LS1GTO Forums banner

1 - 20 of 48 Posts

·
Objects in mirror dont matter
Joined
·
3,777 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Okay. I am ready to move to a new phase of LSx modding...self tuning and trading, hinting and learning tunes with the others who are sick of the BS that comes with paying for big buck/big hassle tuners.
LSedit has been around a long time, and seems to have lots of people playing with it.
HPT? What makes it better than LSedit?
My understanding is Predator and Diablo are sorta "tuner-lite". Is this wrong perception?
EFI Live?
Throw your thoughts at me with the benefits of your preferred software. What sucks? What costs more for add ons?
Any particular wideband better than the next?
Of course I am going to start my own research, but I want my GTO brothers who have left the days of staring in awe at the laptop driver while the highly paid fellow tweaks cells and acts just like the guys at the old time carb shops did, until you figured out how to teardown your own carbs and demystified the things and thought: Wow, I worshipped these clowns?
 

·
Est. Apr 2004
Joined
·
5,861 Posts

·
Objects in mirror dont matter
Joined
·
3,777 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I have an LS1, so the latest support for LS2 a benefit I really don't need. Would be nice if we wanted to play with the buddys cars, but not a purchase+ if lots more $$.
Thanks for the link to the old thread. I had seen that months ago and totally forgot the search button....d'oh.
I see EFIlive has its fans too. Hmm. Time to hit the websites for these software packages.
 

·
Supporting Vendor
Joined
·
636 Posts
http://mysite.verizon.net/whenn1/HPTUNERSvsEFILIVE.pdf

Basically in the LS1 world there are only two true COMPLETE tuning software packages HPTuners & EFILive...LS1edit really isnt even worth mentioning.

With hptuners with your initial purchase you could start tuning your 04LS1 gto with RTT(real time tuning) for as little as $499 or the MPVI pro with 1 1/2hours of standalone data logging for just $649 and you'd still have enough credits to tune 3 OR MORE vehicles depending on how you license your GTO ;) You'll also see we have a user base of over 4500 members ready to answer your questions. 3 of our top 4 posters are the Owners Keith, Chris & Ken meaning when you do get an answer its usually direct from the horses mouth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
389 Posts
As has already been stated... EFILive or HP Tuners. I had personal experience with all 3 companies (EFI, HP, and Carputing)

EFI... I've only used their scantool but it out does anyone else on the market. Back when V6 was the latest version there were some issues with commanding TCC lockup. Paul was turning around new builds in less than 24 hours to correct the issues.

HP Tuners... I've been using HP Tuners since the beginning. You can't go wrong with HP Tuners. With the exception of the wideband sensor you can get everything you need to "properly" tune your vehicle. HP Tuners is always updating and enhancing their product. Their licensing is also the most flexible.

LS2Edit... I used LS1Edit for quite a long time (huge $ investment in it) back when it was the only product available. For the time frame it was good. 4 years later nothing has changed in terms of enhancements, user interface, data logging. It is a very poor product by today's standards. The support structure for LSXEdit is poor as well. You can't record analog inputs (ie. WB), you can't use it as a scan tool, and you can only unlock a car (LS2s) by reverting back to stock... not even a Tech2 can undo LS2Edits BS.

So with all of that said... in the LS1 world I would say it is a tossup between EFI Live and HP Tuners. Both have good support structures and both are continually being enhanced. I do expect EFI Live's V2 hardware to be pretty slick though once it is released.

Tim
 

·
Supercharged and a Warranty
Joined
·
434 Posts
Swampgoat said:
Okay. I am ready to move to a new phase of LSx modding...self tuning and trading, hinting and learning tunes with the others who are sick of the BS that comes with paying for big buck/big hassle tuners.

Of course I am going to start my own research, but I want my GTO brothers who have left the days of staring in awe at the laptop driver while the highly paid fellow tweaks cells and acts just like the guys at the old time carb shops did, until you figured out how to teardown your own carbs and demystified the things and thought: Wow, I worshipped these clowns?
WTF?
Big Buck, Big hassle tuners? Big bucks, the money that you spent is not big bucks, there are plenty of tuners that get far more money than what you paid. Which is not to say, you do not deserve the best tune possible for what you did pay. A good friend of mine that races a Fuel Injected Stock Eliminator car paid well over $1800 for two good tunes on his stocker. BTW, what big hassles were involved? And why is it whenever someone doesn't get the horsepower they believe they should have gotten it's always the tuners fault? Why doesn't anyone take a look back at their combination? I have seen it so often happen in drag racing circles, "Someone else built my motor and it doesn't run like it should."

Has the cam been degreed in? Do you know where it is? Lots of times, parts get made incorrectly, the cam could be ground a couple of degrees retarded but if it doesn't get degreed in, you wouldn't know. The first time I degreed a roller cam into one of my race cars, I installed the cam key incorrectly. I took it to the track and the car could barely run 10.90's, I knew what I had done. After re-installing the camshaft 2 degrees advanced instead of 2 degrees retarded, I returned to the track in the same conditions and went 10-teens. Yes, it can make that big a difference. What is the actual cylinder pressure? In otherwords, how much compression stroke do you have with the intake valve closed, not misleading static compression ratios? How much overlap is there on the cam shaft? Is the cam not well matched to the cylinder heads? And speaking of cylinder heads....just because their guaranteed to flow a certain number doesn't mean that the shape of the port is optimal for the velocity you need to fill that cylinder. What was done to the short side radius? Does anyone even know what the short side radius is and it's effect on port velocity and cylinder fill?

It's got to be the tuner, it couldn't be a problem with the combination, could it? Do you really think the tuner was negligent to the point of leaving upwards of 50HP on the table?

In any event, I do applaud your effort to become more self-sufficient in modifying your vehicle. BTW from conversations with a tuner that, albeit you do not trust, HP tuners seems to be the most user friendly and comprehensive software. I wish you luck in your quest, but I feel you have unanswered questions that you need to address first.
 

·
Growing up is an option
Joined
·
17,296 Posts
i think besides the money factor and hassle of scheduling and taking you car to a tuner the DIY has other values both tangable and intangable. you can keep your car tuned to conditions both car-wise after mods and track weather conditions. you can log your runs. you can log your IATs and see that the big bucks intake isn't performing like it did on the dyno. you can street tune your car which has benefits hard to equal on a dyno but most importantly you get the satisfaction of doing it yourself. lots of poeple here take their car to a shop somewhere and get everything bolted on and tuned by someone else. good for them. i'd rather be the guy painting the mona lisa than buying it. my sig doesn't say jeremy. it says i did it.
 

·
Supercharged and a Warranty
Joined
·
434 Posts
Well, what my sig doesn't say is that I did all the modifications to my car. I wisely chose components that work well together. In otherwords, I did the things that I am well experienced with and paid the big bucks for the tune because I don't care what HP my car makes or what my IAT's are or any of that. What I care about is how well it runs, and for what has been done to it, it truly does run well. When I paid the big bucks for my tune I was able to tell the tuner exactly what I had done to my car, in otherwords, where the cam is installed at, etc. etc. and he was able to tune my car to take advantage of that. It seems that weather doesn't have as great an effect on my car as the other cars I see at the track. Quite frankly I don't care how my car runs on the street because I don't run it there.
 

·
Growing up is an option
Joined
·
17,296 Posts
it's hard to get experienced without doing it isn't it?
BTW, if you cared about how your car ran at the track you'd care about your IATs
 

·
Want Halo....
Joined
·
1,829 Posts
Manufacturer products in the end usually become personal choice.

I looked at EFILive and HPT. I run EFIlive cause I preferred it.

There are multiple Wideband solutions. I selected Innovate because IMO they had the best offering.

EFILive is not the most popular and Innovate is not the least expensive but then again to me it’s not a popularity contest and cost is not the number 1 decision maker.

If your serious about tuning do yourself some justice: do your homework and get some kind of training. Know your limitations "Forget about laptop envy" don't jones it, just do it right even if someone does the work for you.

Jim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,479 Posts
svede1212 said:
i think besides the money factor and hassle of scheduling and taking you car to a tuner the DIY has other values both tangable and intangable. you can keep your car tuned to conditions both car-wise after mods and track weather conditions. you can log your runs. you can log your IATs and see that the big bucks intake isn't performing like it did on the dyno. you can street tune your car which has benefits hard to equal on a dyno but most importantly you get the satisfaction of doing it yourself. lots of poeple here take their car to a shop somewhere and get everything bolted on and tuned by someone else. good for them. i'd rather be the guy painting the mona lisa than buying it. my sig doesn't say jeremy. it says i did it.
+1 I've been thinking of trying my own tuning also. Nothing against the guys that do it for a living, but I'm always modding and it would be nice to be able to tune it myself. James at RWTD did an excellent job on my tune but now I need another one since I added nitrous. Sometimes it's better to be able to do it yourself.
 

·
Objects in mirror dont matter
Joined
·
3,777 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
GTO1369 said:
WTF?
Big Buck, Big hassle tuners? Big bucks, the money that you spent is not big bucks, there are plenty of tuners that get far more money than what you paid. Which is not to say, you do not deserve the best tune possible for what you did pay. A good friend of mine that races a Fuel Injected Stock Eliminator car paid well over $1800 for two good tunes on his stocker. BTW, what big hassles were involved? And why is it whenever someone doesn't get the horsepower they believe they should have gotten it's always the tuners fault? Why doesn't anyone take a look back at their combination? I have seen it so often happen in drag racing circles, "Someone else built my motor and it doesn't run like it should."

Has the cam been degreed in? Do you know where it is? Lots of times, parts get made incorrectly, the cam could be ground a couple of degrees retarded but if it doesn't get degreed in, you wouldn't know. The first time I degreed a roller cam into one of my race cars, I installed the cam key incorrectly. I took it to the track and the car could barely run 10.90's, I knew what I had done. After re-installing the camshaft 2 degrees advanced instead of 2 degrees retarded, I returned to the track in the same conditions and went 10-teens. Yes, it can make that big a difference. What is the actual cylinder pressure? In otherwords, how much compression stroke do you have with the intake valve closed, not misleading static compression ratios? How much overlap is there on the cam shaft? Is the cam not well matched to the cylinder heads? And speaking of cylinder heads....just because their guaranteed to flow a certain number doesn't mean that the shape of the port is optimal for the velocity you need to fill that cylinder. What was done to the short side radius? Does anyone even know what the short side radius is and it's effect on port velocity and cylinder fill?

It's got to be the tuner, it couldn't be a problem with the combination, could it? Do you really think the tuner was negligent to the point of leaving upwards of 50HP on the table?

In any event, I do applaud your effort to become more self-sufficient in modifying your vehicle. BTW from conversations with a tuner that, albeit you do not trust, HP tuners seems to be the most user friendly and comprehensive software. I wish you luck in your quest, but I feel you have unanswered questions that you need to address first.
Well, ya shot a lot out there Tom....
I am having a bit of part throttle trouble, not WOT concern. In the other thread here http://ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103227 last week I asked what effect tuning in a new MAF setup AFTER the wideband/dyno WOT pulls would be. You saw the thread, and the answers recieved. Possible effects would be seen in the <3000rpm area, where I am getting some stalling and roughness.
That answer raised more questions than it answered, but I asked you and the tuner both via PM what you thought of that thread. Heard nothing from either until tonight. Funny, my family had dinner with your family Saturday night, and I get a blast like this tonite here, not offline.
My ? for the tuner was, and remains, is this thread correct about the MAF and the part throttle stuff. Never once have I said on here that the tuner cost me top end. Top end runs great. I know where my missing hp was, and am catching it up, one part at a time, in a well thought out manner.

My lower than expected top end DYNO #s are mostly peripheral intake and exhaust improvements needing attention, and receiving that attention as $$ allow. Remember when we discussed TB porting techniques on the phone last week? My new 3" cutouts? A new MAf tube for the Aussie mod airfilter setup?
Hell, I have not named any tuners, nor blamed anybody except me for the peripheral mod needs holding the WOT dyno #s down.
The head builder has been very supportive, as I had been confident in his prior work on cars here, and been assured it was a tight combo with him having the cam card before the work was begun. He has been on the phone, giving suggestions and offering to strip the heads, re-mill, and do as much as possible to make his part right. The more we dig into other cars with similar setups, the heads look less like the cork in the bottle.
Straightening the peripherals out comes first. Bob at PM( cust service pro) has publicly stated on the board that he is ready to hit those heads with whatever it takes if the heads are part of the problem.
Various stuff is being done to idealize the setup on my car. If that includes changing to different heads, or pulling the cam, it will happen in the order it should, after all possible peripherals are attended to first, retuned, then the next step taken. I think you would agree that tearing the engine apart for 2 days would be out of order until the above stuff is done. When I can afford a better oil pump, an adjustable timing gear set and have the basics sorted, I will know without a doubt where every little movement is happening. No point in opening her up yet if an adjustment ain't possible anyway...

On the Big Buck, big hassles....I was triple booked and appointment forgotten on my first tune, then was pushed between 2 others guys. On the second, it was impossible to get an am tune, which is a biggie for me as a sole custody dad. I was feeling very last second, with a shop guy wanting to go home and a tuner who was admittedly exhausted and tuning after 8pm. Maybe thats why the MAF got tuned late. Maybe it has nothing to do with anything, except that my kids got TV dinners just so I could catch a busy man between trips between cities who had been up until 4 am admittedly the night before.
This thread was not started to deal with any of the stuff you slung out. It was not, nor is it an attack on any tuner. Ragging the head builder/friend who helped me do the swap, not for pay, who happens to be a sponsor and in direct competetion with your services is insulting.
This thread was started to eliminate the need for my broke azz to have to bend my totally insane schedules around tuners. That is a plus for ME, not a rag on popular tuners. I want to know what my car is doing with every little mod, change, tweak and fix. I cannot do that without learning to tune, and with the support of friends and those who have gone before me, and are willing to pass on the knowledge, I will not have to deal with the limitations of MY scheduling needs colliding with the biz needs of a tuner, or have to PAY to see if the TB porting lowered the MAP a bit or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,719 Posts
We use HP tuners. I can honestly say that the software is excellent, and while it takes some more knowledge, I have set up mine to log our Wideband data LM-1 (took some math) and also I set up a boost sensing harness for portable boost sensing on any car I like (we bought the MPVI pro). For those reasons, and the scantool, it's excellent.

The only drawbacks to it are the initial parts - for example, there is no manual. They told me to use the FAQ's on the website... They are really proud of the forum they have and FAQ section (and rightfully so), but that doesn't substitute for a good manual. There is decent help in the program, but still no manual... I doubt you will ever see one, just get referred back to the FAQ's. That's been my biggest gripe, which is really not bad once you get used to it.

Bob
 

·
Objects in mirror dont matter
Joined
·
3,777 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
highperf said:
Manufacturer products in the end usually become personal choice.

I looked at EFILive and HPT. I run EFIlive cause I preferred it.

There are multiple Wideband solutions. I selected Innovate because IMO they had the best offering.

EFILive is not the most popular and Innovate is not the least expensive but then again to me it’s not a popularity contest and cost is not the number 1 decision maker.

If your serious about tuning do yourself some justice: do your homework and get some kind of training. Know your limitations "Forget about laptop envy" don't jones it, just do it right even if someone does the work for you.

Jim
Thanks for the on topic response. I like what I see with EFIlive. HPT seems to have a deep support and quite a few DIY tuners willing to help each other out. Innovate wideband hint noted, and I will look into that product.

I agree on the training/working with more experienced person to help through stuff. I am lucky that Bob at PM is a friend who tunes, and have gotten great info from GTODoug and look forward to meeting him when I am in Miami in a month or so for a week.
Conveinience is why I want to do this, and so I can see what incremental changes on hard parts do. I very well understand the various sensors purpose, way they work, and what they measure and how. I worked on jet turbines and complex electrical/electronic control systems in the Navy as a GSE2. Time to mix up the different things i do know about, and combine it to make my car run nicely and see what is actually happening in there with the electronic "window" to the engine. Gonna be tough, brave new world, but hell, I am a little smarter than the average joe and want to learn it because it is challenging.
 

·
Supercharged and a Warranty
Joined
·
434 Posts
First off, the opening paragraph of this thread is nothing more than your subtle attempt at slamming your tuner. And btw everyone who knows you, knows who tuned your car whether you want to use his name or not. Second, I could care less who installed your mods. The offer that I made to you was the services of me and my shop for free and you knew that. Third, I did not rag on your head/installer/friend that happens to be a sponsor (btw, your tuner is a sponsor also). I asked questions that any accomplished engine builder would ask. As for my qualifications as an engine builder I believe my years of bulding drag, circle track, and marine race engines for real race vehicles allows me to speak as I do. As far as being in direct competition with your friend that is absurd. My work is far more local and we are two counties apart, besides, I have done far more paint and body work for GTO people, which I do not believe your friend does. I have nothing but respect for the quality of work and product that your head guy produces. Lastly and most important, bitch about tuners all you want, ask all the questions you want, ignore all the advice that you've been given or not, you can play with the basics all you want and if something in the motor is not correct you will not get the results you are looking for until you open it up.
 

·
Objects in mirror dont matter
Joined
·
3,777 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Um, okay Tom, back away from the keyboard for a minute and read my response to your first post.
This is not about my tuner. It is about learning to do my own tuning.
Show a little class here. You have lots of experience building engines.
Why is that relavent in this thread?
I am not hunting for solutions to a minor problem pretty much figured out.
I am asking folks who tune thier own cars what the use and why they like what they use. Got hints about widebands? Love to hear it. Have any knowledge on the subject topic? Share it.
Otherwise, sleep well tonight.
 

·
Objects in mirror dont matter
Joined
·
3,777 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Nmbr1GMfan said:
I would like my own tuning software too.
I wonder if splitting is allowable under HPT licensing...hmm, Todd, you have a PM coming.
 

·
Captain Thread Killer returns
Joined
·
21,898 Posts
damn tracy was busy typing tonight....... ;)
 
1 - 20 of 48 Posts
Top