LS1GTO Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Knight Errant
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This came from 'Super Chevy', their Bionic Transmission article.

http://www.superchevy-web.com/tech/0311sc_4l65e/

(Snip)
"An automotive application of the L65 was tuned recently in the high-performance HSV vehicles of GM's Australian Holden unit. These are rear-drive, LS1-powered cars, including the Holden Monaro coupe (reskinned as the new GTO), are considerably lighter than hulking Escaldades. Consequently, the car version of the L65 has a torque rating closer to 400 ft-lb, according to Steve Ford, GM's assistant chief engineer for the 4L60 and 4L80 transmissions."
(Snip)

??? Makes me wonder.... I had something else up on the computer from the GM Powertrain Site the other day that I cannot seem to find now (of freaking course) which seemed to hint the 4L65-E, or interchangably termed as 4L60-E HD, was used in the GTO. Guess I'm going to get dirty and go look for specifics, no matter what the Data Plate says (mine says M30). If it was a 4L65-E, it SHOULD be listed as an M32 on the Data Plate, right?

Nothing ventured, nothing gained I guess, what's the worst that can happen? I get dirty (like I mind...;>) and find out it is a run of the mill 4L60-E.

First I think I'll check and see if there are any telltale numbers or cues to look for from my Parts denizens at Clay Chevrolet and Joseph's Pontiac.

See also: http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?p=27736#post27736
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,214 Posts
I'd be curious to see if GM was thinking ahead and put a better tranny to handle the power in the autos. That would be a plus and maybe one less thing to worry about when you tap the full potential of the LS1.
 

·
Bonzai Baby
Joined
·
211 Posts
I was wondering, how is the A4 supposed to be in terms of performance? For example, my GTO will not down-shift to first at 25-30MPH. It also won't down-shift to 3rd at 65-70 MPH. Is this normal?? Remember, It's my first auto, so I don't know. I would expect the car to down-shift at any "normal" speed.
 

·
Comp Eliminator Goat Driver
Joined
·
2,345 Posts
Old Goat said:
This came from 'Super Chevy', their Bionic Transmission article.

http://www.superchevy-web.com/tech/0311sc_4l65e/

(Snip)
"An automotive application of the L65 was tuned recently in the high-performance HSV vehicles of GM's Australian Holden unit. These are rear-drive, LS1-powered cars, including the Holden Monaro coupe (reskinned as the new GTO), are considerably lighter than hulking Escaldades. Consequently, the car version of the L65 has a torque rating closer to 400 ft-lb, according to Steve Ford, GM's assistant chief engineer for the 4L60 and 4L80 transmissions."
(Snip)

??? Makes me wonder.... I had something else up on the computer from the GM Powertrain Site the other day that I cannot seem to find now (of freaking course) which seemed to hint the 4L65-E, or interchangably termed as 4L60-E HD, was used in the GTO. Guess I'm going to get dirty and go look for specifics, no matter what the Data Plate says (mine says M30). If it was a 4L65-E, it SHOULD be listed as an M32 on the Data Plate, right?

Nothing ventured, nothing gained I guess, what's the worst that can happen? I get dirty (like I mind...;>) and find out it is a run of the mill 4L60-E.

First I think I'll check and see if there are any telltale numbers or cues to look for from my Parts denizens at Clay Chevrolet and Joseph's Pontiac.
Great post. It does make one curious. Let us know what you come up with, I am very interested.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
160 Posts
Gto A4

I have a GTO broshure picked up at the dealer in September 2003. It's mostly black outside and inside.

On the 2nd page it says, "Performance-tuned Hydra-Matic 4L60-E automatic"

The rest of the page describes the engine, the 6 speed, rear axle and exhaust.

slick50
 

·
Knight Errant
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
A4 Transmission in the 2004 Goats update

I just got off the phone with my buddy from Clay Chevrolet Parts. (I love Performance Parts Dealers, they are all as curious about this stuff as we are, and unrelenting until they KNOW, if you can pique their interest...;>) Every guy in that dealership crawled all over this car...;>) They have been freaking out trying to run my GTO's VIN number to get specific info and getting nowhere in the parts computer system because GM has not yet entered the stuff in the parts system. It's only beginning to show up now in dribs and drabs. They can't even get the part number for the wheel lug locks yet.

They made a phone call and did manage to get an RPO Build Sheet faxed in. Mike just spent an hour tuning me up on the RPO numbers for the car and how they interact. You'll love this. When Pontiac first came out with the GTO option for the Tempest LeMans you had to order it by the Main RPO (Regular Production Option) number. That main RPO number was "W62-Equipment, GTO Performance Pkg.", and got you the whole shebang The new GTO's main RPO number according to Mike and the Build Sheet is "W62-Equipment, GTO Performance Pkg." also...:>) The Dealer's Repair and Parts folks usually work out of a little book that lists the RPO's for every make and model in the GM Line, but they do not have one yet for the 2004 year, so back to the fax. Mike explains that the Main RPO Option number then affects the sub RPO codes, explaining why the same option (lets take the FE2 sport suspension for instance) can be on two different GM make and model vehicles, and represent a different set of parts on one model compared to the other model with the same sub RPO code FE2.

The build plate we all know under the hood on the driver's side up front lists SOME of the sub RPO codes. You should see the build sheet, it lists 44 RPO's for my car. On the build plate manual cars show the M12 Tremec Code, the automatic all show M30. BUT, that is a sub RPO number, not a specific designator, and could very well reflect the presence of either the GM Powertrain designators M30 (4L60-E) or M32 (4L65-E) or so called 4L60-E HD the Corvette gets. The three share the same case, but differ in beefier internals. It is doubtful there are any external indicators, unless the trannys are ink marked like the old TH-350's and 400's were. Remember the different black letter codes inked onto the bellhousing that told you the make and model the old trannys were built for?

Anyway, they spent every spare minute on it today, and will continue to do so until they have a firm answer. They are going to compare the key PRODUCTION part numbers from both a Corvette 4L60-E HD and a 4L65-E with the PRODUCTION parts GM says are in the GTO PRODUCTION build sheet sub RPO MX0, M30 which they had to crawl over glass to get GM to send them. This is a LOT of work for them because to make matters worse, production part numbers are not the same as service part numbers, which are not the same as performance part numbers.

If those key production parts sets match, we will have either 4L65-E's or 4L60-E HD's. What we don't have is straight 4L60-E's which everyone they spoke to at GM Engineering generally agreed on. The presence of the 300mm torque converter argues against a regular 4L60-E.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
392 Posts
:drink: OLD GOAT. Nice article. Your Mechanic friends really love their job.
Where did you locate the build sheet for your GTO??? Was it under a front seat as in the Camaro's???

Thanks, Cosmo
 

·
Yes, it has a car seat
Joined
·
1,884 Posts
There is a 'build sheet' sticker on the bottom of the spare tire cover.

My question is - if anybody 30 years down the road really wants to restore a GTO to original condition, do you think they'll be looking for engine compartment pictures in order to match all of the hundreds of colored dots on all of the various parts?
Dan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
392 Posts
:wall: Ruschumacherfan1, Thanks, I found the RPO codes on the spare tire lid. There was another sticker of a date. My stated sep25 2003. Now is this a start date or end date of the production... Also, The other paper work I refer to is a Sheet of paper thats stuffed under the Camaro's (fr)seats has the Job schedule spring rates rear axle #'s.... It has no name. The workers seem to use this sheet as the car travels down the line... Any one with an Idea??? If so does the GTO's have one and the location??? Maybe E-mail the Down under kids??? Thanks Cosmo
 

·
Knight Errant
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
4l60-e Hd

The word is in. We have 4L60-E transmissions reinforced with 4L65-E components. I went in for the freebie 500 mile oil and filter job, and chased all the chassis bolts and lug nuts. An hour's worth of looking and chatting revealed little other than the beauty everything is put together with underneath as well as on top. A few folks and I did find references to the 'HD' aspect of the GTO installed 4L60-E while surfing the Web at two separate sites in articles, but I've no confirming answer back from Pontiac yet. I now expect it to simply confirm what we found anyway. See the September 03 article concerning the car at GM High Tech Performance dot com, and High Performance Pontiac dot com for the same month. Both refer to the upgraded transmission, and 4L65-E parts used to do the job. It may not be a full 4L65-E, but it is a beefed 4L60-E for sure...:>)

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2167
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2175
 

·
Comp Eliminator Goat Driver
Joined
·
2,345 Posts
You were like a dog with a bone with this. In the end the information gained was great in my opinion since I too have an A4. Thanks the time spent and for sharing this with us.
 

·
Master of Youngrushhour
Joined
·
4,318 Posts
Great job Old Goat. This info is going to be important for all of us that want to mod our GTO's especially if we are going to ask Pontiac to upgrade the heads & cam to Z06 spec once Pontiac gives the okay for the Autocross upgrades.
 

·
Knight Errant
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Your Welcome!

ColoradoGoat said:
You were like a dog with a bone with this. In the end the information gained was great in my opinion since I too have an A4. Thanks the time spent and for sharing this with us.
I'm sure I'll be digging into other things as well, after I swap the tired 305 out of my S-10 and drop in the fresh 350....if the weather is ever going to cooperate here in Taxachusetts. By the way, be careful of breaking the couplings and such on the driveshaft, or the center support. The shaft costs $1100.00 according to what the boys dug out of the GM Parts system today!
 

·
Snagging your fish!!!
Joined
·
157 Posts
Thanks for the info, Old Goat. That was some good tech and info reading. But, wouldn't it be cheaper for GM to just put the 4L65-E trans in, rather than build the 4L60-E with "beefier" parts from the 4L65-E?
 

·
Knight Errant
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
4L60-E HD Info.

UBDSLO1 said:
Thanks for the info, Old Goat. That was some good tech and info reading. But, wouldn't it be cheaper for GM to just put the 4L65-E trans in, rather than build the 4L60-E with "beefier" parts from the 4L65-E?
I can only think the reason they don't has to be the money. It may be as ludicrously little as a few dollars a car, but over 18,000 units annually....in the business world, it's all about the $$$... ;)
 

·
GTOholic
Joined
·
1,504 Posts
Old Goat said:
...in the business world, it's all about the $$$...
Amen, brother. I have seen our Engineers go to great lengths to cut PENNIES off the cost of a single product, but when considering the volume, the pennies add up to dollars.

This is not always a good thing. In their efforts to save those pennies, careless purchasing agents buy parts that are NOT "form, fit, and function" suitable substitutes. I have spent many long, frustrating hours troubleshooting circuit boards that "used to work" only to find out "they" saved three cents buying another vendor's part, a part with only MINOR technical spec differences. And guess what? Those MINOR differences made MAJOR headaches.
 

·
Knight Errant
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Double Amen

FLORIT said:
Amen, brother. I have seen our Engineers go to great lengths to cut PENNIES off the cost of a single product, but when considering the volume, the pennies add up to dollars.

This is not always a good thing. In their efforts to save those pennies, careless purchasing agents buy parts that are NOT "form, fit, and function" suitable substitutes. I have spent many long, frustrating hours troubleshooting circuit boards that "used to work" only to find out "they" saved three cents buying another vendor's part, a part with only MINOR technical spec differences. And guess what? Those MINOR differences made MAJOR headaches.
Yup! Sometimes I think a TV is engineered so that a $500 picture tube will blow to protect a .10 cent fuse...;>) But then, if we lived in 'Perfect', we'd all be out of work. ;)
 

·
GTOholic
Joined
·
1,504 Posts
Old Goat said:
Yup! Sometimes I think a TV is engineered so that a $500 picture tube will blow to protect a .10 cent fuse...
ROFL... yeah, I'd believe that. Nowadays, consumer electronics are disposable. If your TV breaks, you're better off to buy a new one than try to have your old one fixed.

Have you heard the story of the test guy who was asked to check the values in a box of fuses? He reported back, "They were all two amp fuses and they all blew right at two amps!" :D
 

·
Knight Errant
Joined
·
1,800 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Fuses

FLORIT said:
ROFL... yeah, I'd believe that. Nowadays, consumer electronics are disposable. If your TV breaks, you're better off to buy a new one than try to have your old one fixed.

Have you heard the story of the test guy who was asked to check the values in a box of fuses? He reported back, "They were all two amp fuses and they all blew right at two amps!" :D
ROTFL PMP.... :D Sounds about right!
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top