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Kollar Racing Products
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Gentleman,
None of us has physically seen the car. I merely advise him to use his warranty first, and have the alignment checked again on different equipment. This is the least expensive approach to start with. If in fact his camber is out that much then parts replacement is required. I would rather throw away $100 on a second opinion then guessing on what is actually wrong with the car. Not every GTO suffers from spring sag,strut rub, bad struts and strut mounts. I have 70K and suffer from none of this...the car still aligns with in spec. Would you spend money on repairing a Televison under warranty? Absolutely not.
 

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Suspension Guru
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7,700 Posts
No offense, but your opinion is wrong.

I'm sure I could show you at least 3 problems that your GTO has, and i'm sure that Frank could do the same.

Taking your care to another show that doesn't know what they are looking at will only cost money and not solve anything.

Edit:
I have 70K and suffer from none of this..
you have replaced the radius rod bushings and the tie rods already....
 

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Igot1 listen to these pedders guys. my car wore tires bad 1st 16k miles. Had a pedders trackII kit w/1" drop front,1/2" rear, camber bushes and all the other necessary bushes. Spent some coin but the difference is unbelievable from stock and I've got 18k on staggered set of tires 275/35/18 rear 245/40/18 front NO uneven wear on any and only half tread gone on rears only about 1/4 gone on fronts. I figure I'll have to buy rears before summer but fronts should make it through the year. In tire wear alone you will make up a good bit of the cost of the kit if you plan on keeping the car for awhile. Just my 0.02
 

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Kollar Racing Products
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Am I offended? No. Your entitled to your opinion. I didnt need Peddars to tell me what was wrong with my car. Its no secret that the factory radius rod bushing are junk. I went to align the car and I discovered the drivers side tie rods are shot. No offense intended, I dont need a Peddars dealer to tell me what is wrong with my car. Any comptetant mechanic can work on the GTO...its not rocket science. My tires wear flat and even...35K out of the BFGs and 30K out of the G3D3s. Could you find something wrong on my car? Sure...you will tell me my cradles need be aligned. Im sure my flux capacitor is bad to. Your in the business to sell parts and service. So am I to a lesser extent. I could sell this guy stock height springs too. But I would rather sell him the springs when he is sure he needs them. A car under warranty should be fixed by GM first. I guess if your TV crapped out under warranty you wouldnt get warrantied first...you would pay someone to fix....or just throw it out and buy new one.
 

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Suspension Guru
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ok, how would you suggest he fix his camber issue in the rear?

replacing it with OE springs (on the 5% chance the dealer agrees) will just but off replacing them with something better in the future. The stock springs are just not reliable enough and will fail again.

This isn't me trying to sell anything, (actually have said many times to NOT do a camber adjuster) This is me trying to help someone get their car to do what they want, and with the best info that I have. I've worked on a lot of GTO's and only a very few of them did not have rear springs that were sagging more than 25mm (1 inch) from where the stock ones were. Some of them were in the 35-40mm range. Even the newest GTO's I've done were sagging more than 10mm. (Brought from the dealer to me)

As for the TV, if the pain and hassle of getting it covered were to much, and I knew it was a flaw that would just happen again down the road, no, i'm upgrading to a new TV that doesn't have the same problem.
 

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Kollar Racing Products
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I never said the car didnt need springs. Trying to determine what actually wrong with the car without seeing it is always a guess. Can you honestly say that you have NEVER gotten two different alignment numbers from two diffrent machines or for that matter the same machine? The gentlmen has a warranty that he paid for, not using it defeats the purpose for the purchase of the warranty in the first place. If the gentleman want to upgrade his suspension thats one thing, repairing whats wrong is another thing all together.
 

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Suspension Guru
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getting the dealer to replace them under warranty has been very uncommon, while it has happen it involved a lot of hassle on the side of the owner. Replacing them with OE in the best case will not correct the problem long term.

As for the alignment machine, while a little variation can happen it's not very common to have enough to make a difference.
 

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I never said the car didnt need springs. Trying to determine what actually wrong with the car without seeing it is always a guess. Can you honestly say that you have NEVER gotten two different alignment numbers from two diffrent machines or for that matter the same machine? The gentlmen has a warranty that he paid for, not using it defeats the purpose for the purchase of the warranty in the first place. If the gentleman want to upgrade his suspension thats one thing, repairing whats wrong is another thing all together.
With over 20 years of Dealership work under my belt, WE All can see that He won't have any LUCK, warranty or not at the dealership, So that said What Can WE do for him To help him out is first and formost Maybe the dealership will pay for the Labor and he can Have a aftermarket set of springs or Bushings installed That May work or have a third party fix the car....As far as Mr duckman WE know that Your Not a Fan of PEDDERS and Thats OK But Don't let us Not help someone that's needs some help with What YOU think. We ALL can help him with what WE KNOW....frank
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
Next move ...?

WOW ... I really appreciate all of your informed opinions relating to MY problem cuz when I approach the Dealer I will now have more informed knowledge of just what's up with my/our cars. And relating to my extended warranty, one of the reasons that I paid the BIG BUCKS for it in the first place was due to the lack of an established track record relating to the ongoing performance of the new AUS GTO's!

what do you all think about this approach ... why don't I make an appointment for an alignment at the Dealer and find out what they find out and then see what their recommendation is for fixing the "problem"?

Hopefully G.M., Pontiac and the Dealer will step up to the plate under my extended warranty to FIX WHAT IS BROKEN!!!

what a bunch of crap ... how dare they infer that we the new GTO family has to accept a less than acceptable product? did they tell any of us that we'd have to replace tires at this rate when we originally bought these cars?

so ... with all this said ... should I go into the Dealership with "guns blazing" based upon the objective verifiable evidence that I already have to this point OR should I set up another appointment for an alignment with them and then just play dumb and find out what they find out?

You all are just GREAT and once again ... I really appreciate your input!!!

THANKS!


With over 20 years of Dealership work under my belt, WE All can see that He won't have any LUCK, warranty or not at the dealership, So that said What Can WE do for him To help him out is first and formost Maybe the dealership will pay for the Labor and he can Have a aftermarket set of springs or Bushings installed That May work or have a third party fix the car....As far as Mr duckman WE know that Your Not a Fan of PEDDERS and Thats OK But Don't let us Not help someone that's needs some help with What YOU think. We ALL can help him with what WE KNOW....frank
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Next move ...

Well, the balls gonna be in their court because I've got an appointment for 9 a.m. tomorrow at the Dealer for a four wheel alignment ... so ... my "hope" is that I'm working with a reputable Dealer and one that will stand behind the Extended Warranty that THEY sold me in the first place cuz if they cannot get it aligned per spec (which per NTB is impossible!), then by definition, something must be broken, right and if something is broken then that's what I bought the extended Warranty to cover, right?

my only concern is that they try to blame in on one of the uncovered parts, like the struts ("shock absorbers") ...
 

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Well, the balls gonna be in their court because I've got an appointment for 9 a.m. tomorrow at the Dealer for a four wheel alignment ... so ... my "hope" is that I'm working with a reputable Dealer and one that will stand behind the Extended Warranty that THEY sold me in the first place cuz if they cannot get it aligned per spec (which per NTB is impossible!), then by definition, something must be broken, right and if something is broken then that's what I bought the extended Warranty to cover, right?

my only concern is that they try to blame in on one of the uncovered parts, like the struts ("shock absorbers") ...
Good Luck WE are Pullin for you....Frank
 

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Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
Well ... good news after all! Thanks to my Dealer!

Thanks to my Dealer's knowledge of the facts pertaining to GTOs and in this case wheel alignments (Sorry NTB ... rear camber adjustment settings do actually exist!), in addition to their recently installed 4 wheel alignment equipment, my right rear out of camber problem has been fixed ... in addition to the previously unannounced out of spec Toe settings that NTB was nice enough to leave me with on each of my front wheels ... all for the additional cost of only a $99.95 wheel alignment performed by my Dealer!

and regardless of what Mr. Turkeyhawk's opinion is regarding extended warranties, the Dealer also performed an overall general inspection on my suspension parts while performing the alignment to ensure that if any repairs were indeed required, that they would be performed TODAY! and guess what ... all's good for now!!

In closing out the year on this problem ... thanks one last time to all for their input and ... HAPPY NEW YEAR!

and oh yeah, my dealer located in St. Louis MO is ...

McMahon Pontiac - GMC
3295 S. Kingshighway
St Louis, MO 63139



I will agree with Turkeyhawk that expecting the dealer to replace all of that under warranty is never going to happen. However he paid for warranty. The only thing this car may need is a $100 alignment by someone with a clue to fix his tire wear and camber problem.
 

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Kollar Racing Products
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5,426 Posts
Thanks to my Dealer's knowledge of the facts pertaining to GTOs and in this case wheel alignments (Sorry NTB ... rear camber adjustment settings do actually exist!), in addition to their recently installed 4 wheel alignment equipment, my right rear out of camber problem has been fixed ... in addition to the previously unannounced out of spec Toe settings that NTB was nice enough to leave me with on each of my front wheels ... all for the additional cost of only a $99.95 wheel alignment performed by my Dealer!

and regardless of what Mr. Turkeyhawk's opinion is regarding extended warranties, the Dealer also performed an overall general inspection on my suspension parts while performing the alignment to ensure that if any repairs were indeed required, that they would be performed TODAY! and guess what ... all's good for now!!

In closing out the year on this problem ... thanks one last time to all for their input and ... HAPPY NEW YEAR!

and oh yeah, my dealer located in St. Louis MO is ...

McMahon Pontiac - GMC
3295 S. Kingshighway
St Louis, MO 63139
That great...Im glad your car is fixed. Did they give you a print out of the befores and afters? If you have them...I would love to see them...
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Specified Range ... Alignment Settings per Pontiac

Per Pontiac ...

1. Right Rear Camber ... Specified Range is -1.7 -0.4 ... before and after Pontiac dealer alignment, the Right Rear Camber is -1.6 ... even though the tire store had originally reported it as not adjustable and at - 1 7/8 or -1.875.
2. Right Rear Toe ... Specified Range is 0.03 0.37 ... before Pontiac dealer alignment, the Right Rear Toe was 0.22 and after is 0.23.

Additionally ... the following alignment settings were off even though the tire store had just performed the alignment supposedly bringing each of them into spec', i.e. ...

1) Right Front Toe ... Pontiac's Specified Range is 0.00 0.17 ... before Pontiac alignment, the Right Front Toe was 0.20 and after is now within range at 0.10.
2) Left Front Toe ... Pontiac's Specified Range is 0.00 0.17 ... before Pontiac alignment, the Left Front Toe was -0.02 and after is now within range at 0.11.
3) Left Rear Camber ... Pontiac's Specified Range is -1.7 -0.4 ... before Pontiac alignment, the Left Rear Camber was at the outside limit of this range at -1.7, it is now set in unison with the Right Rear Camber at -1.6.


What were the before and after readings on the rear toe and camber

if the rear toe was out of spec take the print out back to where the first alignment was done and get your money back.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Missing info ...

Rob,

First off ... note my changes below ... and then to "fill in the blanks" per Pontiac spec's and my dealer's alignment ...

Left Rear Toe ... Range = 0.03 0.37 ... Before 0.09 ...After 0.09

Left Front Camber ... Range = -0.7 0.3 ... Before -0.5 ...After -0.5
Right Front Camber ... Range = -0.7 0.3 ... Before -0.6 ...After -0.6

and Rob, you suggest replacing the springs ... WHY would this be ?

I mean if the alignment is within GM specifications ... what do you mean by ... "so negative" ... and then what is wrong with the OE springs?

Maybe you can educate me but from a layman like I am ... if it ain't broke why fix it? and if it's indeed "broken" then why is it still within GM spec's? I mean will I continue burning up tires even though the Dealer's shop said that I wouldn't?

So please ... "Larn me" ...



left rear toe?

Front
Camber L=? R=?
Toe L=.10 s/b .11 R=.11 s/b .10

Rear
Camber L=-1.7 s/b -1.6 R=-1.6
Toe L=? .09 R=+.23

Please fill in the missing parts please,

The change is very minimal from what i can see, and being so negative, the fix is to replace the springs.
 
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