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Discussion Starter #41
Just got done installing everything, holy crap that smaller GeForce diff bracket was b!tch. The sway bar was a piece of cake, prob took me an hr to do it, I don’t know why I waited so long lol. But she drives really well. Barely any sway. Now on Monday they’ll install my eccentrics and it’s time to save up for the next thing
 

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Discussion Starter #42
so I finally go everything done in the rear end. sway bar, diff mount inner and outer bushings, only thing im waiting on is end link bushings and I was told they're a few weeks out. which isn't a big deal since they're literally 20min to install....prob longer to jack the car up than to swap them. so thats cool.

BUT!!!! when I went to pick my car up, after having the bushings installed they did an alignment. not only is the back end more f'd up than before.... but the whole car is muffed up. I never even had them do work to the front of the car

500126


now this is from a shop that specializes in suspension and tires. I cant find the print out from before, but it was no where near this bad out of whack..... and I hate buying tires. they're so expensive for what they are. ill be happy buying a new trans than I would if I had to buy tires. BUT... im wondering if anyone sees what I see in the print out.

I was thinking the subframe might be out, and unfortunately Andy isn't carrying it anymore since some a-holes shafted him and never returned it...TWICE!!!! but lets see if anyone sees what I see.

the number written on the side is the height of the coilovers
 

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hmm. my thoughts:

from the quick research i've done from old threads, 8.5-9 degrees of caster is desired. did they change the washer settings on the radius castors at all? you might want to to that yourself if they haven't, you should still have the instructions, i hope. it allows for -.25 and -0.5 degrees of adjustment, and up to 1.25+ adjustment from stock.

wondering why they didn't bother adjusting camber. is it out of room for adjustment? do the pedders coilovers utilize the stock-style adjustment screw and notched clevis bolt holes, or how does it work? never messed with them, but i would imagine it would be close to being like stock.

you might need to just do dual eccentrics in back if just the outers didn't fix it. honestly i'm not sure if just the outers will work right with poly inners, but anyway.... you might need to completely ditch the toe link to get the amount of adjustment you need, and you will still probably be negative.

also, i wouldn't be too worried about spring heights as long as the car sits level.

lastly, lowering a GTO sucks. it's so much easier keeping things stock ride height.
 

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...and i am sure a front subframe alignment would help. even if the tools are no longer floating around, i'm sure it is possible to DIY it if you know the correct reference points on the unibody to use. I have never attempted it, personally.

makes you wish they had a little more precision aseembling the car at the Elizabeth plant, though. i wonder if they took more care on the monaros because they had pride in those and not the POS they were shipping to the US... because smurf the US, right?
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Wow lol, I was just gonna say it looked like they didn’t do anything to the car. All the numbers just about look the same
 

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so I finally go everything done in the rear end. sway bar, diff mount inner and outer bushings, only thing im waiting on is end link bushings and I was told they're a few weeks out. which isn't a big deal since they're literally 20min to install....prob longer to jack the car up than to swap them. so thats cool.

BUT!!!! when I went to pick my car up, after having the bushings installed they did an alignment. not only is the back end more f'd up than before.... but the whole car is muffed up. I never even had them do work to the front of the car

View attachment 500126

now this is from a shop that specializes in suspension and tires. I cant find the print out from before, but it was no where near this bad out of whack..... and I hate buying tires. they're so expensive for what they are. ill be happy buying a new trans than I would if I had to buy tires. BUT... im wondering if anyone sees what I see in the print out.

I was thinking the subframe might be out, and unfortunately Andy isn't carrying it anymore since some a-holes shafted him and never returned it...TWICE!!!! but lets see if anyone sees what I see.

the number written on the side is the height of the coilovers
This kind of crap is why I do my alignments. For liability reasons it is nearly impossible getting a shop to setup a car anything outside of factory spec (understandable in this law suit driven society) Couple that with employees who either have no idea what they are doing, don't give a damn or both, then top it with a quirky car like a late model GTO. Sadly this is often the result. The last time is the last time I allow any hands on my car that don't belong to me. If I don't have the tools I get them, sometimes I have to make them. If I don't have the skills I learn them, sometimes the hard way. No one cares more than you about your car. If by chance you run into someone that does he/she probably wants to buy it and won't mind shelling out a premium. Sell it and go get another.
 

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I would be suspicious of the rear toe. I am no suspension expert but with the amount of rear toe you have I wonder how the rear end tracks. I have all poly bushings, koni shocks, lovells 20mm drop springs, harrop rear cover, sphon toe bars and I am very impressed with the handling for such a big car. Here are my alignment setting:

Front
Camber -1.0
Caster +10.2
Caster and Camber is same left to right
Toe out 1/8"

Rear
Camber -1.5
Toe 0

Setup this way the car really rotates nice. Fine tuning the alignment can have significant changes in handling.

I experimented with toe in and toe out and it had a drastic impact on over/under steer.

I do not want to assume anything so I will ask, have you checked the tie rods on the front? Mine were shot and my car has low miles and never in bad weather. When I changed the tie rods all the vagueness in the steering disappeared.
 

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I do not want to assume anything so I will ask, have you checked the tie rods on the front? Mine were shot and my car has low miles and never in bad weather. When I changed the tie rods all the vagueness in the steering disappeared.
The first time i had a bad tie rod, there was a vague vibration at about 30 mph. Second time i noticed nothing while on the road, but saw some play when under the car checking things.

That is also something a shop should bring to your attention if it is the case. They shouldn't even attempt an alignment--they need to inform you that you need suspension work.

Also, those inner tie rods are sneaky. Be sure to check them, and not just the outers.
 

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The first time i had a bad tie rod, there was a vague vibration at about 30 mph. Second time i noticed nothing while on the road, but saw some play when under the car checking things.

That is also something a shop should bring to your attention if it is the case. They shouldn't even attempt an alignment--they need to inform you that you need suspension work.

Also, those inner tie rods are sneaky. Be sure to check them, and not just the outers.

I had no symptoms of a bad tie rod other than vague steering. When I lifted the front end I could feel all the play in both. There was no tire wear, or any other indication, but once replaced I could really feel the sharpness return. It would be good to check them if you haven't.
 

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I had no symptoms of a bad tie rod other than vague steering. When I lifted the front end I could feel all the play in both. There was no tire wear, or any other indication, but once replaced I could really feel the sharpness return. It would be good to check them if you haven't.
Yeah. I've heard from a few folks that it seems to be a pretty common thing to wear out in the suspension.

There are quite a few options out now for replacement, though, besides the roadsafe and pedders. GTOG8TA has their own style, and i think i've seen some on rockauto. Mevotech, delphi, and there is one listed from acdelco as well.

I think i posted a comparison pic of the first 3 styles i mentioned somwhere.

I wonder how durable/reliable each version is. My roadsafe replacment didn't last long the first time around.
 

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Yeah. I've heard from a few folks that it seems to be a pretty common thing to wear out in the suspension.

There are quite a few options out now for replacement, though, besides the roadsafe and pedders. GTOG8TA has their own style, and i think i've seen some on rockauto. Mevotech, delphi, and there is one listed from acdelco as well.

I think i posted a comparison pic of the first 3 styles i mentioned somwhere.

I wonder how durable/reliable each version is. My roadsafe replacment didn't last long the first time around.
I went with the Pedders tie rods that I purchased from Kollar Racing. They have been on about 3,000 miles. I will see how long they last. The car had about 46,000 on the stock tie rods.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
first off, let me say thank you to everyone that has responded with positive things. a few times on here there have been those that offer zero help and just banter and it gets very frustrating when your trying to get things fixed. And though he hasn't chimed in, Andy has been a huge help.

so I made an appointment for this Friday to start the weekend early and go to get yet another alignment...or to just get an alignment lol. I found a very reputable shop that has been doing work down here for over 30 years, and actually came recommended from a GM speciality chassis and performance shop.

im kind of confused where you all are coming from as far as the toe is concerned. maybe im not reading the readout right but it all seems pretty good (to me anyways). I know its not spot on but it is in the green...except for the front passenger side that barely in the green but green regardless. I only see it as degrees and don't know how to convert it to a measurement.

I will definitely have them check the tie rods when he's under there... maybe it just needs to be popped out and given a spin to bring the toe in spec better. I mean I was always told to have the car aligned to factory spec... and me not knowing a lot about alignments, thats all I always told the guys to do.
 

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first off, let me say thank you to everyone that has responded with positive things. a few times on here there have been those that offer zero help and just banter and it gets very frustrating when your trying to get things fixed. And though he hasn't chimed in, Andy has been a huge help.

so I made an appointment for this Friday to start the weekend early and go to get yet another alignment...or to just get an alignment lol. I found a very reputable shop that has been doing work down here for over 30 years, and actually came recommended from a GM speciality chassis and performance shop.

im kind of confused where you all are coming from as far as the toe is concerned. maybe im not reading the readout right but it all seems pretty good (to me anyways). I know its not spot on but it is in the green...except for the front passenger side that barely in the green but green regardless. I only see it as degrees and don't know how to convert it to a measurement.

I will definitely have them check the tie rods when he's under there... maybe it just needs to be popped out and given a spin to bring the toe in spec better. I mean I was always told to have the car aligned to factory spec... and me not knowing a lot about alignments, thats all I always told the guys to do.
There are the factory recommended toe settings, which are slightly negative to help straight line stability, but keitho64 has it set up for more responsive steering.

It just depends what you want.
 

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The mighty google says taking the sine of the angle and multiplying by tire diameter should give you the toe measurement in inches. That is for a single tire wheel, not totsl toe.

I guess you would take the toe in inches, devide by tire diameter, and take the arcsine of the result to find the toe measurement in degrees.

So assuming 1/8th of an inch total toe, that's 1/16th of an inch toe per wheel. 26" tire gives you about .14 degrees toe out.

You have .23 degrees total toe in, so that's a little less than 1/8th total negative toe, more like .104"

Of course your tires probably are between 25-26 inches, so those number might be a little off, but i think that's how it works.
 

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If it was me I would ask them to set the car to exact spec. Forget that within green bs.

This would be my choice for street driving:

0 toe front and back
-2 degree front camber
10 degree caster (or as much as they can get, more the better).
-1.5 degree rear camber

This setup would give you very good handling with minimal tire wear. It is toe that wears out tires, not camber.

For drag racing:
0 degree rear camber (for extra straight line traction)

For autox or road racing:
-3.5 degree front camber (for extra front end grip in turns)
1/8" front toe out (for more responsive turn in)
42 psi front and 29 psi rear tire pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
If it was me I would ask them to set the car to exact spec. Forget that within green bs.

This would be my choice for street driving:

0 toe front and back
-2 degree front camber
10 degree caster (or as much as they can get, more the better).
-1.5 degree rear camber

This setup would give you very good handling with minimal tire wear. It is toe that wears out tires, not camber.

For drag racing:
0 degree rear camber (for extra straight line traction)

For autox or road racing:
-3.5 degree front camber (for extra front end grip in turns)
1/8" front toe out (for more responsive turn in)
42 psi front and 29 psi rear tire pressure.
-2* camber??? this alignment thing has me completely baffled. how did you come to these numbers
 

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They work best for him and how he has set the car up, and how he wants it to handle.

When in doubt though, especially if you juat street the car, factory specs are acceptable. You can get really into tuning it, or you can just have it set to factory specs and forget it.

With the mods you have done to you car, i think you may want to consider tweaking the alingment to your liking. Might as well at this point.

I think it's time for you to go further down the becauseracecarsuspension rabbit hole. (Even though then GTO really doesn't have a racecar suspension.)
 

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Discussion Starter #58
I think im gonna do the factory specs for now, once Im able to just keep this car for the weekend fun, ill start getting into messing with all that. without having much knowledge on the issue im just gonna KISS the whole thing until I read up on it more
 

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Also, with a purely stock style front suspension and at least stock sized wheels and tires, it can be hard to get a lot of camber in on the front as the gap between the top of the tire and the strut body are already pretty tight at stock specs. Now, if you have wider than stock tires it makes it even harder. I don't recall, but if you have coilovers they allow for more camber as they are not as close to the inside of the tire. I honestly don't recall the maximum amount of camber you can expect to get on stock style struts.

I will say this: CAMBER RULES. On my daily, I installed a factory suspension kit which lowered the car 20mm and gave it slightly stiffer springs and shocks. This was great and all, but the alignment specs suggested with the kit increases the camber a noticeable amount. THAT made a fairly pedestrian car handle REALLY well. Coupled with really good Summer only tires and an improved rear sway bar it was downright impressive (to me at least) for what it is and no more than was done to it. It can pull just over 1G in both directions.
 

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OP signature shows Pedders coilovers. -2 degrees camber in front should be possible with Pedders as far as I can remember. Anything more and it requires offset strut mounts.
Strut rub can be fixed by using wheel spacers on stock wheels or just right wheel offset on aftermarket wheels. With extra camber and wheel spacers it is easy to get the wheel to be in exact same as original position relative to the fender edge to prevent any rubbing.
 
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