[hellhammer]

This is in regards to the same thread that I already started. I wanted to create another one, because I think my harsh words on the first one might have undermined the issue. There is potential for a problem!

Here is the scenario - all six of the bolts for the driver's side inboard rear axle connection fell out at the same time. Found the bolts on the side of the road all within 50 feet of each other.

Inspection - 3 bolt holes damaged on out put hub, CV joint collar banged up, signs of contact with aftermarket exhaust. Four of the bolts show lube oil on the thread area only, does not appear to be random on the bolts, but deliberately on the threads. Other two bolts were completely dry, sample bolt from opposite side was completely dry.

Evaluation - Exhaust pipe was believed to be the culprit, but the contact area does not line up with the CV collar (which did not have signs of contacting the pipe). It also does not line up with the bolts when properly installed, bolt heads do show signs of contact. When attempting to duplicate, the exhaust pipe and/or axle can not be moved in anyway to cause contact with each other.
- there was also concern that the exhaust shop had loosened the bolts to do the work, could not confirm via interviews, inspection of the wrenching area of the bolts, and through evaluation of the installation process required.

My findings - I believe that axle hop caused the bolts to loosen, either because they were not torqued to spec, because they were lubricated and should not have been, or the vibration caused by axle hop is so much that the properly tightened bolts were caused to loosen.
- I last expereinced axle hop about 3 weeks ago. I believe that the bolts continued to work themselves out as a group as the axle spun, and just prior to falling out they contacted the exhaust pipe.

I have looked at this with as open of a mind as possible and my frustrations lie with the narrow minded view of the dealerships. I have worked in the automotive field for 15 years and in the middle of it worked as a Navy aircraft metalsmith and inspector (which encompasses flight controls, landing gear, and countless other moving parts as well as the airframe structure). I have conducted dozens of inspections for conditions on the aircraft, and have innitiated a few myself. For the last 5 years, I have worked in a position were I am involved with performance parts manufacturing as well as providing tech support for those parts. I spend MY whole day answering peoples questions and troubleshooting their problems/failures/installation issues.

Thank You,
Dave

 

[Tails]

Interesting. A4 or M6?
:drink::drink:

 

[Old Goat]

Hmmm!

That means to me it is inspection time and more than a simple torque check is in order, like I did the other day. It may behoove me to pull one at a time and clean and Loctite on re-installation. Better safe than sorry! Thanks Hellhammer! BTW, I have the old Aircraft Structural Mechanic's manuals from the same source...It's how I learned 'fancy' welding, and a lot of structural stuff. I think you have it 100%. Have you axle tramped the car often before the incident? We also safety wired and loctited a lot in 'Special' Weapons... :thumbs:

 

[DANSLS1]

Part of my company's business is application of a Loctite (it's a trademark name actually, like Xerox) and similar adhesives to automotive fasteners. Personally I think many joints (probably including this application) should have better design to ensure locking - ie. serrated flanges, lock washers or the like. That being said - I would recommend using 'loctite' type materials on fasteners that don't have any other self locking mechanisms whenever / whereever possible. Just remember 'if' you are working with automatic drives that measure torque, the materials can interfere with torque readings as the locking material is being seated. This probably won't apply to most of us - but something to keep in mind.
Hellhammer - keep us informed of how things work out. I'm a little concerned - although using any 'oily' lubricant on a fastener sounds like an outdoor mechanic trick - not anything that would be done at a plant. I still have an inkling of suspicion that the bolts were removed during the exhaust install - but you never know.
Just out of curiousity - what kind of witness / wear marks did you see in the threads of the parts that came out? Any 'rounding' of the threads, etc. as they would have vibrated loose?
Dan

 

[GMH GTO]

hope that axle didn't hit anything when it broke loose, I have seen this happen before never from the factory. sucks that happend hellhammer. Are you going to have the dealership install a new axle and hub to fix it?

 

[sxty8goats]

Just a point, not really defending anything else but..

It is not posible to properly torque a bolt with out lubricating it. The drag of metal on metal will give a false torque reading. I've been building machinery for years. Most of the time we use a neverseize type lube.

It is posible to vibrate a bolt loose but it is more likely that the exhaust work was the cause. I couldn't really make a educated guess without looking at the car and bolts that came out.

Hope all is well but I am not going to be worring about my car until I see this on many cars w/ out work done.

 

[GMH GTO]

True PJ, when somebody is being meticulas they will put a drop of oil on the threads to try and be 110% which is difficult, how long since torque wrench was new or recalibrated, is it a click type torque wrench that arn't accurate to begin with and tend to overtighten.

I made big investment in torque wrenchs, lately 2 snap on "techwrenchs" that are electric click type but it shows the torque at the point you stopped turning.

In either case anytime i've seen an axle come loose the bolts were only finger tightend and the other time they guy tightend them with a 8" 3/8 hand rachet.

I tighten thoes axle types with 3/8 impact, never had a problem.

 

[DANSLS1]

Just a point, not really defending anything else but..

It is not posible to properly torque a bolt with out lubricating it. The drag of metal on metal will give a false torque reading. I've been building machinery for years. Most of the time we use a neverseize type lube.

It is posible to vibrate a bolt loose but it is more likely that the exhaust work was the cause. I couldn't really make a educated guess without looking at the car and bolts that came out.

Hope all is well but I am not going to be worring about my car until I see this on many cars w/ out work done.

That's not exactly true. An uncoated fastener and an uncoated hole will give false torque readings. My guess is the bolts holding the axle on are at a minimum phosphated if not coated in some other manner, which will modify the torque to a point but allow true torque readings. Working in the automotive fastener coating industry - the only uncoated fasteners used on American cars that I know of are internal engine parts where the coatings are then going to break up and interfere with lubrication.
Also, every 'antisieze' I've ever seen is a colorless material that is dry to touch when applied correctly, you would not be able to see it on fasteners.
That being said, we are of the same opinion otherwise
Dan

 

[sxty8goats]

Also, every 'antisieze' I've ever seen is a colorless material that is dry to touch when applied correctly, you would not be able to see it on fasteners.
That being said, we are of the same opinion otherwise
Dan

Every antisieze I have used (ok I know I'm a horrable speller) has been copper or nickle based and colored. These are designed for high heat applications. The extrusion heads I build run 350*F and up. Because we use that in house, we use it on almost everything that needs an anti-seize. We also use PetroGel which is nothing but food grade patrolium jelly.

So my point is, what are some of the other anti-siezes out there? They may be useful to me.

 

[DANSLS1]

The industrial material I've seen that goes by antisieze is a clear teflon-based material that is applied on fasteners by a dipping and spinning method. It's almost like dipping parts in WD40.
Dan

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

This same thing happened to me about three months ago. I posted up about it and gave some pics. Had to take the pics off to use the space for other pics. Had to replace half shaft and attaching coupler because it actually broke the coupler when I was just shifting from 1st to 2nd. Everything was put back together with some high grade locktite. No problems since. I still have the pics and can email if needed. Let me know

 

[sxty8goats]

BillyGoatGruff,

Did this happen with no work done to the car? I remember a post like this in the past. I was barley paying attention.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

The axel fell out a few days before I put the new gears in the car. The dealership put everything back together correctly. Shortly after I changed the gears and had everything locktited and double checked.

 

[GMH GTO]

So my point is, what are some of the other anti-siezes out there? They may be useful to me.

Their is copper anti seize and silver anti seize. The copper is more lubricant based and is high temp. The silver anti seize hasn't seamed like a lubricant to me it, it just does its job, I just use which one I find first for spark plugs, 02 sensors drum brake backing plates etc.

 

[sxty8goats]

Nickel, Silver would be way too expensive.

Dan was telling me that most of the antiseize he uses was clear. I use the Copper and nickel all the time. I had not seen clear. I guess it is teflon based. As for torque'n blots, the nickel is plenty lubricating. Then there is the ever popular Molybdenum Dysulfide which is a great high heat/ high preasure lube/ antisieze. Don't eat that stuff. kill you good. I wouldn't use the nickel on anything that could find it's way into an engine. (spark plugs) The copper is soft enough to not dammage rings and pistons. Nickel would have me worried.

 

[DANSLS1]

Molybdenum Dysulfide is something that we have to have our customers avoid like the plague. When it gets heat treated onto a part, it is near impossible to remove from the surface and means you can't plate the parts. It apparently is a great lube for cold-heading threads though.
The more important question is - why haven't I seen any pic's of billygoatgruff's '68 and '04 together? Have I missed them?
Dan

 

[sxty8goats]

I only use moly lube when I rebuild hydraulic cylinders. It is great stuff when used in the right application. I may open the can once a year or so...

There are pic's of A yellow 04 and a blue 69 judge here>
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/[email protected]

 

[Old Goat]

Folks! A quick caution. DO NOT use anti-seize on spark plugs, or at least make sure the specific type you use is conductive. A misfire condition can result. A thin stripe or a drop or two of engine oil is good here or other conductive but non-water based lubricant. Use just enough to get the job done, less is more.

 

[sxty8goats]

Good point OG. I'm surprised I missed it myself..

 

[DANSLS1]

You know - I've changed a decent amount of spark plugs and never even considered using any type of lube.
Dan