Quad eccentics vs Toe link setup. Drag Racers please - LS1GTO.com Forums

Vendors


Go Back   LS1GTO.com Forums > GTO Tech > Suspension/Brakes

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 10-21-2012, 11:29 AM   #1
gto_ua
Registered User
 
gto_ua's Avatar
 
2006 GTO Owner

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 278


Offline
Question Quad eccentics vs Toe link setup. Drag Racers please

Hey guys.

Have been searching for a while but couldnt find any exact info.

What is a better setup for drag racing?

Run adjustable poly quad eccentric setup on the rear (like Whiteline, for example) and toe link delete vs. oem replacement poly bushings and upgraded toe links.

I want to set rear camber at 0*. Suspension is KW V3.

Some say to have upgraded toe links and others to delete them and run quad eccentrics for even better dynamic performance.

Its mainly for straight acceleration.

Serious drag racers are welcome!
__________________
www.top-level.ua

440ci N/A LS7 GTO

Last edited by gto_ua; 10-22-2012 at 05:56 AM.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-21-2012, 08:22 PM   #2
HunterKiller89
Ecotec tech
 
HunterKiller89's Avatar
 
2004 GTO Owner

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: San Fernando Valley (Los Angeles area)
Posts: 2,126


Offline
Send a message via AIM to HunterKiller89
opinions for road course are welcome too
__________________
Cars are nothing more than complicated chemistry problems that burn gasoline and turn it into a complicated physics problem.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-21-2012, 08:46 PM   #3
Konnie the Goat
Will Moderhate for Money.
 
Konnie the Goat's Avatar
 
2006 GTO Owner

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Galesburg, IL
Posts: 11,123
Premium Member


Offline
No easy answer here. There are strong supporters of both, with equally compelling data sets.

I myself have been playing with options, simulating dynamic conditions on the alignment rack. There are limits to what I can measure. The car in squat on the rack wont show the same angles as it would in squat on the track due to lack of real load. For now, this is a form of entertainment, but the toe bars do seem to help maintain toe better, longer, at least with my set up. My bars are unique and have more adjustment than others on the market.

The fast aussies swear by the quads only though. And they have more experience with this chassis than anyone. Miker is our domestic fanboy for quad-only. And again, solid data sets.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 12:39 AM   #4
dreadpirateroberts
ಠ_ಠ
 
dreadpirateroberts's Avatar
 
2005 GTO Owner

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NWI
Posts: 21,276


Offline
I've been thinking of switching actually. I am starting to think my current setup would benefit a lot more from the better contact patch a 0* camber setup would provide.

My stocker toe links were never stressed to the point were they were flexing, so I don't think they were even a limiting factor in my launches. I noticed no improvement in launches going to the GForce toe links.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 04:28 AM   #5
kebler2005
Registered Asshole
 
kebler2005's Avatar
 
2005 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: American Idol, AL
Posts: 4,349


Offline
I've had problems with stiff toe links and camber eccentrics. Its lessons learned. Im questioning whether I should go to quad or play with the alignment a little more. The sad thing is someone broke my camber adj bolt, resulting in me having to drop the rear craddle. They blamed the stiff toe links. I think I have other problems, who knows. I wont know till I drop it.
__________________
Pedders, Harrop, Forgestar's, Westcoast Speed, Mav Man, Hoen, Hinson, Russel, DBA, Mishimoto, Hawk, DMH, bohnman, illegal tint, disturbing to a quiet society, parts from Ausi land, more crap no one cares about
1/516 05' QSM M6 381whp 387wtq RiDe oR DiE

2010 Nissan Xterra OR 4x4 M6 ZARV Edition 3" lift & Mickey Thompson Baja Claw MTZ's
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 04:45 AM   #6
mistermike
Banned
 
mistermike's Avatar
 
2004 GTO Owner

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 20,801
GKPW52

Offline
The thing that gives me pause about eccentrics is the often heard complaints about them not holding their adjustments. These were mostly related to the Pedders and Noltec parts. I haven't heard enough about the Whitelines to have any thoughts on the matter.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 05:00 AM   #7
kebler2005
Registered Asshole
 
kebler2005's Avatar
 
2005 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: American Idol, AL
Posts: 4,349


Offline
whiteline>Pedders
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 05:52 AM   #8
gto_ua
Registered User
 
gto_ua's Avatar
 
2006 GTO Owner

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 278


Offline
Im leaning towards a quad Whiteline kit with toe link delete.

Having 0* rear camber with stiff rear springs (KW V3) is more favourable than -X.X* rear camber and little bit better toe control on launch(still no one has prooved that toe link does a better job managing the toe under load).
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 06:13 AM   #9
kebler2005
Registered Asshole
 
kebler2005's Avatar
 
2005 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: American Idol, AL
Posts: 4,349


Offline
From those of us that have removed stock toe links and found them to be bent, already know g-force or Non-Sponsor toe links, is a must upgrade. I would imagine, if a stiff rear end is your goal, then go harrop dif cover, with stronger toe links to be safe, along with your springs. My wheel hop is almost elimated with the setup I have.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 07:50 AM   #10
magnum-gto
8 second club
 
2006 GTO Owner

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Statham,Ga
Posts: 2,280


Offline
While on the subject of rear suspension.......can any one explain why GM installed
the inner and outer LCA bushings on different centers.
The bushing centerlines are parallel but offset roughly 3/4".
This is only a minor problem at normal control arm position but causes
increased bind at each end of travel.

Anyone have thoughts?
__________________
A big thanks to Ron, Mike and Jey @ Vengeance Racing
Thomas @ Non-Sponsor Engineering 980-521-0722
Greg @ FTI 386-736-5816
Frank@Driveshaft Shop 704-633-2380
gto.jpg
Brian/Jason@ Kauffman Tire
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 08:40 AM   #11
NicD
Must go faster...
 
NicD's Avatar
 
2004 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: phx, az
Posts: 1,514


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermike...View Post
The thing that gives me pause about eccentrics is the often heard complaints about them not holding their adjustments. These were mostly related to the Pedders and Noltec parts. I haven't heard enough about the Whitelines to have any thoughts on the matter.

This.

I've been eyeballing the SPF-0877K that BMR is now carrying and trying to decide what to do. I'd like to correct my camber and target 0* myself to try to help it hook better. I'm assuming these are the quad essentrics people are talking about and that with these you HAVE to delete your toe-rods? They appear to be the fave over on the aussie sites unless I'm looking at something else.

I would guess SPF-BK038 is the kit to adjust camber only and keep the toe-rods? Maybe that would be the easier route to go as I just can't see the bushings having the strength that the toe-rods would support based on the angles and mounting positions?
__________________
http://GoNicD.com

2000 Turbo Camaro | 2004 TT GTO | 09.5 TVS G8 GXP | 09 G8 GT | 1994 GT - The LS-stang

Last edited by NicD; 10-22-2012 at 08:45 AM.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 08:56 AM   #12
miker
'12-'13 ScrScca SM Champ
 
miker's Avatar
 
Monaro CV8

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 6,416


Offline
Send a message via AIM to miker Send a message via MSN to miker Send a message via Yahoo to miker
The Aussie dragracers like the Quad Eccentrics because you are changing the relative pivot location of the control arm. With enough time on an alignment rack with the rear springs removed you can get your car to have almost no dynamic camber; thus when you squat on launch you don't loose any contact patch.

The simple answer is that GM went to a softer rubber bushing when they put on toe-links; if you install ANY poly bushings on the rear control arms while keeping the toe-link installed you risk damage.

Eccentrics have a bad rap due to the shitty Pedders design. I had to replace my rear crossmember due to those Pedders bushings. The Whitelines have nice knurling and a single bolt design and they will never come loose.
__________________
2006 Monaro A4
386HP/376TQ Heintz Racing Tune
- .218/.222 .601 Cam, Lunati HighRPM Lifters, Ported/Milled 243s, UDP, Oil Baffle, Comp Trunnions, K&N CAI, ARP Bolts, Catless JBA Shorties
- , APEX EC7 / 265 RE-11s, V2 Brembos, Coilovers, Bushings, Fastrack, Swaybars, ARP Studs, 15lbs Braille
- Manual 4l65e, Anti-Hop Axles, 3.5" Alum DS, TrueTrac, 3.73s, Harrop Cover, Sparco Evo2s
- Ron Davis Radiator, Derale PS/Trans Coolers, JBiz CatchCan, Russell Lines, AeroForce, Bel RX65
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 09:50 AM   #13
Napalm
Banned
 
Other Holden/HSV

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Land Mass formerly known as MS
Posts: 6,677


Offline
Send a message via Yahoo to Napalm
Quote:
Originally Posted by miker...View Post
The Aussie dragracers like the Quad Eccentrics because you are changing the relative pivot location of the control arm. With enough time on an alignment rack with the rear springs removed you can get your car to have almost no dynamic camber; thus when you squat on launch you don't loose any contact patch.

The simple answer is that GM went to a softer rubber bushing when they put on toe-links; if you install ANY poly bushings on the rear control arms while keeping the toe-link installed you risk damage.

Eccentrics have a bad rap due to the shitty Pedders design. I had to replace my rear crossmember due to those Pedders bushings. The Whitelines have nice knurling and a single bolt design and they will never come loose.

he hits the reasons why I like the quad eccentrics on the GTO chassis.

Also you have a bit more "tuning" you can do, not sure that is a good thing for all people.

My only real issue, is I feel they need to be checked often as part of a standard MX program.

But I have to say I'm intrigued by kTG's bars and would like to see that setup in person. Meanwhile I've moved to by G8 and its completely different in dynamics. some good, some not so much.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 10:31 AM   #14
NicD
Must go faster...
 
NicD's Avatar
 
2004 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: phx, az
Posts: 1,514


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by miker...View Post
The Aussie dragracers like the Quad Eccentrics because you are changing the relative pivot location of the control arm. With enough time on an alignment rack with the rear springs removed you can get your car to have almost no dynamic camber; thus when you squat on launch you don't loose any contact patch.

The simple answer is that GM went to a softer rubber bushing when they put on toe-links; if you install ANY poly bushings on the rear control arms while keeping the toe-link installed you risk damage.

Eccentrics have a bad rap due to the shitty Pedders design. I had to replace my rear crossmember due to those Pedders bushings. The Whitelines have nice knurling and a single bolt design and they will never come loose.

That all makes perfect sense. Are the superpros that BMR is now carrying similar to the whitelines or are they the same?
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 11:03 AM   #15
gto_ua
Registered User
 
gto_ua's Avatar
 
2006 GTO Owner

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 278


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicD...View Post
That all makes perfect sense. Are the superpros that BMR is now carrying similar to the whitelines or are they the same?

Looks like same



BMR



Whiteline W62946

Last edited by gto_ua; 10-22-2012 at 11:20 AM.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 11:26 AM   #16
miker
'12-'13 ScrScca SM Champ
 
miker's Avatar
 
Monaro CV8

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 6,416


Offline
Send a message via AIM to miker Send a message via MSN to miker Send a message via Yahoo to miker
Whitelines are the only eccentric on the market with a SINGLE BOLT design.

Superpro, Pedders, Roadsafe, etc all use a shitty 2 bolt design that WILL come loose eventually.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 12:28 PM   #17
gto_ua
Registered User
 
gto_ua's Avatar
 
2006 GTO Owner

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 278


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by miker...View Post
Whitelines are the only eccentric on the market with a SINGLE BOLT design.

Superpro, Pedders, Roadsafe, etc all use a shitty 2 bolt design that WILL come loose eventually.

Do you mean Whiteline W62946?
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 12:43 PM   #18
miker
'12-'13 ScrScca SM Champ
 
miker's Avatar
 
Monaro CV8

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 6,416


Offline
Send a message via AIM to miker Send a message via MSN to miker Send a message via Yahoo to miker
Quote:
Originally Posted by gto_ua...View Post
Do you mean Whiteline W62946?

X63109

http://www.kollarracingproducts.com/...TO-Rear/Detail
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 12:59 PM   #19
americanbdass
NCG
 
americanbdass's Avatar
 
2004 GTO Owner

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: vacaville, CA
Posts: 2,387
Premium Member


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by gto_ua...View Post
Hey guys.

Have been searching for a while but couldnt find any exact info.

What is a better setup for drag racing?

Run adjustable poly quad eccentric setup on the rear (like Whiteline, for example) and toe link delete vs. oem replacement poly bushings and upgraded toe links.

I want to set rear camber at 0*. Suspension is KW V3.

Some say to have upgraded toe links and others to delete them and run quad eccentrics for even better dynamic performance.

Its mainly for straight acceleration.

Serious drag racers are welcome!

I've been running 0* camber and 0-.05 toe for about 15+k miles now. When you take out all the camber, traction does improve a lot.

With our IRS at this alignment I would definitely say its a DRAG racing setup. The car definetly doesn't dig into the corners like it use to.

With a high spring rate out back, I wouldn't worry about dynamic camber gains.
My spring rate/traction strategy is different with this setup.

If you go quad eccentrics loss the toe link.
__________________
04/PBM/M6



Last edited by americanbdass; 10-22-2012 at 01:02 PM.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 01:10 PM   #20
NicD
Must go faster...
 
NicD's Avatar
 
2004 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: phx, az
Posts: 1,514


Offline
So if I'm reading this right in other threads on the aussie boards it looks like it's perfectly fine to remove the toe links if you do quad eccenstrics?

Not only that but it looks like another benefit of removing the toe links and doing quads over just doing the 2 point stuff with the toe links is that when it squats it doesn't increase the toe? I mean if it didn't have that benefit I wouldn't see any reason to do the quads over the 2 points.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 01:17 PM   #21
gto_ua
Registered User
 
gto_ua's Avatar
 
2006 GTO Owner

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 278


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by miker...View Post
X63109

http://www.kollarracingproducts.com/...TO-Rear/Detail

Well, actually same eccentrics.

W62946 is already a quad kit SINGLE bolt design for lowered vehicles. Offers -+3* camber correction.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 03:00 PM   #22
miker
'12-'13 ScrScca SM Champ
 
miker's Avatar
 
Monaro CV8

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 6,416


Offline
Send a message via AIM to miker Send a message via MSN to miker Send a message via Yahoo to miker
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicD...View Post
So if I'm reading this right in other threads on the aussie boards it looks like it's perfectly fine to remove the toe links if you do quad eccenstrics?

All of the our cars sold to the Aussies had no toe-links from the factory but stiffer control arm bushings.

For the US market they switched to softer bushings and toe-links for the Cadillac Catera and for what ever reason the GTO got this same suspension setup.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 05:30 PM   #23
NicD
Must go faster...
 
NicD's Avatar
 
2004 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: phx, az
Posts: 1,514


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by miker...View Post
All of the our cars sold to the Aussies had no toe-links from the factory but stiffer control arm bushings.

For the US market they switched to softer bushings and toe-links for the Cadillac Catera and for what ever reason the GTO got this same suspension setup.

No shit? Makes me wonder what the hell their reasoning was...

Also, what the hell is this I read on the Aussie boards about installing the quad centrics wrong and ruining differentials? Measuring driveshaft/axle float, what does that mean?
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 05:32 PM   #24
Rob@WretchedMS
Evil Pedders Guy Since 2006
LS1GTO.com Sponsor
 
Rob@WretchedMS's Avatar
 
2005 GTO Owner

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Enfield, CT
Posts: 7,573


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicD...View Post
No shit? Makes me wonder what the hell their reasoning was...

Also, what the hell is this I read on the Aussie boards about installing the quad centrics wrong and ruining differentials? Measuring driveshaft/axle float, what does that mean?

this is the reason that we do not recommend using the adjustable inner pivot.
it's too easy to cause a lot of damage.
__________________

  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 05:34 PM   #25
miker
'12-'13 ScrScca SM Champ
 
miker's Avatar
 
Monaro CV8

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 6,416


Offline
Send a message via AIM to miker Send a message via MSN to miker Send a message via Yahoo to miker
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicD...View Post
Also, what the hell is this I read on the Aussie boards about installing the quad centrics wrong and ruining differentials? Measuring driveshaft/axle float, what does that mean?

It is possible with the V6 Monaro/ 5.7 GTO halfshafts to adjust the control arm in a way that over extends the halfshalf. Just make sure you can grab the halfshaft and push/pull it to make sure it isn't locked up.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 06:09 PM   #26
Rob@WretchedMS
Evil Pedders Guy Since 2006
LS1GTO.com Sponsor
 
Rob@WretchedMS's Avatar
 
2005 GTO Owner

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Enfield, CT
Posts: 7,573


Offline
it's also possible for the halfshafts to bottom out, causing damage to the axles and diff.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 06:56 PM   #27
NicD
Must go faster...
 
NicD's Avatar
 
2004 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: phx, az
Posts: 1,514


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by miker...View Post
It is possible with the V6 Monaro/ 5.7 GTO halfshafts to adjust the control arm in a way that over extends the halfshalf. Just make sure you can grab the halfshaft and push/pull it to make sure it isn't locked up.

Ahh, so that seems pretty easy to avoid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@WretchedMS...View Post
this is the reason that we do not recommend using the adjustable inner pivot.
it's too easy to cause a lot of damage.

But it seems pretty damn easy to avoid by just putting your hand on it and making sure it's not locked up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@WretchedMS...View Post
it's also possible for the halfshafts to bottom out, causing damage to the axles and diff.

Again, same thing...


So somebody tell me, is there really an advantage to running the quad adj setup with no toe-links vs the camber adjustable only with toe-link? What if I wanted to run the camber adjustable setup with toe link but run non-adjustable polys in the toe location? I guess I'm trying to figure out if it would bind with the toe-rods and camber adj only with poly toe non-adj bushings.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 07:12 PM   #28
Rob@WretchedMS
Evil Pedders Guy Since 2006
LS1GTO.com Sponsor
 
Rob@WretchedMS's Avatar
 
2005 GTO Owner

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Enfield, CT
Posts: 7,573


Offline
static isn't the issue, when the suspension compresses the axle needs to straighten out and thus become shorter.

not sure i follow what you are talking about with
Quote:
What if I wanted to run the camber adjustable setup with toe link but run non-adjustable polys in the toe location

  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-22-2012, 07:44 PM   #29
NicD
Must go faster...
 
NicD's Avatar
 
2004 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: phx, az
Posts: 1,514


Offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@WretchedMS...View Post
static isn't the issue, when the suspension compresses the axle needs to straighten out and thus become shorter.

Again, very easy to check by compressing the suspension and giving the tug test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@WretchedMS...View Post
not sure i follow what you are talking about with

I asked about running the adjustable poly bushings in the "camber" location and running just regular non-adjustable poly bushings in the "toe" location while running toe-rods. Does that cause it to bind up? Somebody had mentioned when running poly bushings for all four that you shouldn't use toe-rods because it will bind.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-23-2012, 04:21 AM   #30
kebler2005
Registered Asshole
 
kebler2005's Avatar
 
2005 GTO Owner

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: American Idol, AL
Posts: 4,349


Offline
I have ran Pedders eccentric kit for 6 years, and had little issues as far as aligning. For some reason, when I swapped over to a stronger toe link, my eccentrics would not adjust. Come to find out it takes a little more TLC to adjust, not just going from one to the other. My alignment guy broke my camber adj. bolt on the driver’s side because it wouldn’t turn. Afterwards, he adjusted the toe and it popped into place resulting on -1.3 camber on both sides. That told me my problem right there. I believe I still have other issues, but since this is an extensive project I’m trying to exhaust options. I do agree the hardware configuration is wrong with Pedders eccentrics, but they do back it up with an experienced, professional tech support.
  Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the LS1GTO.com Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:02 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2003-2008, LS1GTO.com
Site Banner Design 2005-2007, Cylosoft

LS1GTO.com is not affiliated with General Motors Corp.