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Old 10-20-2017, 01:42 PM   #1
blackgoat90
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Alignment... How often do you guys do it?

I ask because I keep having issues with tire wear, getting aligned, periodically check the tires, and everything's fine for a year or so, get lax on checking the tires, and eventually go to change my break pads, and see that I have a big groove worn away on the inner edge of the passenger front tire, not on the side wall but at the edge of the tread. Seems like toe wear, and sure enough the alignment shop says my toe is out. I have battled with this type of wear for years, fixing little things here and there, changing tire manufacturers, etc, and I'm starting to just think that the alignment just doesn't stay.

Do you guys align every year? That seems extraordinarily excessive but might be necessary for my case, which is a pain because most places I go to don't understand how to do the rear alignment with quad eccentric rear control arm bushings.

The other possibility is that there is something wrong with my car that causes it to not hold alignment I suppose.

For reference, my tire wear issue is shown below

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Old 10-20-2017, 01:48 PM   #2
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There are numerous causes of tire wear in a GTO. At a minimum alignment should be checked with each set of tires.
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Old 10-20-2017, 01:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckman...View Post
There are numerous causes of tire wear in a GTO. At a minimum alignment should be checked with each set of tires.

Often times the above wear is what drives the new set of tires, in the front anyway...
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Old 10-20-2017, 01:55 PM   #4
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i forget where on the tire strut rub shows up, either on the edge of the tread or the sidewall... but it should show up as wear marks on the strut as well.

off the top of my head, other things i would check would be the knuckle to strut clevis bolts and the small bolt that adjusts the camber, ball joint wear, and strut mount wear.

if you ever have done any work that involved removing those two large knuckle-to-strut bolts, do you use new nord lock washers, or reuse the old ones?

Just thinking over time the bolts may loose torque and let the adjustment go out of spec. which is also probably kind of dangerous for other reasons...

i'll take a peek in the service manual tonight if i have time and see what else i can find.
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Old 10-20-2017, 02:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothubertjfarnsworth...View Post
i forget where on the tire strut rub shows up, either on the edge of the tread or the sidewall... but it should show up as wear marks on the strut as well.

off the top of my head, other things i would check would be the knuckle to strut clevis bolts and the small bolt that adjusts the camber, ball joint wear, and strut mount wear.

if you ever have done any work that involved removing those two large knuckle-to-strut bolts, do you use new nord lock washers, or reuse the old ones?

Just thinking over time the bolts may loose torque and let the adjustment go out of spec. which is also probably kind of dangerous for other reasons...

i'll take a peek in the service manual tonight if i have time and see what else i can find.

Probably should have mentioned that I have KW coilovers with Noltec offset strut mounts, and can confirm there is no contact between the tire and the coilover. As far as I can remember, I have never replaced those lock washers, but have definitely gone through several iterations of removing those bolts.

That would indeed be alarming if they were coming loose, or at least loose enough to shift under road impacts.

Standard inspection methods didn't show any issue with the ball joints the last time I had the issue and checked them, but its probably worth checking again...
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Old 10-20-2017, 07:13 PM   #6
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Only on the passenger front? How's the driver front? I started doing my own alignments about 15 years ago. A majority of shops don't have a clue what they are doing. My home made alignments show very even and regular tire wear. I struggled for a long time with rear inner tire wear when my car was new. It was the crap stock springs causing excessive negative camber. A really bad alignment tech will "set the toe and let it go". You might have excessive negative camber, a worn bushing, something physically rubbing. If you have been going to the same shop, go somewhere else for a different opinion.
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Old 10-24-2017, 04:10 PM   #7
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The issue was only on the passenger front, and since I got the two fronts aligned, I haven't noticed an issue yet. The shop just told me to install tie-rods so they could do the rear even though I tried to explain to them that there were eccentric bushings in the rear and no tie-rods... but I could tell that was not going to go anywhere good.

So I'm getting it aligned at a supposedly reputable shop next Monday, then have a weekend at the track in November. Might want to just go get it checked after the event to see if anything shifts... especially if I go off.

So I am guessing by the lack of folks saying they get aligned every year or so, this isn't a widespread GTO thing, and probably something with my car that causes the alignment to shift?
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Old 10-24-2017, 05:17 PM   #8
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I had my 04 aligned when i bought it couple years ago, Just the front needed it ,I have put about 800 miles on the car since the alignment best i can tell all is still fine,All my tires show even ware ,My car 18800 miles
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Old 10-25-2017, 03:23 AM   #9
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I'm a big fan of lifetime alignments from local, reputable shops. My guys here charge less than the price of 2 alignments for the lifetime and I get 2 free alignments a year. This was more important in the past when I modded my cars but still nice to have with the Goat. Plus they are a cool bunch and I enjoy a morning at the shop drinking coffee and picking their brains.
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Old 10-25-2017, 05:14 AM   #10
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Hey, that looks familiar.
For my car it was the radius rod bushings, haven't needed an alignment since.



https://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213393
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Old 10-25-2017, 05:24 AM   #11
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134k miles on my car. Only had alignment issues twice. First when it was new. Radius rod bushings (along with full Pedders suspension) fixed that. The other time was last year when a tie rod went out. I have it checked often since my wife works in service but it's never out.
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Old 10-26-2017, 10:02 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS2-GTO...View Post
Hey, that looks familiar.
For my car it was the radius rod bushings, haven't needed an alignment since.



https://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213393

Damn, that looks exactly the same.

Odd though as I have blue front and rear radius rod bushings...

So, with a failed radius rod bushing you effectively run around with toe out, right?
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Old 10-26-2017, 02:23 PM   #13
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I replaced the tie rod ends a few months ago. The new ones were of the same exact measurements. Very convenient, I thought. The car still pulled like it did after traversing that damn speed bump. Just a few days ago, I checked tire pressures. All four corners were equally low, at 25 pounds. Remember 'equally' because the car then magically began tracking straight after adding 5 pounds to each. Still can't figure out this one.
So, at the moment, no alignment until doing a full suspension rebuild. I will do a tire rotation before the weather turns, though.
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Old 10-27-2017, 04:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackgoat90...View Post
Damn, that looks exactly the same.

Odd though as I have blue front and rear radius rod bushings...

So, with a failed radius rod bushing you effectively run around with toe out, right?

I don't remember exactly but the steering wheel was never straight, car pulled inconsistently and if I got on the brakes hard the tire would practically contact the wheel well.

The other problem was I'd get an alignment check and everything would show good - when static on the alignment rig. Drive the car and everything would go out of wack.

Pedders RR bushing we're a necessary investment and are still functioning properly after many years and many miles.
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS2-GTO...View Post
I don't remember exactly but the steering wheel was never straight, car pulled inconsistently and if I got on the brakes hard the tire would practically contact the wheel well.

The other problem was I'd get an alignment check and everything would show good - when static on the alignment rig. Drive the car and everything would go out of wack.

Pedders RR bushing we're a necessary investment and are still functioning properly after many years and many miles.

Yeah, I'm not too suspecting of the RR bushings because I have Noltec bits on both the front and the rear, and this problem existed when they were brand new. Also not getting inconsistent pulling or odd behavior under braking.

That sounds similar though, I would get it aligned but then either something went out of whack immediately, or the alignment got smurfed over time. Usually after an alignment, the car tracks straight, but the steering wheel is turned slightly to the right. I thought maybe that was just due to road crown, but one time, I went back to the place that aligned it and said that the wheel wasn't straight, so he had me hold it in place where I wanted it and checked it again. The odd thing I noticed was as soon as he loosened up the machine, the wheel just turned to the right slightly... weird.

I'll see what happens on Monday.. hopefully if there is something odd these guys can pin it down.
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Old 10-27-2017, 11:50 AM   #16
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Does anyone have an idea of what the alignment specs should be on these cars? I have a rack at work and can do it myself, id just like to know what specs are best to set it up as. Currently lowered on BC coilovers and have whiteline strut bushings and radius rod bushings.
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Old 10-27-2017, 05:40 PM   #17
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Search. They are posted here numerous times.

https://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=747042
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:29 AM   #18
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I have had issues for 2 years now with my camber changing routinely, ruining many many tires. Had to make some tabs to keep the knuckles in place.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:31 PM   #19
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I get mine aligned once a year. Sometimes it is out and sometimes it is not.
I have no tire wear either. jmtc
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Old 10-30-2017, 07:26 AM   #20
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My alignment guy wasn't tightening the retaining screw on the front struts. That bastard. I can tell if you a lowered car just a slight change in tire pressure can change the alignment of the steering wheel.
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Old 11-28-2017, 02:52 PM   #21
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So a quick update on this.

The shop I took it to said one of my eccentric bushings was loose... this could have easily caused the tire wear issue. I'm not 100% convinced because this issue had occurred before I had eccentrics put in, but for now things seem to be holding up. (Other than my aftermarket motormounts that failed at the track...)

Hopefully it was just that the shop that installed them didn't tighten them enough.. One can only hope.
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Old 11-28-2017, 02:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiPopeye36...View Post
Search. They are posted here numerous times.

https://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=747042


This has nothing to do with my question so that isn't very helpful.

Edit: Nevermind, missed the post before this.

Last edited by blackgoat90; 11-28-2017 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 11-28-2017, 03:00 PM   #23
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That's because it was the answer to someone else's question lol.
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Old 11-28-2017, 03:03 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookmeup272...View Post
That's because it was the answer to someone else's question lol.

OH. Lol that makes more sense.
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Old 12-05-2017, 02:01 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackgoat90...View Post
So a quick update on this.

The shop I took it to said one of my eccentric bushings was loose... this could have easily caused the tire wear issue. I'm not 100% convinced because this issue had occurred before I had eccentrics put in, but for now things seem to be holding up. (Other than my aftermarket motormounts that failed at the track...)

Hopefully it was just that the shop that installed them didn't tighten them enough.. One can only hope.

Can you tell me what shop you went to and where they're located? I've been looking for a good alignment place.


Thanks,
Cole
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO-Cole...View Post
Can you tell me what shop you went to and where they're located? I've been looking for a good alignment place.


Thanks,
Cole

I got referred to a BMW shop called Bavarian Motorsport in Milpitas. They were expensive but they seemed to do a good job. Doesn't seem like my eccentrics in the rear have loosened so I'm happy so far.

Milpitas isn't close to Simi though unfortunately...
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:42 PM   #27
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A year and a half later and I have this problem again only now its much more pronounced on the driver side...

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's one of two things:

Outer tie rod ends are stock and have 93k miles on them
The GTO needs more toe-in than regular cars

Could be inner tie rod or ball joints I suppose but it doesn't sound like those are as likely as the outer tie rod ends.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:27 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackgoat90...View Post
The GTO needs more toe-in than regular cars

Main reason for tire wear is toe. It is best to set it at 0 toe for tire wear.
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Old 07-11-2019, 01:57 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellow...View Post
Main reason for tire wear is toe. It is best to set it at 0 toe for tire wear.

I've heard it said that you want slight toe in so under load the wheels are straight. Then I red that GTOs front wheels splay back more than most due to suspension geometry and should use extra toe-in to avoid toe out wear, something along the lines of 0.10 on each wheel.



I'll try anything. Heck, maybe I'll just go under there and give each side a turn and see what happens. Couldn't hurt if they both change the same amount.
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackgoat90...View Post
I've heard it said that you want slight toe in so under load the wheels are straight. Then I red that GTOs front wheels splay back more than most due to suspension geometry and should use extra toe-in to avoid toe out wear, something along the lines of 0.10 on each wheel.



I'll try anything. Heck, maybe I'll just go under there and give each side a turn and see what happens. Couldn't hurt if they both change the same amount.

Not only because of suspension geometry. OEM suspension bushings on GTO are not that great and finding correct toe-in to compensate for all the movements under different loads will get you close to having correct toe on average, at best. And it will be off, lots of the time, in one or the other direction. Having strut mounts, control arm bushings and ball joints, radius arm bushings and tie rod ball joints in good order is starting point. If any of these parts are worn out, alignment is out the window the second you start driving again.
Upgrading to stronger, higher quality and in case of bushings, stiffer parts will keep the wheels in alignment more of the time. Tightening all the nuts and bolts in the suspension little pass specified torque may help with keeping it in alignment for longer (over-tighten at your own risk!!!).
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