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Suspension Guru
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Rob,

First off ... note my changes below ... and then to "fill in the blanks" per Pontiac spec's and my dealer's alignment ...

Left Rear Toe ... Range = 0.03 0.37 ... Before 0.09 ...After 0.09

Left Front Camber ... Range = -0.7 0.3 ... Before -0.5 ...After -0.5
Right Front Camber ... Range = -0.7 0.3 ... Before -0.6 ...After -0.6

and Rob, you suggest replacing the springs ... WHY would this be ?

I mean if the alignment is within GM specifications ... what do you mean by ... "so negative" ... and then what is wrong with the OE springs?

Maybe you can educate me but from a layman like I am ... if it ain't broke why fix it? and if it's indeed "broken" then why is it still within GM spec's? I mean will I continue burning up tires even though the Dealer's shop said that I wouldn't?

So please ... "Larn me" ...
Rob,
see my reply inserted below ...
ok, your rear toe is not adjusted properly.

while it is in 'spec' it's not what I'd consider close enough to consider it good.

The toe should be even on both sides, the more of a difference there is then the more the thrust angle is off.

As far as the rear camber, your at the limits of the rear camber, at rest with no load on the engine, is not a good thing.

When you accelerate, your camber will go more negative, and lean in on the top. This will increase your inner tire wear on the rear tires. The camber on my car is about -1.0 and i have stiffer springs so it doesn't squat anywhere near as much as with stock springs.

Just to give you an idea of what the 'tolerance' is. GM has a spec on how much a lower ball joint on a Blazer can be. I believe it's nearly 1/4". This is the spec they use to say a ball joint is not bad until it's more than 1/4" of play. Anyone that knows anything knows doing an alignment with ball joints that have 1/4" of play is useless, but GM says it's ok.

Your equivalent is your camber is at the tolerance due to the springs. With out replacing the springs it's not going to get better and you will still continue to wear your inner edges out.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Hmnnnn ....!

Rob,
As mentioned, I appreciate your input but I'm thinking that after considering my general driving style that the most recent alignment settings might just "fit" me for the following reasons ...

While I've never taken my GTO to the track, I am an ex-sportscar enthusiast who is assertive off the line at stoplights while also enjoying an aggressive driving style on winding back roads ... all driving done within legally specified limits and regulations ... OF COURSE! :cool:

So in order to support this "style", I want to hook up more of a performance alignment setup ... i.e. one that maximizes tire performance while also pushing the "limits" by maxing out negative camber, positive caster and toe settings all within Pontiac's generally accepted "specified range" ...

And while I might be setting myself up for an "I told you so" down the road, I'm going to just stay with what I've got for now ... cuz by doing so, I will ...
1) save on the cost to buy new springs and get them installed.
2) avoid the cost of yet another alignment. ... which after two already done recently is really starting to add up!




ok, your rear toe is not adjusted properly.

while it is in 'spec' it's not what I'd consider close enough to consider it good.

The toe should be even on both sides, the more of a difference there is then the more the thrust angle is off.

As far as the rear camber, your at the limits of the rear camber, at rest with no load on the engine, is not a good thing.

When you accelerate, your camber will go more negative, and lean in on the top. This will increase your inner tire wear on the rear tires. The camber on my car is about -1.0 and i have stiffer springs so it doesn't squat anywhere near as much as with stock springs.

Just to give you an idea of what the 'tolerance' is. GM has a spec on how much a lower ball joint on a Blazer can be. I believe it's nearly 1/4". This is the spec they use to say a ball joint is not bad until it's more than 1/4" of play. Anyone that knows anything knows doing an alignment with ball joints that have 1/4" of play is useless, but GM says it's ok.

Your equivalent is your camber is at the tolerance due to the springs. With out replacing the springs it's not going to get better and you will still continue to wear your inner edges out.
 

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And while I might be setting myself up for an "I told you so" down the road, I'm going to just stay with what I've got for now ... cuz by doing so, I will ...
1) save on the cost to buy new springs and get them installed.
2) avoid the cost of yet another alignment. ... which after two already done recently is really starting to add up!
just a thought from 10 feet away, but don't places around you offer a lifetime, or even just maybe a 5 year alignment for a few extra bucks? might be worth it for you
 

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I don't understand this thread. If I read this right, the OP stated there was a problem with excessive tire wear, 2 alignments later with minimal (if any) changes and now he is happy?

A -1.7 rear camber will eat your rear tires regardless of if it is in spec. On my 05 GTO with the 17" wheels, the insides of my rear tires wore very fast with a -1.1 negative camber compared to my front tires with -0.7 camber. I never rotated my tires.

To further demonstrate our rear springs suck, I replaced the rear springs on my 06 with Pedders 1/2" drop springs at 2500 miles and the rear right height remained the same (go figure). I can also say there is a lot less squat in the back under acceleration.

You need to replace your rear springs. Replacing them with Pedders would cost you less than $200. Heck, you just paid the dealer $100 to print out a piece of paper for you. You might as well spend money on something that will fix your problem. You will get your money back with longer tire life (tires for our cars are not cheap).

Edit: Just for my understanding, can the OP state what was done to "address" the excessive tire wear. I might have missed something.

Edit2: I saw the OP was worried about the cost of installing the rear springs. They are very easy to replace yourself and with simple tools can be done in about 15 minutes.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Yeah but ...

If you read my first thread on this subject you'll find that the tire dealer were the guys that couldn't fix things in the first place ... i.e. while they could sell me tires they could not perform a decent alignment ... so, given my recent history, who would you take your GTO to?

The Pontiac/GMC dealer where I originally bought my car gets my vote! :cool::cool:


just a thought from 10 feet away, but don't places around you offer a lifetime, or even just maybe a 5 year alignment for a few extra bucks? might be worth it for you
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Well then ...!

If my rear coil springs are indeed "shot", then why didn't the tire dealer try selling me on those replacements in addition to the tires?

on a more inquisitive note ... what is everybody else out there with '05 GTO's, manual shifts and 17" wheels running in the way of Toe, Camber and Thrust Angle settings on their last alignment? and are they working, i.e. do you have OE or after market parts?



but your rear toe/thrust angle is still out, and your camber is maxed
 

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Suspension Guru
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If my rear coil springs are indeed "shot", then why didn't the tire dealer try selling me on those replacements in addition to the tires?

on a more inquisitive note ... what is everybody else out there with '05 GTO's, manual shifts and 17" wheels running in the way of Toe, Camber and Thrust Angle settings on their last alignment? and are they working, i.e. do you have OE or after market parts?

They just don't know enough about them, nor a supplier for the springs, and they are a tire dealer, why would they want to.

Thrust Angle should be as close to 0 as you can get it.

Anything more than +-.05 is to much, .0 is optimal.

You asked for help,

I offered help, and have answered repeatedly the same info.

Others have backed up what i've said, i'm not sure what more i can say.

To fix your tire wear issues your rear springs will need to be replaced, period.
 

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Instead of trying to defend what you were told by the tire dealer OR the Pontiac Dealership- follow the directions given earlier and go measure the ride height YOURSELF, ask Rob or Frank to give you(if they haven't already) the proper ride height and you will SEE FOR YOURSELF that your rear springs are sagging and need to be replaced. It is common knowledge by almost all on this board that the sagging springs are partly caused by the long boat-ride from Australia and partly by the lack of tight enough quality control from GM on their tolerances for differences in spring height. Please just go out and measure them and report back here and if we are all wrong I will apoligize for every body. Not trying to be an ass, just trying to help you based on my own experience on spring heights with other GM vehicles.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
For your review ...

Per Pedders spec's already given to me by Rob, the measurements are supposed to be taken with only 1/4 tank of gas and while I haven't gotten down to that point yet I took some preliminary measurements, i.e. when I measured them last week with a full tank of gas both rear sides measured at about 575 mm's and the fronts were about 592 mm's ... and per my measurements just minutes ago, with a little less that 2/3 tank, the rear measurements were up to almost 585 mm's and the fronts remained at about the same height + or - 1 or 2 mm's.

so ... what can we infer by these intermediary measurements?

and while I do appreciate Rob's and your "Still Wrenchin" :cool: help, I also recall back the mid '80's when I had to replace all of the shocks and springs all the way around on my Buick Regal ... so does GM strike me once again? OR can I get lucky and with a 1/4 tank of gas the height measurements on the rear increase to about where they should be?

And lastly, if the springs are bad, they are a part covered under my Extended Warranty so what are my chances of making that happen?


Instead of trying to defend what you were told by the tire dealer OR the Pontiac Dealership- follow the directions given earlier and go measure the ride height YOURSELF, ask Rob or Frank to give you(if they haven't already) the proper ride height and you will SEE FOR YOURSELF that your rear springs are sagging and need to be replaced. It is common knowledge by almost all on this board that the sagging springs are partly caused by the long boat-ride from Australia and partly by the lack of tight enough quality control from GM on their tolerances for differences in spring height. Please just go out and measure them and report back here and if we are all wrong I will apoligize for every body. Not trying to be an ass, just trying to help you based on my own experience on spring heights with other GM vehicles.
 

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Let me approach it from my angle. I too was having lots of rear tire wear problems. Tire dealer kept saying it was an alignment issue(actually it is-no rear camber adjustment),but alignment shop kept telling me alignment was within spec. I finally found this forum and started seeing lots of other folks complaining about tire wear. I finally gave up on warranty(they insisted it was within spec so no repairs) and started measuring my ride heights. I was already familiar with IRS as I own a 1980 corvette and this was always an issue that had to be watched(we always adjusted the rear cambers on the vette to compensate for tire wear). Any way to cut to the chase the end result was I just cussed to myself about any warranty, bit the bullit and changed the springs as well as assorted bushings and struts/shocks.At the rate I was replacing tires it was time to try something different.Have yet to notice any significant tire wear several thousand miles after the spring replacement.
 

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Twin IBM/blue GTO's: 05 + 06
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So......... do the rear springs first, then go from there?
 

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Wow what a great read this was for me..!
Ive got nor had nothing close to a GTO (my misfortune) tho I’ve totally enjoyed the minds dedicated to this thread.. caught my eye as i am looking/learning what i van regarding alignment issues as not to be ping pong empty pocket between dealer service and tire service shops.. im currently sitting behind wheel of a 2015 xv crosstrex (subaru) with 138,000 of Several pioneer (very carefully navigated along the Barlow Trail on Mt.Hood) and alot of backroad (ForestService) and thousands of Highway and city miles in all weather conditions (excluding mud..sand yes mud no). Ive discovered Nokian WRG4 225/55/17 in Utah in Sept of 2018 and tomorrow replacing with very same 6-2-2020 with 49k miles on them under a 60,000 guarantee (?) warranty ,, front two are wasted - showing belt on outer edges and driver side actually looks like it’s cut along the top and separating..
back tires look hell a good in comparison..
Tires were not that bad off when i had Subaru dealer do alignment not more than several months back..i might add that I’ve had my front oem struts replaced with K&N
Struts a year or so ago due to a pothole completely blew out passenger side one.
I should have replaced the rear at same time but was lacking in financial ability at the time and honestly forgot for a while with exception of now and then a good bump in the road or God forsaken speedbumps bigger than a curb for no reason i then feel the stiff jolt in rear as my inner cargo shifts everywhere and up to the front seat comes my 3yr old Great Dane acting like we just lost the entire back of the car..
so i appologize For not fitting in with this post of GTO issues,, and don’t expect any replies to this as well, so please accept my addoration for your knowledge not lost here!!
And know- me among im sure many more gain knowledge which pieces together the puzzles were into in our own situations —
Thank you all -..!!

attached is only thing i recieved from dealer after allignment (alleged allignment i add)
And i did call after to seek the actual Spec numbers used prior and after - and inquired as wtf are they refering too A KIT ? - started conversation asking about the numbers to which said they would include in an email which was apparently sent to a black hole as ive still not recieved any such email- and ended with more confusion in my part then started regarding the KIT mentioned..
why would i need a kit-as lending to what the crap is really the issue here- tho i precieved i was among minions with a master controller behind the curtain so i just ended the phone call)
502555
 

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Wol Gemut
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sell the Subaru and buy a GTO. win, win, win.
 
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