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He does. You just have to continually check the site and be lucky and buy it as soon as you see it.
Ive been watching myself.
AFR 245's with rec port adapters vs stock 823's? Now LSA vs Procharger
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Ive been watching myself.
Pro charger does have the advantage of almost no heat soak and lower intake air temps. PD blower is right on top of the engine compressing the air right there.
on a centrifugal you can run a beast intercooler and per pound of boost be more efficient. That’s why the air filter is in the engine bay the intercooler takes care of it.
just wanted to add a procharger pro.
Also I would argue the power curve of a centrifugal is more streetable at huge power levels as it builds through the rpm range letting you control the power to the ground.
I would bet that the fastest cars out there are running F series pro chargers.
on a centrifugal you can run a beast intercooler and per pound of boost be more efficient. That’s why the air filter is in the engine bay the intercooler takes care of it.
just wanted to add a procharger pro.
Also I would argue the power curve of a centrifugal is more streetable at huge power levels as it builds through the rpm range letting you control the power to the ground.
I would bet that the fastest cars out there are running F series pro chargers.
I will agree a Procharger has a more progressive/controllable boost curve. I will also agree the faster cars are running F series or bigger. But I do think that’s part of the fun of a roots blower is the ability to spin the wheels instantly lol
With enough tire and suspension any amount of power will hook even if it is instant
With enough tire and suspension any amount of power will hook even if it is instant
Well I misspoke when I said the fastest cars are centrifugal(I'm talking typical drag/street cars running 8's).
Actually I remembered that Top Fuel uses a monster PD blower and they get that power to the ground, lol.
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Be careful using what works in specific classes as examples of what combinations work best. Class rules dictate what combo's are used. Turbo's and centri's aren't allowed in top fuel. Look at pro mod since they've started allowing prochargers now they are having great success in that class instantly. More people are moving away from turbo's in classes where prochargers are allowed as well. For example no prep racing is seeing more and more procharged combo's even people like Ryan Martin are moving to procharger.
The linear power is so much more effective and easier on the entire driveline. Even the little D1x can make 1000 hp with ease on ethanol.
Heads make little difference on a boosted combo at the power level the OP is looking for. I trapped 114 mph in the 1/8th with a D1x using untouched 241 heads. Also flow numbers don't tell the whole story regardless of bore size or exhaust pipe used for the test. Don't ignore velocity. It's not going to matter much with boost either, but the large rectangle ports don't have the throttle response of cathedral port heads.
My recommendation for power adder in a street car is always procharger. With that said for a goal of 500-600 rwhp which is ridiculously low by todays standard for boosted setups the LSA will work perfectly fine. So if you are going with the LSA I'd sell the AFR heads and use the square port heads assuming you have enough bore to use them. I can blow 275/50/15 ET street R tires off from 60 mph with ease without even down shifting to 2nd gear of my auto with a procharger. There is no issue with not enough throttle response or torque in a street car with a procharger. Because the procharger power is linear they get that bad rap from people that only want to run 7 or 8 psi peak which does leave something to be desired. Start running 12+ psi from the procharger and it really starts to shine. Yes I understand boost pressure doesn't tell the whole story as a more efficient engine combo will make more power with less boost. For the purpose of this discussion and stock bottom end LS engines it's easier just to use a boost number as a point of reference. I pull timing out down low and in the midrange in order to get down the track without blowing the tires off so much I get sideways. Remember this is with a procharger that isn't suppose to have enough power down low or in the midrange.
I know the 500-600 is a pretty modest goal. But I’d like to keep the thing more street friendly and enjoyable to drive. I’ve had a couple of local guys tell me they wish they wouldn’t have gone so far with their car and kept it more reasonable.
Good friend of mine had a 6.0 F1 Procharged S10. Badass truck. But he said it got to the point between the slicks, mini spool, big stall, no AC etc it wasn’t fun to drive on the street
Good friend of mine had a 6.0 F1 Procharged S10. Badass truck. But he said it got to the point between the slicks, mini spool, big stall, no AC etc it wasn’t fun to drive on the street
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that's when you give up, sell your soul to the devil, and buy a testa model s plaid +.
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No one said you had to get rid of AC, run a big stall, spool, and slicks. That's the good thing about boost...you don't need a ridiculous cam or high stall. If you are only driving on the street without slicks even the stock diff with a good posi unit will hold up fine. I don't know how much power I'm making, but to trap 114 mph in the 1/8 with a 3900 lb race weight it's got to be 800+ rwhp easily. No problems street driving it here is a video of a little cruise on the street with it...I even have a spool, stall, drag radials, and skinnies so it would be even more street friendly without those things which aren't really needed if you don't put a priority on ET at the track. I have a couple more psi now as I'm maxing the blower out now, but haven't ran the car yet to see what it will pick up. I don't really get on it until about 3/4 the way through the video...main point was to show how street able a car like this really is. I have friends that run in no prep small tire stuff with way more power that occasionally drive their cars to the local track as well just to prove a point, but they certainly aren't daily capable. We're talking 1700-2000 rwhp cars on 275/60/15 tires that run in the 4's on no prep. Some people have a higher tolerance for what they can handle on the street. Older dudes usually don't mind these types of cars because they grew up driving cars with manual chokes, no power steering, terrible clutches, 3 on the tree, no ac, no power brakes, etc. as the normal...LOL
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When I enter 114.67 mph at 3900 lbs this calculator says a little over 900 hp, but I think that is crank horse power. I tune on the street and track and have not been on a dyno.
1/8th Mile ET-MPH-HP Calculator
1/8th Mile ET-MPH-HP Calculator
So you're still on a D1X then correct? Bob said some guys have fitment issues with D1X blowers. Guess I'm more curious if the race upgrades are really necessary or not. Gives room to grow I guess incase I ever want to go further so that'd be nice.
I emailed Bob at Brute and he gave me a price of $7600 for a full D1X kit, Procharger's race bypass valve and IC, along with the ATI balancer.
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Yep just a little D1x. In my opinion it's a better blower than the F1a. If you want more than the D1x skip the F1a and go with an F1a-94. You do want the race bov and larger intercooler with ati balancer and 8 rib setup. I double pinned my crank as well. Procharger rates the D1x at 1075 horse, the F1a at 1100 horse, and the F1a-94 at 1300 horse. The D1x is a more efficient blower with lower IAT's than the F1a and actually seems to make more power in street cars often times than the F1a plus it's not as loud if that matters to you.
You will want to go further it always happens eventually with boost because it's too easy to add more power. I have a custom cam from Cam motion which is really what made my setup in my opinion. I'm using an ls3 block with forged rods and pistons and just carried over my old top end from the ls1. I sold my stock short block and reused my stock 241 heads, ls6 intake, and stock throttle body on the new motor. All I did is put a .660 lift btr spring kit in my 241 heads and ran them. Max effort rocker arms from ws6store, 11/32 .120 wall pushrods from summit, and genuine ls7 lifters setup with the proper preload plus that nice custom cam from cammotion. It works. I'm probably down 50 to 100 horse from the potential of the blower due to the restrictive top end, but as you can see from my trap speed and video it's responsive and probably still making over 900 at the crank.
Since the time that I made that video and my last track pass I changed the blower pulley from a 3.85 to a 3.7 and removed the restrictive intake tube so I picked up a couple psi so maybe 50 more horse. I also run an 8.25 lower pulley which I highly recommend for more belt wrap. I’m shifting at 6900 rpm and spinning the blower just over max recommended impeller speed now.
Good luck!
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You sure are convincing and make me want to contemplate a procharger in the future. Think the only thing that would hold me back is all the extra bracketry/piping in the engine bay compared to the tvs
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LOL...every power adder has it's pro's and con's. I like them all even nitrous.
He is pretty convincing isn't he? lol A Procharger is what I wanted initially but grew to hate the number of parts it takes between the brackets, pipes, fan shroud etc.
But the ability to upgrade blowers is nice. The non heat soak issue is also nice. The blower clearing the hood with no fuss is nice as well.
I'd still consider it. I actually ended up selling my AFR's yesterday. Even if I don't go LSA I think the money is better spent toward a Procharger than heads for a forced induction application. The stock 243's are decent enough.
If I went Procharger I'd at least like to find a Fast 92 so I don't need an adapter for the throttle body for the LS6 intake. (I bought this car a roller and ended up with a 3 bolt intake and an adapter to use the 4 bolt DBW throttle body)
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Totally agree. My nissan 240sx i had turbo-d really drove me nuts with piping/oil&water cooling.
Ive driven a terminator mustang but havent had the experience with a centri (id imagine it was quite like my 240 since it had a smaller turbo)
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A centri isn’t really like a turbo at all. None of that hot side stuff under the hood. Self contained oil so no cross contamination or heating of engine oil. No lag and no load dependent boost as boost is directly related to rpm. Linear power delivery so it’s predictable and controllable power so you don’t wait for boost and then suddenly come into boost blowing the tires off on high horse power setups. Way less under hood heat than any other power adder except nitrous. Those lower iat’s not only build power, but are safer for your engine and less likely to cause detonation. Easier maintenance and plug changing than a turbo which is huge if you like to check plugs like I do when tuning. I actually recently pulled my engine to replace the oil pan gasket and the only intercooler piping I had to remove was the pipe at the throttle body.
For the OP’s goal any form of boost will work well. I think he’s narrowed it down to an LSA or procharger, but he could also consider a Magnuson 2300 or 2650 for room to grow. For his goals I would rule out a turbo as it’s way more work. Having to deal with the oiling and under hood issues for that low power isn’t worth it in my opinion.
Here are my personal choices:
Under 500 rwhp:
LSA or roots blower of some type: at this low of power level you will experience the lack of low end the procharger is known for so roots blower gets the nod IMO.
500-700 rwhp:
Either roots or Procharger. At this point you start running enough boost the procharger will not be weak in the low rpm and the midrange starts to really get exciting along with the obvious high rpm power of the centri.
700-1000 rwhp:
Procharger all day every day. At this point low rpm power isn’t an issue. Still not the flat curve of a roots, but you will be making more torque than you can use even with the centri so the linear delivery of the centri at least makes it controllable. Some of the larger roots or twin screws are still an option here as they can make this power level I just prefer the Procharger for a street car in this range.
1000-1200 rwhp:
At this range a turbo finally starts to be worth it IMO. I personally would still go Procharger f1a-94 here, but there is a serious case for a turbo at this point. I would not run a roots or twin screw in a street car at this level you will have stupid amounts of torque with any of the power adders on v8 at this power level. It can be done obviously, but you will probably be slower than the other power adders at this level with a street car.
1200 plus rwhp:
At this point it’s all turbo. The other power adders can make this level, but start getting pretty rowdy and noisy for a street car in order to do it. The ability to easily dial down boost really makes the turbo the best option here.
Obviously most of that is all opinions and is for true street cars as well. If it’s a race car I’m still going Procharger but it will be a gear drive setup and air to water intercooler.
With any form of boost a return system with a boost referenced regulator after the rails is highly recommended. After tuning cars with dead head fuel systems and regulators in the rear just eliminate the head aches and get a proper fuel system in it from the git go. If at all possible run e85 or flex fuel it's so much more forgiving and easier to tune than pump gas as well as adding an easy 50+ rwhp on high hp boosted setups over pump gas. It even makes more power than race gas on boosted setups in most cases.
You make several great points and you do kind of have me leaning back toward a Procharger
I guess I should go back on my statement of initially wanting the Procharger. From the very very beginning I wanted a Maggie 2300 for what looks to be a super easy install and adding basically zero clutter to the engine. But I kinda shifted over to Procharger simply due to the fact that I can buy it in pieces and don’t have to drop 7500 at once.
I think we should put me in the 700-1000 category since like you said it’s too easy to make more boost and power. My previous roots blower cars I did a few pulley drops for more boost and even to this day consider meth on my daily so I can do a much smaller pulley and up the boost a decent bit.
Another question. I know at the lower power levels heads and intake aren’t really necessary. However I want to get rid of my LS6 intake to use a 4 bolt intake. I’d prefer a Fast 92 but finding those used is hard and I don’t have the desire to spend 900+ on a new one. The alternative is to top swap it over to an LS3 intake/heads. That’ll get me the 90mm intake I want and heads that flow 50-60cfm more than my 243’s. I’ve sourced the parts local and can do it for about 800 bucks less injectors. About the price of a Fast 92 to replace the top end and I believe the LS3 top end will give better results all around. I also have a buyer for my LS6 intake at 300 bucks so that would offset the cost as well
Thoughts? I know it’s not necessary at all but this will give me a decent top end and the ability to go either LSA or Procharger without any adverse effects.
I guess I should go back on my statement of initially wanting the Procharger. From the very very beginning I wanted a Maggie 2300 for what looks to be a super easy install and adding basically zero clutter to the engine. But I kinda shifted over to Procharger simply due to the fact that I can buy it in pieces and don’t have to drop 7500 at once.
I think we should put me in the 700-1000 category since like you said it’s too easy to make more boost and power. My previous roots blower cars I did a few pulley drops for more boost and even to this day consider meth on my daily so I can do a much smaller pulley and up the boost a decent bit.
Another question. I know at the lower power levels heads and intake aren’t really necessary. However I want to get rid of my LS6 intake to use a 4 bolt intake. I’d prefer a Fast 92 but finding those used is hard and I don’t have the desire to spend 900+ on a new one. The alternative is to top swap it over to an LS3 intake/heads. That’ll get me the 90mm intake I want and heads that flow 50-60cfm more than my 243’s. I’ve sourced the parts local and can do it for about 800 bucks less injectors. About the price of a Fast 92 to replace the top end and I believe the LS3 top end will give better results all around. I also have a buyer for my LS6 intake at 300 bucks so that would offset the cost as well
Thoughts? I know it’s not necessary at all but this will give me a decent top end and the ability to go either LSA or Procharger without any adverse effects.
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Keep in mind you will lose some compression and throttle response with the ls3 stuff, but gain a good amount up top. I personally would keep what you have. Better heads are always a nice improvement, but for that $800 ls3 swap you may gain 50 rwhp up top while losing throttle response. You could easily gain that 50 rwhp up top while not losing throttle response by running a slightly smaller blower pulley to pick up a couple psi. The Procharger will not have iat issues with the big intercooler at that power level which is the only concern with running more boost. I always say for the budget minded person more boost is always the answer. You can run a more efficient setup by adding cubic inches, better heads, better intake, throttle body, better exhaust, etc, but all of those things cost more than just adding boost.
If you go LSA then absolutely run the ls3 heads if going Procharger then keep what you have.
Remember all of this is just my opinions and sharing a little of what goes into my thinking to form my opinions.
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You do have the fun option of going up there to buy one.
It's a sweet space. I bought a power steering reservoir relocation bracket from them on my last goat and saw some cool things when I was there.
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