LS1 Edit
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well I've talked with Ken. THe holden's have a truck PCM with their own tables. The new GTO will have a new PCM but he doesnt expect it to talk long at all 
Oh I get it....what you were trying to say is that the GTO is a moose punching good time. I mean come on! It's so hard for people to realize sometimes how much mayonnaise it takes to fill a marble hamster flipper all the way to the stump. I'm talk'n ratchets, rakes, and any other type of delicious rock.
This is a whole new concept for me. I looked at http://carputing.tripod.com/LS1main.htm to get some understanding. It looks like you can tweek the tranny (I am getting the A4) if you don't like the factory setting. You can also tweek engine paramteters to maybe coax a little more HP. Is my understanding correct? While reading the instructions I did run across "4.1.9.6 Total Retard" I figured that was for me. I assume you gentlemen will provide the expertise and guidance after I totally screw up my new GTO. I will remember the three rules. 1. Backup 2. Backup 3. Backup.
Torque management is the first thing that needs to go bye-bye. If it sees above a set amount of torque being produced, it will cut power by up to 50% between shifts to supposedly save the tranny. On the LS1 F-car it was limited to 350 ft/lbs, as you know the LS1 was underrated and produced more than this from the factory. Other things that may be included since this might be a modified truck PCM is PE Delay which will keep it from going WOT for a set period of time after you depress the accelerator. Anyhow LS1 edit will hopefully come out before Hypertech and some of the others so that people will be able to fully tune their own cars instead of feeding it a half-baked "tune".
Why might it be a truck PCM? Having a PE delay on a high performance vehicle seems pretty dumb. What do you think the max torque will actually be? I have thought that for various reasons GM has been sandbagging the numbers.
Edit: Also does screwing with the PCM void the warrantee? (Not that I would necessarily care) If you change the program back can anyone tell you were screwing with it?
Edit: Also does screwing with the PCM void the warrantee? (Not that I would necessarily care) If you change the program back can anyone tell you were screwing with it?
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the physical PCM that they use is from a truck ....
they dont want to warranty transmissions so they have the TM
and a dealership will most likely not notice special tuning, if something is "odd" they might just re-flash it
they dont want to warranty transmissions so they have the TM
and a dealership will most likely not notice special tuning, if something is "odd" they might just re-flash it
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16,384 Posts
Having worked in the service lanes of a Chevy dealer for a few years while I was edumucating myself, let me explain something on the warranty.
ANYTIME, I do mean ANYTIME you alter the vehicle beyond stock or add alterations that are not approved and/or installed by the dealer, you warranty can legitimately be voided. There are some dealers that are a$$holes and will follow the letter of the book, there are others more lenient and of course there were dealers like ours, that in most cases didn't care and that the modification had to be the sole cause for component failure.
Can your warranty be voided for doing your own tuning with LS1Edit? Absolutely. Just as you can read all the tables, parameters and other data on your laptop, they can too with their hand held scanner called a Tech2. Hence if you remove torque management, you run 500+ hp into it, then fry it, then go to the dealer and tell them your trans took a sh*t on you, one of the first things they look for is TM table manipulation. They know of programs such as LS1Edit, aftermarket tuners, HPPIII's, etc. They know people like to eliminate TM. If it is not set in a range of stock settings, they know you've tampered with it and justifiably will void your warranty. They may just deny warranty coverage on the claim or they could completly blacklist your VIN#. Once again that depends on the dealer though. So returning it to stock settins won't trip any red flags as such, they probably won't investigate any further
04GTO, transmissions aren't cheap. You go eliminate torque management on it so as to get full power during shifts with your heads and cammed LS1, 50 runs later at the drag strip the transmission pukes on you, and now GM has to cover it??? That's why they put it on there. They have some fo the most powerful engines in their vehicles that they now must warranty for 3yr/36k miles (or more) you can bet they're gonna protect a few vital, costly components where they can.
Trust me, I hate TM also, my Allison is worse than many 4L60/80E's. But I don't want to eliminate it, then have to foot the bill for an Allison transmission cause they make Hydramatic units look like chump change in terms of price.
ANYTIME, I do mean ANYTIME you alter the vehicle beyond stock or add alterations that are not approved and/or installed by the dealer, you warranty can legitimately be voided. There are some dealers that are a$$holes and will follow the letter of the book, there are others more lenient and of course there were dealers like ours, that in most cases didn't care and that the modification had to be the sole cause for component failure.
Can your warranty be voided for doing your own tuning with LS1Edit? Absolutely. Just as you can read all the tables, parameters and other data on your laptop, they can too with their hand held scanner called a Tech2. Hence if you remove torque management, you run 500+ hp into it, then fry it, then go to the dealer and tell them your trans took a sh*t on you, one of the first things they look for is TM table manipulation. They know of programs such as LS1Edit, aftermarket tuners, HPPIII's, etc. They know people like to eliminate TM. If it is not set in a range of stock settings, they know you've tampered with it and justifiably will void your warranty. They may just deny warranty coverage on the claim or they could completly blacklist your VIN#. Once again that depends on the dealer though. So returning it to stock settins won't trip any red flags as such, they probably won't investigate any further
04GTO, transmissions aren't cheap. You go eliminate torque management on it so as to get full power during shifts with your heads and cammed LS1, 50 runs later at the drag strip the transmission pukes on you, and now GM has to cover it??? That's why they put it on there. They have some fo the most powerful engines in their vehicles that they now must warranty for 3yr/36k miles (or more) you can bet they're gonna protect a few vital, costly components where they can.
Trust me, I hate TM also, my Allison is worse than many 4L60/80E's. But I don't want to eliminate it, then have to foot the bill for an Allison transmission cause they make Hydramatic units look like chump change in terms of price.
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It's not whether or not it's a tough unit or not. We could debate how many of them we put in a pine or plastic coffin a week. It has to do with that they are expensive. If GM is going to warranty a car for 3yrs/36k miles, and in some cases more with the GM protection plan, they are going to protect it a little so as to reduce the number of them that come back to be replaced so as GM doesn't go out of business.
Remember, you, me and the others on this board are the less than 1% of GM consumers who want performance and as such will readily remove this safeguard they put into the PCM. The other 99% of GM's consumers don't care and probably don't even know TM exists. They don't care about having 400+ wheel hp, they don't care about launching the car at 3,000+ rpm on drag radials or stickier tires. All that puts additional stress on the transmission that GM didn't readily design into it. But it's us 1% who eliminate TM, increase line pressure, put in converters, then funnel 500+ flywheel HP through them then expect GM to foot the bill (which last I checked was $3-4k for a new transmission) for our exuberance and expect them not to ask questions.
If it were up to GM, they'd make TM tables unadjustable to us but unfortunately at this point in time they have to to also allow technicians to readily get to it for normal troubleshooting and adjustement with a Tech2.
Remember, you, me and the others on this board are the less than 1% of GM consumers who want performance and as such will readily remove this safeguard they put into the PCM. The other 99% of GM's consumers don't care and probably don't even know TM exists. They don't care about having 400+ wheel hp, they don't care about launching the car at 3,000+ rpm on drag radials or stickier tires. All that puts additional stress on the transmission that GM didn't readily design into it. But it's us 1% who eliminate TM, increase line pressure, put in converters, then funnel 500+ flywheel HP through them then expect GM to foot the bill (which last I checked was $3-4k for a new transmission) for our exuberance and expect them not to ask questions.
If it were up to GM, they'd make TM tables unadjustable to us but unfortunately at this point in time they have to to also allow technicians to readily get to it for normal troubleshooting and adjustement with a Tech2.
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What exactly do you consider weak?
I don't consider them weak for STOCK levels of power. Running a stock "sloppy" converter, stock line pressure the TM is only there as an insurance measure. They realize that many people with F-Body's, Y-Body's and trucks extensively modify their engines to increase power no matter how they try to "scare" them with threats of warranty being voided. Few except for the truly insane (such as yourself and myself) go that extra step further and woul contemplate decreasing and/or removing TM completely. As such, TM is an insurance method against those increased power levels
Can the trans survive without TM with stock settings? Yes.
Can the trans survive without TM with "performance" settings? Yes.
Can the trans survive without TM with "performance" settings and an aftermarket converter? Yes.
Question is...how long. Just like running big shots of Nitrous on a stock bottom end. It'll take it, but for how long???
Will you get 100,000+ out of a transmission with any form of modification, those being a converter, increased shift points and line pressure, and torque management removed and in some case all three together while handling increased levels of power from modifying the engine? I doubt you will. I don't exactly call that "weak"
I'd be willing to put up any TH350 or TH400 (non-race built of course) that was stuck behind 150hp V8's of a few years back into one of our 350+ hp cars today and see exactly how long it would last. Probably not much longer than a current day 4L60/80E with TM removed.
I don't consider them weak for STOCK levels of power. Running a stock "sloppy" converter, stock line pressure the TM is only there as an insurance measure. They realize that many people with F-Body's, Y-Body's and trucks extensively modify their engines to increase power no matter how they try to "scare" them with threats of warranty being voided. Few except for the truly insane (such as yourself and myself) go that extra step further and woul contemplate decreasing and/or removing TM completely. As such, TM is an insurance method against those increased power levels
Can the trans survive without TM with stock settings? Yes.
Can the trans survive without TM with "performance" settings? Yes.
Can the trans survive without TM with "performance" settings and an aftermarket converter? Yes.
Question is...how long. Just like running big shots of Nitrous on a stock bottom end. It'll take it, but for how long???
Will you get 100,000+ out of a transmission with any form of modification, those being a converter, increased shift points and line pressure, and torque management removed and in some case all three together while handling increased levels of power from modifying the engine? I doubt you will. I don't exactly call that "weak"
I'd be willing to put up any TH350 or TH400 (non-race built of course) that was stuck behind 150hp V8's of a few years back into one of our 350+ hp cars today and see exactly how long it would last. Probably not much longer than a current day 4L60/80E with TM removed.
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04 cars and trucks and 04 holdens are in beta testing ...no offical word on the GTO but it should not be a problem.
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235 Posts
The 4L60E is a very powerful transmission. Whoever says that it is weak hasn't done their homework. It is a modern day 700R4 and everybody knows the 700R4 is a beast.
If its so strong then why did they go to the trouble to develop the 4l65e? All of the parts that are upgraded in the new transmission are ones that commonly break in the 4l60. Anyhow hopefully these things will hold 500 hp without too much trouble.
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16,384 Posts
Then why did they develop the 4L85E? Then why did they put an Allison behind the 8.1 and Duramax? Then why, then why, then why.............
Why did they come out with the LS1 if the LT1 was sufficient?
You can never improve too much on a good thing.
Why did they come out with the LS1 if the LT1 was sufficient?
You can never improve too much on a good thing.
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