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Discussion Starter #1
Hope Everyone Remembers This!! We Have Found, And In Fact A Bulletin Has Just Come Out That Talks About Oil Getting On The Maf Sensor And How It Can Damage It. But This Is The Kicker!. The Maf Sensor Is One Of The Critical Sensors That Helps Determine Line Pressures In The Auto Transmission. You Can Burn Up A Trans If Oil Gets On The Maf And Will Usually Damage The Transmission Before It Damages The Maf. If It Is Determined To Be Maf Related, Then Open Up The Pocket Book Becuase You Will Have A Very Large Bill You Will Be Responsibile For. We Have Had 3 Trans Complaints The Last 2 Months, 2 With Poor Sloppy Shifts, And 1 With Burned Up Clutch Packs With No Apparant Reason. All Were Related To Oil On The Maf. The Oil Coats And Insolates The Wires. Therefore, Insufficient Line Pressures Are Developed Under Hard Loads, Which Causes Slippage. Slippage Burns Things Up, And Cost You Thousands.
This Is No Joke, So Do Not Mess With This. I Recommend Using Only About Half Of What The Filter Poeple Say. And Periodically Clean The Maf. It Is Easily Done By Using Carb Cleaner. It Is Also Accumulative. One Of The Trans Jobs Had 50k On It We Cleaned The Sensor And Had Serious Changes In The Shifting. Also New Air Boxes Look Really Great But I Really Question Any Major Improvement That Can Justify Some Of The High Costs Of Some Of The Aftermarket Units. Maybe Cruising At 135mph There May Be A Difference. But Normal Driving, I Think It Would Be Very Questionable. I Have Installed Many Volant Air Boxes On Trucks And Utilities. There Is No Doubt It Helps, Especially Gett Cold Air. Volant Says Increases As High As 25 Hp. I Do Not Believe It. But Customers Want It So We Have It. But Is It Worth The Many Hundreds Of Dollars?? To Make It Worse, Many Customers Are Installing Units That Are Using Underhood Air. Now That Is Totally Crazy. Gm Is Going To Make Sure All Dealers Know About It. Please Do Not Be The One They Catch. Use As Little Oil Or No Oil. Do Not Know If This Info Has Returned To The Manufacturer Of The Boxes Yet.
Dms
 

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The MAF does not control the trans. Don't make me get keith over here from HP tuners to get all technical ;) It can affect some trans tables but I'll have to do a few minutes of reasearch to make sure I say it right. There are MAFless cars running all over AUS with no line pressure or shifting problem.
 

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LOL!! Where have you been? I could’ve told you that oil from a K&N style filter was bad for your MAF years ago. Matter of fact, I’ve made numerous posts over many web forums about being on the conservative side when re-oiling your filter or let it sit awhile while it either absorbs it or it rolls off.

However, your MAF does not have anything to do with calculating transmission line pressure. The MAF is solely an air metering device (and in the case of some newer ones in vehicles other than our GTO’s) an air temperature device.

It measures this incoming air in two ways.

1) Air Volume measured in pounds/hour rate
2) Air Speed measured in Hz (frequency)

It works in conjunction primarily with the O2 sensors (both pre and post cat), TPS sensor, MAP sensor to control the air/fuel ratio in order to maintain as close to a 485mV reading (stoichiometric) reading as the PCM switches between short term and long term fuel trims.

It has NO bearing on line pressure. Line pressure is built by the pump in the transmission which is driven off the main input shaft that the torque converter is on and is controlled/Regulated by the BCM (Body Control Module). Putting in a higher stall converter, shift kit and raising shifts will increase line pressure and therefore create more heat which is what will kill a transmission. Not the MAF.

As Jon said, Keith and/or the guys at HP tuners will know even more. He did some stuff on my truck the other night. But from my knowledge of working in a service department, I’ve never seen a MAF cause a trans problem.
 

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I swear that half the time cruising this forum is like being back in college. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like they should be taking notes?

I have a K&N on my truck, but have never cleaned it (only about 8K miles on it), but I do run them on my ATV's, and I clean them all the time. Apples and Oranges though. You do NOT want sand to get through your filter, so I oil them a little on the heavy side. NOW I know not to do that on either my car or truck. Thank You Professor LS1GTO.com. :drink: :thumbs:
 

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I have a notebook where I was gathering all kinds of information from here and the other site. Once I got my car I have totally blown it off. Given a choice of taking notes or driving the car........................
:drink: :drink:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
You Are Wrong!!

DevilYellow said:
The MAF does not control the trans. Don't make me get keith over here from HP tuners to get all technical ;) It can affect some trans tables but I'll have to do a few minutes of reasearch to make sure I say it right. There are MAFless cars running all over AUS with no line pressure or shifting problem.
WE JUST HAD OUR 4TH GMC COME IN WITH A TRANS SHIFT CONCERN. WE CLEANED THE MAF SENSOR, HAD OBVIOUS CONTAMIANTION ON THE WIRES.
TRANS SHIFT WAS REPAIRED. TALKED TO OUR LOCAL IN THE FIELD ENGINEER AND CONFIRMED THE MAF SENSOR IS AN INPUT.
BULLETIN 04-07-30-013 SPCIFICALLY TALKS ABOUT MAF CONTAMINATION AND TRANS.
THE TITLE OF THE BULLETIN "INFO-AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION SHIFT, ENGINE DRIVEABILTIY CONCERNS OR SES LIGHT ON AS A RESULT OF THE INSTALLATION OF AN AFTERMARKET REUSABLE, EXCESSIVELY OILED AIR FILTER."

HERE IS THE LAST PARAGRAPH OF THE BULLETIN:: TRANS OR ENGINE DRIVEABITLITY CONCERNS THAT ARE THE RESULT OF THE INSTALLATION OF AN AFTERMARKET RESUSABLE EXCESSIVELY OILED AIR FILTER ARE NOT CONSIDERED TO BE WARRANTALBE REPAIR ITEMS."

AGAIN, WE HAVE CONFIRMED 4 VEHICLES (ALL GMC'S) THAT HAVE A DIRECT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE MAF AND THE TRANS SHIFT/PROBLEMS. GM SAYS IT IN WRITING. SO I VERY MUCH RECOMMEND TO ALL TO BELIEVE IT AND USE CAUTION AND CARE
DMS
 

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It was because of a MAF sensor that I lost my previous car. I had the Type-R, which I didn't drive much. Also had an 1988 Old's 88 I bought for $500. The Olds konked out on me do to the MAF. I drove the R back and forth to work for less than a month - It was stolen from the secure lot at work. Now I have the Goat - Happy me!!!

This time around, my 88 Olds was replaced by an 03 Vibe GT. I didn't want the same thing to happen and sold the Vibe. Just a GTO now - and loving it.
 

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It's your funeral

DevilYellow said:
The MAF doesnt do it .... the computer does. If the MAF fails then the computer will add approx. 30% to the line pressure. Again, the MAF dos not control the trans ;)
I guess it depends on your definition of "excessive oil". Actually not YOUR definition it's the General's definition that counts. I don't proclaim to be an engineer, but if the General says don't do it, don't do it. If you do, you are on the hook. Right or wrong, it's YOUR pocket book that gets drained. To quote a greate American, "......do you feel lucky?"--Dirty Harry
:thumbs:
 

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I've already ordered my High Flow Induction kit and it should be here Friday. I've also ordered the performance plugs and wires. I was planning to install all of that stuff at once. Now I'm wondering if I should install it at all. Soooooooo many concerns, most of which revolve around voiding my warranty. I've read the service bulletin quoted above and I notice they explicitly state "EXCESSIVELY oiled". As long as my filter is properly oiled, I should be OK.

Is the contamination on the MAF sensor "open and obvious"? In other words, would I be able to see this contamination simply by looking through the MAF? And does a simple cleaning, say with carb cleaner, remove the contamination?
 

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Master of Youngrushhour
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Warren/Tails - this ain't like the old days - I also started a 3 ring binder to copy some of this stuff to - so I could remember what to do.
 

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FLORIT said:
I've already ordered my High Flow Induction kit and it should be here Friday. I've also ordered the performance plugs and wires. I was planning to install all of that stuff at once. Now I'm wondering if I should install it at all. Soooooooo many concerns, most of which revolve around voiding my warranty. I've read the service bulletin quoted above and I notice they explicitly state "EXCESSIVELY oiled". As long as my filter is properly oiled, I should be OK.

Is the contamination on the MAF sensor "open and obvious"? In other words, would I be able to see this contamination simply by looking through the MAF? And does a simple cleaning, say with carb cleaner, remove the contamination?
My opinion, FWIW, is that I want to use the smooth intake, but leave the paper filter box on my car. I'm waiting on the purchase because I'm not quite looking for more power yet (key word being yet).
I read a number of posts on LS1tech and other sites - and came to that conclusion before the GM bulletin was issued. The reasons included people complaining of oil on the MAF - as well as on the throttle body; a couple of dyno's comparing just filter changes with all other intake bits being the same; and a comparison of particle size each of the filter types will let through. The dyno's showed no conclusive evidence of power increase with a reusable filter vs a paper filter (in one case there was actually a 1 or 2 hp gain w/ the paper filter). The particle size comparison shows that much larger particles are able to get through the reusable filter than the paper filter.
Now, that doesn't mean that used correctly the K&N filter won't do a good job and cause no problems. Many of the cases with problems also included people who 'descreened' the MAF. And I'm thinking that many of the issues seen are kids who think 'a little oil is good - a lot is better'.
Dan
 

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The problem is, you’re trying to draw a conclusion for ALL oil style filters when that in fact is incorrect.

I will not dispute that over oiling a K&N style filter will cover the resistors and vanes in the MAF with oil and/or soot. It will also coat the TB & TB blade with oil/soot and may also lead to TPS problems. However, if filter oil is applied conservatively (just enough to change the color which usually is red) and let sit for awhile to soak in or drain off, YOU WILL NOT HAVE PROBLEMS! If you apply an entire can of filter oil to a filter and put it in right away, then YES, you may have problems.

Here is a direct quote from you, from that Bulletin:
HERE IS THE LAST PARAGRAPH OF THE BULLETIN:: TRANS OR ENGINE DRIVEABITLITY CONCERNS THAT ARE THE RESULT OF THE INSTALLATION OF AN AFTERMARKET RESUSABLE EXCESSIVELY OILED AIR FILTER ARE NOT CONSIDERED TO BE WARRANTALBE REPAIR ITEMS."
I see one word there EXCESSIVELY. The TSB says for EXCESSIVELY oiled filters NOT generally acceptably oiled filters and that is what I stated above!!

I use them in all my vehicles and I perform periodic cleanings of both the MAF sensor with electronics cleaner and a wipe down of the TB whether it’s dirty or not.. But then again, I’m conservative in my application of filter oil.

As DY eluded to, the MAF will affect driveability, IT DOES NOT HAVE DIRECT CONTROL OVER THE TRANSMISSION. As I previously stated, it is ONLY an air metering device.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
is gm engineering incorrect on trans relationship?

CMNTMXR57 said:
The problem is, you’re trying to draw a conclusion for ALL oil style filters when that in fact is incorrect.

I will not dispute that over oiling a K&N style filter will cover the resistors and vanes in the MAF with oil and/or soot. It will also coat the TB & TB blade with oil/soot and may also lead to TPS problems. However, if filter oil is applied conservatively (just enough to change the color which usually is red) and let sit for awhile to soak in or drain off, YOU WILL NOT HAVE PROBLEMS! If you apply an entire can of filter oil to a filter and put it in right away, then YES, you may have problems.

Here is a direct quote from you, from that Bulletin:


I see one word there EXCESSIVELY. The TSB says for EXCESSIVELY oiled filters NOT generally acceptably oiled filters and that is what I stated above!!

I use them in all my vehicles and I perform periodic cleanings of both the MAF sensor with electronics cleaner and a wipe down of the TB whether it’s dirty or not.. But then again, I’m conservative in my application of filter oil.

As DY eluded to, the MAF will affect driveability, IT DOES NOT HAVE DIRECT CONTROL OVER THE TRANSMISSION. As I previously stated, it is ONLY an air metering device.
So many of you are saying there is no relationship between the trans load and the maf. I guess GM engineering, the poeple who built and designed the car, are telling poeple there is a relationship and you guys say there is not? I have had 4 vehicles, that I have confirmed a direct relationship between the trans shift and a contaminated maf with no codes. The 4 vehicles were GMC V-8's, but GM engineering says it is all vehicles. Enough said about this from me. I brought it up to to give a big heads up to everyone. I do aggree its is excessive usage of oil. However, the trans we had apart that was burned up had about 50K on it with regular servicing of the filter (K&N) It had contamination of the Maf that could have been a long time accumulation. I am going to incorporate a Maf/throttle body cleanout in some of my services. I suggest all of you do it as well. Also, using low end air filters does contaminate the maf as well. But I will not go there.
dms
 

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I appreciate the heads up. I will certainly be incorporating the "clean the MAF and TB" processes in my future maintenance.
:drink: :drink:
 

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I am a computer engineer. One of my internships was at a company that made monitoring systems for the dryers at seed corn plants. When I got there I wrote the software to monitor airflow in the dryers. The hardware guys had spent about a year designing hardware that could read the airspeed. I spent about 4 months writing software that could get the airspeed from the hardware.

When I was installing my induction kit and had the MAF out I was surprised to see some very familiar hardware. The MAF looks like a design very close to what the company I worked for was using in bins.

I'd have to take another look to make sure there is nothing else in the MAF, but from what I saw there is no way this thing does anything other than measure airflow.

The airflow is actually measured using thermistors. There is quite a bit of research done at several universities about how this works. To simplify it thermistors are basically temperature sensitive resistors. So they put several different kinds of thermistors in the same airflow (made of different metals). You run a bunch of complex equations that take into account the differences in how each thermistor is reacting and you get an airspeed.

Once we got the whole system going the hardware guys found that the airflow had to be baffled and controlled so that there wasn't bad turbulence going on. That actually took them 6 months to create working ones.

Anyway so what I saw in the MAF was a screen to baffle the air and I think 3 thermistors behind that to measure airflow. Definitely no sensors to do anything for the tranny, unless it needs to know airflow in the intake.

But, you never know what they are doing in software with these measurements. They could be making assumptions for the transmission based on completely unrelated things.

Right off hand I would say they could use this to determine engine loading and that would effect shifting points. I could see a dirty MAF affecting auto trannys, but not manuals.

I'd say if you have an auto dms is indirectly correct. No they aren't taking any measurements directly for the tranny, but they could affect it anyway.

This is a really long story, do I even have a point now, I forget.
 

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dms said:
So many of you are saying there is no relationship between the trans load and the maf. I guess GM engineering, the poeple who built and designed the car, are telling poeple there is a relationship and you guys say there is not? I have had 4 vehicles, that I have confirmed a direct relationship between the trans shift and a contaminated maf with no codes. The 4 vehicles were GMC V-8's, but GM engineering says it is all vehicles. Enough said about this from me. I brought it up to to give a big heads up to everyone. I do aggree its is excessive usage of oil. However, the trans we had apart that was burned up had about 50K on it with regular servicing of the filter (K&N) It had contamination of the Maf that could have been a long time accumulation. I am going to incorporate a Maf/throttle body cleanout in some of my services. I suggest all of you do it as well. Also, using low end air filters does contaminate the maf as well. But I will not go there.
dms
Are you listening to what Jon (DY) and myself are saying? We are NOT disputing GM Engineers. Matter of fact, I stick up for them on a regular basis because there is LOGIC in everything they do.

Now, YOU are trying to draw a direct correlation between an EXCESSIVELY oiled MAF and transmission failure.

What we’re telling you is this

FACT: The MAF DOES NOT have any control over the transmission.
FACT: The MAF is solely an air metering device (thanks to Ames for the more detailed explaination of the thermistors).
FACT: An EXCESSIVELY oiled K&N Style filter WILL oil/soot up the MAF and WILL oil/soot up the TB and possibly cause TPS issues. These TPS and any MAF codes would be the first line indicator of a potential problem with an EXCESSIVELY oiled filter and be noticed LONG before any transmission failure.
FACT: An EXCESSIVELY oiled K&N Style filter COULD lead to driveability issues. However they are driveability issues associated with the engine and not how the transmission works.

Now for the kicker.
FACT: If driveability is affected sooooo much due to an EXCESSIVELY oiled K&N Style filter, the PCM will go into “Reduced Power Mode” in order to save the engine and everything else INCLUDING the transmission. In which case, in “Reduced Power Mode” one cannot “FRY” a transmission.

I’m sure your technician covered all these nuances with you?

For what it’s worth, we replaced lots of “Fried” 4L65E’s and 4L85E’s. They are fairly common failure especially in the truck line (due to being WORKED harder) and they all had their stock Fram Paper filter!!! At one time we had 15 of them sitting in our warranty bin awaiting pickup from GM so that we could get re-imbursed! My feeling is that something else MAJOR caused all these transmissions to go south and the EXCESSIVELY oiled filter was the icing on the cake and a scapegoat for GM to point their fingers. GM highly disapproves of people “Modifying” their vehicles and sometimes stuff like this is done as a scare tactic to threaten customers with a potential loss of warranty coverage.

Once again for everyone else, this TSB covers EXCESSIVELY oiled filters. I’ve tried to highlight that wherever possible!
 

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So are you saying people shouldn't put too much oil on their reusable air filters CMNT? ;) (I know - that was bad but I couldn't resist).

Some of the f-body guys were stating that the SLP upgrades included addition of a K&N filter, so that LS1's came off of the dealership lot with the reusable filter?
Dan
 

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You're catching on grasshopper. :D
 
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