LS1GTO Forums banner

41 - 60 of 65 Posts

·
The Entenmann's Shim-Sham
Joined
·
12,461 Posts
Heres the link to epa's website. Keep in mind, you have to actually comprehend what they are saying. The wording they use might be a little confusing for you. But to sum it up for you, all devices which alter emissions on vehicles are targeted.
Let go down the line of what that means.
Do these modifications alter the original emissions?
engine swap (yes)
stroker engine (yes)
supercharger (yes)
turbo (yes)
headers (yes)
tuning (yes)
exhaust (yes)
air intake (yes)

I could keep going........

I asked for links to back the specific claims that SEMA was making. I didn't ask for your snarky condescension, and you can rightly go fuck yourself for providing it.
 

·
The Entenmann's Shim-Sham
Joined
·
12,461 Posts
well, duh, right to repair is a huge issue!




bullcrap. once they are done with manufacturers, there is nothing to say they won't come after individuals.

Also, just from working with the GTO, we know even aftermarket cats can set off a CEL. Car manufacturers have the resources for R&D while your small time aftermarket parts shop does not. They will either need to design parts that meet federal requirements or drown in fines.

The problem here, buddy, isn't clean air or 'ohnoweguncrycozourcarswontbeloudandwontsmellboohoo." it's going to murder the industry.
This is a problem since the fix is to turn off the code, and as such, the car would be defeating an emissions device and no longer compliant even if the car could still pass a tailpipe test. Just like everything else, the problem is more nuanced and the solution is more complex than "ban everything." The industry isn't going to get murdered, either. Things will change, and some businesses will adapt and others will choose this hill to die on.

The car community brought this crackdown upon itself. It started with the diesel retards who just wanted to roll coal all day, erryday, and vendors were perfectly happy to oblige with those requests becuz fr33 m4rkit! Looking at the hotrod side of things, we've spent decades throwing EGR valves and AIR pumps in the garbage and have let myths like "cats restrict all the horsepowerz" proliferate. To top it off, the vendors who are now posting ominous warnings of impending doom and urging everyone to buy their parts now, are the same vendors who spent years peddling exhaust components saying, "Now, this part is strictly for off-road use." WINK

And now we're all shocked Pikachu because that chicken has finally come home to roost?
 

·
Have Bar, Will Travel
Joined
·
10,248 Posts
AWW did I trigger some peoples efeelers?

You're as bad as the guys that say I'm a second amendment supporter, but...

Can you relate now? I don't care about your opinion and you have no right to tell me what I can or can't do that has no effect on you what so ever. I'm not starting the car with the exhaust blowing into your house. We should shut down all aviation it's bad for the environment...so much more than my 2000 miles a year catless ethanol burner...LOL

Have a good day sir make sure you wear your mask when you go out.
Funny I own guns and I am a second amendment supporter. Which is why I brought this up. No think hard on this. Second amendment to the constitution of the United States says" right to bear arms"

There is not an amendment nore any spot in the bill of rights for a citizen of the US of A that says "right to drive/own a car. Further nothing says right to defeat emissions or other regulations. NOT A ONe.

Let that sink in. Now I agree completely with right to repair, and I agree to many aspects of right to modify a veichle. What I don't agree with is purposely defeating emissions. And while you talk about my airplanes - they have emissions requirements too. And I will happily admit many of my planes needs to be removed and replaced. They tend to be spendy however. So other than your 2000 mile per year corn squeezin burning GTO what else do you drive.

Me I drive a emissions legal, 460RWHP 2009 Pontiac G8. That has get this 184K miles on the clock.

OH and my state says I don't have to wear a mask anymore so I don't if that triggers you too.

bullcrap. once they are done with manufacturers, there is nothing to say they won't come after individuals.

Also, just from working with the GTO, we know even aftermarket cats can set off a CEL. Car manufacturers have the resources for R&D while your small time aftermarket parts shop does not. They will either need to design parts that meet federal requirements or drown in fines.

The problem here, buddy, isn't clean air or 'ohnoweguncrycozourcarswontbeloudandwontsmellboohoo." it's going to murder the industry.
so few things there.

1) Comeing after the individuals is harder but again federal mandated pipe sniffers to get your plate will be the final end run.

2) yes I tuned cars too - yes some cats still setup a CEL and the fix was often better tuning with a wideband or a different cat. Because get this - some worked.

3) yep research and development which isn't done by Ford, GM or Honda (Yes I left out Stellantis formerly FCA). Cats for OEM use come from a few companies with CAL Sonic being number 1 it seems. So the cats on a hellcat for example seem to work well. As do the ones in a Ford GT. Why did I pick those in partiuclar. High horsepower, production legal Tier 4 veichles. Which high exhaust pressure and flow. Not the cats are bigger than some yes - and expensive. But have you looked under a C8 vette too.

Point here like aways you gotta play to play. So yes better cats exist - they aren't that proprietary and they can be made for other uses. Does that mean you might have to pay 3000 for your next header- tailpipe exhaust system. you might.

The way some people "think" and turn their heads the other way....thinking it wont affect them in some way....makes me sick. So what IF IT DOESNT AFFECT YOU...do you not care about your fellow American who built their livelihood upon racing, modding, selling parts, owning a speed shop etc.....what about those that could/will falter and lose their business? fuck em right? Dont affect you...so dont care...what a shit bag way of thinking. This shit goes WAY deeper than being discussed here.
say they do outlaw tuning. do you not think its possible they could force manufacturers to lock ecm? or force hp tuners, efi live to not do certain things OR even shut down completely?
Gee did I ever say that? No. I'm all for innovation and competition so if SW or Magnaflow or someone develops the system that is emission legal great sell the shit out of that. It doesn't mean they have to shutter their doors.

Meanwhile tuning - some manufacturers do lock the ECM and yes it's getting worse. There are more and more competitant hackers out there too - cracking those. Eventually the C8 will get cracked which I find odd it's taken this long. But look how people are working with that system today. While I don't want tuning to go away becasue I think it's beneficial for a lot of things. Not everyone knows what they are doing tuning their car - and that applies to some shops too. I would also suggest many dealers can't fix a car right either but that's a different rant.

But yes gee HP tuners might have to stop allowing turning off rear o2 sensors - OMG. the HOrror - you might have to ensure your car is emissions ready. Gee somepeople have to do that today now. Again look at the tuning and racing world in the EU.

I might go for that.
for what veichle thought you were selling your GTO? Did you get a camaro?
 

·
The Entenmann's Shim-Sham
Joined
·
12,461 Posts
Point here like aways you gotta play to play. So yes better cats exist - they aren't that proprietary and they can be made for other uses. Does that mean you might have to pay 3000 for your next header- tailpipe exhaust system. you might.
Just looking at Kooks products now for a 6th Gen, they already want $3500 for a catted exhaust system from the header flange to the exhaust tip.
 

·
Have Bar, Will Travel
Joined
·
10,248 Posts
but it works from what I understand. installed and tuned it's emissions legal even in cali if I read it right.
 

·
Have Bar, Will Travel
Joined
·
10,248 Posts
OH and other OMG moment - these will only be forward active changes.

It's not like they are going to force to put replace the cats on your modified out of production GTO. UH well gee I can't buy one of those today.

Remember here the proposal is for a sunset date. So what the DOT typically does is something like "for veichles built after 2023, the emission standard as bult must be maintained for the useful life of the veichle . .. ." Also useful life it typically 10 years after end of production for a specific model set.

Put another way the GTO useful life was over in 2016.
 

·
The Entenmann's Shim-Sham
Joined
·
12,461 Posts
but it works from what I understand. installed and tuned it's emissions legal even in cali if I read it right.
I don't believe it is legal in California because the cats are moved further down the exhaust stream.

Which, if the car is able to pass a sniffer test and be in compliance with the regulated emission levels, it shouldn't really matter. And this was just one example, and it was Kooks, who are notoriously expensive as fuck. But I won't be surprised if vendors use this as a way to fleece customers for way more cash while blaming the EPA.

"Oh, the exhaust system used to be $500, but now it is $1500 because the evil EPA made us include some spun catalytic converters that cost $200. Our hands are tied!"
 

·
Worthless reject member
Joined
·
46,624 Posts
The industry isn't going to get murdered, either. Things will change, and some businesses will adapt and others will choose this hill to die on.
it will survive in some form, is what you mean. it's not going to be a form many enthusiasts will be happy with, nor one that will offer the variety of part options that are available now. so, hyperbole for me to say murdered, sure. Will it suck and hurt the industry, definitely.

I don't believe it is legal in California because the cats are moved further down the exhaust stream.

Which, if the car is able to pass a sniffer test and be in compliance with the regulated emission levels, it shouldn't really matter. And this was just one example, and it was Kooks, who are notoriously expensive as fuck. But I won't be surprised if vendors use this as a way to fleece customers for way more cash while blaming the EPA.

"Oh, the exhaust system used to be $500, but now it is $1500 because the evil EPA made us include some spun catalytic converters that cost $200. Our hands are tied!"
and this is kind of another part of my reasoning here. moving the converter location, using a different size and type of cat with a different number of cells, could change the emissions. The EPA could be anal and simply say "needs to be an OEM replacement, done by a shop certified to do such work, or GTFO and we'll see you in court."

Venders could be fine for now just pulling "off road" systems from their shelves. For the time being we could be just fine using $200 aftermarket cats slapped on the ends of our headers in our own garages. That could change in the future.

The car community brought this crackdown upon itself. It started with the diesel retards who just wanted to roll coal all day, erryday, and vendors were perfectly happy to oblige with those requests becuz fr33 m4rkit! Looking at the hotrod side of things, we've spent decades throwing EGR valves and AIR pumps in the garbage and have let myths like "cats restrict all the horsepowerz" proliferate. To top it off, the vendors who are now posting ominous warnings of impending doom and urging everyone to buy their parts now, are the same vendors who spent years peddling exhaust components saying, "Now, this part is strictly for off-road use." WINK

And now we're all shocked Pikachu because that chicken has finally come home to roost?
i'm surprised the EPA let the test pipe thing go for as long as it did, honestly.

2) yes I tuned cars too - yes some cats still setup a CEL and the fix was often better tuning with a wideband or a different cat. Because get this - some worked.
lots didn't. they need to all work, bro. i'm not arguing if it's possible to run cats on a high performance vehicle. We all know it is.

Maybe if they agreed to waive fines in lieu of changes in product lineup and R&D for new systems, i would be ok with that.

3) yep research and development which isn't done by Ford, GM or Honda (Yes I left out Stellantis formerly FCA). Cats for OEM use come from a few companies with CAL Sonic being number 1 it seems. So the cats on a hellcat for example seem to work well. As do the ones in a Ford GT. Why did I pick those in partiuclar. High horsepower, production legal Tier 4 veichles. Which high exhaust pressure and flow. Not the cats are bigger than some yes - and expensive. But have you looked under a C8 vette too.
so, the cat converter guys designed the whole exhaust system? they did the engine calibration in the ECM, too? lemme stick some cats on the end of a tailpipe WAAAY down at the end with all of that cooled off exhaust gas and see how well they work. Again, i'm not arguing that you can't have cats on high horsepower cars, so coming from that angle is pointless with me.

Point here like aways you gotta play to play. So yes better cats exist - they aren't that proprietary and they can be made for other uses. Does that mean you might have to pay 3000 for your next header- tailpipe exhaust system. you might.
I might be ok with that. Sucks for FPFQ types who mod their cars.

I'm all for innovation and competition so if SW or Magnaflow or someone develops the system that is emission legal great sell the shit out of that. It doesn't mean they have to shutter their doors.
I am too. but, re-read what i posted above. smaller companies that design and sell exhaust systems stand to suffer. These places are already running around trying to do preemptive damage control so they don't lose tons of money. Fines will cost $$$. R&D and certification takes $$$. Small production runs mean it will take even more $$$ on the consumer end for the business to recoup their cost. You might kiss goodbye to legal systems for cars that had limited production runs.

On an upside, it may mean the end of ebay chinesium ripoffs.

But yes gee HP tuners might have to stop allowing turning off rear o2 sensors - OMG. the HOrror - you might have to ensure your car is emissions ready. Gee somepeople have to do that today now. Again look at the tuning and racing world in the EU.
wouldn't it be nice to live in california and buy an LT header system that had a carb number and you could tune without turning off your rear sensors? AFAIK you can't. they can't be ready unless they have a carb number for their shorties. F that.

for what veichle thought you were selling your GTO? Did you get a camaro?
what?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
570 Posts
AWW did I trigger some peoples efeelers?



Funny I own guns and I am a second amendment supporter. Which is why I brought this up. No think hard on this. Second amendment to the constitution of the United States says" right to bear arms"

There is not an amendment nore any spot in the bill of rights for a citizen of the US of A that says "right to drive/own a car. Further nothing says right to defeat emissions or other regulations. NOT A ONe.

Let that sink in. Now I agree completely with right to repair, and I agree to many aspects of right to modify a veichle. What I don't agree with is purposely defeating emissions. And while you talk about my airplanes - they have emissions requirements too. And I will happily admit many of my planes needs to be removed and replaced. They tend to be spendy however. So other than your 2000 mile per year corn squeezin burning GTO what else do you drive.

Me I drive a emissions legal, 460RWHP 2009 Pontiac G8. That has get this 184K miles on the clock.

OH and my state says I don't have to wear a mask anymore so I don't if that triggers you too.



so few things there.

1) Comeing after the individuals is harder but again federal mandated pipe sniffers to get your plate will be the final end run.

2) yes I tuned cars too - yes some cats still setup a CEL and the fix was often better tuning with a wideband or a different cat. Because get this - some worked.

3) yep research and development which isn't done by Ford, GM or Honda (Yes I left out Stellantis formerly FCA). Cats for OEM use come from a few companies with CAL Sonic being number 1 it seems. So the cats on a hellcat for example seem to work well. As do the ones in a Ford GT. Why did I pick those in partiuclar. High horsepower, production legal Tier 4 veichles. Which high exhaust pressure and flow. Not the cats are bigger than some yes - and expensive. But have you looked under a C8 vette too.

Point here like aways you gotta play to play. So yes better cats exist - they aren't that proprietary and they can be made for other uses. Does that mean you might have to pay 3000 for your next header- tailpipe exhaust system. you might.



Gee did I ever say that? No. I'm all for innovation and competition so if SW or Magnaflow or someone develops the system that is emission legal great sell the shit out of that. It doesn't mean they have to shutter their doors.

Meanwhile tuning - some manufacturers do lock the ECM and yes it's getting worse. There are more and more competitant hackers out there too - cracking those. Eventually the C8 will get cracked which I find odd it's taken this long. But look how people are working with that system today. While I don't want tuning to go away becasue I think it's beneficial for a lot of things. Not everyone knows what they are doing tuning their car - and that applies to some shops too. I would also suggest many dealers can't fix a car right either but that's a different rant.

But yes gee HP tuners might have to stop allowing turning off rear o2 sensors - OMG. the HOrror - you might have to ensure your car is emissions ready. Gee somepeople have to do that today now. Again look at the tuning and racing world in the EU.



for what veichle thought you were selling your GTO? Did you get a camaro?
Go back and read all of your comments and you may realize how condescending you've been toward everyone else here since the beginning. You keep speaking to me and others in a tone to suggest we are inferior in an arrogant effort to suggest only your opinion matters.

This resulted in a certain tone in response now you are upset and escalate your condescension.

You aren't the only gun owner here and aren't the only one to ever fight the 2nd amendment fight. I've been on the door steps protesting at my state capitol many years ago for gun rights this isn't anything new to me. I've competed in long range competitions as well doing my own reloading and gun work. Since you are so much more intelligent than any of the rest of us you should have fully understood my point when I said...

You are as bad as the people that say they support the second amendment, but...

...unfortunately it went right over your head.

You say you are an auto enthusiast, but you are ok with some restrictions that don't effect you personally or that you don't care about.

The problem is they don't stop there, they never do and you know this. It's like the boiling frog...first they put limits on magazines, then they limit accessories, then they ban this type of gun, then they ban that type of gun, and before you know it you're cooked.

Are you going to back pedal on how strong a gun supporter you are now like you are on the auto side. I mean it's only a catalytic converter and certainly they will not go further than that next time right? I mean we could go back to when the constitution was written and certainly they didn't have semi auto's in mind right? Do you only have black powder rifles now?

We are gaining constitutional carry here in Iowa and while we haven't led the way in the country we've been working hard over here so don't think this isn't the first battle I've fought with government regulations. We haven't even talked about the enforcement side of this and state's rights as we don't enforce the current regulations. Things sold as "off road use only" are very common it's on almost every part we buy whether it's a set of heads, cam, intake, exhaust, all of it. Yet we commonly install them on street driven vehicles. These 1000+ horse power vehicles you seem to hate because you don't have the ability to build one yourself are also such a small part of the overall volume of street use that they aren't nearly as responsible for the amount of emissions you want to believe they are.

As far as high mileage vehicles... again you make an ass out of yourself by assuming things. I've only bought one brand new car in my life it was my first 2004 GTO in January of '04 I went 10.2x with that car and sold it in 2008. We have four vehicles currently and paid cash for all of them. We aren't rich we only buy what we can afford so nothing fancy. I do all the work on all the vehicles which between our 3 regular vehicles and the GTO which is just a toy it has saved us thousands of dollars over the years. Many thousands actually as mechanics charge $125 an hour labor. I think my work truck only has 182,000 on it currently so you've got me beat there. It's a 2011 gmc sierra slt nothing fancy, but I got it for 10,500 so super cheap. It's super clean and rust free so the mileage wasn't a concern knowing I can fix anything that goes wrong with it myself. Lets not act like 460 rwhp is a big accomplishment either...LOL. I've known people with 5.3's over 200,000 that made over 1000 rwhp lasting multiple seasons drag racing them which is obviously way harder on parts than just daily driving it without ever actually racing it.

So yes taking away my right to fix things myself will cost my family thousands of dollars. I do find it funny the condescending members here ran off most of the intelligent mechanically inclined folks as well as most of the people that actually brought GTO specific parts to the community.

At the end of the day I will not be complying and find ways around this one way or another and I'm not sorry that it hurts your feelings.
 

·
Have Bar, Will Travel
Joined
·
10,248 Posts
K

I've not name called nor used any phrasing like "your as bad as the people that . . . . . ." nor I have directed to anyone. That I recall.

Condescending perhaps but I came in here to a boat load of wharbagable and lack of facts about the state of affairs. Yes on one hand I agree erosion of freedoms but unlike the gun right issue - this isn't protected in any way in the bill of rights. That alone is the first big hurdle here.

Thing is I disagree with the idea of defeating emissions standards. Hell there's lot of car mods I think should be illegal on public streets because it's unsafe. but I'm also an advocate for DL based on ability so that like a CDL you could get rated for a veichle. If your car meets certain braking, handling requirements and you pass the test for the rating, you get to use the far left fast lane and legally roll 120. I'd be all over that. Won't happen but wouldn't it be nice.

regardless - enjoy what you have and be wary of the new car you buy next. any car sold after 2012 has a on board data recorder attached to the airbag control module. I know people still say it's a myth - some car makers now mention it in the manual (my 2016 ford exploder has a paragarph on it).

It cannot be turned off by the way and depending on the car removing the airbag module prevents engine start up.

oh and another bit - I think it's a shame what they did to remington arms.
 

·
The Entenmann's Shim-Sham
Joined
·
12,461 Posts
it will survive in some form, is what you mean. it's not going to be a form many enthusiasts will be happy with, nor one that will offer the variety of part options that are available now. so, hyperbole for me to say murdered, sure. Will it suck and hurt the industry, definitely.
There would be a correction period, sure. This community has always been quick with the doom and gloom scenarios. I remember back in 09-10 when everyone was bitching about increased CAFE standards and how Obama was destroying the industry. Yet, here we are with Hellcats and GT350s and ZL1s and whatnot.

The same time period also saw a lot of well-known vendors close up shop due to the economy. Once again, the end was nigh. Once again, here we are with more options than ever before for LS swaps, standalone fuel injection, turbochargers, superchargers, et al.


and this is kind of another part of my reasoning here. moving the converter location, using a different size and type of cat with a different number of cells, could change the emissions. The EPA could be anal and simply say "needs to be an OEM replacement, done by a shop certified to do such work, or GTFO and we'll see you in court."

Venders could be fine for now just pulling "off road" systems from their shelves. For the time being we could be just fine using $200 aftermarket cats slapped on the ends of our headers in our own garages. That could change in the future.
And this is why the car community and SEMA should try to work with the EPA instead of taking the all-or-nothing approach. Right now, the general rule is that the vehicle is supposed to retain all of the emissions equipment that came with the car from the factory. I don't think that needs to necessarily be the case. If the engine is able to meet the required HC/NOx emission levels without the use of an EGR valve or an AIR pump, then I don't see why such equipment should be mandated to be installed on the car just because it happened to be there 30 years ago. The same would go for cat placement. If installing long tube headers, and effectively moving the cats further down from the factory location, doesn't put the tailpipe emission levels out of compliance, then it shouldn't be an issue.

Both sides need to re-evaluate their approach to this issue, because this whole "don't tell me what to do with mah property" approach is just retarded and it certainly isn't going to win anyone in the EPA over.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
464 Posts
Same thing happened with diesels a couple years ago and everyone got all scared/worried about dpf deletes, erg deletes, etc. Look now, all these parts and tuners are available again.
 

·
Worthless reject member
Joined
·
46,624 Posts
Right now, the general rule is that the vehicle is supposed to retain all of the emissions equipment that came with the car from the factory. I don't think that needs to necessarily be the case. If the engine is able to meet the required HC/NOx emission levels without the use of an EGR valve or an AIR pump, then I don't see why such equipment should be mandated to be installed on the car just because it happened to be there 30 years ago. The same would go for cat placement. If installing long tube headers, and effectively moving the cats further down from the factory location, doesn't put the tailpipe emission levels out of compliance, then it shouldn't be an issue.

Both sides need to re-evaluate their approach to this issue, because this whole "don't tell me what to do with mah property" approach is just retarded and it certainly isn't going to win anyone in the EPA over.
agreed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
598 Posts
Everyone loves to hate on California's smog laws, but we at least have a common-sense means of installing aftermarket parts on cars and staying within the laws. If you want to sell parts for emissions-controlled parts, you have to apply for an EO number. Part of that process is strict testing to make sure that the part does not worsen pollution from the vehicle. I have a Magnusson M112 supercharger kit that is approved by the State. I can take the car to any smog check facility, provide the exemption information, and the car is inspected and approved.

We also have a system where a state referee evaluates engine swaps to ensure that they are operating as intended. For example, you can install later year engines from the same manufacturer into earlier cars. A friend did this with a 1987 Trans Am that has an LS1 from a 2002 Trans Am. There is a plate on the door sill stating that the car must be tested and pass the smog test for a 2002 Trans Am. All of the smog equipment must be in place and functional (cats, evap, EGR, AIR, and so on). They physically check all of this stuff.

Anything that deletes or moves the factory cats has long been illegal nationwide on street-driven cars. California won't let companies ship long-tube headers to California addresses, not even if you cross you heart and hope to die that it's for a race car.

The problem is that the RPM act doesn't establish a way for people to permanently remove a car from ever being registered or driven on the street. If you say the parts are for a race car, then you need to be able to demonstrate that you have one. I think a branded title that says "RACE CAR - NOT TO BE DRIVEN ON PUBLIC ROADS" would be fine. You have that, you can do what you want to the car.

In reality, people want to play the game of saying it's a race car while still driving it on the street and breaking the pollution laws. It's one or the other. Either do it legally or make it a race car and never drive it on the street.

By the way, the argument of privilege vs. right is a personal pet peeve. Everyone has the innate right to do as they please. We as a society agree that having people doing as they please is a recipe for disaster. So, we institute a government that can restrict rights and instill some sense of order. The fundamental idea is that people hold all the rights, and permit the government to restrict them. When you call it a privilege, you imply that the government is allowing you to take actions and ultimately holds the power. People hold the power in our system of government.
 
41 - 60 of 65 Posts
Top