tuning. You'll likely see a lot of traction about this due to links being posted to it over there.

Thanks again!
 
#19 · (Edited)
Thanks, great info, HPT can't do better.

I just put a stall in last week and was lowering my shift points. On my 5th pass it wouldn't shift at all. I thought I had broken my new trans. This is why.

"I like to get the MPH variable satisfied so that the TCM just waits for the RPM to hit and then bang (remember, 2 variables needed, RPM and MPH) A good 4-5 or so below actual MPH is a good buffer for MPH variables. Don't set it too far off though. If its too far off it may miss the shift. I.E. if you have the MPH set at 70 and the shift should occur at 86 its too much of a discrepancy for the TCM to decipher. Try to keep it close +/- 4 or 5MPH max."

I have asked on this board and contacted HPT saying this "Is there a bug, secret, or what, with htp and shift points on the 2005 GTO, E40. .....I didn't expect something so simple as lowering a shift point could cause it to not shift at all. Putting the old points back in fixed it." There response was this "No idea, send me the file that shifts fine and the file that doesn't and I'll have our head engineer review it to see if he sees anything that stands out."

You are the man CoolAid. I wish I would have known about this thread before I took the car to the trans guy. Damn. What a waste of time.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I have a question about TM. Does this trans chart only affect the trans or is it also used in the engine tune?

It's just a percentage, what does it actually do in the trans?

I want the trans to shift quick and firm but would like a little timing pulled in the engine. I've already burned up a 3-4 pack shifting in 10# boost, I'd like TM to pull power on the shift but not screw with the shift itself. Ideas?

Also, the chart uses ft/lb as a reference. How does it measure ft/lb. What sensor? Is it accurate? Can it be displayed in the scanner? That would be cool.
 
#27 ·
-Engine TM example is T/C off, in first gear, gas to the floor on stock tires and it kind of "chirp chirp"s off instead of blowing the small 245 hard ass tires off like it should. ECM is holding the engine back to prevent an overload of torque to the drive train.

-A4 Trans TM example is delayed shifting times and reduction of engine torque at shift, to lessen the shock of power on the trans. 4L60E is 360/ft lbs of torque rated, 4L65E is rated at 380/ft lbs (torque rated at the input shaft).
 
#30 ·
awesome post! I'll have my tuner take a look at this when it comes time to retune The kinks out of my ECM when I come back from fort leonard wood. I get the feeling some of the tranny tune may be off and this may address some of the issues that may exist if any do.
 
#31 ·
Question about torque converter lockup.... My converter does not lockup when it's cold and I am just taking off, why is this? When it's hot outside, it takes about a 1/8th mile to lockup. When it's cold out, takes more depending on temp. Am I burning up my lockup clutch? I am going to ask tuner tomorrow about pulse width and all that, but right now I don't know what it is set at or what it should be set at. It's an FTI 2800.
 
#32 ·
I think tcc lock up is based on Mph/Tps only and not temperature, sounds like you might have other problems.
 
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