[Westphal]

I didn't lose compression going from 243 to 841 (LS3) heads, but I also had them milled .030" to reduce the combustion chamber size. Throttle response is just as good as before, maybe better since I played with the spark advance table. One thing to consider is that reducing compression might be a good thing with a blower, keeping you safer from detonation.

 

[PurpleGuy]

If you go LSA then absolutely run the ls3 heads if going Procharger then keep what you have.
Remember all of this is just my opinions and sharing a little of what goes into my thinking to form my opinions.

This is the million dollar question and the ultimate determining factory

I do appreciate the input and opinions. I’m as indecisive as they come so all the more info helps

 

[hadagto]

This is the million dollar question and the ultimate determining factory

I do appreciate the input and opinions. I’m as indecisive as they come so all the more info helps

Enjoy the process. Half the fun for me is planning the build. Just during planning make sure you play chess not checkers. Don't just think about the next mod, but where that mod will take you, what is next, and what is the big picture for the end goal as well as leaving room in case your end power goal increases.

I wouldn't mill the heads and if you do ever have the heads off I recommend going to ARP head studs and LS9 gaskets while you are at it. ARP head studs and LS9 gaskets have been used up to 1200 rwhp with good success.

Regardless of whether you go LSA or procharger you need to decide now what fuel you will run and plan the fuel system to handle more than your long term goals. Do it once now and be done with it. Also keep in mind with E85 you can run 10.5 to 11 compression safely with boost easily while with pump gas or even pump plus meth the tuning window is very narrow with compression in that range.

Here is a video of highlights of my current build:

 

[Sacrifice]

You do have the fun option of going up there to buy one.

It's a sweet space. I bought a power steering reservoir relocation bracket from them on my last goat and saw some cool things when I was there.

At procharger here in lenexa?

 

[Burnoutaccountant]

At procharger here in lenexa?

Yup.

 

[Sacrifice]

Yup.

Is it their headquarters? Havent actually been by there but it would be cool.

Idk if theyd have kits specifically though would they? Id imagine more like eaton where they sell to magnuson/ATI?

 

[Burnoutaccountant]

Is it their headquarters? Havent actually been by there but it would be cool.

Idk if theyd have kits specifically though would they? Id imagine more like eaton where they sell to magnuson/ATI?

It is the headquarters. I tried to work there lol. They pay shit. When I bought that bracket is when c7 vetted came out so it was cool to see them messing with them. I'm sure you'd see a v8 now or some other cool cars.

ProCharger GTO Systems | ProCharger

Learn more about: 2006-2004 Pontiac GTO (LS1, LS2) at ProCharger.com Get details about the 2006-2004 Pontiac GTO (LS1, LS2) superchargers and where to buy the ProCharger parts for the Pontiac.

www.procharger.com

 

[Sacrifice]

It is the headquarters. I tried to work there lol. They pay shit. When I bought that bracket is when c7 vetted came out so it was cool to see them messing with them. I'm sure you'd see a v8 now or some other cool cars.

ProCharger GTO Systems | ProCharger

Learn more about: 2006-2004 Pontiac GTO (LS1, LS2) at ProCharger.com Get details about the 2006-2004 Pontiac GTO (LS1, LS2) superchargers and where to buy the ProCharger parts for the Pontiac.

www.procharger.com

Ive tried applying, lol. No luck though either. Itd be cool to say the least

 

[Sacrifice]

Enjoy the process. Half the fun for me is planning the build. Just during planning make sure you play chess not checkers. Don't just think about the next mod, but where that mod will take you, what is next, and what is the big picture for the end goal as well as leaving room in case your end power goal increases.

I wouldn't mill the heads and if you do ever have the heads off I recommend going to ARP head studs and LS9 gaskets while you are at it. ARP head studs and LS9 gaskets have been used up to 1200 rwhp with good success.

Regardless of whether you go LSA or procharger you need to decide now what fuel you will run and plan the fuel system to handle more than your long term goals. Do it once now and be done with it. Also keep in mind with E85 you can run 10.5 to 11 compression safely with boost easily while with pump gas or even pump plus meth the tuning window is very narrow with compression in that range.

Here is a video of highlights of my current build:

In order to change the stock serpentine do you have to remove the procharger?

Also been reading of people using a wastegate on them occasionally and pulley-ing for max boost.

 

[hadagto]

In order to change the stock serpentine do you have to remove the procharger?

Also been reading of people using a wastegate on them occasionally and pulley-ing for max boost.

Yes so put a new serpentine on it while you are doing the install and you will most likely never need another one before you have other problems to deal with. A waste gate on a procharger is just plain stupid...LOL...If you pulley for max boost and use a waste gate you are just creating more heat for what purpose? To gain more boost down low while limiting peak boost. You gain nothing doing that here is why...you think you are saving the motor by limiting peak boost while giving yourself more down low, but it's actually too much cylinder pressure down low that is harmful for your engine. To much boost or timing down low bends rods on sbe as well as hurts ring lands and bearings. Why do you think tuners pull timing around peak torque or down low and then ramp it back up at higher rpm? At higher rpm you can run more boost and timing safely so let the procharger be what the procharger is a linear power delivery. If you are dead set on more down low without adding more boost up top then you should go with a roots blower instead of a procharger and let it do what it does best.

I know I sounded a bit harsh and do not think you are stupid it's an honest question. I just needed to stress how bad of an idea adding a waste gate on a procharger is...LOL

 

[Sacrifice]

Yes so put a new serpentine on it while you are doing the install and you will most likely never need another one before you have other problems to deal with. A waste gate on a procharger is just plain stupid...LOL...If you pulley for max boost and use a waste gate you are just creating more heat for what purpose? To gain more boost down low while limiting peak boost. You gain nothing doing that here is why...you think you are saving the motor by limiting peak boost while giving yourself more down low, but it's actually too much cylinder pressure down low that is harmful for your engine. To much boost or timing down low bends rods on sbe as well as hurts ring lands and bearings. Why do you think tuners pull timing around peak torque or down low and then ramp it back up at higher rpm? At higher rpm you can run more boost and timing safely so let the procharger be what the procharger is a linear power delivery. If you are dead set on more down low without adding more boost up top then you should go with a roots blower instead of a procharger and let it do what it does best.

I know I sounded a bit harsh and do not think you are stupid it's an honest question. I just needed to stress how bad of an idea adding a waste gate on a procharger is...LOL

All good just asking questions. I just know tvs or procharger is in the future (if i keep the goat, id only get rid of it for a vette though) so its nice hearing your opinion.

Streetability is a priority but i like the idea of blowing off the tires at will (who doesnt). Not a strip guy and wont be racing at all.

 

[PurpleGuy]

I think the verdict is going to be LSA. I think for the modest power I want a Procharger while very beneficial is just overkill since I won't use near the potential. I never plan on pulling this motor back out or touching the rotating assembly. I think I'd be better off using the money saved toward suspension, driveline etc.

 

[hadagto]

I think the verdict is going to be LSA. I think for the modest power I want a Procharger while very beneficial is just overkill since I won't use near the potential. I never plan on pulling this motor back out or touching the rotating assembly. I think I'd be better off using the money saved toward suspension, driveline etc.

LOL...Any boost is better than no boost. Good luck!

 

[PurpleGuy]

For sure. I guess good thing is if I change my mind and want more after an LSA it'll at least have a decent set of heads on it

 

[hadagto]

For sure. I guess good thing is if I change my mind and want more after an LSA it'll at least have a decent set of heads on it

At the power levels we are discussing with boost heads really don't deliver the best bang for the buck. I know at this point you will already have the heads on the motor so absolutely you would keep them. For purpose of discussion lets think of a 800-900 rwhp goal and pretend we are currently at 750 rwhp. We already have a good cam for the combo and a good exhaust, but the top end is stock. We want to get to 800-900 rwhp and have a procharger that isn't maxed out yet. We are at 13 psi of boost to make the 750 rwhp we are currently at. So we know that if the procharger is still in it's efficiency range and not maxed out we can realistically expect about 25 rwhp per pound of boost with no other changes. So we add 3 psi with a smaller pulley on the blower and go from 750 rwhp to 825 rwhp. The pulley cost about $100 and we are now at 16 psi of boost. Another option is we can put better heads/intake/throttle body on it. This will lower our boost levels due to being more efficient, but if we also change the pulley to get our boost back up to 13 psi we could pick up anywhere from 50-100 rwhp. Same power level as adding 3-4 psi of boost without spending the money on heads/intake/throttle body/head gaskets/intake gaskets/head bolts or studs and possible other things like map sensor extension, throttle body adapters or brackets for cable if needed. A lot of minor things but they add up vs just switching a pulley and calling it a day. So one combo makes 825 rwhp with 16 psi and the other makes 825 rwhp with 13 psi both spinning the procharger to the same impeller speed. Is one setup better than the other? Could you tell by seat of the pants or by ET ran at the track? Would IAT be higher with one over the other? If IAT was higher on one setup would it be enough to matter?

This post is simply to make people think a bit... The cheapest way to make more power is always with more boost as long as your blower or turbo is still in it's efficiency range. Some people are fascinated by trying to make big power with the lowest amount of boost possible. While that isn't a bad thing it isn't really needed at power levels below 1000 rwhp and it costs a lot more.

A good fuel system to support E85 with a return and boost referenced regulator would gain as much or more power than good heads on a boosted setup. A good cam/valve train, E85, and headers/good exhaust are the most essential things with the biggest gains on a boosted setup in my opinion.

 

[PurpleGuy]

Okay so on the topic of fuel. Let's just say end goal is on the low range of the 700-1000. Call it 700whp. I have access to E85 everywhere around here. Closest station is less than 2 miles and there are everywhere here. I'm assuming a DW300 won't be enough for 700 on E85. Probably need a 400? As far as a return. Is it okay to use the stock EVAP line or do you prefer to keep the EVAP line intact and run a new line back? The car is catless and probably always will be so I'm not really concerned of any smell that would result and we don't have emissions testing so don't care about that either. I also have HPT and can turn off all the EVAP codes. I fully intend to tune this car myself when done.

I'll do some research on fuel stuff but just curious on your opinion since you seem to have quite a bit of info and experience.

 

[hadagto]

Okay so on the topic of fuel. Let's just say end goal is on the low range of the 700-1000. Call it 700whp. I have access to E85 everywhere around here. Closest station is less than 2 miles and there are everywhere here. I'm assuming a DW300 won't be enough for 700 on E85. Probably need a 400? As far as a return. Is it okay to use the stock EVAP line or do you prefer to keep the EVAP line intact and run a new line back? The car is catless and probably always will be so I'm not really concerned of any smell that would result and we don't have emissions testing so don't care about that either. I also have HPT and can turn off all the EVAP codes. I fully intend to tune this car myself when done.

I'll do some research on fuel stuff but just curious on your opinion since you seem to have quite a bit of info and experience.

Many options on fuel systems. I would run a new feed line with ptfe line and use the stock feed line as a return. That is what I did even though I ditched the evap stuff I didn't use the evap line for fuel. I have a dw300c in the tank and an external magnafuel 4303. Here is my fuel pump:


Here is the layout under the hood. Very simple and effective. -8 an ptfe from pump to engine bay then Y to the back of both rails. Out the front of both rails into the regulator then out regulator to return to tank. Base pressure is 58 so at idle in vacuum it will be less (about 51 in my case) and has a 1 to 1 rise in boost so at 15 lbs of boost fuel pressure will be 73 psi. Go with at least 1000 cc injectors with E85, but going bigger would be a good idea just incase you get greedy later you will not need to buy another set.

 

[PurpleGuy]

That looks like a nice setup, I'm not looking to get that serious though honestly. I'd like to keep it limited to a single in tank pump and a hotwire if needed. If that ends up being a limitation in power then so be it. I don't race the car. I mostly just cruise around with friends. It's been to the track one time. I just want it to make cool noises and do burnouts lol

I'm okay with running an external reg that's boost referenced though. I'll have to see how guys are running LSA's on a return setup

 

[hadagto]

That looks like a nice setup, I'm not looking to get that serious though honestly. I'd like to keep it limited to a single in tank pump and a hotwire if needed. If that ends up being a limitation in power then so be it. I don't race the car. I mostly just cruise around with friends. It's been to the track one time. I just want it to make cool noises and do burnouts lol

I'm okay with running an external reg that's boost referenced though. I'll have to see how guys are running LSA's on a return setup

I'm not a fan of hotwire or boost a pump stuff. If you run a single large pump in the bucket with the stock regulator you can have excessively high fuel pressure at idle and part throttle. You will also have a pressure drop during hard acceleration until it catches back up at the rails because the regulator is at the rear of a dead head setup. This is all the opposite of what you want and what a return system with a boost referenced regulator after the rails will correct. You can tune around these issues as I've done it, but it's not ideal and will cause fuel heating.

I may sound critical a lot of the time. I'm only trying to help steer people away from problems and unnecessary expenses where possible as well as describe the differences in power adders in the best way I can on a forum. I certainly wouldn't take the time to type all of this up and share pics/videos just to be a butt head.

Don't cheap out on fuel system of a boosted setup. While you don't need to build it for insane levels I would recommend over killing it so you don't have to revisit it the first time you want more boost. I would spend money on the fuel system before heads, intake, throttle body, or drive train even since you aren't racing it.

 

[JoeMama's GTO]

Hadagto is speaking from a lot of experience. I would like to add that its fairly easy to eliminate/simplify the procharger piping. I have exactly two pipes now; one from the headunit to the intercooler and one to the TB. Granted this is with a different radiator but its totally doable. For plug changes it takes all of 30 seconds to remove the air inlet.

Heads and intake are a waste unless they are needed to avoid adapters.

For injectors go as big as you can still tune at idle with a 45 psi base pressure; don't be afraid to go 1300-1600cc. Buying injectors twice sucks (I am on my 4th set including a drilled out set). A big fuel pump, teflon lined 8 -an fuel lines, and a good regulator will get you rest of the way.

Having said all that, for the 500-800 HP crowd I would go with Auto=Procharger and Stick=Roots. The powerband differences just makes sense for the different drivetrains.