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Old 12-11-2012, 03:51 PM   #1
JNR
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IAT relocate - can be harmful?

This isn't about how to relocate or the purpose of relocating the IAT, but more so will I be risking harm by putting my IAT in such a 'cool' place?

I ended up putting it where the bottom of the airbox was in front of the fender, so that the sensor faces on the outside, or more an ambient temp. condition.

While this did make a real nice SOTP difference today, I am a little concerned if this may not be a good thing under some instances, as that area is obviously far cooler than the actual air going into the engine, so would I risk going lean then? imagine there are safeguards with the knock sensor and so on, but still, I want to be sure I'm not asking for problems doing this.

btw - this is a stock engine, stock tune, stock exhaust, etc. and only have added a K&N cone (will be making a heat barrier later on and that should lessen my worries if they are indeed truth, a little I hope). I do plan on doing some things later on, just not sure the route yet and how far...for now I want to keep the engine running as strong as it can at all times, but not at the expense of engine damage (too low mile and no $$ for upgrade just yet, lol).
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Old 12-11-2012, 03:56 PM   #2
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Best location is in the actual air flow entering the engine. Not some random place just to get colder temps. Just getting it out if the maf and into the air flow will be very efficient since the maf holds in engine heat.

I placed mine on the back of my vararam filter to get its temps from the air that is about to enter the throttle body for the most accurate reading.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:01 PM   #3
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Yeah, I am a little concerned trying to 'fool' the computer too much...

one nice thing about the '04s is we have a separate IAT sensor already and there is enough wire slack to put it in different places..

I did it in my air filter cone first, cutting out the inside metal pieces so as to not act as radiant excessive heat source, but it didn't help a whole lot...where they put it from the factory is a crappy location because it's right by the radiator sort of (on the intake tract) and with the coolant hoses right there, too...I changed my hoses to SS tubing there so that heat source is lessened, but don't want to put it back where the oem is.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:07 PM   #4
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YeAh the caspers kit for US makes it like yours. Best way imo would be getting colder air to the engine viaa otr intake then reading the air from that stream.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:14 PM   #5
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the iat relocate is to prevent heat soak to prevent timing being pulled and also richens the fuel. Get HP tuners and log to see if you're getting heat soak. Tricking the computer will make more power ( a little) but risk leaning out and too much timing. Putting it in the air stream near the filter is ideal. If you want to mess with fuel and timing get HP or EFI.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:15 PM   #6
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I was wondering about this relocation deal as well. I would think that you would want to do as mikew had stated, but to be at the safest position you would not want to fool the computer to think your temps are cooler than they are entering the engine.

The calibration on the car currently from the factory is calculated for the IAT sensor to be where its located so that way fueling and timing tables can match up correctly to IAT. If you haven't tuned the car or do not plan to then relocating it leaves it open to adverse effects in an extreme condition.

If you located the sensor in the intake ducting where it would be warmer it would give you that much more safety net in tuning due to the computer reading a hotter temp then compensating by pulling timing and fuel. Cooler would do the opposite and if you have false readings and your IAT is actually hotter going into the engine you will run the chance of damage.

Just my thoughts on it.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:18 PM   #7
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As already stated, the purpose of the IAT is getting the temp of the air temp entering the engine. Not the ambient temp. Moving to prevent heat soak for a more true reading.
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Old 12-11-2012, 04:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aikidoshadow...View Post

The calibration on the car currently from the factory is calculated for the IAT sensor to be where its located so that way fueling and timing tables can match up correctly to IAT. If you haven't tuned the car or do not plan to then relocating it leaves it open to adverse effects in an extreme condition.

If you located the sensor in the intake ducting where it would be warmer it would give you that much more safety net in tuning due to the computer reading a hotter temp then compensating by pulling timing and fuel. Cooler would do the opposite and if you have false readings and your IAT is actually hotter going into the engine you will run the chance of damage.

Just my thoughts on it.

If the reading is accurrate where it is then tuning to match that is what tuning is for, The closer to the engine the warmer it ussually is, but air flow effects this. Once you put it where you wont get heat soak from hot parts( hard to do with the ls) then you tune in the timing and fuel to max power and safety.

PS: Heat soak will add Fuel , remove timing. Added fuel is cooling but robs power.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikew...View Post
Best location is in the actual air flow entering the engine.

This.

You don't wantt to "fool" the ECM at all.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:40 PM   #10
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so where would you put the iat if you had the svede. im looking to get the svede and where would i want to put it on there?
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:00 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by tyler318...View Post
so where would you put the iat if you had the svede. im looking to get the svede and where would i want to put it on there?

The svede comes with a spot for the IAT sensor in the front left corner.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:19 PM   #12
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After lots of SOTP testing and logging with my Predator, the best place to put the IAT with my K&N is in the intake tube, in the path of the engine's airflow. In the cone and next to the cone produced false engine intake air temp results (it was reading ambient), and the car just had awkward power (and even then the power was there only when the engine was cool already - hard to cool it after heat soak).

Get an Omega thermistor, and this is about as good as you can do without getting an OTRCAI (although some thermal insulation helps). Throttle response very much improved with just an Omega - again, best results were with the IAT+Omega in the K&N tube. If you want to "cool" the IAT reading at a standstill before launch, just rev the engine a little and watch the temps drop. No need to trick the computer by reading ambient temps (the engine doesn't breath ambient temp air anyway). An Omega thermistor reacts fast enough that even if the tube is heat soaked, the ambient air being pulled in will cool the thermistor fast enough that you'll have good power at launch with just a little rev before digging out. This is the actual temperature of air entering the engine (as opposed to air outside the engine). This is my personal experience.

Reading ambient temps and then running the engine off different temps is providing false information to the computer for your own peace of mind. Say that the IAT reads really low temps, but then the engine actually takes in air above 86*. Well, at 86*, the ECM starts pulling timing to protect the engine. But if you're reading ambient temp cooler than that (with relocated IAT), the ECM doesn't know to start pulling timing, and you may damage your engine.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCyjGTO...View Post
If the reading is accurrate where it is then tuning to match that is what tuning is for, The closer to the engine the warmer it ussually is, but air flow effects this. Once you put it where you wont get heat soak from hot parts( hard to do with the ls) then you tune in the timing and fuel to max power and safety.

PS: Heat soak will add Fuel , remove timing. Added fuel is cooling but robs power.

The factory calibration is already set for where the IAT sensor is. If you move it you would tune for the change. If you move it somewhere where its reading inaccurately in comparison to what the engine is taking in then you are possibly tuning with the wrong numbers.

Hot IATs shouldn't make the PCM add fuel, hotter air doesn't cause a lean condition. Hot air pulls fuel and timing, thus lowering power. Colder air is denser and requires more fuel to keep AFRs in check.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:56 PM   #14
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Thanks for all the responses so far...will have to read them more in the morning, but appreciate the feedback and so far sounds like it's not such a good idea then.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:00 AM   #15
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Just like everybody mentioned above, my biggest fear would be engine damage (inaccurate advance, retard, knock-retard...etc). This same concern applies to all the other "IAT fooling" mods and tricks! (playing with resistors and crap)...
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:18 AM   #16
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Have any of you guys actually seen the timing tables and/ or the iat timing retard tables for this car? You could set the IAT in a bucket of ice water and your not gonna damage anything.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:33 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikew...View Post
Best way imo would be getting colder air to the engine via otr intake then reading the air from that stream.

I use a RamJet OTR, which is similar in basic design to your Svede.
When I changed the position of the sensor from near the throttle body to just behind the air filter I picked up consistent mph at the end of the track.
I assume this is because the sensor is now in front of the radiator instead of sitting directly above and not getting heat soak from it.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:17 AM   #18
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Here is my experience. Stock IAT in the maf, stock airbox, 90 degrees outside and the IAT was at 160 degrees consistantly. 80 degrees out, 145-150.

I installed a SSOTR, kept the IAT in the maf, it's still in the engine bay, IAT numbers were 100 degrees on that 90 degree day. The numbers wouldn't get below 75 or so though, even if it was 40 degrees out, I imagine due to the engine bay heat.

Moral of the story, the stock airbox pulls in some hot ass air. Relocating it masks that. The flip side is the stock timing table is too aggressive in how much timing it pulls. IIRC it starts pulling timing at like 85 degrees and ramps up very quickly, which is why I made mine less aggressive.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:24 AM   #19
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It sucks we have such heat soak issues that we even have to worry about this. From what I recall, my CTS-V didn't have these issues, nor does/did any of my other cars but of course if it's 100 F outside, no car's going to be running its best. The only time I get real noticeable loss is if I'm in heavy traffic and it's not cool outside (say 70 F +) and wow does it get noticeable. Seems to go away after awhile, but still.

I'm sure the stock tune and parameters have a lot of safety built in and since this is the remote IAT, I don't think it's *quite* as bad as say an 05-06 with integral IAT in the MAF sensor. Weird thing is my nissan had that setup (IAT in MAF) and it never seemed to heat soak, but then again there was a decent distance from say the radiator and it was not in a metal housing.

Well, after reading all this I think I'll reluctantly put it back in oem location and live with this until I get an HPTuners (on list, but $$) so I can see what's going on...maybe it's not that bad, but I really can't afford a new engine right now...Just seems to me there are other safeguards from this going too lean (damage), but could be wrong.

Perhaps then afterward I'll try one of those omega deals and maybe it doesn't matter a whole lot where the IAT is to a degree (pun), but just don't want to take that chance right now, being blind with no information on what's truly going on.

The good part is since I've relocated it, I fixed that hose that ran from the radiator over to the TB (actually, I bypassed my TB cooling loop too, fwiw) and it's (the new tube) much farther down and one less direct heat source at the IAT location.

I don't care as much if the IAT reads ACTUAL air temp in the intake tube, provided it doesn't have any excessive outside radiant heat affecting it. To me, that is more the problem here and the ECU *thinks* the air is even hotter than it is. Well, maybe not like that, but hopefully you understand what I'm saying there...it seems that the built-up heat by the IAT being so close to the tube OD is picking up hotter outside air than what is actually passing into the TB, if that makes sense. I'm just glad I don't have a metal tube!

If any of you guys have a thermal infrared 'gun'. it is really interesting (and disheartening) to see just how fricken hot the entire engine bay is!

Last edited by JNR; 12-12-2012 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:03 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by slammin86...View Post
Have any of you guys actually seen the timing tables and/ or the iat timing retard tables for this car? You could set the IAT in a bucket of ice water and your not gonna damage anything.

Yes I have. lmao
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slammin86...View Post
Have any of you guys actually seen the timing tables and/ or the iat timing retard tables for this car? You could set the IAT in a bucket of ice water and your not gonna damage anything.

agreed. on the stock tune you arent going to go overly lean or run too much timing to hurt anything even if ran the sensor and let it dangle infront of the headlight.

if you are modded and tuned aggressively it might be detrimental.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:23 AM   #22
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It is consistently 108-115F here day after day in the summer. We get CA 91 octane laden with eth.

You should try your ice bucket trick down here in those conditions on a WOT run. The music from the combustion chambers will sound like cowbells.

Adjust your intake needs based on your environment. All that matters is the air entering the damn engine regardless of "outside" air temp. Many, including me, on this board have OTRCAIs that pull in as low as 4F above ambient consistently even in 114F ambient conditions. High IATs are a solvable problem and the answer lies more in intake design & location then sensor manipulation.

Yes, false heat soak is real and removing the sensor from an over hot location is advised. Putting it in an "over cool" location is not. Get an efficient air intake and place the sensor in the stream in a reasonable location and the problem is solved. Easy piesy.

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Old 12-12-2012, 08:33 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by slammin86...View Post
Have any of you guys actually seen the timing tables and/ or the iat timing retard tables for this car? You could set the IAT in a bucket of ice water and your not gonna damage anything.

Be careful of over-generalizations please. Maybe stock, yes. Modified? Not so much.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:36 AM   #24
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If you guys think the stock location sucks you should see the cruising temps when it's inserted into the Magnachargers aluminum manifold.

I have to check from my last tune but here is my IAT table that was used for some time.

Notice the temp before timing starts getting pulled.

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Old 12-12-2012, 09:16 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JNR...View Post
btw - this is a stock engine, stock tune, stock exhaust, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slammin86...View Post
Have any of you guys actually seen the timing tables and/ or the iat timing retard tables for this car? You could set the IAT in a bucket of ice water and your not gonna damage anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Chicken...View Post
Be careful of over-generalizations please. Maybe stock, yes. Modified? Not so much.

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Old 12-12-2012, 01:49 PM   #26
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I'm kinda surprised people are relocating the IAT sensor to read ambient temperature. I thought it was kinda a given that the point of the relocate was to get it away from the MAF but still have it read true intake temperature. lol
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:50 PM   #27
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I'm kinda surprised people are relocating the IAT sensor to read ambient temperature. I thought it was kinda a given that the point of the relocate was to get it away from the MAF but still have it read true intake temperature. lol

No, most people want to cheat and have it read lower air temps than reality. If your intake is heat soaked, so is your smurfing air. Fix the heat soak issue, don't mask it with bullshit data. People who put resistors or other hack kits on their IAT's, or stick their IAT's up their ass hoping it will run cooler are missing the entire point of what it does.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:02 PM   #28
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No, most people want to cheat and have it read lower air temps than reality. If your intake is heat soaked, so is your smurfing air. Fix the heat soak issue, don't mask it with bullshit data. People who put resistors or other hack kits on their IAT's, or stick their IAT's up their ass hoping it will run cooler are missing the entire point of what it does.

I guess I'm shocked someone would even think to relocate it out of the air stream. Seems blatantly stupid.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:00 AM   #29
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Have any of you guys actually seen the timing tables and/ or the iat timing retard tables for this car? You could set the IAT in a bucket of ice water and your not gonna damage anything.

Yeah except if your true intake temps are really high (but your IAT sensor is reading ambient temps) and you get on it hard the computer won't pull any timing even though it should be. Taking it hot air and running full timing is never a good thing, even with knock sensors.
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The cylinder heads became deformed because the air filter was so dirty they couldnt handle all the build up of air and oil coming through the air filter and the throttle body so i tried replacing the air tube with a cold air intake and i think the extra power blew out the cylinder heads and they crashed through valley pan into the crank. Then the crank spun hard and threw the pistons up to hard to cause a misfire

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Old 12-13-2012, 08:30 AM   #30
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It would seem more logical the IAT should be somewhere in the intake manifold, if a truer air temp into the cylinders was desired, although I'm sure there is some 'formula' taken into account with it in the tube and doubt the cheap sensor they use is *that* accurate anyway.
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